28 Years Fighting for Education Access — What Every Mission Leader Needs to Hear | Ethan Logan

[0:16]  Welcome back to another episode here on the Heart and Housle Podcast. What's up, Ethan? How you doing today, man?

[0:21]  I'm doing well, sir. How are you?

[0:23]  I'm doing amazing, man. We're gonna get straight into it. We spoke already before. You told me you were in higher ed now for 28 years.

[0:30]  I mean, student affairs in Texas, two decades at Texas Tech, VP, if I'm not mistaken, at Western Kentucky, and now you're in New England, man, at the University of Hartford. Most people pick a lane and stay in it. What kept you kind of pulling to the next thing and always wanting to be talented?

[0:47]  It was a sum total of a lot of different things. I am interested in higher education, and I have been blessed to have been given opportunities at different institutions to continue to explore my craft and to really advocate for education overall. I spent a majority of my time in Texas, my home state, and I truly enjoy and love Texas. But I also felt like, you know, the world's a big place, and I don't know if I want to live just in one place my whole life. So I took a chance and moved to Kentucky for a couple years, which was a lovely experience. It's a beautiful state with fantastic people. And now I get to experience New England, someplace that I've always wanted to spend time and explore. The University of Hartford was a wonderful opportunity for me to add that to my professional portfolio but also experience another part of this great country.

[1:48]  So it was an easy yes when the opportunity arose.

[1:51]  It was an easy yes, and I was particularly impressed by both this institution and its president. Lawrence Ward is the president here at the University of Hartford, and his vision and leadership inspired me and convinced me to take a chance on Connecticut.

[2:15]  I love that, man. And you've always been in higher ed in this space, or were you ever like in the corporate world?

[2:21]  I did a brief stint in the corporate world, you know, dipped my toe in the corporate experience, which was a lot of fun. I got the opportunity to work for Deloitte, which is one of the largest companies globally, and they're a fantastic organization. I truly enjoyed my time with them. But higher education's what I know and what I subscribe to, so I had the chance to get back in and do a little bit with that. Watch out for some wild phone calls coming in while we have this conversation.

[2:55]  Hey man, listen. I'm just honored to even have this conversation with you now because I know how busy you are. So, I definitely appreciate it.

[3:02]  I appreciate the time. Now, it's pretty cool, you know, for you to... We always talk about passion and purpose. Clearly, you have the passion and purpose for what you do. What got you into it, though? You left high school knowing this is where my passion was going to take me, or life got you here. What happened?

[3:18]  Not at all. The beautiful thing about working in higher ed is that some people have a path, and some people know their path. You'll find that mostly in terms of the faculty. Those people who are immersed in their discipline and are so focused on that that they continue to evolve in research and grow in the knowledge base, and are also compelled to teach it. That's a wonderful way to go about approaching this work. But if you're in administration like me, there's no degree in administration as an undergrad. I was working on campus when I was in college, pursuing my degree, trying to figure out what I was going to do.

[4:08]  I missed a chance to go to law school. I thought I was going to go to law school. So I missed a chance to meet the cohort deadline. Law schools were a little more strict about what your timing was when you could start. And so I missed a cohort that would have been immediately after graduating. So I knew I'd have to wait a year to get into law school. I didn't know what I wanted to do. I had an English degree, which I love, but I didn't have a teaching certificate to go with that. And as often is the case when you're in liberal arts, you're like, "What do I do with a liberal arts degree?" There's not a sign that says "English majors wanted." So I took the time to do a graduate program in higher education that was particularly designed to help people who are going to be working in two-year community college settings. It was credentialing, but it was also talking about how the higher education enterprise works.

[4:58]  That's how I started, and I didn't realize that the work I was doing as an undergrad, you know, I was a student assistant in a student activities office and I was a night manager in the student union office. I didn't realize that those are full-time professions, and they have a passion about their work. Stepping into that role of that graduate education experience was reinforced with the fact that I was doing the work alongside those people who have made this their profession of choice. It really resonated, and it made my graduate experience so meaningful because the courses that I took in the evenings and the philosophy and the psychology and the pedagogy, the things that I was learning in those evening classes made sense every day when I went in to work as a graduate assistant, working with college students. It was a great experience.

[6:19]  Yeah, no, I hear it a lot. People say, "I didn't even know this title existed before I got it."

