Michael Gershenzon shares how Stella Mental Health treats 10,000 patients monthly

0:01 [Music]
0:16 Welcome back to another episode here on the Heart and Hustle Podcast with our guest, Mr. Michael in the house. What's up, Michael?
0:21 What's going on, Efron? What's up, man? Uh, let's let's start off who you are, man. What is your role?
0:27 What is your organization? What do you what do you guys do? It's a deep question. Uh so I am the
0:33 co-founder and CEO of Stella Mental Health. Um and we help people I guess
0:39 suffering from depression, anxiety, PTSD find relief from their worst symptoms.
0:45 That's kind of the core the core and uh core of our mission.
0:50 And uh we got to get down to the why, man. I believe you can't you didn't get just wake up one day and say this is what I want to do. Normally I think when
0:57 someone gets into a space like this, life experiences um maybe whether it's young, older, family, friend, how did it
1:06 all come about, man? How do you get into this space? Absolutely. Well, I'll start with I have no business being in this space, but uh
1:13 you you artfully said it. Sometimes uh life life has different uh uh different
1:20 twists and turns that are unexpected. So, I guess kind of I'm a career finance
1:26 guy, uh, investment banking out of college and private equity here in Chicago, uh, for, I don't know, the
1:34 better part of a decade. Um, and then the day after Thanksgiving in in 2019,
1:40 someone I had gotten to know, uh, died by suicide. And it was kind of my first personal
1:46 I guess runin or or uh yeah, I guess experience with with
1:53 mental health and and I'd say the shock and the confusion um surrounding it.
2:00 Frankly, again, like I said, knew nothing about healthcare generally, knew nothing about behavioral health. Um but
2:07 that person kind of started um
2:12 started carrying the torch of uh that I'm going to tell you a bit about
2:18 introduced me to to Dr. Whip off here who's our uh chief medical officer and co-founder who is doing just pretty
2:25 incredible uh pioneering work in in PTSD and
2:30 frankly helping to kind of alleviate the the suicide problem in this nation. Um
2:36 and after he kind of put us in touch and and um and unfortunately he's no longer
2:44 with us, Dr. Whip off and I uh kind of bonded over that experience and and I'd
2:49 say decided to uh to try to make our own tiny little impact on the world. So that
2:54 was I'd say the founding story. This friend that you speak of, was it in Chicago that happened or was this person
3:00 somewhere else? Chicago. True. Oh no, man. I only ask because I can't remember the year, but I think it
3:07 was was around that time that it happened the same thing after Thanksgiving um where I had a friend and I only reason I say Chicago is because I
3:12 remember he was from Chicago. So I'm like maybe he wasn't in Chicago but yeah this gentleman same thing after
3:19 Thanksgiving committed suicide um I think wrote and also drove his car into the water after shootings up or
3:25 something along those lines. It was pretty kind of crazy to even think of um cuz I was actually um expecting him that
3:32 you know we invited him over in Thanksgiving understanding his situation XYZ. Anyway, um it is it is very
3:40 crazy how life works, man. You know, in ways like that and and then just to kind of see that there was people that loved
3:46 him, right, enough to even create now this business and really to just kind of and legacy of him. And I think about just
3:54 the mindset, how you mentioned the mindset, right, and people committing suicide. I've actually even heard another crazier story, well, not
4:00 crazier, but crazy story as well of a gentleman 41 years old that committed suicide. um left his family behind, left
4:07 a note that says I couldn't I couldn't come to terms with my demons or something like that along but it's the
4:12 mindset right man and and what have you said you don't belong here but you're in it I can imagine because you're in it
4:19 you've learned so much as well from what what did you learn when it comes to mental when it comes to the mind the
4:25 PTSD and the way that we operate as humans you know as we're sharing those uh
4:31 tragic stories what what immediately comes to mind is or But what I've learned um is to shift that word commit,
4:41 commit suicide to die by suicide. Um and I'll share why.
