Dr. Raymond Garcia on Leading 1,800+ Healthcare Workers Without Ego

Welcome back to the Heart Hustle Podcast. Our next guest, Dr. Raymond Garcia, that says, "Listen, at some point I realized medicine wasn't just science. It was storytelling and healing." So, Dr. Raymond, Dr. Raymond, Dr. Garcia, what do we call you here by the way before we continue? Dr. Raymond's fine. All right, Dr. Raymond. So, listen, you you say this is you realize that it was uh it was it wasn't storytelling or it was storytelling. When did you realize that? Yeah. Um well, you know, uh a big part of what I do as a psychiatrist is is really uh hear and listen to people's stories. So as I really got into the swing of practice um and heard more and more stories, it became uh you know really evident to me that uh you know that's an important part a really important part of knowing how to help people is to be able to to listen to their stories and learn from it. And then that's where you kind of hear the real message of, you know, what's really going on with them and and what do they need? You know, how can you help? Um so yeah. Yeah, it was really as as I just continued to practice. Do you remember the these moments as you were growing up that you thought you had to choose between uh science and also being creative? Oh yes. Uh very much so because uh you know as much as I loved science uh also there was this uh very uh uh creative drive in me as well. Well, I mean, one of my considerations for, you know, for career was to be a writer, to, you know, maybe uh go into screenwriting or something like that in the entertainment field cuz I I wanted to create and uh but that was kind of the happy accident, if you will, that that came along with practice was um as I discovered, you know, the storytelling aspects of of practicing psychiatry and addiction medicine, uh it allowed me to use that creativity as well, um you know, in my practice. and in in working with people. Tell people tell to the listeners what are you doing today? What what is your your title currently in the organization that you're with? So I am chief medical officer for Rose Crants Behavioral Health. Uh we are a uh comprehensive program that offer offers uh uh treatment for uh mental health and addiction uh you know addiction uh medical problems. Um so for people with mental illness, people with addiction issues, uh substance use disorders, um you know, we provide uh both uh residential treatment and outpatient services as well in the Midwest. Amazing. What do what do you think your younger self doctor would would um would think of you and the man that you become today? You we talked about the like the early days, but now that you're in it, you're living it. What do you think your younger self would say? Oh my gosh, my younger self would not believe it. uh you know my younger self would be uh really I think uh kind of uh in uh you know I don't I don't want to say in awe maybe really surprised because my younger self was uh very uh you know uh very uh shy uh you know uh very you know not not the kind of person that would uh you know that would be on a live pot on a podcast like this. I was going to say that. Yeah. um you know, you know, my younger self was the kind of person who kind of stood to the background a little bit. Um you know, and uh but but certainly had, you know, had aspirations and uh you know, would look from the sidelines and be I wish I could do that. So, uh my younger self would be, yeah, I think really surprised, but also uh uh probably really uh really happy to see see where uh where uh they've gone. Talking about happiness, one of the things that you mentioned to me was that um it's more than a paycheck, right? Um you said it means more than a paycheck. What's a moment that really drove that home for you? Um well uh you know yeah obvious yeah certainly more than a paycheck. It's about not to sound cliche but uh it's it's really about helping people and helping more people and um you know it's that you know it's that moment when you know you help somebody who then uh comes back and tells you uh at some point you know thank you you know you really made a difference um you know you I mean when somebody tells you you saved my life um you know or you made that difference um you helped me make that right choice um you know those are the moments that really uh you know um uh make you want to keep doing what you're doing. Those are the rewards. So um yeah, the first time you hear something like that is really powerful. Yeah, I'm I'm a big believer that life is not even about us, right? It's about others at times. And of course, taking care of ourselves is highly important, mental health, all that. Some of the things that you guys uh really work on, but I think as a as a human being in these spaces and being blessed with the opportunities that it's not about us, it's it's a passion. It's a purpose. We mentioned it's not about the paycheck. And I love that. And I love that you also still see patients. I think people may not know that, but why not hang up the white coat and go for executive? I think you can do that, right? Sure you can. Um, and you know, there are people who choose that path and that's the right path for them, but not for me. For me, um, you know, continuing to see patients, um, helps keep me grounded. Um, it helps keep me, uh, my pulse on the beat, you know, of of, uh, current practice. Um, it keeps fresh. Um but also uh there again there's that connection part of it you know it it keeps that um that part of practice alive of of maintaining that human connection getting that that feedback from patients um you know that that reward I don't want to let go of that no for sure when you just love it you love it you know when it it part does it still feel like work to you actually you know uh uh of course any job uh you know can feel like work sometimes but no I I mean most of the time this is you know a lot actually a lot of psychiatrists will tell you that uh you know a lot of psychiatrists will tell you that uh they enjoy what they're doing so much that they don't even think about retiring. Um, you know, I I've the people that I've modeled myself after, my mentors, you know, I know many of them who worked well past retirement age, um, because they love what they do. And I I'm discovering the same thing, you know, uh, it's just, uh, it's a joy, you know, to be, uh, and a privilege to be able to do this. That goes back to that passion, right? Like you have so much passion that you don't want to hang up that code either. So, I love that you're there. you you talked about kind of go back earlier science and creativity where do they actually show up in how you choose um treatments because I think there's there's both that play a part in that. Well, yeah. Uh