43,000 People Saved Because One CEO Hit Rock Bottom

0:00 if I wanted to help myself, I should help somebody else. And with that sort of opening and that thought, I got asked by a friend of my brothers if I would meet with a guy on the Dallas Cowboys,
0:09 which is my team. And uh his wife, I went and met with Derek and Emma. And Emma's brother had died in Afghanistan.
0:15 He was a Marine. And they wanted to start a nonprofit and they asked for my help. And I started helping them. And every two weeks, someone would call me and say, "I heard you help veterans
0:23 groups. Can you help us?" And I had no military experience. I had no understanding of that world. But the one thing I did understand was suffering and struggle and suicidality. And I believe
0:32 deeply in in order to sustainably help other people, right? I run a nonprofit.
0:36 It's grown a lot. We have 85 people who work here, 86 people who work here. So it's a lot. There's a lot of responsibilities, a lot of obligations, a lot of challenges we get to deal with.
0:44 And so I think one of the things that's really really important is to take care of yourself. And so like for me it's having a routine. And you know what
0:52 that's about for me is I wake up, I meditate every day, I I engage in gratitude, I work out and move my body and and from that point forward, after maybe the first two hours of the day,
1:02 then the rest of that day is for everybody else. But if I don't do those things, um if I'm sleepd deprived, if I'm not moving, if I'm not meditating,
1:10 then I don't have the patience and the calm and the energy that's required to bring all my talents and skills to bear.
1:18 So I think about it like it's like a flame, right? And part of what helps the flame certainly is helping other people,
1:23 but you can certainly burn out. And John John Lewis, the amazing civil rights activist, congressman, he said, "Be a pilot light, not a firecracker.
1:46 Welcome back to an episode here on the Heart Hustle Podcast. Listen, I'm super excited because we started this conversation already on the right foot.
1:53 You talking about wrestling, so it got me excited. I asked you Josh, before we even get started, people get to know who you are. What is that one thing that you like that no one knows that you like?
2:03 Wow, that's a heck of a question.
2:05 Probably fiction books because I think I get tagged with the idea that all I read is non-fiction, leadership, memoirs, and things like that. So, I'm down for some
2:13 good novels and fiction. And I was just reading a bunch of uh uh authors over the Christmas holidays. So, I'll give you that.
2:20 Okay. Okay. Okay. Listen, we had to start off strong just because I was I I enjoyed the question. You you came in hot and I then I realized like how did he even remember, but then as I look
2:28 over my shoulders, I'm like it's actually all over me here. Um excited,
2:32 Josh, to have you on this podcast. Let the people know where's the organization you're representing? What is the title that you hold?
2:38 So, I'm the CEO of a nonprofit called Boulder Crest Foundation.
2:42 Love it, man. And and what gets you there, man? What was the why? Josh, I feel like when we get into these spaces,
2:48 we always get there for reasons. What was your reason?
2:50 You know, as I reflect on my life and look back, the fact that I'd be sitting here having this conversation with you doing what I'm doing is so improbable to
2:58 me. I mean, I grew up as a kid in Dallas. Um, you know, with the task of getting a profession, making the family proud. Uh, I went to college and then
3:06 ended up going to work at large companies. I worked for a big international company in London then New Zealand and then came back to Dallas where I grew up and I got married and
3:15 and I guess you know by all mean by all all accounts I had the life I had everything I was supposed to want. I had achieved success at a young age and I was continuing to kind of climb the
3:23 corporate ladder and I had this epiphany uh prompted by my wife at the time when she just said is this how you want to spend the rest of your life and I began
3:32 to reflect on and examine everything and I was like holy cow like what have I done? I've built this entirely false existence. I'm like an actor in the movie of my life, like The Truman Show.
3:42 And it is deeply, deeply unsatisfying. And um went through a range of steps.
3:48 Probably don't suggest that everybody changes everything all at once, but I'm a little bit impulsive at times. And so I got divorced, switched careers,
3:54 changed friends, did a whole bunch of things all at the same time. And on the one hand was liberated to go figure out who it was that I was supposed to be and what my life was supposed to be about.
4:04 On the other hand, when you've constructed your identity and value and self-worth based on external things and you push all those away, you're going to
4:12 be in crisis. And I was in crisis and I struggled and I couldn't sleep and I had panic attacks and I was drinking too
4:20 much and I just got to this place where I could not see a way out and I was I was in the dark and I was like listen I
4:28 got two more weeks and if I can't figure it out in two weeks then I'm just going to take my life because I I can't find a path through and uh a gentleman I worked
4:36 for at the time a guy named Morty Myerson gave me a book um which we can talk more about and I read it Man's Search for Meaning and It caused me to
4:44 start to reflect on two things. The first was that I wasn't a victim or a passenger in my life. I was an active participant and my job was to find
4:53 meaning, not wait for it to find me. And the second was if I wanted to help myself, I should help somebody else. And with that sort of opening and that
5:00 thought, I got asked by a friend of my brothers if I would meet with a guy on the Dallas Cowboys, which is my team,
5:07 and uh his wife. I went and met with Derek and Emma. And Emma's brother had died in Afghanistan. and he was a Marine and they wanted to start a nonprofit and they asked for my help and I started
5:15 helping them and every two weeks someone would call me and say I heard you help veterans groups can you help us and I had no military experience I had no
5:22 understanding of that world but the one thing I did understand was suffering and struggle and suicidality and those are prominent in the community and so I
5:31 started helping them and then you know I just kept doing it and kept saying yes and here I am you know 13 years later uh
5:38 leading this organization of of of folks and and to help people. And it's been I wouldn't trade any of it. Although some of it was incredibly incredibly
5:46 difficult and scary and challenging and and hopeless at times. A lot of things to dig out of that, man.