[6:25]  For sure. And then this grows and it grows on the opportunities. Like I said, I worked for 20 years at Texas Tech University, and that's my alma mater. Texas Tech University was exceptional. It still is an exceptional institution, but to me, they gave me a wonderful opportunity to grow as a professional. I was blessed and fortunate enough at that institution to consistently have opportunities for growth and development along my professional career path. That's one of the reasons why they kept me around for 20 years. I learned the ropes at Texas Tech.

[7:03]  Yeah, you're good, man. Especially that you kind of grew up on the streets over there.

[7:08]  That's right. It's my home. It's my hometown. I mean, I didn't get far.

[7:13]  Yeah, man. That is so cool. So, you probably seen a lot of friends come and go to the school. Did you have family that went to the school as well?

[7:22]  I did. Both of my parents did post-graduate work there. In fact, my grandmother did her master's degree there. So, it is an institution that has a lot of family history for us.

[7:36]  Wow. Yeah, man. That's actually really cool, man. To know that you even had a piece of you that school for the time that you have been there, you were able to kind of give back. Thinking about you when you were in college, obviously very different today, but what are some of the things that you probably had challenges with at that time and says, "Hey, if I can fix this, I would fix it," that maybe you feel like we've really gotten tightened this up here or maybe you've implemented some of these changes?

[8:04]  You bet. The thing that I learned from my experience as a student and then the other side of that coin being a professional working with college students was I learned the value not just of the education. I mean, of course, that's the fundamental experience that we're trying to promote and support for a student: that classroom experience with that faculty and that expression and generation of knowledge and ideas and learning and application. But the thing that is a parallel and I think is vitally important for any college student, and I'd say this to every college student that I talk to, is to look at an engagement with the institution. I use that term very broadly because sometimes that's the classroom, sometimes that's a connection you have with a faculty member, and sometimes that's outside the classroom. That's an extracurricular activity, could be a student organization, it could be the residence hall floor you live in, and the intramural team you play on. Anything that builds these connections with you as a student to the institution, to the student body, to the faculty, immeasurably helps the students' progress and success.

[9:20]  I mean, it doesn't do the studying for you; you still have to do the studying. But when you have that investment in the institution more than just a transaction, it's your community. When it becomes your community, you have this intrinsic investment within it that supports you in that process to be successful. It keeps you motivated to do that extra studying or to make sure you show up to class because doing so continues to invest in you. So student engagement is the thing that I took away from it. That's the foundation of what we talk about in student affairs. That's where I started: student engagement is a very powerful contributor to the students' overall success.

[10:08]  And you left it on students just now. One of the things that you mentioned that I've really appreciated was you used the phrase of "fertilizing the future."

[10:29]  Yeah.

[10:31]  What did you come up with? If you could kind of expand on what that actually is. What does that mean to you?

[10:36]  I think that that's our role in education. I mean, and that's across the whole K through 12 to K through 16 and beyond. Fertilizing the future of our country and American culture is lifted through education. As we contribute to and support people's growth intellectually, cognitively, socially, psychosocially, we're enhancing the opportunities that they have to be both successful and to be successful for their families, but also their contributions to our communities. We build a stronger foundation and greater opportunity across all of our professions, the disciplines, but also our communities and our civic engagement when we enhance what we do with education. The more people understand about the world and the conditions that people live in and the opportunities that they have or the lack thereof, the more that we learn about the challenges we have in the civic arrangement that we have, the American cultural experience, and the ways that we can enhance that, make it better for everybody. That's the foundation, which I think is a truism and a pillar of what the American cultural experience is or can be and should be.

[12:08]  I always love the way that you just put it together when we spoke about college and really giving it a different meaning, right, that people don't talk about. That was one fertilizing the future. Absolutely. But also the transition from that 18 to 24 year old, right? The growth that's happening at that moment and what a college university actually does for the mindset, right? Being able to be okay to fail, being able to change, you know, and have that guidance, right? Community, you know, the transition from... No one ever told me, the transition from high school to not going to school, you go from all these friends to like all gone, right?

[12:49]  Like the transition to going to college becomes a little easier. But, you know, I think there are so many ways that people could really talk about college, and you just say it's so good. Why is that 18 to 24 also so important? And what are people missing out on? Just hey, something you also mentioned was like you can spend $28,000 on a car. How far would that get you?

[13:11]  But if you spend $28,000 on a degree, now we're talking about seeing a double, triple income. You lose value in a car, man. But your value and knowledge you never lose.