4:48 Committing has a u voluntary feeling to it like like you're making a choice. Um
4:56 and I think what I've learned um and by no means am I a clinician, am I an
5:02 expert? Um but these circumstances people find themselves in are often
5:10 imposed upon them involuntarily. Trauma, life experiences, childhood
5:17 events, war. I I'll stop I'll stop the list. um as
5:23 you can appreciate and um people feel hopeless and trapped
5:31 and it is not necessarily a seemingly voluntary act. Um
5:39 it's just the only way to stop the pain. Um, so it's been this
5:45 weird I don't know why I'm fixated on this specifically, but it's been this weird thing. I've had to train myself to
5:51 not say committed suicide, but die by suicide. And our chief psychology officer has kind of helped ingrain that
5:58 vernacular, but I I know it's one word, but I think it's an important mindset shift that um
6:08 often times we don't have control of Yeah. our circumstances and uh you got
6:15 to do what you got to do to to make yourself feel right. I can respect that too. I mean you just
6:21 changing that one word because it definitely does make a difference on the commitment versus the dying by
6:26 understanding as you mentioned these are things people have been dealing with for a very long time sometimes goes un uh
6:33 unseen or someone doesn't bring it up they just for whatever reason that may look like and and myself right I think I
6:39 told you this I was pretty um open when I talked about the sexual abuse that I've encountered for years in my life um
6:46 and really the feeling alone in my wife and all these things that I brought into
6:51 my relationship when I first started with my now wife. And
6:57 thank God for her, you know what I mean? Thank God for a strong woman. And I would never forget what she said to me,
7:02 Michael. And she said, you know, even through even if we don't work out, I just want to help you heal. I just want
7:08 to help you overcome. And like what strong words. And I don't even know what that meant at that level yet. I'm still
7:13 early 20s. But as I go through this relationship, also realizing some of the anger issues. I mean, punching holes in
7:19 walls. I mean, just like in her face at times, understanding that's not who I
7:24 was, right? We kind of go back to just the mind, the experiences that we've encountered. And I would never forget
7:30 when she says, "I just get so scared when you get that mad." And I'm like,
7:35 "What do you mean?" And she's like, "I just don't know if you're going to, you know, obviously strike me or something." I'm like, "I would never." And she's
7:41 like, "I can't tell because when you get mad, you you you just you become this different person." And knowing that,
7:47 Michael, I'm like, that's not who I am. That's not who I wanted to be. And realizing that I was just sweeping all
7:53 this pain, all this all these things that were happening to me that I just I was like whatever about it, I was
7:58 sweeping them under the rug and and you know, when when moments came up or when she would ask questions and and at this
8:04 point, I haven't even talked about sexual abuse yet. And I think the more that I started really to talk about it and really I think I mentioned to you at
8:10 30 years old even seek therapy on some other levels of for some other things of just life realizing that it was the mind
8:16 and I'm so I I'm so fascinated when someone says the mind because I think that we don't give enough attention to
8:22 that. The same way that we want our our bodies to look amazing and we want to be in the best shape of our lives. I think being in the best shape of your life is
8:28 you really working on the mental health of things. you know, yeah, going to the gym could help with that, but I think
8:34 there's there's also digging deep into it. You being in this space, man, do are are you now more of an advoc like I
8:40 guess before this, were you advocate of the therapy, of the mental health?
8:46 Yes or no? Great question, by the way. Thank you for for sharing that. And um we we'll
8:51 circle back to that, but the the massive irony is absolutely not. I I
8:58 am an immigrant from Moscow, Russia. I think maybe culturally it's always rub some dirt on it. You don't show
9:04 weakness. You don't whatever psychological things. I'll never understand how culture ingrains
9:09 itself. Um, no. I did not think about if I'm honest
9:16 with myself. I was probably one of the people that didn't truly believe like what do you mean just suck
9:23 it up or or change how your attitude or change your perspective? Um, and looking
9:29 back on that, that's almost embarrassing to say. Um, but maybe that's kind of the
9:34 that's it goes back to though, Michael. We don't know what we don't know, right? We were oblivious to it. We were naive.
9:40 Whatever the word you want to say to it, we got something happened in your life. You got to get more educated on it.
9:46 Where's your stance now? uh well training 10,000 people a month
9:53 at this point I think it goes without saying that that was a very naive and uh
9:59 almost idiotic view I I held but um but I to your point and I I haven't even
10:05 thanked you for having me on but sharing sharing these conversations I
10:12 think helps educate one more person one more person one more person such that me
10:17 six years ago could have been educated instead of needing some sort of event to
10:25 force me into the education. Um, and I think it it starts it starts with
10:31 us kind of having the the conversations and and also
10:37 I'll keep caveing I am not a clinician. I don't have a crystal ball. I only know what I know over the last five years.
10:43 that our kind of understanding and brand positioning and our clinical team uh I
10:51 think fundamentally believes that we don't really understand the brain. The brain is an organ to to a certain extent
11:00 and it can be treated with physiological
11:07 or biological methods. And the same way if you break your arm, you can take an X-ray and you know where it's broken,
11:12 you know what to do about it. Maybe we're just not far enough along or uh to
11:17 to understand the brain that way. But I I think it's your question around what have I learned and and um
11:26 and how how is my perspective evolved. It's gone from
11:32 mental health isn't a thing. It's something you can control, figure it out to the brain is no different than a bone.