5:53 Thank you so much for being so open and sharing that story. First off, um books. You mentioned clearly you read books.
5:58 You mentioned that book that changed your life. Were you reading books prior to that already?
6:03 I would read but I would say to you that the idea of exploring notions around
6:10 like meaning and the point of life and those kinds of things were not really on my radar or things I was reading. So I was reading but I don't think I was
6:19 reading anything that was catalyzing me to realize that frankly I was like dead inside.
6:25 Got it. Got it. So you weren't just reading the right things at the moment pretty much.
6:28 Right. Exactly. and and and and I do think like if you always do what you've always done, you'll always get what you always got. And one of the things that I
6:37 did and I took this Eat Pray Love trip around the world at some point to try to find myself was I just asked everybody I knew like tell me your three favorite
6:45 books and uh and so I just started to buy and at the time I had a Kindle and I just bought all these books, some of which I didn't like, some of which I
6:52 did. But I ended up finding things that I never would have found any other way because my own limitations were my own limitations. My own preferences were my own preferences.
7:02 So, a question that your ex-wife Yeah.
7:05 asked kind of led you down a path. Do you think that it was a question that was needed at that moment? As much as it
7:12 was crazy and it took you down a path that you didn't you didn't expect, do you think is what was needed for you to get here?
7:19 Yeah. And I don't know if you know Joseph Campbell. Joseph Campbell studied the stories of mankind and he talks about this idea that there is this moment when there's this call to
7:27 adventure and it's this idea that you realize that there's not enough of you in your life and so I think that that
7:35 question that was asked by my my then wife now ex-wife was the a critical factor in that journey of of basically
7:42 it was a wakeup call be like hey and it wasn't asked in that intent but who cares about the intent of the question the way it was received was like huh
7:51 Is this what I want to do with my one and only life as best we can tell? And I am I will always be grateful for that question because it was the wakeup call
7:59 I needed to start to reflect and examine that led to everything else. But without that, like I'm still, you know, asleep um throughout my life.
8:09 So So man, so you were at the mountaintop,
8:12 you you hit rock bottom and you're sitting at the mountain top again.
8:16 Yep. really sometimes people don't realize about um re you've talked about it finding yourself sometimes rebranding
8:24 yourself for you it looked very in a a different way but rebranding looks completely different for so many different people on what that looks like changing the environment like you truly
8:32 just went uh cold turkey in a sense right and says all right well what does it look like on the other side and then from the other side realized like wait
8:40 this is not really the side that I wanted how do I get back to you know so you it was crazy and then you mentioned something actually that I wanted to also tap happened was in order to help me, I had to help somebody else.
8:51 Where does that come from and what does that look like?
8:54 And and I'll come back and say one thing, maybe I was at the top of a mountain before, but it wasn't the right mountain. You know, uh Campbell says
9:01 that the crisis in your life is when you get to the top of a ladder and it's against the wrong building. So, I would say that and and David Brooks wrote a great book called The Second Mountain is
9:09 maybe I climbed the first mountain of accomplishment and like resume stuff,
9:13 but certainly not like eulogy and meaningfulness. And so I think I'm on a very different place and um and I'm not by myself, right? There's a lot of
9:21 people that were hanging out um at different spots on the mountain. Uh the service stuff I think is really interesting. You know, my mom's a teacher was, my dad's a doctor, so I
9:30 grew up around people who were engaged in in helping people, but I think along the way
9:38 the allure of stuff probably took the place of a desire to to to do things for other people. And I don't think I was a bad person or a callous person, but I
9:46 don't think I was meaningfully engaged in service in my life. And I think the recognition that if you live your life
9:53 for yourself and for the sort of propagation and accumulation of yourself, you're going to end up empty and with a void inside. And uh and I do recall that more a big part of my story,
10:04 this guy I worked for and and he had taken us to a food bank. And I remember we were just like sorting boxes with grits and some other things to give to folk. And I just remember feeling like a
10:13 little bit better that day. And so this idea of doing things for other people is really what takes us outside of our own
10:21 system and helps us realize so much about life and how much we have to be grateful for and all these kinds of things. And so you know and I obviously
10:28 work with communities that are dedicated to service and ironically they struggle with the inverse problem which is the idea of taking care of themselves feels
10:36 very selfish. And so you're trying to convince people. It's like, hey, at some point if you don't fill your own cup, you got no water to give anybody else.
10:43 And so it's just this interesting dynamic of who I find myself around now are people who understand and understood things that I didn't. And I'm not sure
10:52 where I lost my way, but I did. And thankfully, I found my way back to uh where I was supposed to be. And it's um the right people, man.
11:00 People always ask like, how do I get into this space that I'm in today,
11:04 right? Helping others because we all have a story. And I think I mentioned a little bit that and pretty much people that have kind of um watched this show have probably heard the story plenty of
11:11 times so I won't say it. But um I feel like it's when people say how do you get here? I says the right people. God
11:19 blessed me with the right people. You know that people that were seeing what I really was and the value of of me before
11:26 I even seen it in myself and I commend my wife for I think she was really a big part of that as well. But pouring into
11:33 to to others, man, it truly does fill your cup, you know? And that's that passion and purpose work, right? When we talk about chasing passion and purpose,
11:40 it's not the paychecks. When you really get to help others, by sharing your story, Josh, by doing one simple thing,
11:45 I could only imagine it just by sharing your story, by being honest, by being yourself more importantly. Um, what other things do you feel allows you to
11:54 to be that leader for others? Like how do you come now differently?
