From Mediation to Advocacy: Katie Welsh on Why Neutrality Isn't Always the Answer

[Music] Welcome back to an episode here on the Heart and Hustle Podcast with our next guest, Miss Katie. How you doing today? Good, good. How are you, Katie? Can't complain. It's almost Thanksgiving. For those that are watching, happy holidays, happy Thanksgiving, or happy Christmas, whenever this may be actually posting, but super excited to be sitting across the virtual table from you to really get to talk about some things people don't talk about. But first, let's talk about the organization. What organization do you represent? What's your title with this organization? Yeah, I work for the Women's Center for Advancement. I've worked here for about nine and a half years. Currently, I serve as the vice president of programs, which just means that I support all the folks who provide direct service to our clients and make sure that they get what they need to progress from whatever brings them to us, that crisis, all the way to self-sufficiency. Um, by training, I'm an attorney. Um, so it's it's been an interesting journey to get here to where where I'm at today, but I'm sure we'll get into that. No. Yeah, let's get it. How did we get into the space? I always love when people get make those those jumps, those leaps like that. How did you get from one, you know, sector to the next? Yeah, I honestly, and I don't know if this will surprise any of your listeners, but I I actually started as a mediator a very long time ago, just getting out of school. Um, and for those of you who don't know, mediation is uh when a third party helps two parties who are who have different ideas about a problem to kind of compromise, come to the middle, develop a plan. It's non-adversarial, so it's not like the court, but it's often court connected. So, interestingly, I worked with domestic violence victims when I was a mediator, but was just realizing that what I could provide them as a mediator was not what they needed. Um, I didn't feel neutral about anything that was happening in their life. So, it occurred to me um darn it, I think I have to go to law school to to help the folks that I'm trying to help um get the access to justice that they needed. So, that's what took me to law school and eventually law school led me here. I didn't know there was a job like this that existed out there, but it's a perfect alignment with everything that is important to me. um as somebody who likes to advocate for people who need access to justice pretty much you can only stay neutral for so long. I think that's one of the things that we talked about um until the issues really show up with a name and a story that you can't ignore and that's kind of possibly the other reasoning of wait I got to also get out of this space and really go to where it really matters. What made you go from the mediation um to law school and how did you purpose shift along the way? Uh how I got there was reluctantly. I I think I had been um encouraged by people who who loved me um who were close to me to to go to law school. But um I began working with a survivor as a mediator who didn't have money for an attorney. Her abuser kept violating the protection order while I was mediating her case. Um, I couldn't tell her, um, you don't need to agree to anything that that goes on here. You know, he's he's not doing things that are in the best interest of the children, but you can't say that as a mediator because you have to be neutral. So, that is that is really what I was hearing. Um, and I it was important to me to be part of that conversation with her. Um, I wanted to be somebody who if you can't afford a traditional attorney, I want to I want to be that person to help her navigate the court systems and figure out something that kept her and her child safe. Um, so what I want to go kind of back so this mediator, right, it's a person in the room. So even though you knew one side was right and the other was completely wrong, you still had to play in the middle, right? Uh and and I can imagine there was times that you walked away just kind of hurt that I wanted to do more and I couldn't and that really kind of fueled where you are today. Is that correct? Yeah, I would say that's accurate. Um, ultimately mom was not safe and by extension her child wasn't safe. And so I'm not saying it's not right for a a father to be in a child's life, but in that particular situation when she was so unsafe and all I could do to was to connect her to somebody who could help her. Yeah. It just felt a little hollow. So, it occurred to me then I've got to try this law school thing, but as long as I can do it the way that it makes sense for me and and the kinds of work that I want to do. Do you feel there's still law students out there that feel stuck chasing a career that doesn't really fit them? Gosh, I think there has to be. Um, I think or at least my experience of law school is that it really points you towards litigation, working for a firm, maybe doing contracts, kind of that traditional thing that we all think of when we think of attorneys. Um, so for me it was about finding a law school that u would allow me to like build a path, you know, to figure out what it means to serve the kinds of folks that I was mediating cases for who couldn't afford a traditional attorney. Um, who was maybe knew a little bit of social work. Um, that was really what I wanted, but nobody was talking about it. So, I'm assuming there are law students out there who are having the same experience and trust and believe jobs like mine exist. I'm not a unicorn. I'm not special. But it does take persistence and it takes kind of knowing what's important on the inside and how do I fit it with what's on the outside? That alignment that I keep talking about. When you find this dream job, was it like where has it been all along or man, this is what I've been working for? What was the real feeling when you get this? Yeah, I was definitely I mean I think initially walking through the doors I was excited but gosh after my first week I was not sure that I was going to make it a year. Um really it's it's it's hard. It's scary. Um you have a lot of responsibility. Um you hear a the worst of human behavior. Um, but I I mean I knew the whole time this is what I'm meant to do, which sounds cheesy, but I I felt it like I believe in this. I want to do this. I have to do this. I have to figure out how to make this work cuz other people do it. I can't, you know, it can't just be me who struggles. So, there is a way through. Um, so no, it was not like, oh my gosh, this is great. It was I freaked out of my mind. I can imagine. And you're in you're in an organization where most people don't even know what you guys do until someone in their family, someone they loves really need you guys. Can you kind of talk about what you guys do at the WCA? Yeah. So, our