[13:20]  True. I think you put it wonderfully just now. This is an investment that has a great return in terms of what higher education provides. So let me back up and talk to those a couple of comments that you made because they're perfect. One thing about the traditional age approach to higher education is that the student who graduates from high school and then becomes enrolled that successive term, they're probably 18 years old. That 18 to 24 year old, you know, average time to degree or the optimal time to degree is four years. That's the way it's designed. This period of time is actually still very impactful and is a very important part of a person's growth and development. The mind is still in development and growth in this period of time. The wonderful thing about it is that we're reinforcing that growth and maturity of the physiological mind experience and the psychological experience that a person has in this education community. We're enhancing that based on the idea of addressing the cultivation of knowledge and applying that knowledge to solve problems. If I want to distill it down to that, that's what we're doing. We're teaching people a wonderful tool and talent that is cross-discipline across professions: the idea to be able to think and to decide and to make decisions in a structured manner.

[15:11]  Now, successive to that is what you were talking about in terms of the community. I think the foundation of what we have done in the American higher education community throughout our evolution is to build a safe space in terms of what an institution of higher education is. On the capacity of the expansion and growth of new knowledge and ideas, what we do through the course of that process is we cultivate the next generation. We teach the next generation who's going to carry that forward. Our faculty and these people who are involved in the development of the disciplines, the research and development design of application, we're here together to build the growth of knowledge to expand the frontier of what we know and what we can do. We bring students into that to help with that process to both learn as it grows along but to pass the torch on to them so that they will continue to take it down the road. We do that in a structured manner and in such a way that we bring people together in a safe space. When I say a safe space, I mean our goal is for it to be physically safe. But more importantly, it's a safe space in terms of the expression of ideas. What my perspective is growing up, my experiences, the sum of who I am today, the work that I've done, my ancestral heritage, all of these things contribute to what I know. And what you know and what you've experienced in your life growing and coming up to this conversation today is similar but also unique. The beautiful thing about it is as we discuss, as we have this conversation right now, we're exchanging ideas based on two different perspectives. By contributing those together in dialogue, in conversation, and in growth, and an open consideration to different perspectives and ideas, we're enhancing the pool of potential. That's the beautiful thing about how we conduct our education. When I say it's a safe space, I mean it's safe for different ideas and perspectives, for the diversity of experience and of life, and of challenges and of successes and failures. We can bring those all together and we can use those collectively. That's the synergy of education. It's really a powerful piece because what I know, I may come up with some new ideas. I may come up with some new theories. But truly, when I'm engaged in conversations with my peers and with other people about what I'm trying to do, there's going to be inevitably a perspective that I never knew or even acknowledged. It's still important to me today that I'm open to that because I'm learning alongside just everybody else.

[18:06]  Ethan, I'm just here laughing to myself because first of all, you're so good. Like, so the whole time that you're talking, I'm tuned in, you know, and I'm like, I can see one that he could have been a teacher if he just got the teacher certification because he's just here dropping knowledge. And two, you could have been a good lawyer because you sold me on everything you just said.

[18:24]  That's very kind. I appreciate that.

[18:25]  Thank you.

[18:26]  No, man. It makes so much sense, and I really appreciate the way that you see it and the way that you break it down because I don't know that it was ever really given to me in that perspective. Right. Until the first time that we spoke, and I'm like, man, when you really put it like I'm a numbers guy, so when you sit here and say, "Hey Ephrain, you can spend $28,000 on a car that loses value or $28,000 on a degree that you're going to see the ROI," like which one makes sense? Of course this one makes sense. Now, is school for everybody? No. But I think even as you mentioned just getting those pieces of nuggets that you may need to take you to the next level in your job, your current job is in life, you know, and not understanding what every moment that you get to meet somebody and learn from somebody is being poured into you. There are things good you take from it and also some bad that you may leave, but you don't know if you're just never getting to these groups, and that's why we have networking events. This is why we have mixers because people look for that camaraderie, per se. And that's just some of the best places to have it where you guys all learn from one another, where you guys all have the same mission. It's getting better, right? Like, how cool is it when we all 20,000 people in the same university want the same mission? We want to succeed.