11:59 You know, I think and I believe deeply in in order to sustainably help other people, right? I run a nonprofit. It's grown a lot. We have 85 people who work
12:07 here, 86 people who work here. So, it's a lot. There's a lot of responsibilities, a lot of obligations, a lot of challenges we get to deal with.
12:13 And so, I think one of the things that's really, really important is to take care of yourself. And so, like for me, it's having a routine. And you know what
12:21 that's about for me is I wake up, I meditate every day, I I engage in gratitude, I work out and move my body.
12:27 and and from that point forward after maybe the first two hours of the day then the rest of that day is for everybody else. But if I don't do those
12:34 things um if I'm sleepd deprived, if I'm not moving, if I'm not meditating, then I don't have the patience and the calm
12:41 and the energy that's required to bring all my talents and skills to bear. So I think about it like it's like a flame,
12:49 right? And part of what helps the flame certainly is helping other people, but you can certainly burn out. And John John Lewis, the amazing civil rights activist, congressman, he said, "Be a
12:57 pilot light, not a firecracker." And that I think is figuring out what you need to do in your life sustainably to be the pilot light. And I think practices do that like gratitude,
13:07 meditation. I think people do that.
13:09 Surrounding yourself with really good people who maybe when you aren't taking care of yourself are going to call you on it, um are really really important.
13:16 And then I think being able to engage in in reflection and and curiosity is, you know, the one thing I would say it's like I was I was struggling a little bit
13:24 when you were saying the mountain because I'm like I still have so much more to learn. I still have so many more people to meet. I still have more things to do. And so this is deeply unfinished.
13:34 And I think having that humility and that curiosity that is like an innate part of who I am is also really really important because otherwise you're like,
13:42 "Oh, I figured everything out. I know everything." because the minute you you think you got it, you're about to get punched in the face. I can promise you that. And so I think staying staying hungry, staying curious is important.
13:53 Oh man, I love that. I love to stay curious and stay hungry. That is completely true. And it kind of goes back to this whole wrestling thing we were talking before. You know, it's like
14:01 I got to a level that I just imagined one day imagined and now I'm here. What's next? Like there has to be more,
14:07 right? Like what happens if you continue to show up? And that's what happened for you. you continued to show up and now you're you're president of this
14:14 organization. Um, what was your what was the relationship with your your your parents? Like did you have a close relationship with them growing up?
14:23 I did have a close relationship with and my dad was working hard and trying to build his medical practice and so I spent a lot of time with my mom. Um, and
14:32 my brother was a big influence in my life and just was always sort of like part of a parental figure. um and very
14:39 just inclusive in everything I did. And I think provided me with a lot of things that I didn't really appreciate until more recently. Um where I look back and
14:48 I was like, "Holy cow." Like he, you know, when there was chaos, when there was stuff going down, he was always there. And uh and I'm and I'm obviously deeply grateful to that and I've shared
14:56 that with him. Um, but yeah, I mean I think like relatively close to my family, I think, you know, growing up in a Jewish family, I there are certain
15:04 expectations and ways that the culture operates that that lead you down certain paths about in particular, and this goes to what you said earlier about being
15:12 yourself. Is when you are trained that what other people think of you is more important than when you think of yourself, you're going to have a problem. Um, you're going to make
15:21 choices for the wrong reasons that are going to probably take you way, way, way off course. And that's what happened,
15:26 right? I made these decisions and it's like I never really wanted to get married, but I got married. Never really wanted a job that was safe and comfortable, but I got a job that was
15:34 safe and comfortable. Like you do all these things and then and then you start to get accustomed to certain ways of living and certain things and you become
15:42 socialized and institutionalized and you're and and until unless someone's like, "Hey, you know, what the hell are you doing?" Then you're like, "What the hell am I doing?" Like I've always been
15:50 like kind of an outsider, someone who thinks differently, but I'm in this place where that's not that like it's crazy. And so I think that's the
15:58 interesting part of of life. And I and I one time I was on a trip and I was just randomly talking to this lady and I was telling her my story. Somehow it came up and she said,
16:07 you know, lots of people have existential crises in their life and they get to the edge of of jumping to the life that they're supposed to have
16:16 that they need to have that they're meant to have and they get scared and they go back to their old life and I found that was really interesting,
16:23 right? that like it's our stories aren't unique,
16:27 but maybe the follow through and we shared, you know, we talked about this in in the pre-con conversation about the role that your wife plays in like encouraging because there's moments when
16:35 it's not like, oh, you figure out what you're supposed to do with your life and everything is good. It's like there are lots of moments where you're like, have I made a mistake? What am I doing? How am I going to provide for whatever I
16:43 need to provide for? Like you have all the like it it doesn't mean you're on this like path of like, oh, everything is just great and the world conspires to help you. It's you have you still have
16:52 dark nights and start challenges. And so how do you navigate those challenges I think is important, right? And the people you have in your lives to support
17:00 you to say no like you're going to keep doing this.
17:03 It's like you know my life, Josh. Um every day I'm telling myself like how did I get here? What's next? You know it
17:10 it's I love it. Um and I think being in those spaces I think we've always there and it kind of to which you mentioned a little earlier what we've been kind of
17:18 referring to is the mindset. If your mindset is on par, when those questions do arise, you know how to pivot through
17:26 those questions because they come that it's imposter syndrome. It's never going to go away, right? I was actually listening. I don't know if you know who John Morgan is. You know who John Morgan is?