mission is to assist anyone experiencing domestic violence, sexual assault, human trafficking, and stalking to achieve safety and then lead a self-determined life. So um we work with people who have been victimized by the worst kinds of abuse. Um they come to us in crisis having experienced trauma. So that's the first part of our mission. And then the what takes us through to the second part is advocacy, case management, um legal services, peer support groups to hopefully eventually help this person take a journey through to to a life that is independent of abuse to where they feel like they don't have to go suffer um just to have a family, have money, have a roof over their head. That's essentially what we do. As we go here into holidays, you're in a very place where you have to stay grounded in the work that you do. Like how when it could be em emotionally just draining? How do you continue to kind of fill your cup per se to keep doing this over and over every single day with the love and the passion that you have? Yeah. And I I get asked that question all the time. I think self-care to be quippy. It's a it's a journey. Um it really required something different of me when I was just starting out than it does today. Um I think one thing that fills my cup is working with clients and seeing the progress step by step that they make toward a life that makes sense for them, that's safe for them. Um, I think the other thing that fills my cup is working next to the individuals that I do who are also passionate about doing this work, who can see the same terrible behavior that I see and just um take these huge steps, big efforts um to help somebody else out. But besides that, um I try to stay active. I meet with a therapist regularly to kind of process the tough emotions. Um but it it is it does just change kind of my my physical needs, my emotional mental needs change. Um so you always have to kind of be self assessing um am I am I okay? Because eventually your body will tell you you are not fine. You know it catches up. Hey, real quick. Have you enjoyed the podcast? We first want to say thank you and we also just want to give you a little insight of what we're up to at Francis. Some don't even realize that we're working with organizations to help them use AI to create that real human communication experiences where that's actually supporting your your families, those patients or the entire community. We're actually creating tech that connects. Check it out. Francis.ai. Okay. Okay. I I was going to ask cuz you said something from what it looked like when you first started to now. Like what is that one thing that you weren't doing then that you're doing now? Is I know you mentioned a couple of them. Is there one that you picked up over the years? Um, I think when I first started, I thought that if I was um nervous about a case or if I was um scared, you know, essentially by um an abuser's behavior that I just had to kind of swallow it and accept it um and and move forward and be strong for the client. But I think um acknowledging those feelings um addressing them head on um I working at a trauma-informed organization that is just part of what we do all the time. So predictability, transparency, and choice have to be part of everything that you do. I don't think I knew it or if somebody told me I wasn't listening, you know, when I first started. But I think that's what I needed when I started. And so now that I'm in the shoes of somebody who can support somebody doing this work, that's what I want to offer to them. Okay. All right. No, I I was asking because I know there's usually that thing like me, I love to plant like that's my thing that just allows me to kind of escape from the world or wrestling other things that allow me to kind of escape from reality in a sense of bringing me peace. But it's just cool to know that you find thing, you know, you find that peace in other things, whatever that may look like for you. You mentioned um a therapy, like, you know, some people are afraid of that. It's cool that you're in that space um as well because it shows that at any level it's okay to look into therapy. So many people just kind of struggle because of what it looked like for us, um you know, growing up, something that you didn't really talk about at home. So, what does it look like for those that are going through some of these things and going through some of these struggles but feel like therapy or feel like reaching out um is something they don't do? Um I'm not I'm not an expert on um why people don't do it. I I think for me um I didn't grow up um in kind of an emotional family where we had the language to express feelings. Um hard work is really important, achieving is really important or at least that's what I felt. So, um I think going to therapy for me is just about learning um how to put words to things that are difficult. Um how to process it, not internalize it. Um and then just how to talk to other people who may need that support. Um, I'm not a therapist, but I use kind of the the tricks or the tools that I that I gain from therapy to to navigate um to support other people who might need it. Um, so that's the value for me. It's also confidential. Um, I I hate burdening I I feel like I'm burdening family and friends to share some of the things that that I think or that I see. Um, and a therapist um is not burdened. That's what they're there for and they're not going to tell anybody. Um, so I think that practical stuff is useful to remember, too, if you're considering it. When you go back to just kind of high school going into college days, did you ever imagine that you'll be in this space as as a leader? I mean, I know usually we leave and we have these dreams of doctors and basketball players, whatever these things. What was your vision leaving high school? Oh gosh. Um, I definitely thought I was going to be in healthcare. Um, because that's what I saw all around me. All of my family has science brains and they work in healthcare. So, I think as um I definitely subscribe to the oldest child thing. And so I thought family business, I'll I'll be in healthcare too. Uh I'm not a science person. That is not my deal. Um, I love reading, writing, and it turns out arguing. That's not all there is to the law, but it's certainly having strong opinions is certainly part of it. But Ephine, had you met me in high school, you would not think I was the same person. I was a lot more reserved um than than I get to be as a as an attorney. So when I put my attorney hat down at home, I am silent. Um, you know what's funny is that I think through the conversation, I can tell you're this very like calm, mellow, probably like you mentioned, kite person, but you you could tell there's just a passion for it. When someone loves something, it doesn't matter. They, you know, just go into it. It's like uh back to wrestling