The Hope Group CEO Ken Huey on Breaking Cycles: From Trauma Survivor to Healing Thousands

Welcome back to another episode here on the Heart and Hustle Podcast with a gentleman they like to say it's a brother from another mother, maybe another father. Who knows? We're both adopted and we're both in this seed. Kind of had to start it off, but I also had to show show you this real quick, man. cuz this this is how excited I was today, man. I had to pull this shirt out. This is a OD goodie. Look at this. Yeah, man. And right here on the end of it was actually when I I was doing clothing. brain. That breaks the body down so that physically I have issues later on. Those of us with an aces of four or more of the 10 have a 1,200% chance of getting an ST in our STD in our lives. We've got higher blood pressure, higher cholesterol, more heart disease, early death, and then all the social issues. We have more divorces, more imprisonment, imprisonment. We have, you know, just all kinds of issues, more mental health issues and all that. So all of a sudden I've got to have enough safe touch that I overrule and override this neural pairing of touch equals connection with somebody I can trust and I get enough neural pairings around that and it defeats now or can be stronger than the bad neural pairing. If I don't understand that, I'm not truly doing trauma work. Trauma work and just, you know, trying to be experiential. Cool. But you've you've got to have experts across your organization to really do deep good trauma work. And trauma has No, it is, man. I I'm excited. I'm excited to really learn more about uh not learn cuz I already kind of understand what's going on, but just to see the growth in the boys program. I think it's such there's just so much lack there. You know, even me being back in the old old high school, I really got into it mentoring because I didn't have that growing up, but I wish I did have that. I think it was so, you know, important that I did have that. So, I've now got into the space of doing what I wish I had when I was growing up, right, But it was this huge mansion that no one was getting and she she just looked at it. She said, "One day this is going to be it." The guy after being better shows up, does a walk. He says, "I love what you're doing. I can't give you all the money, but I'm going to give you a half a million dollars. I think she bought 12 acres of land." And now they're starting to really build for these young teens to give them a place. And kind of what we mentioned, whole time and and wound up being able to adopt her. And that's my little granddaughter, Liv. And oh my gosh, the idea that, you know, I can remember holding her. This will get emotional for me, but you know, here she is at, you know, 6 months and a year old and we know she's going to be adopted by at a year. And I'm holding her and I'm just saying, you know, you and me, girl, you know, you don't understand it yet, but I will talk to you about being adopted. You will not be alone in this this endeavor. It's pretty beautiful and uh they've done a tremendous job. She is just thriving and it's exciting for me to watch. Um, but I love it. Can Can we show your age? Can I show your age real quick, Ken? Yeah, sure. All right, Ken, you're almost 60, bro. You look good. Okay, I want to say Yeah, you look good. What keeps you fired up, man? On the court in your company, like, yeah, you still got this energy about you and and so much excitement when you talk about this. No, I appreciate that. Yeah, I'm 59 and I'm happy. Life is good. And I think that I've done things I' I've been lucky that's the case. My kids seem to believe that that is the case. And uh that sexual abuse does not rule me and I'm very pleased about that. Um celebrate 35 years of marriage this Wednesday. And uh wait a minute, Wednesday? Yeah. Don't get it wrong, Ken. You're on live now, Ken. You three more days. So Thursday, I guess. Anyway, uh you know that that's great. is so much work. It is so much work that there's times that I ask myself, why can't I just be normal, but what is normal? We all have a story, right? Why wh why why can't I just go and work this nine to five? Because God didn't see that in our future, right? like he's given us this this work ethic to continue even after you retired. Who are you kidding? You thought that was your plan to retire. God's plan was much bigger than that, you know. So, uh, man, It's actually my logo. When I had a cafe, I took that same logo. But adopted, man, I wear this so proudly, especially when I'm at the gym. And um people was like, "Man, I love that you just wear that so proudly." But I'm also proud because as we both know statistically, we shouldn't be here, Ken. But you're in an exciting seat. if you can talk about the role that you're in, man, and and and who you are. Yeah. So, I'm I'm the CEO of the Hope Group, which is a behavioral health care platform, which just means I'm in the health care space and have an overarching overseeing role for four different entities that provide mental health care and behavioral health care from teenagers all the way through adults. I love that. And what what got you into this space, man? Yeah. So, I've been in behavioral healthc care for my whole career. So, I finished a PhD at Purdue University in marriage and family therapy and I'm just looking for a job and I want to get back out west. I've been out in the Midwest for a long time. Want to go to Utah looking for a job and I find something in a residential treatment center as a direct care therapist. Okay. So, I apply and I get this and I'm at this really, you know, old school residential treatment center with some great training and, you know, various issues and stuff, too. But it was, you know, it was really, really good, powerful training. And what I what I loved was that here was an environment where you control all of the variables that support bad behavior. For instance, you know, if you're in residential, I can control the music you listen to. I can keep you away from really bad friends. I can keep you away from drugs and partying and being running away from school and and you take all that away and you can really get some movement with teenage girls is who I was working with. And so I just fell in love with that modality. And what landed me where I am here is that I'm adopted. I have a high ASUS score. You know, we can talk about that as we go along. And I was noticing that there were all these adopted kids in treatment. It was about 35% of them. With