17:34 From Morgan and Morgan. No.
17:37 So Morgan and Morgan is um just real quick, he was in Orlando. He was he's a big lawyer and now has an law office in
17:45 every state in the country, right? and he talked about when he started um he just kind of talks about those early days of just never giving up. It's of of
17:54 people taking advantage of him and and how he had to pivot through um never giving himself paychecks, investing all that money into something else, right?
18:04 And then and and no matter how much money he had, he said he was still going through those moments of like what the hell am I doing? Even though he's in all these states, he's still asking himself
18:12 25 states in what am I doing? Like this doesn't even make sense. the dude's a billionaire, right? And all those times when you ask yourself those questions,
18:20 it's like you got to see the other side.
18:22 I'm pretty sure you've seen the picture where the guys are going for the diamond. The guy's right there and he turns around. Have you seen that one? I haven't.
18:30 Josh, are you on social media, Josh? Not really. Not really.
18:34 No, but it's those moments, man, that we're so close. I actually want to ask you before we pivot into the the nonprofit, how long were you on that detour from one mountain to the other?
18:46 you know, that question was really in 2011. I spent a lot of time talking to a lot of different people to realize that,
18:51 you know, I was way offkilter. And then um it's probably a couple years later that I had been helping people and
18:59 started to feel a little bit better. And then I got told uh by one of the veterans who was involved in a group that I was helping out with that uh I was only allowed to help his his brother
19:07 and sister if I um can I curse if I'm quoting something? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
19:11 All right. told me to unfuck myself. And I smiled and I laughed and I was like,
19:15 "Fair enough." Cuz I, this is the point of I was serving other people. I felt better, but I still wasn't okay. And so I was like, "All right, how do I do
19:23 that?" And then basically part of my debt that I owe veterans is they helped me unfuck myself to get to a place where I found my own sense of courage, my own
19:31 sense of strength, my own sense of clarity and calm and and focus and direction. And uh and so that experience was in like October of 2013. I met Ken
19:40 Faulk who started Boulder Crest in November of 2013 and then joined him here in May of 2014. So, you know, it was probably the two to threeyear period
19:49 and and Mort who I've mentioned multiple times was you know I went to him when I was working for him and I was really struggling and I needed to go away on
19:56 this trip and I said Mort like I'm not okay and I need to go away and he said you're right. He said you're really depressed right now. He but you're going to figure this out. It's going to take
20:04 you between 3 months and three years but you're going to figure this out. I don't know why. I have no idea where the numbers came from. I don't know like I've no I don't I don't understand it
20:12 but he was about right on the latter side of that that it was about three years of like in the wilderness of wandering of trying to figure stuff out
20:19 of not having any money of sleeping on couches but staying true to I had found this thing that that was my purpose and
20:28 was my meaning and and and like I said this is where we share in common is like that's great you still have to figure out how to how to convert that into
20:37 something that's like productive and meaningful and useful. Otherwise, you're just passionate about something, but you're not able to bring that passion
20:44 into the world in a way that you know is contagious in different ways. So, yeah. Yeah.
20:49 Wow. Um that is so cool, man. And out of that time frame, what is it that you
20:56 take out of that moment? Because while you're living in it, it's very dark. Very dark times. You're in your head.
21:02 Things are not going well. But after you get out of it, you look back and like,
21:06 "Holy [ __ ] I learned a lot from this moment." What do you take from those moments that you still use today while running the organization?
21:14 You you know I think one of the challenges of the world we live in is we've gotten to this place where we have a diagnosis for everything and we like pathize life in so many ways and and we work with primarily first responders,
21:25 military and veteran where the term PTSD is often used cited where people think most you know soldiers have this and
21:33 often for people when they get a label like that it's like oh no like I broke it my life is over and the rest of it is going to be a fraction of what it used
21:42 to be. And I think the part I take the most out of is two things. A, how things are is how is not how they have to be,
21:49 but you got to do some work to make that conversion possible. And the other thing is like it is when it's darkest that um
21:58 maybe maybe I'll just quote, sorry I didn't do that on purpose, but with Churchill it's like when you're going through hell, Church Hill said when you're going through hell, keep going.
22:04 Right? It's like when you're in the dark, keep going. And because what feels like you're not making pro in a good
22:12 way, right? But like that that there is light out there. And maybe the last thing is is is be honest like when
22:20 you're struggling and I understand the shame and all of it. I've been through all of it. But it's like saying like, "Holy cow, like I'm scared.
22:28 I'm not okay. I don't know what's happening." Was the beginning of all the stuff changing. And I think being willing to acknowledge that out loud to another human being was very powerful.
22:39 As shame producing as it was to have to acknowledge that my life was unmanageable and I was overwhelmed. Um,
22:45 and I think being true and being honest is the other piece.
22:48 If the Heart and Hustle podcast has ever sparked any idea or made you think differently, do us a favor. Make sure to guys share this, post it on LinkedIn, or
22:57 even text that nonprofit friend that you just have. Whatever works. This is what keeps the conversation going and allows us to just grow this community together.
23:07 Seriously, we appreciate you. I think, man, was it shame? Was it ego? Was it pride?
23:14 I think it was all of those things. It was all of those things, you know?
23:17 And um I think it was all of those things. I just I mean, there was a particular moment when I pulled into this parking garage at this place and it just hit me
23:25 that's like, "Holy cow, like I'm not okay in this." And and I was scared like like scared. I was scared that it felt
23:32 like my system had hijacked me. And I remember I called my best friend just reflexively and and he was like, "How you doing?" I'm like, "I'm not good,
23:39 dude. Like, I'm really really bad." And he said, "You should probably talk to somebody." And I said, "Listen here, you
23:46 mfer. I am talking to you." Like, so shut the hell up and listen to me because there's nobody else in the world that I would tell this to right now.