like these people that you see on TV play these characters that are very, you know, over the edge and maybe sometimes flamboyant. That's not who they are, right? It's just you have to turn it on because that's just the character they play. And I say that you're playing a character role, but sometimes you still do have to turn it on. Like myself, I do this for a living. Talk all day and probably similar to you talk all day, but then when you do get home, it's like completely shut down. And when I tell people, yeah, I'm a quiet person. And I was like, "Yeah, okay." But it is true. Sometimes you just do not want to do it anymore cuz you have to turn it on. We have to turn on the energy. We have to make sure that we show up sometimes. Even when we're not completely full, we're still showing up. Like people don't think about those. It's draining. It definitely is draining. Yeah. They don't. And I I think all of these parts of me always existed in me, you know? I And same for you. Like I think this part of me that can talk in a courtroom, can argue with opposing counsel or a judge. Um, and then the part of me that can go home and just chill and watch basketball and play with my dogs all exist in one person. These parts serve me in different parts of my life, but they're all me. Um, and I think that's something that I probably didn't know as a young person either, is I can be complex. There's room for all of it. Um, What kind of dog? You mentioned you mentioned you have a dog. What kind of dog? Oh, I have two dogs. What kind? Um, I have a German Shepherd mix, Alice. And then I have um a Bernie's mountain dog, Grace, who's like 95 pounds, but she thinks she's tiny left dog. She's very timid. I love them both. That's all big dogs. I feel like all little dogs think they're big dogs, and all big dogs just assume that they're little dogs. Um, my neighbor has two huge German shepherds. And I remember the first time I'm walking up to his neighborhood, you know, to his yard and they just come running to me. These big dogs just barking, but they're the most kindest dogs. Like they that's just them, you know. Um, but people will be afraid of some German shepherds. I want to kind of go back to your family. They're they're in the healthc care space. So, what were they thinking when you start taking this route in life? Um, you know, I might have to ask them this over the holidays. Um cuz I'm sure that was exactly the question is what is she thinking? Um I had nobody in my family who is an attorney. So there was really no example for me. Um I think everybody kind of has an idea of what an attorney is. So I don't think they were like nervous, but I think exactly how I was going to live out being an attorney. they probably had an idea of me being in a more traditional setting than I ended up being in. So, I think when I started working at the WCA, it was like, what is an attorney going to do? Um, is my daughter going to be safe? Um, yeah, I I I think about safe. I do got a question. You you sit here, you sit in in these middle of I guess arguments, fights at times, right? Are you ever scared knowing that one, you're helping people, but that person on the other side may not, and I'm pretty sure in courtrooms, may not look kind, may not look happy. Is there How are you feeling on the inside when you're walking away? Yeah. So, um, some emotions maybe. Yeah, there's definitely big emotions. Um, there's a lot of that nervous energy, but that keeps you sharp. Um, I think what I confronted like the first couple years was like I would hear all the experiences that my client would have with their abuser and then I would walk into court and some abusers I mean they come in different flavors but some abusers can turn on that charm when they need to. So, kind of reconciling the scary stories that I had heard with who I was seeing in court. Uh, definitely keeps you on your toes. Um, some abusers were just the same as described. Um, I've had chairs thrown at me in court. I've been called names in court in front of judges. Um, I've been followed back to the office. Um, so that is scary. I think domestic violence abusers are scarier than traffickers. Um they have called our work. They make threats. Um we we often have the police here just to to help us be safe. So, um, but that's why, you know, your routine self-care practices are so important because you really do it's it's vital in order to keep doing this work to to decompress, to process what has happened um throughout the week. I mean, kudos to you. What does justice actually look like for survivors that are navigating our broken systems? Yeah. Um I and I think I think you ask an important question because the work of an attorney here isn't always about individual cases. It's about systems work. Um it's about making the system, the legal system in our case um accessible to the people who can't navigate it for one reason or another. Um, so like if you were to go out and hire an attorney, uh, it'd probably cost you $2,500 for a retainer maybe, um, just to kind of talk, share the facts, get the case started. Um, that is not achievable. If you're a survivor, you have just left a dangerous situation. You might not have a lot a lot of money saved up. The money that you do have is probably devoted to housing, paying utilities, getting groceries. So, it's just not practical to think of hiring attorney for for some of our clients. So, um that's where we come in. Um and then trying to create safety within parenting plans, decrees for divorce, just really keeping their experience as a survivor of trauma kind of central to the court process. um it's not always built into the process, you know. I mean, judges are not going to ask or assume like, have you been through trauma that I need to be aware of? Um is there is there anything that I could do to protect you? Some some judges will. Um but they see so many cases. It's that's my job as an advocate to make sure that that stuff is included. Um, but it's it's just like I said, not always baked into the process for our clients and they don't know how to always ask or say the right words to get what you mentioned about um being advocate like can you share a moment I know you kind of shared a couple of them but if you could share another one that made you realize how critical legal advocacy actually is? Oh, there's so many and they're all humbling. Um I think so one example more recent that I can think of um financial abuse is part of like 99% of domestic violence relationships. Um there's always some level of um a survivor like not having access to money or maybe their credit being ruined by an abuser. Um so we and and I I can't share all the details for confidentiality but um we had a client who um had a car with their spouse. Um spouse calls the after they separate spouse calls the vehicle in stolen. Um, our client was trying to flee in the car to a