11:39 You break your bone, you're not going to walk on a broken leg. You got to heal it. very very similar kind of
11:45 let's say biological and underpinning to to the way we we treat people. Now
11:51 that's not to say that everything needs a pill or an injection or this or that.
11:56 Uh therapy is an intervention. Um and anyway, I'm kind of rambling and and
12:04 I don't want No, no, it's it's good. I'm here also just thinking about this uh you know these these different stories um when
12:10 people do not seek that help. I've actually experienced it in my own household with my mother-in-law. I've
12:16 never had an issue with my mother-in-law. And she probably hates that I'm gonna say this, but hey, she
12:22 forgive me. But, uh, no, man. I I She had her own experiences as, you know, as
12:28 as a woman and and in her own life. And um I guess that also
12:34 where she didn't get it fixed or didn't seek that help and now she's seeing her grandchild and the relationship that may
12:40 have and and may probably thought that I was um probably going to do something uh
12:47 inappropriate to my daughter, right? And it bothered me more than anything, Michael, because when I tell you that
12:53 I've worked on myself and who I am, I'm not here to repeat cycles. I'm here to break cycles. And I think she she knows
12:58 that, right? and and has for the last so many years of my life. But whatever because of one of her traumas, it
13:04 allowed her to react in a different way and I wasn't having it to be quite frank
13:09 because understanding where I was at as a person and and she apologized and told me about, you know, some of the issues
13:14 that she was encountering and and why. But it it just goes to prove that people
13:22 think that they can just sweep it under the rug and they can't, right? It comes back to you at some point. And we talked
13:28 about a little earlier or I mentioned it. It could be a smell that brings you back to that moment of hurt of being
13:35 broken. And it's so when we talk about a therapist, we it's not that just uh one
13:41 and done. Sometimes is having when you go through those moments, it is seeking that help, you know, and and one of the
13:47 coolest things that we talked about um and I think we both agree on that yeah, there is the medication part to it, but
13:52 it doesn't always have to take that. And I think that's where you guys kind of play the special part as well, Michael. Um, if we can kind of talk about that, I
13:58 think you guys in a space that yeah, you respect that there's medication there, but not everyone has to go through that and it's not for everybody. That's not
14:05 the the go-to the model that you guys are kind of um going up against. Yeah. No, absolutely. Um, let me put a
14:11 pin in that in that in that last conversation and then and then we'll talk about maybe treatments. So, the other thing
14:18 I think I learned and it's hard to ingest and maybe I still don't quite
14:24 believe it in my bones, but um is that everyone's experience is unique to them and what is a massive trauma to one
14:33 person. You don't trauma compare. You don't you don't symptom compare. Uh you just be
14:40 supportive. So um obviously you shared your experience as
14:45 a child that is an acute event uh multiple events. Uh obviously veterans
14:53 experience things in active military. Those things are undoubtedly
15:01 more severe than someone suffering just generalized anxiety for no specific
15:07 event driven reason. But we don't need to compare one to the
15:13 other. Everyone's experience and feelings are are valid and and um and
15:19 that's been a frankly I say hard to
15:24 hard to ingest, but how like how do you compare the person that was a war fighter and experienced what
15:31 they experienced to again someone that can't even necessarily name some event
15:36 that changed their life? The answer is don't compare them. Uh so I think that's the other kind of
15:42 learning here. Um your mother-in-law had her experiences, I've had my experiences, you've had your
15:48 experiences, and we don't need to uh when you know, we don't need to um to invalidate how
15:57 we're feeling because someone else in our perception may have had it worse. Um, so maybe that's that that's the only
16:04 other thing I'd say are kind of like foundational learning over the last five years is that biological underpinnings
16:10 and everyone's experiences their own and they're 100% valid. So uh now to answer
16:17 your question maybe the the good news is there is a lot of innovation happening
16:22 in the space. Um so let me let me ramble a little bit about what we do and and
16:28 frankly what just the industry is uh kind of experiencing. So um as we've
16:37 maybe better understood still don't fully understand the mind but better understood the mind there are
16:42 interventions and there's kind of a segment of psychiatry being called interventional psychiatry
16:49 which can lead to breakthrough
16:54 kind of events in someone's processing ability of what they're feeling and and just general symptom
17:01 relief that doesn't require hours and hours and hours and hours of
17:06 therapy or perpetual kind of medication. Um,
17:12 far be it from me to understand how those things work. Uh, but there are a lot of uh innovations frankly not done
17:20 by us. Our job is to distribute and and deliver those treatments to patients. But there's a lot of innovation in in
17:26 kind of the market um that is bringing things to people that otherwise maybe
17:33 they would never find relief. Um so to your question uh what do we offer? So at
17:39 Stella we offer general psychiatry so therapy and medication management which
17:45 by the way absolutely have a critical role both as frontline treatments as