23:55 And um so and I think it was all of those things, but I needed somebody in my life that none of that really mattered. The
24:02 only thing that mattered is like like it was like me being like I'm drowning. Like I'm like help me. And uh and I think that was a big step. Oh man.
24:10 You know, hell yeah. Kudos to you, man.
24:12 Kudos to you and where you've where you've gotten yourself. You know, it's definitely not easy work. And um hopefully those that are watching really take how I always say it looks great.
24:23 the seat feels great, looks great when someone's looking for it, but they don't understand the story. And this is just one of the many stories of someone
24:30 that's sitting in a president CEO chair um that nothing was handed. Everything was truly just sacrifice and grid and
24:38 never giving up and to this day still probably just dealing with your own things, right? Life or workrelated. What does that daytoday look like for you though as president CEO of this organization?
24:48 dayto day, you know, I uh I'd say like it's a you know, I have a lot of energy,
24:55 like a lot of energy, and I travel a lot. Probably 50 60% of the time people like, "How do you do this?" I'm like, "I just got a lot of energy. It's probably best to spend it this way." And so I spent a lot of time having conversations
25:04 with people in the outside world to talk about how we can work together, how we can help their folks, how we can partner with them. um and and and
25:14 basically the same amount of time supporting, mentoring and coaching the people who who work with us as we've grown as an organization. So, uh, I
25:21 would say a lot of conversations, a lot of talking that gets done. And then, um,
25:25 I think the other piece is getting to spend time thinking through a little bit more longer term, which is which is honestly like more what I would do on the weekends and and in the evenings is
25:34 like, okay, everything's quiet, the emails aren't coming in. Just starting to reflect on like, okay, like here's things that are coming down the track.
25:41 How do we want to approach this? How do we want to tackle this? Um, is is is what I would say. And then just keeping people calm, right? I mean, I think one
25:49 of the challenges in life is that, you know, human beings are challenging and human beings challenge us and there's some good in that. There's some challenge in that. And I think just helping people talk through like, okay,
25:59 what happened? What are we going to do?
26:00 How do we want to handle it? And I think, you know, there's an aspect of it where you're as a CEO, you're you're a leader, you have to have vision, but you're also a coach. And so people can
26:08 come to you and and whether it's personal or professional stuff, and you just work through it and, you know,
26:12 figure it out and keep moving. And uh and then I think part of the job too is to to inspire people, right? right, is to go out and talk and and help people
26:20 realize like we're in the business of shifting an entire paradigm. And so you really have to paint this picture to help people realize like there's another
26:27 way to think about this stuff. There's another way to operate uh when it comes to life and struggle. And uh so, you know, getting to have a lot of conversations with people whether
26:36 they're struggling, whether they're running an agency or whatever it might be.
26:40 I love it, man. How many individuals were you guys able to um serve this past year? Last year it was like 43,000 people which is crazy. Um when we
26:48 started in 2013 we wanted to serve 700 people a year. And so it just gives you this sense that there's this contagion for another way to operate and think
26:57 about life. And so and I suspect you know I tell people I'm like you know we're still just getting started. Like it's still early days. There's a lot of
27:04 need in the world. And if you're running a nonprofit that's focused on mental health then you're in a growth industry. I wish that wasn't true but it is true.
27:12 And there's a lot of people that need help and and in the worlds we live in,
27:16 but also just in the world. Like you don't have to look very far to look at the stats. It's maybe the richest country in the history of the world, but we sure as hell don't know how to live
27:23 in the world. And um you know, and and that's and there's just too many people living,
27:29 you know, less than less than good lives. And and I just I can't abide that. And so, you know, part of what I
27:36 have to think about is like how do you help people outside of our core constituencies without losing focus on
27:43 what is most important to this organization? And I think that's part of the fun of like you have to get creative about how do you solve problems and not
27:50 just keep growing and growing and growing because we're not a business.
27:52 We're not going to sell to somebody. We just have to raise more money. And that's not an easy thing to do. So, you want to grow responsibly and you want to le you want to you want to scale your
28:01 impact without scaling your organization. You're talking about raising money, man.
28:05 We're in a time, and I know you either may feel it, not feel it. We're going to find this out, but where organizations are concerned, right? Government funding
28:13 is being cut all over the place. Are you guys an organization that looks towards that government funding or have you guys been doing more philanthropy, looking at
28:22 the philanthropic work and and getting funds that way?
28:25 most of our uh donation, most of our money comes from uh individuals,
28:31 foundations, corporations, and things along those lines, a small percentage of our money comes from the the government.
28:38 And so, and while in some respects I'm hopeful that'll grow, um, you know,
28:43 through all the Doge work and all the rest of it, there wasn't much of an effect, but it's probably like three to five percent of our of our raise. But I'm I'm well aware and I have, you know,
28:50 plenty of friends who were very very uh dependent on those funds and got cut and it really, you know, creates a massive issue, right? Because they're
28:58 having to they're having to lay people off. They're not able to provide services to people who are obviously in need of services. And so, you know, you wonder about at some point things
29:05 stabilize a little bit more and kind of come come back to a a status quo, a stasis of some kind.
29:13 What do you think has been some of the challenges? I mean, you obviously growing from hundreds to now tens of thousands um of of people you serve. Is there still a challenge on how to grow?