different state and once the vehicle was called in stolen, police come get the vehicle which leaves our client stranded in another state where they don't know anybody. So, client makes it back to this state but needs to participate in the divorce process which had already started unbeknownst to the client. Yeah. um the abuser had started it on purpose knowing the survivor wasn't here. And so it was our job to help that client get ready for trial very quickly to talk about the financial issues, one of which was possession of the car, um which was in that client's name. The client was making payments on the loan. Um and the client did all of this self-represented. We weren't we didn't have an attorney available to go with them on the day of trial, but we were able to make all the preparations with that client and they successfully got the car back, got an award of the proceeds of the marital home and some other things. Um, so that's that's the kind of thing that I'm talking about that you don't always think of if you don't know the dynamics of domestic violence and how it impacts survivors. I can imagine that before you started all this success looked very different. What does success look like for look like now and what has changed? Um are we talking about success for a survivor or I would say for you what does success look like for you as you're helping these survivors? So, number one, um, success is if a client feels heard and believed by me. Um, I think that's the number one thing we get calls here often about. I'm already represented by an attorney, but I don't think they get what I'm saying. I don't think they believe me because they've been dismissive. So, number one, um, there are so many attorneys where I live. Um, anybody can get anybody divorced, but not everybody can have the experience of being believed as a survivor. So, I think that's number one. I think number two is breaking down the process of going to court for divorce, custody, protection order into simple terms that can be understood. Uh, court forms are not easily understood. um the court doesn't try to be to to try to put what they need you to do in plain language. There's a lot of Latin terms and legal ease. And so I think second for me is plain language. And then third is just helping somebody um establish what their goals are and then get to them um and and feel good about it. As we start to wrap this up, I believe every piece of the journey, even the hard stuff, really becomes part of the testimony. Um, and I think you mentioned that as well. And for myself, I mean, there's so many experiences of what people are dealing with at life. And mine was a sexual abuse for so many years, the adoption, the, you know, the things that I had to trauma, right, that we just talked about. Um, and I I believe that it was part of the journey. I believe it is the testimony allows me to do what I do even today and be advocate for those who have kind of went through those same paths or are going through those same paths. Um do you feel that this journey has only strengthened you to continue to do this for another 10 20 years or like where do you think you're at now? I think there's so many more years ahead of you and I I just don't know. Are you in this role much longer? Do you see another role that you've really had an eye on? What does that look like for you? Um, you know, I'm doing a lot of that reflection right now, um, because I have been at the WCA for just about 10 years, um, in a lot of different roles. And I do think, um, I enjoy I would So, 10 years ago, me would never believe that I would say this, but I do enjoy being an attorney, and I do think I'm good at it, and I want to do more of it. I don't get to do as much of it in a in my role as vice president. You know, I I I do some of it, but I also have to do personnel stuff. Yeah. Um facility stuff. Um so I I do I'm doing some reflecting about what it would mean to get back to that. And I think that's just a good example of me and what I've probably been doing all along. Um, my path has never been linear, but it's always been about alignment. And when the path is aligned, it never really feels like an accident that I'm here. So, as I kind of examine my values, um, as long as I can stay connected to those, um, I will be doing what I'm supposed to be doing. And I I believe that wholeheartedly. It's not an accident. You mentioned 10 years ago. We're going to go back to your first day actually of uh this your blind question as we really close this up with this last question. If you can go back to your first year of law school and whisper that one sentence to yourself, what would that sentence actually sound like? Um, all I needed for somebody to say to me was that it was okay that um that I wasn't taking the same path that everybody else was, that the work that mattered to me wasn't that. Um, I I have a lot of classmates who are incredibly talented and that did make sense, but it didn't for me. And I just felt like uh because it didn't make sense for me, I shouldn't be there. Um, it it felt like everyone else was doing it. Um, and and why couldn't I figure out how to make it make sense for me? But, um, if somebody had told me like, "No, you you know what is important to you. keep keep with that. Um, that would have saved me a lot of heartache probably. Yeah. No, there's a lot of young people that are afraid to follow this career that doesn't fit the mold for all the reasons that you've kind of mentioned. So, good that you actually kind of left off with that. There's a lot of people in this space, I can imagine, want to do it, but they just like, wait a minute, mom may think I'm crazy, you know, my family or whatever that may look like, but it's that purpose. is that passion that you've chased your whole life that allowed you to be here um and explore where you're at today. What can people find more from the organization? They want to know some more um just resources and they feel like maybe this hits home. Yeah. So, we definitely have a website wca omaha.org. Um we're on socials, but I would just say if you are an advocate at heart, there are organizations like us everywhere um in the United States. So, I think what's most important is if you care about survivors and you want to prevent domestic violence, find one in your area. Uh, learn from them. Figure out how you can get involved um and volunteer with them because advocacy doesn't have to just be about direct service. Um, you can support survivors in so many ways um without getting a job there. Katie, well, I appreciate you. My name's Ephra and this has been Katie. Another great conversation, guys. Make sure you guys do like, subscribe. Make sure you guys go also check out the website. Check out Katie. Katie, are you on LinkedIn? I am. Yep, I'm there. Katy's on LinkedIn. So, fight on LinkedIn. Make sure you guys connect. We'll catch