17:51 maintenance treatments as everything in between. Um
17:58 and also it's well known and studied that twothirds of people are treatment
18:04 resistant kind of uh let's say insurance company nomenclature where they um they
18:12 don't respond to those treatments. um
18:18 that's when we will offer also interventional psychiatry which are incl
18:23 clinic kind of treatments such as uh transcranial magnetic stimulation so TMS
18:31 FDA approved insurance reimburse spado which is a kind of nasal ketamine
18:36 derivative FDA approved insurance reimbured both indicated for um
18:42 depression anxiety OCD in some cases Um, and also things like IV or IM ketamine
18:49 infusions. Um, as well as the stellic ganglane block for PTSD, which is kind of a lesserk known procedure. But point
18:55 being, there are these incl clinic modalities that can help, maybe wrong
19:01 word, modulate the brain, whatever happens in the body
19:06 happens. And it allows people a breakthrough a feeling window. Uh, I
19:12 shouldn't mention it's they're right around 70 to 80% effective. So, not everyone responds, but the great
19:19 majority and and certainly more than just therapy or just meds um
19:25 get this window to as we get hundreds and hundreds of these kind of anecdotes,
19:31 notes, uh, reviews, feel normal again. And that opens up time to work on
19:39 therapy, to to work on your relationship with your significant other, to work on
19:46 being with your kids, to get physically fit, whatever it is that um
19:51 that the brain or the mood may be prohibiting you from doing. Um, again, those those kind of interventions can
19:57 help speed up that process and and and do it in a way that um doesn't always or
20:05 even most of the time require reliving the experience. Um,
20:10 so they're just let's call them almost biological uh ways to
20:19 feel better. Um, so if the Heart and Hustle podcast has ever sparked any idea or made you think
20:25 differently, do us a favor. Make sure to guys share this, post it on LinkedIn, or even text that nonprofit friend that you
20:33 just have. Whatever works. This is what keeps the conversation going and allows us to just grow this community together.
20:40 Seriously, we appreciate you. I love how you I love how you said that. uh you know you started this not even so
20:47 long ago but you have so much you're you you're informative on the space right actually I always joke with people like
20:53 when people say you probably would say you're not an expert in your case you probably say I'm not an expert but for someone that doesn't know the space you
20:59 seem like an expert to me right like that's just what it looks like so it's like but you do have a lot of information because you're living it
21:04 again the experts are are the clinicians but I I know and um and
21:11 the the ability to I think what I am good at is is looking
21:17 at data and numbers and being unbiased in in ingesting and understanding
21:24 objective facts. We collect outcomes. So patient reported outcomes there are
21:30 clinical scales. PHQ9 for depression, GAD for anxiety, PCL for for PTSD and
21:37 and others. We collect those before, during, and after treatment for thousands and thousands of patients. I
21:43 just look at the numbers. Uh, and you can create care paths
21:50 that are just meaningfully more effective in helping people get relief
21:55 than the traditional ones. Um, and also it pisses me off that it's not
22:01 100%. Because I think once we once you understand the root cause of of the
22:08 symptoms, which is frankly all we're patching up in a lot of ways. Yeah. I think that's when
22:14 you can get to 100%. Is are 99% of broken arms healed? I don't know, but I
22:21 would guess maybe even more than that. So uh again as as a field it's gone from
22:28 maybe sub half the people getting to remission or way less than that to now
22:34 edging above half and and heading towards uh in in the right direction. Um
22:41 and is that global or is that just within the your organization? Um I would no global to a certain extent
22:48 there's nothing special about us. I think we got going early. So, we've got maybe more clinics and more ability to
22:54 impact more people than than most practices, but
23:00 we've got got amazing clinicians, but I'm sure there are psychiatrists here in Chicago that are doing equally great
23:07 equally great work. So, and I and I view that in in a very positive way. There will be maybe in
23:14 30 years we can all worry about competition and fighting over patients. Right now it's it's very collaborative
23:19 because I think as as a field as a practice like clinicians
23:25 are ones who do good that's they get into medicine to help people and I and
23:31 sitting across the table from someone I would never know and not and hitting a
23:36 ceiling and not being able to help them and seeing them again in the next therapy session and then again and then again
23:43 and by the 40th one just as a human you're like what what can I like this is
23:50 so anyway point being and I'm not answering question but I think um we've gotten a lot of amazing community
23:57 clinicians other practices have a lot of amazing clinicians and I think the
24:02 default position is everyone wants to do good to now to your point around
24:07 um is it a global thing the
24:12 uh the only thing that's stopping me from saying Yes to that is awareness and and
24:19 you said it exactly right to you I sound like an expert. I'm an idiot. I don't know anything. I'm just I'm just sharing
24:26 information collected uh collected over some experiences. So if you go out and
24:32 walk around Orlando and you ask 100 people, have you ever heard about therapy?