certainly of course there's the science in terms of the more we learn uh and discover about the brain. Um you know that is the really uh interesting uh part of it the of the science and learning how things uh work and how can we uh you know uh enact change or you know induce changes in the brain to help people to change their behavior for for the better for the positive. But then there's also that creativity uh that comes with um uh you know uh again listening to the stories um that people tell you to be able to help figure that out because it's not just about symptoms. It's not just about you know what's the heartbeat, what's the, you know, rate of breathing um what's the temperature. It's about what's, you know, what's going on in somebody's life that can give you that clue. Um, you know, those clues and to, okay, maybe that's, you know, what's contributing to, uh, these behaviors that are, you know, that are maladaptive. Um, and then, uh, you know, choosing treatments. There's an art to that. There's a creativity to that because, um, you know, uh, as much as we're learning more and more, um, there's a lot we don't know. uh if you look at the mechanism of action for an anti-depressant, the first thing it'll say is we don't know exactly how these things work, but these are the theories. Um and so, you know, with that comes uncertainty. And so, you have to be creative in terms of uh you know, figuring out what are the right uh you know, uh combinations or or you know, choices for for treatment options for people. Such a good space to be in for you. And I you one thing I really want to talk about creativity is I remember growing up thinking a creative had to be an artist and now I'm a little older. I'm like we're all creative in our own ways and what you're doing, right? You get to really bring that creativity. I don't know when you found out that you know creativeness was in all of us. It wasn't just being an artist. But it is just so cool when I hear what you're saying and how you love the science, but you also love the creative side of it and how you kind of mix them in. And I can imagine that you poss possibly also have patients that come in thinking they've tried everything. And that's where the creative juices really start flowing because now you really got to show them like, wait, um, we're here to show you that there's still something that truly works. You just got to find those pieces. And then everybody's a little bit different as well. Correct. Mhm. Absolutely. Absolutely. Um, you know, I I firmly believe that, uh, you know, in in behavioral health science, uh, we're, you know, we're we're in the business of selling hope, you know, uh, because, uh, uh, that's what people need to to go on. And, um, yes, we can be creative. Maybe you think you've tried everything, but there's, you know, there's often something else. uh there's some other you know either I mean you know there are definitely newer treatments that are coming you know that are in the pipeline or that are coming online you know rapidly these days but also there are different ways of looking at things maybe you know maybe you didn't get the right diagnosis you know or maybe there's more going on um you know maybe somebody else didn't hear that part of the story for you that now we're hearing or maybe you weren't ready to tell it and now you're ready to tell it and so that helps us to understand even more um and that gives us you know uh better uh you know uh better treatment options. Yeah. And then when you talk about like a different like maybe this person had a better experience with someone else or vice versa. It goes kind of back to I think experience and we're in a space right now where experience is changing a lot I guess in this space possibly because of the AI. Um, are you guys using AI, you know, to for I know some people are using it for like note takingaking. Is there other ways like for communication, what does that look like nowadays when there's so much AI as well where we getting people to probably go and use AI than actually reaching out to a real person? I think there's so many different ways we really can kind of dig this conversation. But if we can kind of just start where are you guys at at the AI space? Okay. Absolutely. First of all, I'd like to uh, you know, define AI uh, in terms of what it means to me, what it means to our organization. We we prefer to look at AI as augmented intelligence, not artificial intelligence, you know, with the idea that it is a way to enhance our, you know, our abilities and our skills. It's a way to help, you know, it's another tool. Um, it's not something to replace, you know. Um, so uh uh we we are like you said, we're uh using it in terms of documentation where, you know, we're just getting into that. Um I myself have been piloting that use of AI for the past year or so now uh to help with documentation but also we are you know uh starting to learn how to use AI to analyze data. Um you know how can we use uh AI to get people to services quicker? um you know uh how can we use AI to help with um you know uh reviewing records um and getting pulling out the really necessary information um so that uh you know we can get people the help that they need um whether it's uh in terms of making helping us make treatment decisions or or maybe even helping us uh get uh payers to approve treatment um you know that's uh another uh use case. Um, we're uh also learning how to use AI uh for education purposes. You know, how can we supplement our educational offerings both to our staff and to our clients, to our patients um by uh helping AI that can aggregate information um and help source information so that we can uh provide better educational offerings. Um, so there's, yeah, there are many ways that the AI could be used ants, you know, to augment, uh, you know, augment. No, I like that, too. And, and I love that you put it that way because it really kind of shows why it does matter, right? In in reality. Um, and I love how you guys are thinking about it and really allowing AI allow you to be more human with a patient. I think all these different things you're talking about allow you to just be really in tune what that experience looks like. Because let's be honest, I think that's one of the biggest things people also hate about visiting a doctor, right? Is that experience that you have. It's not what it used to be where it was that family, the doctor that knew about who truly I was. Um, and even for myself, I think I had a visit recently and I thought to myself that this lady did not know anything about me. And when I actually said, "Hey, you you met my wife last week." And she's just like agreeing. And I'm thinking like, "Oh, having a conversation cuz that's who I am." To find out that was even the same doctor. She was just saying yes because she was just kind of going with the motion, right? Asking the questions, but it's the experience. How did I feel now that that lady really wasn't authentically being herself? Not because she didn't want to, but ideally it's just kind of the system that it plays. And I think with a lot of this augmentation, as you mentioned, we could really do more of the things that we love and let a lot of these repetitive tasks um and the smartness behind it all really when you get to feed it. What is one of the biggest things you learned about AI and how to use AI? I think that's where people also have this fear is like they just don't even know where to start. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, even just with that documentation piece, I mean, you know, by allowing, you know, the AI to worry about the documentation piece, I can focus on you, the patient. You know, I'm not sitting here typing on my screen or writing notes, I'm listening to you and uh, you know, hearing you and remembering who you are, remembering that I met your wife, you know, rather than, you know, just typing it away and forgetting about it. I love that. No, it's it's definitely a game changer. I I'm enjoying it. I was one of those that my friend told me about AI chat GPT years ago and to me it was like anything else like all right whatever and then maybe the last two years really tapped into it I'm like wow what a game changer and now understanding the conversation more seeing when people don't use it there's still people that do not use AI like my mom I was telling her one day about uh chat GPT I said mom do you use chat GPT and she's like what and I say it again and she's like what is that I'm like just never mind like and not that they don't use AI everyone's using AI because it's on their phones. They just don't see it as AI. They just don't know it. Yeah. Hell, when you talk to I have a friend, I don't know if you're maybe your house is like this, doctor. You have Amazon and Siri all around the house. Alexa, actually, is what it is, Alexa? Yeah. Yeah. I go to my friend's house and he'll be like, "Alexa, turn the light green." Or, "Alexa, turn this on." I'm like, "Oh my god, that is AI at its finest." You know, um I'm not there yet. I'm not there. Do you have that at your house? I have a little bit of it. Uh, you know, in fact, I was uh on vacation recently away from those things and I was just joking with my partner and uh you know, saying out loud, "Alexa, what's the weather?" You know, and she would laugh. That is funny. No, man. So many people really just live off of that. That is hilarious. What do you say to young clinicians who are kind of burnt out um before they even begin? I think that's also something that's been kind of going around. Mhm. Well, I think it's important to just uh you know, first of all, remember remember why you're doing what you're doing, right? I mean, yeah, it can be very easy to get burnt out by all the you know, all the peripheral stuff uh you know, the you know, the red tape, the you know, policies, etc. Um remember why you're doing what you're doing and who you're doing it for. You know, you're doing it for your patients, right? Uh first of all, because you want to help and uh and then you're doing it for yourself for that satisfaction of making that connection and helping people. Um, you know, altruism is is is not uh pure in the sense that you're not purely doing it for somebody else. You're doing it because it makes you feel good. Um, also and uh you know, so uh uh yeah, I think it's important to stay grounded. Why are you doing what you're doing? You know, start with that. Uh and that is never going to change. If the Heart and Hustle podcast has ever sparked any idea or made you think differently, do us a favor. Make sure to guys share this, post it on LinkedIn, or even text that nonprofit friend that you just have. Whatever works. This is what keeps the conversation going and allows us to just grow this community together. Seriously, we appreciate you. Yeah, the Y is big. And I know you mentioned your W earlier, which is why you said you were not just drop the uh white code and and do the executive role, but let's say CEO roles uh opportunity comes. Are you thinking about it or or what you doing there at that point? No, no, no, no. That that is not the space for me. I respect uh you know the people who are uh in that role and uh I certainly appreciate them but that is not for me. That is more you know kind of outward facing and uh you know I mean like I said before I'm surprised that I am where I am being able to you know interact with people at this level. Um but uh that's a whole another level of outward facing interactions that uh that's just not for me. I I'm good here, you know, and plus I prefer to stay, you know, with the clin clinical um you know, uh uh expertise. Um you know, that's that's where my expertise lies is in the clinical realm. Um you know, working with people, working with medicine, working with the science um uh you know, um as opposed to the operation side of things. I mean, there's some of that of course that I have to do, but uh it's not my main focus. It's my main focus is still working on, you know, how how are we helping people from a medical perspective? I love that. Is this what you wanted to do like even leaving high school? Like this is where you wanted to be at this space? I wanted to be a physician that's for sure. I did not know back then what kind of physician. Um but uh uh as far as uh you know getting uh to this level as far as you know leadership uh I had that hadn't even entered my mind at that point. My my you know my main goal then was I want to be a doctor. I want to help people. Um what does that look like? Um and uh figuring that out. But uh uh yeah, it's it's definitely been uh you know quite a a journey, quite a ride. And uh it's been fun. You know, I'm the kind of person that says yes. You know, I'm the kind of person that you know challenge comes along and I say yes. And somehow I work my way into yes all the way up to this position. That's it. That that's work ethic. Nowadays, it's not easy to find something like this. Okay, Raymond. So, you have work ethic uh that we people look for. When I think about what you just mentioned as well though, just kind of doing it because you knew you wanted to do it. Leadership presented itself thinking want to be a doctor and in reality being a doctor is a leader, right? You still have to there's things that you have to lead. What are some of the things when you talk about leadership that you live by? So, if you're talking to those young individuals, if you want to give some leadership tips and advice, what does that sound like from Dr. Raymond? Okay. Um