you guys on the next episode. Lers. Vice. [Music] Welcome back to an episode here on the Heart and Hustle Podcast with our next guest, Miss Katie. How you doing today? Good, good. How are you, Katie? Can't complain. It's almost Thanksgiving. For those that are watching, happy holidays, happy Thanksgiving, or happy Christmas, whenever this may be actually posting, but super excited to be sitting across the virtual table from you to really get to talk about some things people don't talk about. But first, let's talk about the organization. What organization do you represent? What's your title with this organization? Yeah, I work for the Women's Center for Advancement. I've worked here for about nine and a half years. Currently, I serve as the vice president of programs, which just means that I support all the folks who provide direct service to our clients and make sure that they get what they need to progress from whatever brings them to us, that crisis, all the way to self-sufficiency. Um, by training, I'm an attorney. Um, so it's it's been an interesting journey to get here to where where I'm at today, but I'm sure we'll get into that. No. Yeah, let's get it. How did we get into the space? I always love when people get make those those jumps, those leaps like that. How did you get from one, you know, sector to the next? Yeah, I honestly, and I don't know if this will surprise any of your listeners, but I I actually started as a mediator a very long time ago, just getting out of school. Um, and for those of you who don't know, mediation is uh when a third party helps two parties who are who have different ideas about a problem to kind of compromise, come to the middle, develop a plan. It's non-adversarial, so it's not like the court, but it's often court connected. So, interestingly, I worked with domestic violence victims when I was a mediator, but was just realizing that what I could provide them as a mediator was not what they needed. Um, I didn't feel neutral about anything that was happening in their life. So, it occurred to me um darn it, I think I have to go to law school to to help the folks that I'm trying to help um get the access to justice that they needed. So, that's what took me to law school and eventually law school led me here. I didn't know there was a job like this that existed out there, but it's a perfect alignment with everything that is important to me. um as somebody who likes to advocate for people who need access to justice pretty much you can only stay neutral for so long. I think that's one of the things that we talked about um until the issues really show up with a name and a story that you can't ignore and that's kind of possibly the other reasoning of wait I got to also get out of this space and really go to where it really matters. What made you go from the mediation um to law school and how did you purpose shift along the way? Uh how I got there was reluctantly. I I think I had been um encouraged by people who who loved me um who were close to me to to go to law school. But um I began working with a survivor as a mediator who didn't have money for an attorney. Her abuser kept violating the protection order while I was mediating her case. Um, I couldn't tell her, um, you don't need to agree to anything that that goes on here. You know, he's he's not doing things that are in the best interest of the children, but you can't say that as a mediator because you have to be neutral. So, that is that is really what I was hearing. Um, and I it was important to me to be part of that conversation with her. Um, I wanted to be somebody who if you can't afford a traditional attorney, I want to I want to be that person to help her navigate the court systems and figure out something that kept her and her child safe. Um, so what I want to go kind of back so this mediator, right, it's a person in the room. So even though you knew one side was right and the other was completely wrong, you still had to play in the middle, right? Uh and and I can imagine there was times that you walked away just kind of hurt that I wanted to do more and I couldn't and that really kind of fueled where you are today. Is that correct? Yeah, I would say that's accurate. Um, ultimately mom was not safe and by extension her child wasn't safe. And so I'm not saying it's not right for a a father to be in a child's life, but in that particular situation when she was so unsafe and all I could do to was to connect her to somebody who could help her. Yeah. It just felt a little hollow. So, it occurred to me then I've got to try this law school thing, but as long as I can do it the way that it makes sense for me and and the kinds of work that I want to do. Do you feel there's still law students out there that feel stuck chasing a career that doesn't really fit them? Gosh, I think there has to be. Um, I think or at least my experience of law school is that it really points you towards litigation, working for a firm, maybe doing contracts, kind of that traditional thing that we all think of when we think of attorneys. Um, so for me it was about finding a law school that u would allow me to like build a path, you know, to figure out what it means to serve the kinds of folks that I was mediating cases for who couldn't afford a traditional attorney. Um, who was maybe knew a little bit of social work. Um, that was really what I wanted, but nobody was talking about it. So, I'm assuming there are law students out there who are having the same experience and trust and believe jobs like mine exist. I'm not a unicorn. I'm not special. But it does take persistence and it takes kind of knowing what's important on the inside and how do I fit it with what's on the outside? That alignment that I keep talking about. When you find this dream job, was it like where has it been all along or man, this is what I've been working for? What was the real feeling when you get this? Yeah, I was definitely I mean I think initially walking through the doors I was excited but gosh after my first week I was not sure that I was going to make it a year. Um really it's it's it's hard. It's scary. Um you have a lot of responsibility. Um you hear a the worst of human behavior. Um, but I I mean I knew the whole time this is what I'm meant to do, which sounds cheesy, but I I felt it like I believe in this. I want to do this. I have to do this. I have to figure out how to make this work cuz other people do it. I can't, you know, it can't just be me who struggles. So, there is a way through. Um, so no, it was not like, oh my gosh, this is great. It was I freaked out of my mind. I can imagine. And you're in you're in an organization where most people don't even know what you guys do until someone in their family, someone they loves really need you guys. Can you kind of talk about what you guys do at the WCA? Yeah. So, our mission is to assist anyone experiencing