29:25 Like, is it a communication? Is it people I always feel like people just don't know, right? like how do we tell people that this exists in their own backyard? What are some of the
29:33 challenges you've experienced as you continue to um serve more people?
29:37 You know, one of the things that's been interesting and is meaningful is we we haven't had to do a lot of promotion for
29:46 um our programs is that in essence you get to this flywheel where when you serve people and you do a good job that these communities are at the end of the day relatively small. So if you have,
29:55 you know, 10 veterans going through a program and eight of them had an amazing experience, they're going to tell two or three of their friends each. And so it starts to be get more and more
30:02 applicants. So that's where you have to figure out how do you grow? Because without doing anything, without paying any money for advertising or telling people about what you're doing, you're
30:10 going to continue to have more people who need your services. And similarly, I think when you do really good work,
30:17 people tell other people about the work you're doing. And so on the kind of the interest in what we're doing, that's where the challenge comes, which is how
30:26 do you continue to grow to meet needs without having to continue to accumulate a larger and larger number that you have to hit every single year to pay
30:34 everybody and to do all the things we need to do to run our programs. And so um finding the balance of those things is is important and and just growing intelligently is is a big part of this,
30:46 right? That's why when I say you know about reading fiction books is like you I read plenty of books on strategy there's a great book Blitzcaling by Reed Hoffman that talks about like if you
30:54 look at Silicon Valley companies and you look at the way they think about growth and how they're trying to do stuff there are a lot of parallels to what we're
31:02 trying to accomplish and so you know how do you how do you scale impact without scaling cost is not an abnormal
31:09 conversation for any business and so I draw upon a lot of inspiration in those areas and then the other piece is as you grow We were 35 people three years ago.
31:17 We're 86 people today. It puts pressure on the culture you want to create because now you have people who who I
31:24 haven't met who maybe are working in who are remote, right? And they're doing mobile programming. And so they don't have the same level of contact. And it
31:32 is really really important to me the culture of our organization, how we do things, how we treat each other. And so it it really forces you to be really
31:41 thoughtful about how do you maintain the culture of an organization and and the standard of an organization when when I may not have met any of the met met the
31:49 new people who are joining it. And that's part of why I travel, right? To get the opportunity to spend time with people so that they understand from the
31:56 top what it is that's expected and how we want to operate and how we want to run things. And I think that's it's an important part of running an
32:04 organization is it's it's it's the saying, right? like what does it profit a man to gain in the world if he loses his soul is there are plenty of companies that are growth at all costs
32:12 and then you meet the people who work at those companies and they hate their lives and I don't want that right that's not my that's not my idea of a good time
32:20 I don't want to lead that organization I don't want to be part of it and so that I think is is a constant challenge of making sure you have the right people you're supporting those people and then
32:29 how those people are engaging with other people internally and externally is important your background was for-profit right before you got into nonprofit
32:37 it was what do you what do you enjoy about the nonprofit that maybe for-profit wasn't given you you know I'd say two things so
32:45 everything that I learned at the companies I worked for is incredibly valuable to me today and I think that's I can't guarantee it but I would argue to people who go through these massive
32:54 pivots in their life is is it's it's although someone might look and be like your resume was like this this this and then you went like way over here it's
33:01 like yeah but but I was learning right I was learning and all the things I learned I needed to be able to do this thing over here is a big piece of it. But but fundamentally,
33:10 I think there's a lot of things about working at a nonprofit that make life amazing is you're generally going to be surrounded by people who are mission focused, right? Is the people who work
33:17 here obviously aren't here because they're trying to make a bunch of money.
33:20 They're here because they want to help people. And so you just have this really high caliber of amazing human beings who who I love, who I admire, who are just
33:29 like amazing. And and the other thing is like you get to like you exist to help people and solve a problem, right? Like
33:36 that's the the purpose of everything we do is how do we help people live a good life? How do we help people not take their lives? So when I show up and I get
33:44 to be like, you know, how can we help you? I I mean it like I'm not trying to sell a product or service. I'm trying to figure out how do we address the
33:52 challenges that they have? And I just have to make sure we do that in a responsible fashion so that we have the money to be able to do the things we need to do. But that's like the the best
34:00 part of it is your motives pure. And the last piece is the people who volunteer who who invest in us are amazing, right?
34:09 So like I'm constantly exposed to people who are who are generous enough to give of their time and their treasure to get
34:16 to help be part of our world. And you just meet like amazing people. And so I think that's that to me is like, you
34:23 know, it's it's this is definitely where I'll spend my life. And it's amazing. And I'm deeply grateful for it all. Right. Yeah. Yeah.
34:31 And the nonprofit I always enjoy that um every day is a different day. You you could today you be CEO and then maybe tomorrow you're playing a different role
34:39 and you know that's just kind of the life in the nonprofit world. I um what is a a if I'm that someone receiving
34:48 service, am I calling in, am I texting in? Like how easy and what does that you know navigation look like if I'm trying to get some service from uh Boulderrest?
34:56 So, you know, our nonprofit is the home of post-traumatic growth. And so, we we develop and deliver and we study and scale post-traumatic growth based programs. And if people haven't heard of
35:05 post-traumatic growth, that doesn't make them unique. But I highly encourage you to check out our website,
35:08 bouldercrest.org, to learn more about this idea that in struggle there is value, right? Which is at the core of my story. You know, I found it my own way.
35:16 And so, we we do a few different programs. Boulderest has three retreat centers, three campuses. One in Virginia, one in Arizona, one in Texas.