well uh I've definitely learned a lot about uh leadership uh you know as I've uh you know gone through different levels of it through the years. Um uh I think it's important to um to lead with compassion. Um to lead with grace um you know uh I think it's important to be an active listener um and not just a speaker. you know, you don't want to be the kind of leader who's going to be in the, you know, at the meeting doing all the talking. I think, uh, it's even more important to do more listening so that you understand what's going on and where your staff is at, what the people you get to supervise at, and, uh, then that gives you, you know, the kind of information you need so that you can lead more, you know, more effectively and efficiently. Also, I think as a leader, it's important to also be willing to, you know, don't forget where you came from. be willing to, you know, to to get down in the trenches when you have to. You know, there are times that come up when, you know, uh whether it's staffing issues or, you know, whatever emergencies, etc., you got to learn how to still get your hands dirty. You know, you you never ask somebody to do something that you are not willing to do yourself. You know, I think that's a lesson. That's a good one right there. That's actually a really good one. That is 100%. Um, so I'm going to flip this a little bit and say we all learn from good leaders and bad leaders. What is one thing you learned from a bad leader that uh you still recall to today? Uh probably the biggest thing is ego. Uh you know to to lead with ego uh you know when it's when you're leading with ego and you're making it all about yourself then you know I don't think anybody benefits from that not even yourself in the long run. Um you know so uh I think as a leader it's really important to get ego out of the way get yourself out of the way get out of your own way. That is true. A lot of the times that's what uh stops someone from being successful in a sense as you mentioned is that ego getting out of your own way. see it all the time whether it's entrepreneur whether it's in the corporate world really why sometimes I hated the corporate world man I loved it you know I love to scale scale scale and then when you get to that point where you're kind of going up against someone with that ego you're like this this this is not for me you know so I hear you that's actually really really good one um as we kind of start to close up man we talk about the organization is this something that is is local is this something that you guys are nationwide like we can kind of talk about um that location wise and some more of the services so as we start to wrap up people know exactly where to reach out, how to reach out. Yeah. Um actually, uh yeah, we are a Midwestern organization. We started out in Rockford, Illinois, but we have expanded our presence throughout uh Illinois. Um you know, we go as far south as Champagne. Um we have a uh an expanding presence in Chicago. Um uh we also have a large presence in uh in Iowa. Um a growing presence in Wisconsin. and we plan to expand to um to Indiana uh very soon uh at least starting with the border uh to Illinois. So yes, we're a Midwestern company, but we're growing. I love it. I love it. And then if they can uh find you socials, what are the website? Are you guys on social? Yes. Yes. rosecrants.org you would find us. uh you know and that would lead you to all of our programs throughout the you know three current states that we're at and uh and growing. How many locations is that through three states? Is it just one location? If you if you count all the locations you know different sizes etc. Uh we are uh I believe we're above 70. Wow. Yeah. And and how long you've been with them? You seen that grow from like the start or what did that look like? Al so I am in my 16th year uh working full-time for Rose Crants. Uh and when I first started uh yeah we were you know we were just in Rockford. We were a small mom and pop organization and uh now we're a company of well over 1,800 employees. Oh you've had a lot of fun there man. Oh yeah. I love it. I love to see those from the ground up for sure. Yeah. and to see that you're still happy that obviously the culture has been created really well there because that's that's huge culture in a place where you can be there that long still have the same kind of love someone did a really good job and I'm not alone in this I mean you know I have you know uh fellow leaders who have been here who have grown up here you know our CEO uh you know has been with the company for 30 years so wow yeah oh yeah you guys are legends over there man you guys are doing it up well listen now I'll leave you with this hot this this blind questions is what we love to do. If you couldn't be a doctor tomorrow, what would you do that still helps people? Because that's what you love to do, right? You love to heal, help people. Sure. So, what would you be doing? What would I be doing if I couldn't be a doctor? H I think it would be cheating to say if I could be a counselor because that's almost um I mean, not really. Not really. I guess it's kind of a little different there. um you know I I would try to figure out a way to use my skills like maybe um you know in a way that's more behind the scenes like can I work um you know in some place where you know you're developing uh you know programs and policies that uh you know uh are in the same space helping out uh you know how to run a program um you know uh so not as active um or uh uh you know or or maybe uh I I think stories you know we started out talking about story I think stories help people maybe I'd go to that and explore that you know that was where I started like you know when I was growing up was thinking about being a writer right so maybe uh maybe I'll start writing and uh figure out you know how to do some writing that may be you know helpful to people Dr. Raymond we're going to leave it on that I'm an accountability I'd love to be an accountability partner you said written a book you still have time you're still young so at some point Dr. Raymond, I'm looking for this book. I'm just saying, okay, you got time. You got a little bit of AI and you have this passion of creativeness. So, I I can imagine there's so much that you can talk about. But Dr. Raymond, thank you so much for your time. Truly an honor to just have this time here with you to learn more about your organization, more about yourself and the leader that is um a part of this organization. You mentioned huge organization with so many great leaders and you're just a part of it. So, thank you so much guys. If you guys are still watching, make sure you do like, subscribe, and comment. We'll catch you on the next one. I'm Frra. This is