domestic violence, sexual assault, human trafficking, and stalking to achieve safety and then lead a self-determined life. So um we work with people who have been victimized by the worst kinds of abuse. Um they come to us in crisis having experienced trauma. So that's the first part of our mission. And then the what takes us through to the second part is advocacy, case management, um legal services, peer support groups to hopefully eventually help this person take a journey through to to a life that is independent of abuse to where they feel like they don't have to go suffer um just to have a family, have money, have a roof over their head. That's essentially what we do. As we go here into holidays, you're in a very place where you have to stay grounded in the work that you do. Like how when it could be em emotionally just draining? How do you continue to kind of fill your cup per se to keep doing this over and over every single day with the love and the passion that you have? Yeah. And I I get asked that question all the time. I think self-care to be quippy. It's a it's a journey. Um it really required something different of me when I was just starting out than it does today. Um I think one thing that fills my cup is working with clients and seeing the progress step by step that they make toward a life that makes sense for them, that's safe for them. Um, I think the other thing that fills my cup is working next to the individuals that I do who are also passionate about doing this work, who can see the same terrible behavior that I see and just um take these huge steps, big efforts um to help somebody else out. But besides that, um I try to stay active. I meet with a therapist regularly to kind of process the tough emotions. Um but it it is it does just change kind of my my physical needs, my emotional mental needs change. Um so you always have to kind of be self assessing um am I am I okay? Because eventually your body will tell you you are not fine. You know it catches up. Hey, real quick. Have you enjoyed the podcast? We first want to say thank you and we also just want to give you a little insight of what we're up to at Francis. Some don't even realize that we're working with organizations to help them use AI to create that real human communication experiences where that's actually supporting your your families, those patients or the entire community. We're actually creating tech that connects. Check it out. Francis.ai. Okay. Okay. I I was going to ask cuz you said something from what it looked like when you first started to now. Like what is that one thing that you weren't doing then that you're doing now? Is I know you mentioned a couple of them. Is there one that you picked up over the years? Um, I think when I first started, I thought that if I was um nervous about a case or if I was um scared, you know, essentially by um an abuser's behavior that I just had to kind of swallow it and accept it um and and move forward and be strong for the client. But I think um acknowledging those feelings um addressing them head on um I working at a trauma-informed organization that is just part of what we do all the time. So predictability, transparency, and choice have to be part of everything that you do. I don't think I knew it or if somebody told me I wasn't listening, you know, when I first started. But I think that's what I needed when I started. And so now that I'm in the shoes of somebody who can support somebody doing this work, that's what I want to offer to them. Okay. All right. No, I I was asking because I know there's usually that thing like me, I love to plant like that's my thing that just allows me to kind of escape from the world or wrestling other things that allow me to kind of escape from reality in a sense of bringing me peace. But it's just cool to know that you find thing, you know, you find that peace in other things, whatever that may look like for you. You mentioned um a therapy, like, you know, some people are afraid of that. It's cool that you're in that space um as well because it shows that at any level it's okay to look into therapy. So many people just kind of struggle because of what it looked like for us, um you know, growing up, something that you didn't really talk about at home. So, what does it look like for those that are going through some of these things and going through some of these struggles but feel like therapy or feel like reaching out um is something they don't do? Um I'm not I'm not an expert on um why people don't do it. I I think for me um I didn't grow up um in kind of an emotional family where we had the language to express feelings. Um hard work is really important, achieving is really important or at least that's what I felt. So, um I think going to therapy for me is just about learning um how to put words to things that are difficult. Um how to process it, not internalize it. Um and then just how to talk to other people who may need that support. Um, I'm not a therapist, but I use kind of the the tricks or the tools that I that I gain from therapy to to navigate um to support other people who might need it. Um, so that's the value for me. It's also confidential. Um, I I hate burdening I I feel like I'm burdening family and friends to share some of the things that that I think or that I see. Um, and a therapist um is not burdened. That's what they're there for and they're not going to tell anybody. Um, so I think that practical stuff is useful to remember, too, if you're considering it. When you go back to just kind of high school going into college days, did you ever imagine that you'll be in this space as as a leader? I mean, I know usually we leave and we have these dreams of doctors and basketball players, whatever these things. What was your vision leaving high school? Oh gosh. Um, I definitely thought I was going to be in healthcare. Um, because that's what I saw all around me. All of my family has science brains and they work in healthcare. So, I think as um I definitely subscribe to the oldest child thing. And so I thought family business, I'll I'll be in healthcare too. Uh I'm not a science person. That is not my deal. Um, I love reading, writing, and it turns out arguing. That's not all there is to the law, but it's certainly having strong opinions is certainly part of it. But Ephine, had you met me in high school, you would not think I was the same person. I was a lot more reserved um than than I get to be as a as an attorney. So when I put my attorney hat down at home, I am silent. Um, you know what's funny is that I think through the conversation, I can tell you're this very like calm, mellow, probably like you mentioned, kite person, but you you could tell there's just a passion for it. When someone loves something, it doesn't matter. They, you know, just go into it. It's like uh back to wrestling like these people that you see on TV play