24:37 99.5 of them would say yes. Have you heard about medications,
24:42 anti-depressants, SSRIs? 99 would say yes. Have you heard about Spravado? Have
24:48 you heard about TMS? One in a 100red would probably say yes. So I think right now it's a an education challenge or or
24:56 opportunity where these interventions become
25:02 not only known but almost like frontline. Right now, we're kind of,
25:07 let's say, forced to to take people through
25:13 frontline treatments, therapy, and and SSRIs that can take a lot of time before
25:18 we prescribe them the thing that oftentimes we know is going to work best, which is a second line treatment. And I'm sure there's really good
25:24 responsible kind of innovation behind that. But I I can't wait for the day. Hopefully it's tomorrow, but it'll
25:31 probably be a decade where you walk around Orlando, you ask them about these treatments, and 99% of them will will at
25:38 least have heard of these things. And that's that's when I'll answer yes to your question around is it?
25:44 No, that makes sense. I I would say earlier you said if one person learns something that we're we're
25:49 in a good place. So I want to let you know that when you start naming all these acronyms that I'm learning today, you know that there's even these
25:55 acronyms that exist in this world today. So see somebody's learning if it's me or somebody watching. Okay. I just want you
26:00 to know Michael, someone's learning. Um when you mentioned the clinics, how many clinics do you guys have right now?
26:06 Uh so we have 12 clinics and about 100 or so practitioners.
26:12 Wow. All in the Chicago area. Is this uh uh Southern California, Salt Lake City, Chicago, and Boston?
26:20 Wow. You would ever thought this was going to happen, man, when you decided to get into this space that you guys are now touching different uh places?
26:28 So many twists and turns. I I have no business being here. Like I I'll
26:34 like I started this. I every day I'm like, what am I doing? And and also I
26:41 would say despite it often being challenging, you're an entrepreneur yourself. Um, when you really sit back
26:48 and frankly have conversations like this, you can you can ingest what uh what
26:57 we've done and and and frankly um
27:03 where Yeah, I think sometimes when you're in it as well, you can't really see it at
27:09 sometimes. um but from somebody from the outside and know how you know how long it's been and you already expanded and
27:15 scaled the way but I think also very strategic you guys are not just scaling for the sake of scaling either is that correct?
27:21 Yeah. No, I think again this is uh these are all learnings in the moment but scaling for the sake of scaling is is a
27:29 is a fast way I would say to uh to not be around for a long time. Um, y
27:35 so I I think or we try to we try to think through through the business through the patient lens. If we're
27:42 providing good outcomes to people, that person is going to tell someone and
27:48 that person may come see us when and if they need our our support. So to your
27:55 point, uh scaling is is uh important, but frankly, you could do a lot of good
28:02 in the in the massive markets and cities that we're in. And um scaling can often
28:08 have tension with quality. Uh so especially in in healthcare, there's
28:16 you can't you can't cut corners. Uh these are people's lives. So um especially in the healthcare business,
28:23 es especially in the healthare business, you know, today I was talking to a friend and we were talking about entrepreneurship and just how it's fun.
28:28 It is fun. It's challenging, you know, easy to say fun when you're having a good time, things are going good.
28:34 However, it can be challenging, a little stressful. We talked about anxiety, all that happens when we're kind of in that
28:40 roller coaster. It's a roller coaster, as I like to say. Entrepreneurship, life is a roller coaster. There's ups and downs. Um and when you're down, you
28:46 really got to stand strong. But it seems as I spoke to to one of your colleagues earlier that the culture that you guys
28:52 have within the the you know organization is like either with us against us right and not so much against
28:59 us but you for us or not for us you have to have a certain mentality. You have to bring a certain energy. I love when I
29:06 spoke to to her you could just tell how highly she spoke of you because of the culture that you guys are being able to
29:11 build. How important is culture um while scaling? Yeah, such a great question. Um,
29:19 again, five years ago, I having never had an entrepreneurial experience, I I
29:25 wouldn't even know how to answer your question. I don't know what culture means. And sitting here today, it it
29:31 really is everything. And if you don't take care well first of ourselves
29:39 then of our employees the people receiving services are going to feel
29:44 that and and everything kind of ripples from the the people delivering the care
29:51 especially in a serviceoriented business and I I can't speak to product oriented businesses I know people order stuff on
29:56 on Amazon that's what they care about but when our clinicians are seeing
30:02 patients all day, every day, creating care plans.