[19:49]  It's contagious. The energy is contagious. I would actually ask, though, one of the things I've been hearing from higher ed is that obviously we're seeing a drop-off, right? Whether it's life lifting, whether people are now thinking that I'm going to go be an influencer instead, right? Like, that's the easy way. How are we engaging those folks to continue to... I think about I was just having one of the discovery calls that I had with someone, and I said, you know, I am actually that student now that I think about it that has two classes to finish an associate's degree. But you know what? No one was saying, "Hey Ephrain, come on man, what are you doing?" No one re-engaged. Do you think that there's some disconnect there?

[20:33]  For sure. Completion, I think, is exceptionally important. I appreciate that. One of the things that we try to do in higher education more and more so is to look to those students who have not completed and try to bring them back in for completion and give them credit for the work and the experience that they have. That's a whole other tangent because to go back to your comments and the conversation direction that you were leading me towards is to think about what is the value of education today and what is it about. We've talked philosophically about what the value of education is today, and that is the betterment of the person, of the self. It's the growth and development of the mind, and that's a powerful tool because you take it with you wherever you go. Even two courses short of what your experience may have been in your institution, that's still an investment that you carry with you and what you learned in those experiences.

[22:09]  So that's a powerful thing, and the beautiful thing about education is it compounds. It compounds fiscally, but it also compounds culturally and sociologically. What I mean by that is that not only is it a tool that you take with you that is portable and consistent with you going forward, it is enriching and invigorating to the person who receives the education. It's beneficial to their family. Specifically, you know, fiscally, people who graduate with degrees in higher education earn on average over the lifetime of their career approximately between a high school student and a bachelor’s student approaching $2 million over the lifetime of their career of earnings. What happens is that high school graduates who immediately enter into the job pool start with a quick rise in terms of earning because they went from zero to something.

[22:55]  But what happens is that that salary tends to plateau. A person who takes four years off of the job market to get their degree is at a deficit in terms of time earning over time. They accelerate equally when they start out in terms of earnings, but they tend to climb higher in terms of earning potential. So what does that mean? That means the immediate result is over the course of your career, you're going to earn more money with a college degree. That's still true today. And I know that there are some people who question that, but that's still quantifiably validated expression. And then secondly, that is impactful to the person. It's impactful to their family, the quality of life, what they can do, and what their experiences look like. But it also is enriching as we look at further generations. One of the hardest populations of students to begin college are first-generation college students because they haven't had that experience, and nobody in their family has had that experience about approaching college. So there's some trepidation or apprehension just because it's unknown. But once you have had a first-generation college student, then that next generation is easier to approach higher education because that first generation understands how it works, understands how to do it, and sees the value for it, and they pass that on.

[24:30]  When we think about a person's experience in life and the earning potential that they can have through continued education, then not only have we changed their condition for their experience now, but we've changed that condition going forward for the legacy of their family that follows. It's a powerful tool because it's a multiple investment to the person and to the family and to the future. That's where we give back.

[25:15]  Higher education today gets a lot of criticism right now, and I think that that's probably cyclical, but it also is something that is happening and we're seeing today. We're seeing a kind of a reservation of participation in higher education for two reasons. One, because of the population shift. You may have heard in media or discussion there's a term that we use called the enrollment cliff. That's an expression of just the population of people in our country. The recession of 2008 slowed down the birth rate of citizens in our country understandably because there was a financial exigency that affected a lot of people, a lot of families. People were like, "Now's not the time to have children." So we're seeing the result of that: a slowing down of our birth rate. We see that expression in this generation of college students who are approaching higher education. That's one thing that's challenging us right now.

[26:46]  The other one is the concern over cost in terms of what it looks like to be in education. So I'll tell you about those two really quickly. The enrollment cliff, yes, that's true. There's a true value in terms of the total population of people who are going to be participating in higher education, and that's okay. I mean, that's just the rhythm of the population in our country. We can address that a couple of ways, and one of the most important ways, in my opinion, is though there may be fewer people approaching higher education, we can counteract that difference in terms of volume by increasing the participation rate.

[27:31]  When we look at the participation rate of students who are coming out of high school and who would be a traditionally aged student approaching higher education, we can do more by increasing participation in higher education to enhance that enrollment and to counteract that volume difference. I think, like I said, I believe that the content and the data supports the investment. We just need to as a society continue to encourage that and to continue to supplement that so that it's successful.