Dr. Raven, thanks. Welcome back to the Heart Hustle Podcast. Our next guest, Dr. Raymond Garcia, that says, "Listen, at some point I realized medicine wasn't just science. It was storytelling and healing." So, Dr. Raymond, Dr. Raymond, Dr. Garcia, what do we call you here by the way before we continue? Dr. Raymond's fine. All right, Dr. Raymond. So, listen, you you say this is you realize that it was uh it was it wasn't storytelling or it was storytelling. When did you realize that? Yeah. Um well, you know, uh a big part of what I do as a psychiatrist is is really uh hear and listen to people's stories. So as I really got into the swing of practice um and heard more and more stories, it became uh you know really evident to me that uh you know that's an important part a really important part of knowing how to help people is to be able to to listen to their stories and learn from it. And then that's where you kind of hear the real message of, you know, what's really going on with them and and what do they need? You know, how can you help? Um so yeah. Yeah, it was really as as I just continued to practice. Do you remember the these moments as you were growing up that you thought you had to choose between uh science and also being creative? Oh yes. Uh very much so because uh you know as much as I loved science uh also there was this uh very uh uh creative drive in me as well. Well, I mean, one of my considerations for, you know, for career was to be a writer, to, you know, maybe uh go into screenwriting or something like that in the entertainment field cuz I I wanted to create and uh but that was kind of the happy accident, if you will, that that came along with practice was um as I discovered, you know, the storytelling aspects of of practicing psychiatry and addiction medicine, uh it allowed me to use that creativity as well, um you know, in my practice. and in in working with people. Tell people tell to the listeners what are you doing today? What what is your your title currently in the organization that you're with? So I am chief medical officer for Rose Crants Behavioral Health. Uh we are a uh comprehensive program that offer offers uh uh treatment for uh mental health and addiction uh you know addiction uh medical problems. Um so for people with mental illness, people with addiction issues, uh substance use disorders, um you know, we provide uh both uh residential treatment and outpatient services as well in the Midwest. Amazing. What do what do you think your younger self doctor would would um would think of you and the man that you become today? You we talked about the like the early days, but now that you're in it, you're living it. What do you think your younger self would say? Oh my gosh, my younger self would not believe it. uh you know my younger self would be uh really I think uh kind of uh in uh you know I don't I don't want to say in awe maybe really surprised because my younger self was uh very uh you know uh very uh shy uh you know uh very you know not not the kind of person that would uh you know that would be on a live pot on a podcast like this. I was going to say that. Yeah. um you know, you know, my younger self was the kind of person who kind of stood to the background a little bit. Um you know, and uh but but certainly had, you know, had aspirations and uh you know, would look from the sidelines and be I wish I could do that. So, uh my younger self would be, yeah, I think really surprised, but also uh uh probably really uh really happy to see see where uh where uh they've gone. Talking about happiness, one of the things that you mentioned to me was that um it's more than a paycheck, right? Um you said it means more than a paycheck. What's a moment that really drove that home for you? Um well uh you know yeah obvious yeah certainly more than a paycheck. It's about not to sound cliche but uh it's it's really about helping people and helping more people and um you know it's that you know it's that moment when you know you help somebody who then uh comes back and tells you uh at some point you know thank you you know you really made a difference um you know you I mean when somebody tells you you saved my life um you know or you made that difference um you helped me make that right choice um you know those are the moments that really uh you know um uh make you want to keep doing what you're doing. Those are the rewards. So um yeah, the first time you hear something like that is really powerful. Yeah, I'm I'm a big believer that life is not even about us, right? It's about others at times. And of course, taking care of ourselves is highly important, mental health, all that. Some of the things that you guys uh really work on, but I think as a as a human being in these spaces and being blessed with the opportunities that it's not about us, it's it's a passion. It's a purpose. We mentioned it's not about the paycheck. And I love that. And I love that you also still see patients. I think people may not know that, but why not hang up the white coat and go for executive? I think you can do that, right? Sure you can. Um, and you know, there are people who choose that path and that's the right path for them, but not for me. For me, um, you know, continuing to see patients, um, helps keep me grounded. Um, it helps keep me, uh, my pulse on the beat, you know, of of, uh, current practice. Um, it keeps fresh. Um but also uh there again there's that connection part of it you know it it keeps that um that part of practice alive of of maintaining that human connection getting that that feedback from patients um you know that that reward I don't want to let go of that no for sure when you just love it you love it you know when it it part does it still feel like work to you actually you know uh uh of course any job uh you know can feel like work sometimes but no I I mean most of the time this is you know a lot actually a lot of psychiatrists will tell you that uh you know a lot of psychiatrists will tell you that uh they enjoy what they're doing so much that they don't even think about retiring. Um, you know, I I've the people that I've modeled myself after, my mentors, you know, I know many of them who worked well past retirement age, um, because they love what they do. And I I'm discovering the same thing, you know, uh, it's just, uh, it's a joy, you know, to be, uh, and a privilege to be able to do this. That goes back to that passion, right? Like you have so much passion that you don't want to hang up that code either. So, I love that you're there. you you talked about kind of go back earlier science and creativity where do they actually show up in how you choose um treatments because I think there's there's both that play a part in that. Well, yeah. Uh certainly of course there's the science in terms of the