30:07 Um, if they're not feeling right, if the support staff, which is as critical as
30:14 the clinicians, aren't feeling right, um, that absolutely is going to it's
30:20 going to impede the service we deliver and by proxy kind of not help one person
30:26 find find relief. So it's a longwinded way and again I kind of shared I'm I'm
30:32 financeoriented. I'm I'm objective oriented. I'm analytical. So this like fluffy stuff is is uncomfortable to me.
30:40 Uh but with every day I better understand it that um like vibes are
30:46 important and I don't know how to quantify that. I don't I don't even know how to measure that. I don't know how to deliver that other than just kind of be
30:53 genuine. um hire people for missionoriented reasons.
30:58 Remember, especially in our business, this is less a business and more again a mission. This is a vehicle to
31:05 deliver healing. And if we don't believe that and then it all kind of like
31:11 crumbles, I'd say. And frankly, there is like it's a hard industry. It's behavioral health. We're fighting
31:18 stigmas. we're finding payers not paying and insurance reimbursement and
31:23 everything being new. So, it's there's easier ways to let's say make a
31:29 paycheck. So, people, our employees, our team vote with
31:34 uh with their employment status with us and um if we don't have the people, we
31:40 literally have nothing. So, too many words to say culture is is everything. and uh and I don't know how to quantify
31:47 it which makes me uncomfortable but I guess I just got to live with that. I I love this. I love to talk entrepreneurship. So I'm going to give
31:53 you another entrepreneurship question. I know you said five years ago you got kind of started to really kind of get
31:58 into the space more. What are three things you think you've learned being an entrepreneur
32:05 that you didn't know about entrepreneurship? That is a deep one. Um,
32:11 I'll kind of piggy back off of what I just said that it's in some ways the work is the easy part. It's like keeping
32:18 your sanity. Uh, because it is hard like creating something out of nothing. I
32:24 have found it incredibly challenging and challenging in not so
32:29 far as again the actual work. It's it's
32:35 it's mo moderating my own uh and kind of
32:40 our team's ability to to pursue the mission. So there's been a lot of unintended or
32:47 unexpected internal work. Um to your point, I I kind of got into
32:53 entrepreneurship with no experience and it and it feeling like this romantic thought that uh being
33:02 an entrepreneur like you fight the good fight. Yeah. It's hard as hell and uh
33:08 many many days you want to quit. So to uh too many words to answer your your good
33:14 question. What have I learned? Like it's just about doing one more day. Like that is that is it.
33:21 I love how you say this, right? And and for some they think but wait you have you have the clinicians you have the you
33:28 know the the clinics like but seeing it from a different perspective realizing
33:33 like that's a lot of lives. You got to also like those are lives in your hands ideally right? If anything happens at
33:39 that level, everybody else starts to feel that at down beneath, you know, if you have to close clinics, that hurts
33:46 families. If you have to let go clinicians, that hurts families. So, all that pressure, I can imagine also is a
33:52 lot. And as an entrepreneur, there's so many also hats that we have to wear at times. And of course, we start to build
33:58 the team to allow us to um I guess innovate and and grow from where we're at. And I actually even ask you, man,
34:05 we're in a space right now. I think you're you're pretty you're pretty with the times man. AI are you are you
34:11 utilizing AI in this in this space. I know some people uh which is respect that AI will never replace the human
34:18 body and we're not saying in that sense we're saying in the in the backends and automating and doing repetitive tasks.
34:24 Are you guys um utilizing that kind of technology? Yeah, that is a tremendous question. Um
34:31 so to your point around building the team luckily we have a CTO otherwise we'd be doing everything um with paper
34:37 and pencil. Um but uh let me try to coherently answer your
34:42 question. So let's say there's both external AI use cases
34:51 and internal if or at least that's the way that that my brain breaks it breaks it up.