[28:44]  Higher education is an expensive endeavor, and I appreciate that. But it's an expensive endeavor for the right reasons. I say that because we look at not just the physical infrastructure that is a campus, but we look at the people that we're asking to be the people who teach and the people who administer and run these institutions. We want the best and the brightest people to be our faculty members, to be the people who are teaching the next generation. We need to pay those people appropriately. I think that we underpay teachers across all levels and disciplines.

[27:54]  But that's okay. It's not okay, but it's the state we're in. There's a cost associated with it. There's a cost associated with the people who keep this place open and keep the lights on and keep the functions functioning. Whether that's the grounds and maintenance, whether that's the security, whether that's the people who do room and board and hospitality, whether it's guys like me who sit in an office with a blank wall because I'm new here and haven't put anything up yet. But we spend time on a computer crunching numbers and thinking about how we can invite people to participate in higher education. Those things are costs, and those are market values that are pretty consistent and probably a little bit lower than what you would see in private industry.

[29:44]  When we look at the costs that are associated with that, that's what people are paying for, and we try to reduce that cost to the least burden that we can put on students. In private institutions like mine, particularly, we look at ways that we can provide support, whether that's through scholarships, tuition discounts, and anything that we can do to try to reduce the cost as a burden or obstacle to people to participate. We get by on the slimmest of margins, and that's the way we do it. We're nonprofit, but that's what we're here for. We're not here to make money; we're here to do it right and do it as efficiently and effectively as possible.

[29:25]  I love this, man. I love the way you broke it down. Even just now, just thinking about it, I'm a bit, you know, again, back to numbers. I love data. So, you started to break it down like, "Well, while this may cost this much, this person has to be paid. This has to be done. This has to be upkept." If you want a good environment, we have to also be able to afford that and make sure that we can teach you with the best of the best. So yeah, I think all that definitely makes sense and sometimes may go over somebody's head when they...

[30:03]  Of course. Yeah, I completely get that.

[30:05]  Yeah. Listen, as we start wrapping up, man, I really want to talk to those that may just feel like this is not even an option for them. I think the first time I spoke to you, I told you I grew up thinking that college wasn't even an option for me, right? I was literally told that school wasn't for me. There are so many students out there that probably self-select out before they even apply. What do we lose when that happens? And how do we help those individuals just because you got so much education? I think sometimes people are afraid because of what someone said. How do we help those that are afraid to even ask, get that answer?

[30:32]  Yeah. There are more than one way to approach education, and so I think that we often get stuck with the idea that there's only one way to do it and that it has to be at a four-year institution and it's going to be a full freight cost to me and there's no way that I could even approach that. Or that I don't know if I have the intellectual background in terms of my teaching and experience or even how well I performed in high school to be qualified. The beautiful thing about our American higher education system is we provide multiple pathways to experience and education.

[31:11]  Some of that is even non-degree. Some of that is micro-credential or credentialed certificates, for example. There's lots of ways to consume education. These investments continue to provide propelling a person forward professionally. As you learn skills and you can apply skills, you become a more valuable employee, you see promotion, you see new opportunities and so forth, or you change careers altogether. These are all enriched by the credential, and I'll use that collectively because it's all the credential that we can provide, and that is just to say that we verify that you experienced and learned these skills.

[32:00]  The traditional four-year approach is a valuable approach specifically when I talk about that idea of cognitive development and what's going to happen for a student in this experience. However, there are great other ways to do it. There's a two-year approach to higher education, and that is to say, "I'm going to go on an associate's path." That's a quicker pathway to a degree and a credential. The beautiful thing about our two-year system is it has a branch. It says, "Do you want to go on a college track? Do you want to do a college degree track or do you want to do a workforce trade development track?" The beautiful thing about that is especially today, our workforce and our skilled labor sets are highly paid professionals, and they do very well for themselves and their families.

[32:46]  So we don't have just the traditional four-year approach; we have a two-year approach. We have different ways to provide support and service for that. In terms of financing education, the federal government has long been and continues to be, despite some challenges in terms of the ways we're structuring loan programs, strong federal support in terms of federal financial aid for students to participate in higher education, those who are in need and those who just need assistance. We have Pell grants for those students who are of the lowest economic capability of participation, and even those families who do have the funds to participate. There are loan programs and federal loan programs designed for them to help ease the burden of what that would cost out of pocket.

[33:33]  We have those federal groups. We have state programs across the majority of our states in the United States. We have great programs that are in tandem with our federal programs, both need-based and merit-based in terms of academic performance. We have a great number of philanthropic and charitable organizations and industries across the country who also contribute to the growth and development of new participation in higher education. So when you think about that obstacle, that door that looks big and heavy and there's no way I can afford to get in, I promise you there are different ways that we can find to help a student get an education today.