these characters that are very, you know, over the edge and maybe sometimes flamboyant. That's not who they are, right? It's just you have to turn it on because that's just the character they play. And I say that you're playing a character role, but sometimes you still do have to turn it on. Like myself, I do this for a living. Talk all day and probably similar to you talk all day, but then when you do get home, it's like completely shut down. And when I tell people, yeah, I'm a quiet person. And I was like, "Yeah, okay." But it is true. Sometimes you just do not want to do it anymore cuz you have to turn it on. We have to turn on the energy. We have to make sure that we show up sometimes. Even when we're not completely full, we're still showing up. Like people don't think about those. It's draining. It definitely is draining. Yeah. They don't. And I I think all of these parts of me always existed in me, you know? I And same for you. Like I think this part of me that can talk in a courtroom, can argue with opposing counsel or a judge. Um, and then the part of me that can go home and just chill and watch basketball and play with my dogs all exist in one person. These parts serve me in different parts of my life, but they're all me. Um, and I think that's something that I probably didn't know as a young person either, is I can be complex. There's room for all of it. Um, What kind of dog? You mentioned you mentioned you have a dog. What kind of dog? Oh, I have two dogs. What kind? Um, I have a German Shepherd mix, Alice. And then I have um a Bernie's mountain dog, Grace, who's like 95 pounds, but she thinks she's tiny left dog. She's very timid. I love them both. That's all big dogs. I feel like all little dogs think they're big dogs, and all big dogs just assume that they're little dogs. Um, my neighbor has two huge German shepherds. And I remember the first time I'm walking up to his neighborhood, you know, to his yard and they just come running to me. These big dogs just barking, but they're the most kindest dogs. Like they that's just them, you know. Um, but people will be afraid of some German shepherds. I want to kind of go back to your family. They're they're in the healthc care space. So, what were they thinking when you start taking this route in life? Um, you know, I might have to ask them this over the holidays. Um cuz I'm sure that was exactly the question is what is she thinking? Um I had nobody in my family who is an attorney. So there was really no example for me. Um I think everybody kind of has an idea of what an attorney is. So I don't think they were like nervous, but I think exactly how I was going to live out being an attorney. they probably had an idea of me being in a more traditional setting than I ended up being in. So, I think when I started working at the WCA, it was like, what is an attorney going to do? Um, is my daughter going to be safe? Um, yeah, I I I think about safe. I do got a question. You you sit here, you sit in in these middle of I guess arguments, fights at times, right? Are you ever scared knowing that one, you're helping people, but that person on the other side may not, and I'm pretty sure in courtrooms, may not look kind, may not look happy. Is there How are you feeling on the inside when you're walking away? Yeah. So, um, some emotions maybe. Yeah, there's definitely big emotions. Um, there's a lot of that nervous energy, but that keeps you sharp. Um, I think what I confronted like the first couple years was like I would hear all the experiences that my client would have with their abuser and then I would walk into court and some abusers I mean they come in different flavors but some abusers can turn on that charm when they need to. So, kind of reconciling the scary stories that I had heard with who I was seeing in court. Uh, definitely keeps you on your toes. Um, some abusers were just the same as described. Um, I've had chairs thrown at me in court. I've been called names in court in front of judges. Um, I've been followed back to the office. Um, so that is scary. I think domestic violence abusers are scarier than traffickers. Um they have called our work. They make threats. Um we we often have the police here just to to help us be safe. So, um, but that's why, you know, your routine self-care practices are so important because you really do it's it's vital in order to keep doing this work to to decompress, to process what has happened um throughout the week. I mean, kudos to you. What does justice actually look like for survivors that are navigating our broken systems? Yeah. Um I and I think I think you ask an important question because the work of an attorney here isn't always about individual cases. It's about systems work. Um it's about making the system, the legal system in our case um accessible to the people who can't navigate it for one reason or another. Um, so like if you were to go out and hire an attorney, uh, it'd probably cost you $2,500 for a retainer maybe, um, just to kind of talk, share the facts, get the case started. Um, that is not achievable. If you're a survivor, you have just left a dangerous situation. You might not have a lot a lot of money saved up. The money that you do have is probably devoted to housing, paying utilities, getting groceries. So, it's just not practical to think of hiring attorney for for some of our clients. So, um that's where we come in. Um and then trying to create safety within parenting plans, decrees for divorce, just really keeping their experience as a survivor of trauma kind of central to the court process. um it's not always built into the process, you know. I mean, judges are not going to ask or assume like, have you been through trauma that I need to be aware of? Um is there is there anything that I could do to protect you? Some some judges will. Um but they see so many cases. It's that's my job as an advocate to make sure that that stuff is included. Um, but it's it's just like I said, not always baked into the process for our clients and they don't know how to always ask or say the right words to get what you mentioned about um being advocate like can you share a moment I know you kind of shared a couple of them but if you could share another one that made you realize how critical legal advocacy actually is? Oh, there's so many and they're all humbling. Um I think so one example more recent that I can think of um financial abuse is part of like 99% of domestic violence relationships. Um there's always some level of um a survivor like not having access to money or maybe their credit being ruined by an abuser. Um so we and and I I can't share all the details for confidentiality but um we had a client who um had a car with their spouse. Um spouse calls the after they separate spouse calls the vehicle in stolen. Um, our client was trying to flee in the car to a different state and once the vehicle was