more we learn uh and discover about the brain. Um you know that is the really uh interesting uh part of it the of the science and learning how things uh work and how can we uh you know uh enact change or you know induce changes in the brain to help people to change their behavior for for the better for the positive. But then there's also that creativity uh that comes with um uh you know uh again listening to the stories um that people tell you to be able to help figure that out because it's not just about symptoms. It's not just about you know what's the heartbeat, what's the, you know, rate of breathing um what's the temperature. It's about what's, you know, what's going on in somebody's life that can give you that clue. Um, you know, those clues and to, okay, maybe that's, you know, what's contributing to, uh, these behaviors that are, you know, that are maladaptive. Um, and then, uh, you know, choosing treatments. There's an art to that. There's a creativity to that because, um, you know, uh, as much as we're learning more and more, um, there's a lot we don't know. uh if you look at the mechanism of action for an anti-depressant, the first thing it'll say is we don't know exactly how these things work, but these are the theories. Um and so, you know, with that comes uncertainty. And so, you have to be creative in terms of uh you know, figuring out what are the right uh you know, uh combinations or or you know, choices for for treatment options for people. Such a good space to be in for you. And I you one thing I really want to talk about creativity is I remember growing up thinking a creative had to be an artist and now I'm a little older. I'm like we're all creative in our own ways and what you're doing, right? You get to really bring that creativity. I don't know when you found out that you know creativeness was in all of us. It wasn't just being an artist. But it is just so cool when I hear what you're saying and how you love the science, but you also love the creative side of it and how you kind of mix them in. And I can imagine that you poss possibly also have patients that come in thinking they've tried everything. And that's where the creative juices really start flowing because now you really got to show them like, wait, um, we're here to show you that there's still something that truly works. You just got to find those pieces. And then everybody's a little bit different as well. Correct. Mhm. Absolutely. Absolutely. Um, you know, I I firmly believe that, uh, you know, in in behavioral health science, uh, we're, you know, we're we're in the business of selling hope, you know, uh, because, uh, uh, that's what people need to to go on. And, um, yes, we can be creative. Maybe you think you've tried everything, but there's, you know, there's often something else. uh there's some other you know either I mean you know there are definitely newer treatments that are coming you know that are in the pipeline or that are coming online you know rapidly these days but also there are different ways of looking at things maybe you know maybe you didn't get the right diagnosis you know or maybe there's more going on um you know maybe somebody else didn't hear that part of the story for you that now we're hearing or maybe you weren't ready to tell it and now you're ready to tell it and so that helps us to understand even more um and that gives us you know uh better uh you know uh better treatment options. Yeah. And then when you talk about like a different like maybe this person had a better experience with someone else or vice versa. It goes kind of back to I think experience and we're in a space right now where experience is changing a lot I guess in this space possibly because of the AI. Um, are you guys using AI, you know, to for I know some people are using it for like note takingaking. Is there other ways like for communication, what does that look like nowadays when there's so much AI as well where we getting people to probably go and use AI than actually reaching out to a real person? I think there's so many different ways we really can kind of dig this conversation. But if we can kind of just start where are you guys at at the AI space? Okay. Absolutely. First of all, I'd like to uh, you know, define AI uh, in terms of what it means to me, what it means to our organization. We we prefer to look at AI as augmented intelligence, not artificial intelligence, you know, with the idea that it is a way to enhance our, you know, our abilities and our skills. It's a way to help, you know, it's another tool. Um, it's not something to replace, you know. Um, so uh uh we we are like you said, we're uh using it in terms of documentation where, you know, we're just getting into that. Um I myself have been piloting that use of AI for the past year or so now uh to help with documentation but also we are you know uh starting to learn how to use AI to analyze data. Um you know how can we use uh AI to get people to services quicker? um you know uh how can we use AI to help with um you know uh reviewing records um and getting pulling out the really necessary information um so that uh you know we can get people the help that they need um whether it's uh in terms of making helping us make treatment decisions or or maybe even helping us uh get uh payers to approve treatment um you know that's uh another uh use case. Um, we're uh also learning how to use AI uh for education purposes. You know, how can we supplement our educational offerings both to our staff and to our clients, to our patients um by uh helping AI that can aggregate information um and help source information so that we can uh provide better educational offerings. Um, so there's, yeah, there are many ways that the AI could be used ants, you know, to augment, uh, you know, augment. No, I like that, too. And, and I love that you put it that way because it really kind of shows why it does matter, right? In in reality. Um, and I love how you guys are thinking about it and really allowing AI allow you to be more human with a patient. I think all these different things you're talking about allow you to just be really in tune what that experience looks like. Because let's be honest, I think that's one of the biggest things people also hate about visiting a doctor, right? Is that experience that you have. It's not what it used to be where it was that family, the doctor that knew about who truly I was. Um, and even for myself, I think I had a visit recently and I thought to myself that this lady did not know anything about me. And when I actually said, "Hey, you you met my wife last week." And she's just like agreeing. And I'm thinking like, "Oh, having a conversation cuz that's who I am." To find out that was even the same doctor. She was just saying yes because she was just kind of going with the motion, right? Asking the questions, but it's the experience. How did I feel now that that lady really wasn't authentically being herself? Not because she didn't want to, but ideally it's just kind of the system that it plays. And I think with a lot of this augmentation, as you mentioned, we could really do more of the things that we love and let a lot of these repetitive tasks um and the smartness behind it all really when you get to feed it. What is one of the biggest things you learned about AI and how to use AI? I think that's where people also have this fear is like they just don't even know where to start. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, even just with that documentation piece, I mean, you know, by allowing, you know, the AI to worry about the documentation piece, I can focus on you, the patient. You know, I'm not sitting here typing on my screen or writing notes, I'm listening to you and uh, you know, hearing you and remembering who you are, remembering that I met your wife, you know, rather than, you know, just typing it away and forgetting about it. I love that. No, it's it's definitely a game changer. I I'm enjoying it. I was one of those that my friend told me about AI chat GPT years ago and to me it was like anything else like all right whatever and then maybe the last two years really tapped into it I'm like wow what a game changer and now understanding the conversation more seeing when people don't use it there's still people that do not use AI like my mom I was telling her one day about uh chat GPT I said mom do you use chat GPT and she's like what and I say it again and she's like what is that I'm like just never mind like and not that they don't use AI everyone's using AI because it's on their phones. They just don't see it as AI. They just don't know it. Yeah. Hell, when you talk to I have a friend, I don't know if you're maybe your house is like this, doctor. You have Amazon and Siri all around the house. Alexa, actually, is what it is, Alexa? Yeah. Yeah. I go to my friend's house and he'll be like, "Alexa, turn the light green." Or, "Alexa, turn this on." I'm like, "Oh my god, that is AI at its finest." You know, um I'm not there yet. I'm not there. Do you have that at your house? I have a little bit of it. Uh, you know, in fact, I was uh on vacation recently away from those things and I was just joking with my partner and uh you know, saying out loud, "Alexa, what's the weather?" You know, and she would laugh. That is funny. No, man. So many people really just live off of that. That is hilarious. What do you say to young clinicians who are kind of burnt out um before they even begin? I think that's also something that's been kind of going around. Mhm. Well, I think it's important to just uh you know, first of all, remember remember why you're doing what you're doing, right? I mean, yeah, it can be very easy to get burnt out by all the you know, all the peripheral stuff uh you know, the you know, the red tape, the you know, policies, etc. Um remember why you're doing what you're doing and who you're doing it for. You know, you're doing it for your patients, right? Uh first of all, because you want to help and uh and then you're doing it for yourself for that satisfaction of making that connection and helping people. Um, you know, altruism is is is not uh pure in the sense that you're not purely doing it for somebody else. You're doing it because it makes you feel good. Um, also and uh you know, so uh uh yeah, I think it's important to stay grounded. Why are you doing what you're doing? You know, start with that. Uh and that is never going to change. If the Heart and Hustle podcast has ever sparked any idea or made you think differently, do us a favor. Make sure to guys share this, post it on LinkedIn, or even text that nonprofit friend that you just have. Whatever works. This is what keeps the conversation going and allows us to just grow this community together. Seriously, we appreciate you. Yeah, the Y is big. And I know you mentioned your W earlier, which is why you said you were not just drop the uh white code and and do the executive role, but let's say CEO roles uh opportunity comes. Are you thinking about it or or what you doing there at that point? No, no, no, no. That that is not the space for me. I respect uh you know the people who are uh in that role and uh I certainly appreciate them but that is not for me. That is more you know kind of outward facing and uh you know I mean like I said before I'm surprised that I am where I am being able to you know interact with people at this level. Um but uh that's a whole another level of outward facing interactions that uh that's just not for me. I I'm good here, you know, and plus I prefer to stay, you know, with the clin clinical um you know, uh uh expertise. Um you know, that's that's where my expertise lies is in the clinical realm. Um you know, working with people, working with medicine, working with the science um uh you know, um as opposed to the operation side of things. I mean, there's some of that of course that I have to do, but uh it's not my main focus. It's my main focus is still working on, you know, how how are we helping people from a medical perspective? I love that. Is this what you wanted to do like even leaving high school? Like this is where you wanted to be at this space? I wanted to be a physician that's for sure. I did not know back then what kind of physician. Um but uh uh as far as uh you know getting uh to this level as far as you know leadership uh I had that hadn't even entered my mind at that point. My my you know my main goal then was I want to be a doctor. I want to help people. Um what does that look like? Um and uh figuring that out. But uh uh yeah, it's it's definitely been uh you know quite a a journey, quite a ride. And uh it's been fun. You know, I'm the kind of person that says yes. You know, I'm the kind of person that you know challenge comes along and I say yes. And somehow I work my way into yes all the way up to this position. That's it. That that's work ethic. Nowadays, it's not easy to find something like this. Okay, Raymond. So, you have work ethic uh that we people look for. When I think about what you just mentioned as well though, just kind of doing it because you knew you wanted to do it. Leadership presented itself thinking want to be a doctor and in reality being a doctor is a leader, right? You still have to there's things that you have to lead. What are some of the things when you talk about leadership that you live by? So, if you're talking to those young individuals, if you want to give some leadership tips and advice, what does that sound like from Dr. Raymond? Okay. Um well uh I've definitely learned a lot about uh leadership