[34:09]  It's a combination of all those things. We just keep adding to the till in terms of what we can add up and find a way to do it because we'll find a way to make to get a student here. It's not always at Hartford; you know, that's my job. My job is to make everybody come to Hartford. It's a fantastic school.

[34:34]  But that said, to me, the most important thing is participation in higher education. I'm biased, and of course I think the University of Hartford is fantastic, but I promise you any choice in higher education is a good choice.

[34:48]  Ethan, for president! I mean, at this point, let's go, you know.

[34:51]  Thank you.

[34:52]  Ethan, what is your long-term goal, man? You kind of fell into this world. I can imagine that you took different roles as you got to the seat that you're in today, but have you ever thought of the bigger picture, or are you just kind of riding the wave, man, wherever it takes you?

[35:06]  You know, I don't know why I got into enrollment management, to tell you the truth. Because it's terribly stressful work. But that said, to me, I have really grown to appreciate the opportunities that higher education provides. Our responsibility to being strong and conscientious stewards of this role and responsibility. To me, trying to find a way for an institution to be successful and self-sufficient so that we're not a burden and that we don't close because those are two things that challenge some of our institutions of higher education today. Some of us are very well structured. Some of us have many years of growth and development in terms of endowment to support our operations, or we're a large public institution that has the full support of the state alongside federal programs.

[36:41]  Then there are some out here who are smaller and more niche in terms of our service and opportunity. Some of those are public, some of those are private. We're just trying to make sure that we do it right, that we provide the best education that we can, and that we are self-sufficient so that we can continue to do this long after I'm gone. My aspirations in higher education, it's a wonderful question because I'm 28 years in, and I've just now accepted the fact that this is my choice of profession. For a while there, I was like, "Is this really what I'm going to do now?" So I'm trying to get better at it every day and to understand it not just from the role that I serve but how an institution is successful, how an institution's healthy, and that we continue to do that so that our students are in a good place and that they have a great experience so that our faculty have the resources and the comforts that they need to be successful and to grow.

[37:20]  That's for the people who wrap around this institution to make it successful. Those people who are seen and unseen that they have the support they can so they can be successful in their work because when we all are in line and we're all in sync, then some wonderful experiences happen and some lives are changed for the better.

[37:47]  Yeah man, almost 33 decades. You definitely... this is your calling. This is your passion. This is your purpose. I mean, just listening to you can tell that there's nothing but love. You talked about the stressfulness of maybe some days of it, but I can imagine the reward is every single student that you've helped cross that line, right? That's what we do it for, man. It's not about the money, but when we can see that we've helped somebody else make a difference in their own lives, our lives are changed because of that. Because we realize, "Oh man, I made the world a better place."

[38:05]  For sure.

[38:05]  Because of it.

[38:06]  Yeah. And in a month, I'm going to be sitting on the stage watching all these people walk across, turn their tassel, take their diploma, and watch the future just completely open up in front of them.

[38:10]  That fertilization that we talked about, right, is going on in the world.

[38:12]  That's right. They're going to bloom.

[38:13]  Coming from Hartford at that.

[38:14]  Exactly.

[38:15]  Ethan, man, we thank you so much for the time, man. You really have dropped so much information on higher ed and for the way that we should look at higher ed. I don't know that everyone gives it the way that you give it, so I really did appreciate that. Where can people find more information? What is the website for Hartford? Are you guys on social so people can kind of see that lifestyle as well?

[38:32]  Of course. Yes. You can find us at hartford.edu. You'll find Hartford on all of the social channels, Facebook, Instagram, LinkedIn. You can find us in all those places. You can find me there, and know that the Hartford Hawks are here to support higher education, and we would love to have more people soar with us.

[39:01]  We appreciate your time. If you guys are still watching, make sure you do like, subscribe, and comment. These are the conversations that I really enjoy because it allows us to see the resources that are in our own backyard. Sometimes we ask ourselves how do we get to the next level? It's really educating yourself, sometimes finding out information that may be in joining Hartford so you can continue that long journey of success. But we thank you here at the Heart and Housle Podcast. We'll catch you on the next one. My name is Ephrain, this is Ethan.

[39:28]  Thank you.