34:56 So we provide a health care service. I think we have a responsibility
35:02 to innovate but innovate responsibly. Um, correct. So to one place we are not currently
35:09 using AI is here's a chatbot that'll get to know you
35:15 and that'll be your therapist. By the way, in five years, could that very well be
35:22 the daily life? Sure. But it's not our place to innovate in in a patient's care
35:28 without evidence-based um I'd say research that our clinical
35:35 team buys into. So longwinded way of saying we are not actively using AI to
35:41 treat patients but internally uh of course we're we're adopting as
35:48 quickly as we can. So in healthcare and tell me when when these examples are or
35:54 this is no longer interesting to you but uh billing and and and collections
36:00 is a massive thing I underestimated as really the engine of the business meaning
36:07 dealing with the insurance company like previous to this like you go get your physical or whatever you take your
36:12 kids to the doctor you don't know what happens you flash your blue cross card and you don't worry about it behind the
36:18 scenes there are intricate processes by which a practice I'd say often fights
36:23 with insurance to get paid and that can be hypermanual, hyper expensive and a
36:29 leaky bucket of money you deserve that you never get because you don't have the
36:34 processes to to collect it. So too many words to say we are heavily investing in that in that function to
36:43 I'd say break the linearity of hire a person every time you want to
36:49 open another clinic and you might wake up with 500 people in a billing team
36:54 which is which is difficult to manage where technology can make at least that
37:00 process a lot more streamlined which by the way on the other side is the payer the insurance company, they've adopted
37:07 this a long time ago. So when we're submitting claims, they're bouncing back
37:12 because AI agents are finding some clerical error and making it difficult on us. So in short,
37:19 it's almost like bringing I won't even say a knife to a a gunfight. Like we we need to we need to arm ourselves with
37:26 the ability to get paid fairly what what we deserve. So billing and is a huge
37:32 one. Uh that that is I've never been in the healthcare industry at all, but because I got friends that are in the healthcare, one
37:39 thing that I always hear is building and coding and and and if you don't have someone as good at it, right? Like I
37:45 I've had a friend go in there and she says, "Man, I made this company so much money all because I got on the phone and
37:51 asked for the money, right? I had to it was it was like pulling teeth ideally, but we had to go get it." So to to what
37:57 you're saying, if you can automate that, man, or systemize that, however that may look like, so it becomes a little easier. You got more now you got people
38:03 that are more excited to do the things that they love. Um, which is cool. And that's what I think about AI. I don't think about a replacement, but allowing
38:09 people to really do more of the things that they actually love. Um, and and kind of automate the things that we
38:15 don't love, are repetitives that drop. To your point, I um, and I'm not a technologist by any means. I don't think
38:20 AI is replacing people, certainly not in our business. It's making them massively more efficient. So such that last year
38:28 we had three clinics, today we have 12. Uh next year we'll have 30. We don't
38:34 need to hire again linearly in order to support that growth. The team we have
38:40 today can just get three, five, 10 times more efficient and
38:46 eliminate the uh the hyper manual tasks. It's like the equivalent of sending an
38:53 email instead of writing a letter. Like I don't know that put a lot of people out of a job. No, it just like made us all faster at communicating and uh and
39:00 it kind of just elevates all of our standards such that our focus is not
39:05 how can we better fight with the insurance company to get paid. Like that's the critical back office. Like our focus
39:11 should be 99%. How do we get more people better? That's that should be the
39:18 conversation. not we have a liquidity issue because Blue Cross isn't paying us because our
39:24 claims are going in wrong and and that prohibits the ability to open up
39:31 the next and the 10th next clinic. Um yeah, so you kind of need to build that
39:38 I hear you man. I definitely you know people get into the business to help and heal and then when you got them doing other things it becomes like what is my
39:44 why and then you start to sit here like am I really doing what I love? But it all happens that I'm happy that you guys
39:50 are in the space of how do we fix this so we can do more of helping people open up more clinics to continue to help
39:56 people. Um, I love it, man. This has been a really good conversation, Michael. I love that. And for those that don't know, Mike mentioned he was even a
40:02 little under the weather. I couldn't tell, man, cuz we're 40 minutes in having a hell of a conversation about just mental health, business leaders.