called in stolen, police come get the vehicle which leaves our client stranded in another state where they don't know anybody. So, client makes it back to this state but needs to participate in the divorce process which had already started unbeknownst to the client. Yeah. um the abuser had started it on purpose knowing the survivor wasn't here. And so it was our job to help that client get ready for trial very quickly to talk about the financial issues, one of which was possession of the car, um which was in that client's name. The client was making payments on the loan. Um and the client did all of this self-represented. We weren't we didn't have an attorney available to go with them on the day of trial, but we were able to make all the preparations with that client and they successfully got the car back, got an award of the proceeds of the marital home and some other things. Um, so that's that's the kind of thing that I'm talking about that you don't always think of if you don't know the dynamics of domestic violence and how it impacts survivors. I can imagine that before you started all this success looked very different. What does success look like for look like now and what has changed? Um are we talking about success for a survivor or I would say for you what does success look like for you as you're helping these survivors? So, number one, um, success is if a client feels heard and believed by me. Um, I think that's the number one thing we get calls here often about. I'm already represented by an attorney, but I don't think they get what I'm saying. I don't think they believe me because they've been dismissive. So, number one, um, there are so many attorneys where I live. Um, anybody can get anybody divorced, but not everybody can have the experience of being believed as a survivor. So, I think that's number one. I think number two is breaking down the process of going to court for divorce, custody, protection order into simple terms that can be understood. Uh, court forms are not easily understood. um the court doesn't try to be to to try to put what they need you to do in plain language. There's a lot of Latin terms and legal ease. And so I think second for me is plain language. And then third is just helping somebody um establish what their goals are and then get to them um and and feel good about it. As we start to wrap this up, I believe every piece of the journey, even the hard stuff, really becomes part of the testimony. Um, and I think you mentioned that as well. And for myself, I mean, there's so many experiences of what people are dealing with at life. And mine was a sexual abuse for so many years, the adoption, the, you know, the things that I had to trauma, right, that we just talked about. Um, and I I believe that it was part of the journey. I believe it is the testimony allows me to do what I do even today and be advocate for those who have kind of went through those same paths or are going through those same paths. Um do you feel that this journey has only strengthened you to continue to do this for another 10 20 years or like where do you think you're at now? I think there's so many more years ahead of you and I I just don't know. Are you in this role much longer? Do you see another role that you've really had an eye on? What does that look like for you? Um, you know, I'm doing a lot of that reflection right now, um, because I have been at the WCA for just about 10 years, um, in a lot of different roles. And I do think, um, I enjoy I would So, 10 years ago, me would never believe that I would say this, but I do enjoy being an attorney, and I do think I'm good at it, and I want to do more of it. I don't get to do as much of it in a in my role as vice president. You know, I I I do some of it, but I also have to do personnel stuff. Yeah. Um facility stuff. Um so I I do I'm doing some reflecting about what it would mean to get back to that. And I think that's just a good example of me and what I've probably been doing all along. Um, my path has never been linear, but it's always been about alignment. And when the path is aligned, it never really feels like an accident that I'm here. So, as I kind of examine my values, um, as long as I can stay connected to those, um, I will be doing what I'm supposed to be doing. And I I believe that wholeheartedly. It's not an accident. You mentioned 10 years ago. We're going to go back to your first day actually of uh this your blind question as we really close this up with this last question. If you can go back to your first year of law school and whisper that one sentence to yourself, what would that sentence actually sound like? Um, all I needed for somebody to say to me was that it was okay that um that I wasn't taking the same path that everybody else was, that the work that mattered to me wasn't that. Um, I I have a lot of classmates who are incredibly talented and that did make sense, but it didn't for me. And I just felt like uh because it didn't make sense for me, I shouldn't be there. Um, it it felt like everyone else was doing it. Um, and and why couldn't I figure out how to make it make sense for me? But, um, if somebody had told me like, "No, you you know what is important to you. keep keep with that. Um, that would have saved me a lot of heartache probably. Yeah. No, there's a lot of young people that are afraid to follow this career that doesn't fit the mold for all the reasons that you've kind of mentioned. So, good that you actually kind of left off with that. There's a lot of people in this space, I can imagine, want to do it, but they just like, wait a minute, mom may think I'm crazy, you know, my family or whatever that may look like, but it's that purpose. is that passion that you've chased your whole life that allowed you to be here um and explore where you're at today. What can people find more from the organization? They want to know some more um just resources and they feel like maybe this hits home. Yeah. So, we definitely have a website wca omaha.org. Um we're on socials, but I would just say if you are an advocate at heart, there are organizations like us everywhere um in the United States. So, I think what's most important is if you care about survivors and you want to prevent domestic violence, find one in your area. Uh, learn from them. Figure out how you can get involved um and volunteer with them because advocacy doesn't have to just be about direct service. Um, you can support survivors in so many ways um without getting a job there. Katie, well, I appreciate you. My name's Ephra and this has been Katie. Another great conversation, guys. Make sure you guys do like, subscribe. Make sure you guys go also check out the website. Check out Katie. Katie, are you on LinkedIn? I am. Yep, I'm there. Katy's on LinkedIn. So, fight on LinkedIn. Make sure you guys connect. We'll catch you guys on the next episode. Lers. Vice.

‍