uh you know as I've uh you know gone through different levels of it through the years. Um uh I think it's important to um to lead with compassion. Um to lead with grace um you know uh I think it's important to be an active listener um and not just a speaker. you know, you don't want to be the kind of leader who's going to be in the, you know, at the meeting doing all the talking. I think, uh, it's even more important to do more listening so that you understand what's going on and where your staff is at, what the people you get to supervise at, and, uh, then that gives you, you know, the kind of information you need so that you can lead more, you know, more effectively and efficiently. Also, I think as a leader, it's important to also be willing to, you know, don't forget where you came from. be willing to, you know, to to get down in the trenches when you have to. You know, there are times that come up when, you know, uh whether it's staffing issues or, you know, whatever emergencies, etc., you got to learn how to still get your hands dirty. You know, you you never ask somebody to do something that you are not willing to do yourself. You know, I think that's a lesson. That's a good one right there. That's actually a really good one. That is 100%. Um, so I'm going to flip this a little bit and say we all learn from good leaders and bad leaders. What is one thing you learned from a bad leader that uh you still recall to today? Uh probably the biggest thing is ego. Uh you know to to lead with ego uh you know when it's when you're leading with ego and you're making it all about yourself then you know I don't think anybody benefits from that not even yourself in the long run. Um you know so uh I think as a leader it's really important to get ego out of the way get yourself out of the way get out of your own way. That is true. A lot of the times that's what uh stops someone from being successful in a sense as you mentioned is that ego getting out of your own way. see it all the time whether it's entrepreneur whether it's in the corporate world really why sometimes I hated the corporate world man I loved it you know I love to scale scale scale and then when you get to that point where you're kind of going up against someone with that ego you're like this this this is not for me you know so I hear you that's actually really really good one um as we kind of start to close up man we talk about the organization is this something that is is local is this something that you guys are nationwide like we can kind of talk about um that location wise and some more of the services so as we start to wrap up people know exactly where to reach out, how to reach out. Yeah. Um actually, uh yeah, we are a Midwestern organization. We started out in Rockford, Illinois, but we have expanded our presence throughout uh Illinois. Um you know, we go as far south as Champagne. Um we have a uh an expanding presence in Chicago. Um uh we also have a large presence in uh in Iowa. Um a growing presence in Wisconsin. and we plan to expand to um to Indiana uh very soon uh at least starting with the border uh to Illinois. So yes, we're a Midwestern company, but we're growing. I love it. I love it. And then if they can uh find you socials, what are the website? Are you guys on social? Yes. Yes. rosecrants.org you would find us. uh you know and that would lead you to all of our programs throughout the you know three current states that we're at and uh and growing. How many locations is that through three states? Is it just one location? If you if you count all the locations you know different sizes etc. Uh we are uh I believe we're above 70. Wow. Yeah. And and how long you've been with them? You seen that grow from like the start or what did that look like? Al so I am in my 16th year uh working full-time for Rose Crants. Uh and when I first started uh yeah we were you know we were just in Rockford. We were a small mom and pop organization and uh now we're a company of well over 1,800 employees. Oh you've had a lot of fun there man. Oh yeah. I love it. I love to see those from the ground up for sure. Yeah. and to see that you're still happy that obviously the culture has been created really well there because that's that's huge culture in a place where you can be there that long still have the same kind of love someone did a really good job and I'm not alone in this I mean you know I have you know uh fellow leaders who have been here who have grown up here you know our CEO uh you know has been with the company for 30 years so wow yeah oh yeah you guys are legends over there man you guys are doing it up well listen now I'll leave you with this hot this this blind questions is what we love to do. If you couldn't be a doctor tomorrow, what would you do that still helps people? Because that's what you love to do, right? You love to heal, help people. Sure. So, what would you be doing? What would I be doing if I couldn't be a doctor? H I think it would be cheating to say if I could be a counselor because that's almost um I mean, not really. Not really. I guess it's kind of a little different there. um you know I I would try to figure out a way to use my skills like maybe um you know in a way that's more behind the scenes like can I work um you know in some place where you know you're developing uh you know programs and policies that uh you know uh are in the same space helping out uh you know how to run a program um you know uh so not as active um or uh uh you know or or maybe uh I I think stories you know we started out talking about story I think stories help people maybe I'd go to that and explore that you know that was where I started like you know when I was growing up was thinking about being a writer right so maybe uh maybe I'll start writing and uh figure out you know how to do some writing that may be you know helpful to people Dr. Raymond we're going to leave it on that I'm an accountability I'd love to be an accountability partner you said written a book you still have time you're still young so at some point Dr. Raymond, I'm looking for this book. I'm just saying, okay, you got time. You got a little bit of AI and you have this passion of creativeness. So, I I can imagine there's so much that you can talk about. But Dr. Raymond, thank you so much for your time. Truly an honor to just have this time here with you to learn more about your organization, more about yourself and the leader that is um a part of this organization. You mentioned huge organization with so many great leaders and you're just a part of it. So, thank you so much guys. If you guys are still watching, make sure you do like, subscribe, and comment. We'll catch you on the next one. I'm Frra. This is Dr. Raven, thanks.

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