35:24 And then at the end of last year, an amazing Navy veteran donated 27 acre campus in uh Wyoming to us. So we'll have a fourth place. And so you have
35:33 these places and we host families, so combat veterans and their families for two to seven nights. They come onto the website. We we put the dates up every four months in advance and they can sign
35:42 up. They can come once every two years to one of our places and enjoy getting to spend time together. Um and it doesn't cost them anything. Uh other
35:49 folks who are struggling will hear about our program, Warrior Path, some way or another. They'll go on to the website.
35:54 They'll fill out an application and within 72 hours, we'll reach out, say,
35:57 "Hey, let's let's set up a conversation to see if this is the right fit for you." And that'll be one of our peers,
36:03 one of our veterans or first responders will have a conversation. And then we do work in the world, which we call struggle well, where we go to uh
36:11 agencies, military units, first responder agencies, and we run training.
36:14 So, sometimes people who show up in those classes get assigned to go to those classes, and that's always fun because it's like, "Hey, you're going to struggle well class." And sometimes people are like, "Oh, I thought they were telling me I was screwed up." Um,
36:25 and so that happens. Sometimes people sign up for the classes and then they get the opportunity to to kind of learn about post-traumatic growth and be part of something. So that's the general way
36:33 people are finding out about us. And it's a lot it's a lot of word of mouth um in terms of how people hear about us,
36:41 how leaders hear about us is someone will say, "Hey, I saw this thing. I heard this thing." And then I'd love to work with you guys and you know and then put it together.
36:49 Hell yeah, man. You you mentioned culture a little earlier. What are those values that create that culture? I think that it's so important. I worked for an
36:56 airline industry. I always enjoyed that's the first time actually one that I've seen a company really live off their values and even mention values,
37:03 right? And I think that was so big and on how we've seen the culture and how I've experienced the culture to this day. I still loved it. I still loved
37:11 everything they understood for. I I still understand all five values. Can repeat it. What does it look like for your organization at Boulder Crest? I mean clearly you you you want
37:19 positivity. I can imagine it's one of those values but there has to be some more.
37:23 I the what we have as our values are called PKC3.
37:27 So the P is passionate is this is not a job right? This is a calling. You are surrounded by people who are deeply hair
37:34 on fire passionate about helping. And so I need people who are really really committed to wanting to be part of our world and wanting to help other people.
37:42 And no matter what your role is there has to be some individual connection to what we do. The second, the K is kind.
37:48 And you know, there's two pieces of kind. K kind is kind. Like don't like don't be an [ __ ] as the book that there's a famous book, right? The the no [ __ ] rule is like don't be an
37:56 [ __ ] Like there's just no cause for it. Like handle your stuff. If you're frustrated by somebody, have a conversation with somebody. Don't yell.
38:03 Don't scream. Don't be a jerk. Like but and the other piece of being kind is it's a lot kinder to talk with somebody than it is to talk about somebody. And so being direct is also a piece of that.
38:13 And then the three C's are are competence, right? But I want people who are dedicated to being the best at they the best at what they do as they can
38:20 possibly be. Uh curiosity which I think is the key to life. We talked about that earlier. It's just being curious about things. And then the last is courage is
38:28 you know we are an organization that is entrepreneurial in a lot of respects.
38:31 And so we take chances and you know people don't get punished for mistakes.
38:35 We don't like yell people make them feel bad. Like I've worked at places where you know you make a mistake you're going to hear about it from 30 people and you're going to get beat down. And so
38:42 those are our values. And when I think about people who come into our world,
38:46 those are important. When I think about people who are in our world and when I think about when somebody like we we'll hear from
38:53 people like hey um like I met a boulderrest person and they were so boulder cresty like that that there's a tangible feeling of what it means and
39:02 generally what they're talking about is somebody who is like serviceoriented and is deeply proud and passionate about getting to be part of this. And so, you
39:10 know, that's what I want for our culture. And um and those those values are important. And like you said, I've worked at places where there are values,
39:18 but they're like those motivational posters on the wall. They're not meaningful. And and I think that it's really really important that you're not
39:25 hypocritical. And so, like for me, when you have people who are serviceoriented,
39:30 they and and the nature of our communities is they will serve over and over. They'll say yes to everything. and and so we have to make sure that we don't have an organization dedicated to
39:39 helping other people be well, but that's impacting negatively the wellness of the people who work for us. And so those are the things we have to make sure that we
39:46 do so that we're congruent in that what we're offering the world, we're offo also making sure is happening in our world. And and those are just the things
39:54 you think about as and we're all different as it relates to that, right?
39:57 like how how much we can work all those how much we can travel all those things are different depending on people's family situations and and and and energy
40:04 levels etc but those are things I think about and you know and and I have an amazing mentor Ken Faulk who started organization I live next door to Ken and
40:12 he's just an amazing human being and I think this is a piece and you mentioned having you mentioned having good people in your lives is nobody knows everything
40:20 about everything and humility to acknowledge that like you don't know certain things about stuff is not something that you should be ashamed
40:28 about. It's something you should be like, "Hey, I don't know anything about this." Now, obviously, we live in a world with podcast and AI and YouTube.
40:34 You can learn most things, but I have people in my life who I can be like,
40:36 "Hey, I've never dealt with this. Can you talk? Can you help me think through this?" And I think that's a big piece of nobody does anything on their own. And
40:44 so, having people that you can do stuff with is really important.