40:08 And I love that life happens for reasons and that you got into this space and that you've been able to spend some time
40:14 with me from a person that's not uh as you mentioned the expert that I get to
40:19 see a different set of eyes and how you come at it from that perspective, right? Because it's easy to someone that's been
40:24 kind of doing this and this is their kind of bread and butter. But you've the last 5 years invested yourself into this, invested into just learning more
40:30 about it um and helping people that you can really now speak to it. As much as you'd say that you're not an expert,
40:35 man, you're 5 years in, man. Yeah, I'm pretty sure you spend the 10,000 hour. Is that what they say? You got to spend 10,000 hours or something like that,
40:41 man. You probably did that the first year, man, trying to just build this uh business that you had. I think that guy just made that number
40:47 of Gladwell to sell more sell more books. But uh but yeah, something like that. No, and listen, vice versa, I'd
40:53 say um without people like you a sharing your story and b having a platform that
41:01 other people can learn from, um again, we we need each other. uh there every
41:07 everyone everyone plays a role all I'll or we'll do our best to kind of treat people but without without people
41:15 knowing that there are opportunities out there to feel better
41:20 um and right it's a it's a very domino effect type of type of system if you're
41:27 not feeling right your kids aren't feeling right and like I love what you said I'm not here uh uh to continue
41:33 cycles I'm here to break them like Yes, someone's got to break a cycle and that
41:38 takes education and you provide a platform for education. So, thank you. I appreciate it. Yeah, I appreciate you
41:45 taking that time. I think it it does. It's one if one person is how I look at it. If you can help one person, you left
41:51 the life, the world a better place than how you've, you know, entered. So, I try to help that one person. I understand
41:57 that through telling my story, I can help somebody as well. and through having others tell their stories or just
42:02 stories of others that we allow others to realize that they're not in this alone that we all have some sort of
42:10 baggage that we come with and that it's okay to ask for help that there's people willing at no judgment and I think for a
42:17 very long time especially growing up in you know the '9s for at least me I think you're in the kind of the same space
42:23 Michael um where we didn't have that conversation my household wasn't talking about mental health, you know what I
42:30 mean? It was, as you kind of said it earlier, just suck it up, you know, uh, keep it moving.
42:35 You know, you didn't talk about your personal stuff that was happening at home and things like that. And even sad
42:41 enough to to recently happened, my sister mentioned how my niece said she was
42:48 maybe having anxiety or something like that. And my sister response was, "What
42:54 are you even talking about? You don't even know what that is." Right? instead of really having that conversation, this
42:59 is a perfect time to educate. So I think sometimes even being very mindful of yes, just educate, ask the questions.
43:06 Don't let people feel bad about it. I was recently the same maybe that I mentioned to you. I remember when he
43:12 mentioned something along the of therapy, right? And I went home and I
43:17 was like, man, I don't want him to feel like I was just kind of not wanting to have the conversation around therapy because it's a it's a it's a
43:24 conversation that you kind of got to be a little bit bold to have at times, at least nowadays. And when he said it, I
43:30 had to go back to him and says, "Hey man, I just want to let you know that I did not miss the part about therapy and I'm an advocate for it and if you feel
43:37 like, you know, you got to go, then go for it." You know, that's how we kind of got into the conversation. So, there's people that are watching, if you guys
43:42 are watching right now, if you guys are asking yourselves, um, should I? Yeah, why not? It doesn't hurt. Also, I love
43:49 to add to it because I've seen multiple versions of it is that your first therapist is not your last either. To
43:55 me, it's like dating. You know, you got to find the one that works for you. Um, and it looks like what Michael, what you guys are doing is really getting that
44:01 right fit, getting people that work with XYZ's with these type of um, you know, backstories or traumas or you talked
44:08 about analytics numbers. can imagine that data also has to do with that. I won't get into I love numbers, but not
44:13 in the way that you love numbers. All right. You ask me a math question, I'm there. Other than that, don't don't ask me about data. Fair enough. No, Michael.
44:19 Just to underscore and uh and then I'll and then I'll shut up. Exactly what you just said is
44:27 more people than not are going through something. Not the like cliche you're not alone
44:33 thing, but like it's everywhere. uh
44:38 it's more common than not. So there's not weakness in talking to someone about
44:43 it. Be it therapy, be it whatever. I don't know. Start start by working
44:49 out. Start by doing yoga. Start what whatever h however someone needs to get on the on
44:57 ramp uh to being the opposite of me five years ago, which is not even believing
45:04 or thinking or knowing that this mental health was a thing. Like treat it the same way you would treat physical health. There are gyms everywhere. Think
45:10 of a therapist like a gym. Yep. I agree, man. Thank you so much for your time, Michael. I appreciate your
45:16 time. For if you guys want to know where you guys can find Michael and more about the organization, where can they find you? Michael
45:21 stellammentntal.com. Are you on LinkedIn if anybody wants to tap in? Absolutely.
45:27 All right. You guys can also check out Mr. Michael on LinkedIn. I'm Ephrain with the hard hustle podcast. We'll catch you guys in the next one. Latest.

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