40:50 I love it, Josh. I love that you've experienced life in the way that you have. Um, some people don't get to experience life this way, right? Um,
40:59 some people would have got stuck on that detour somewhere. Um, obviously you find your way back to a better version of yourself. Not saying the old version
41:07 wasn't good. I think there's always we have to evolve. You evolved. I go back to that old that younger version of
41:14 myself when I was in my 20s and I look back and I'm like, man, I was a savage,
41:17 you know, and uh but I had to be as well. I enjoyed life as well. And I look at who I am now and I'm kind of grateful
41:25 and thankful. Um, you mentioned grateful earlier. What are the things that you're grateful for, man? Being in the seat that you are today. Not just so much as
41:32 from the leader perspective, but the human perspective of you. Yeah. I mean, I'm grateful for life, right?
41:38 I'm grateful for maybe not the right term, but like a second chance at at figuring out what to do with mine. I'm grateful for,
41:46 you know, what I consider the greatest wealth in life is to have amazing people in your lives. that I have far more people in my lives that I deeply love and cherish than I have time to spend
41:54 time with them. And that when I do get to see them, it's like no time has ever passed. And I'm I'm grateful for getting
42:01 to live a life that is meaningful and purposeful where I wake up and I'm filled with gratitude and excitement about getting to do really meaningful things. But most of all, I think it's
42:09 just it's the people in my life um is that I'm most grateful for. Um, but I,
42:15 you know, there was a time in my life in Thanksgiving of of 12 when I passed when I was asked what I was grateful for. And to wake up now every day and just be
42:24 like overflowing with like, I can't believe I get another day. I can't believe I get to do this.
42:29 That is the greatest blessing in in life. And um, amen to that.
42:33 You know, it's something I cherish and and I'm and I'm grateful for the opportunity to have meaningful conversations and appreciate your story and and your journey and everything you've done, man. It's it's really it's
42:42 amazing. It's, you know, there's there's a lot of us in the world, right? too, man.
42:45 Yeah. Yeah, there is. There is. And that's why we got to share the stories more. I believe one story, one person changes somebody's life. And when we talk about stories, you're you're I
42:54 don't read books. That that don't get confused with the books I have back here, okay? People gift me books. And I'll skim through them. I try, but my brain starts to think about 10 different
43:03 ideas and businesses that I just, you know, can't really get to read them. But, um, clearly you read books,
43:09 fiction, non-fiction, motivational. What are your three books that you can give someone that may be in a space of pivoting in their life? Yeah.
43:16 So, Man's Search for Meaning to Me is the best book ever written. There's religious people, so I'll call it the second best book. Victor Frankle,
43:21 Holocaust survivor. Uh, by the way, side note, I get accused of having dark reading taste. So, just bear with me. The second is The Choice by Edith Edgar, also a Holocaust and Ashwit survivor,
43:30 but an amazing amazing journey in a story, especially when you talk about pivots of people who made these pivots.
43:36 And I think the third if we're talking about pivots I think would be the second mountain by David Brooks. David Brooks has written a lot of great books but
43:43 that book really talks about I think the things that we are prioritizing and focusing on our life and uses incredible examples of folks. So we'll start with those three and I'll give you a bonus.
43:52 So, Sid Harta is an amazing book by Herman Hessie and it's an incredible book because I feel like it's a lot about my story of this. It's the it's
44:00 the fictionalized story of Buddha, but it's like him being protected, not seeing anything bad in the world, and then getting exposed to it and being like, "Oh my god, like there's so much
44:09 more to life and then going out into the world." And I I feel a lot of echoes in that book to my own life. And so I think
44:16 those are great books for people in transitional component parts of their life to help realize that um that the
44:25 struggle is real. It's beautiful and meaningful and a core part of the journey, but so is the other side of that story. Love it, man. I appreciate you, Josh.
44:33 It's been an amazing time, amazing conversation. Where can people find more information about what you guys are doing at Boulderrest?
44:38 Yeah, so we're on the socials borderrest Foundation on LinkedIn, on Instagram, on Facebook, and then our website borderrest.org. org is really, I think,
44:46 like a hub for all things post-traumatic growth in the world. And although we serve military at Veterans First responders, nothing about what we do is
44:55 unique to those communities. Most people in the world, to include the two of us,
44:58 have been through traumatic stuff in our lives. We've been through difficulty and struggle in our lives. And figuring out how do we make sense of that to live a good life is is important. So check out
45:06 the website at boulderrest.org. I think you'll find an amazing array of of content and things that will land even if you're as far away from these communities as as possible.
45:17 Josh, I appreciate you. If you guys are still watching, make sure you guys do like, subscribe, and comment. Another great conversation with Felers. Like Josh, I'm just I'm sitting here, man. We
45:25 could definitely have done this for another hour, but I know you got things to do. I'm infra. This is Josh. We'll catch you on the next one. Platus.
41:17 Josh Goldberg, CEO of Boulder Crest Foundation, shares his journey from corporate executive to suicidal crisis to leading an organization that served 43,000 people last year through post-traumatic growth programs.

In this raw conversation, you'll learn:
✅ The exact moment Josh realized he'd built "a false existence" despite external success
✅ How helping others became the path out of his own suicidal ideation
✅ The three-year wilderness period between crisis and clarity—and what he learned
✅ How Boulder Crest grew from serving 700 to 43,000 people annually without losing culture
✅ Why "unfuck yourself" became the turning point for sustainable service
✅ Scaling nonprofit impact from 35 to 86 staff while maintaining mission-driven culture

This episode is perfect for nonprofit leaders, executive directors, and mission-driven professionals navigating burnout, organizational growth, or questioning their own career path.

⏱️ TIMESTAMPS:
6:30 345 episodes

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