some quick research, I found out that 2% of the US populations adopted, but 35% in treatment locations, that just didn't make any sense. And that started me on a journey to understand what that was about. Ultimately, it's about trauma. Adoption is a trauma, but I think trauma generally. And that had me then creating the career path that built something for what I see as my people. So, there's the short version. We'll talk more about it as we go. I love that. I love that you took your your past trauma and what has happened in the past and realizing how do I make it better? Um I think we spoke about this when I first met you was it's not even about us anymore, right? Like we're both very successful in our own industries and it's how do we continue to make sure that others get to see the same success. Um, and it is really in the space that you're in, you know, and I don't know that I So, I actually asked a question yesterday to to two of my neighbors because it seems I went over, you know, Ken, and I'm Friday night or Saturday night. I had a a bottle of Jim Bean and I go over to my friend's house right across the street and I say, "Hey guys, you guys want to drink?" And my other neighbor, he always usually says no or sometimes yes. Once in the blue, the other one said no. And then he gets into the whole wine and spirits and kind of telling the backstory, but also mentioned that he stopped drinking 10 years ago. I said, "Oh, wow." So I asked the question, right? That's what I normally do. Yeah. What made you stop drinking? He says, "Every time I started drinking, it led to more problems. It led to um you know, the drug, you know, drug use now at this point. And um for 9 years, he's 35 years old. For nine years, this is something that he suffered with. And I had another question because I didn't have mom and dad, right? They had both mom and dad. What made you guys users? What made you guys go down this space? Was it cuz mom and dad just weren't there? Like what was that life look like? Cuz it's always to me intriguing when someone has mom and dad and and their life still kind of takes a a different toll in life, right? Someone like myself and maybe like you. I didn't have I just had mom, you know? I was adopted and it was just mom. Um, but I realized I didn't use drugs. Like it wasn't the space I was in. And when he asked me, I had to remember because my mom is still a drug addict because my mom is still homeless, my biological mom. And um I I just feel that God makes sure I never used that. You know, even though I had friends that were doing that, they knew that that's just words of my mindset. Um so I ask you when we talk about this space of of people go through trauma even with both parents there, right? We talk about adopes, but this is really this is huge. This is this is again bigger than us. What are you seeing at the young level when when people was talking about you know behavioral health like what are some of the things that uh get people to these spaces where now they need the assistance? Yeah. So you know what creates the the the issues for somebody. We now know thanks to ACEs, the adverse childhood experience study, that trauma is at the root of the majority, simple majority, not vast majority, but the majority of mental health, social health issues, and physical health issues. The short version is, and I'd encourage anybody listening, if you don't know about ACES, to go to aces2high.org, acce.org, org and you can find out more about this but basically there was a researcher became a couple of researchers trying to understand the antecedent to morbid obesity in women they kind of accidentally slipped in a question about sexual abuse and ultimately figured out that 64% of of women I believe that are morbidly obese have been sexually abused and and that just totally changed the study so with more research they were able to narrow it down to 10 different types of trauma that happens in early childhood years that creates a predisposition for a whole lot of issues. So, and this will make some sense. So if if from a young age, let's say, that I'm I'm sexually abused and it goes on for 3 or 4 years and you know, somebody just touches me and I start to know that that means I'm within 5 minutes of some unwanted sexual advance that flips on my fight orflight mechanism and I start having that on all the time because the the rapist isn't somebody in the shadows, it's somebody at the house usually and so my body is hyperaroused all all the time in not a good way. I'm scanning the environment. I'm worried. I have stress hormones and cortisol bathing my in the last 35 years, this study has gotten more and more traction and people are understanding, oh wow, this is about trauma changing the brain but making the brain, you know, breaking the brain down in some ways with these stress hormones and getting us to a place where we're always worried about problems and we can't then relax and be in relationship and be safe and have then a productive become it's just become a buzz word. We try and stay away from it generally because it it doesn't mean enough anymore. But that's basically at the heart of it is becoming experts in what created it and then specific interventions that fix it. So quickly that's experience. Experience creates the neuroparings that are not adaptive and new experience creates better neuropairings that are pro-social and to be there. So, I would show up and it was just a group of of young colored men, you know, that didn't have that father figure at home or just didn't have that middle figure in their lives. And just to show up every single Tuesday with them in bow ties cuz they were supposed to show up in both ties. So, I show up with them and the opportunities on how that really changes somebody. I'm a big believer that it just takes one person to really change, you know, she said a lot of these young teens The reason they're successful now is because they got into this homeless shelter and they had male figures that were willing to also pour back into them. So huge, man, what we're talking about. It's it goes with so many different organizations doing it. And we can highlight this at the national level cuz I when I see that you see the crowd go crazy automatically I thought, wow, we're going to see some changes happen. Yeah. Ken as soon as you said you were getting emotional. I I was going to get emotional with you because it does hit harder when you understand the life. You know what I mean? Yeah. Um I I think the hardest part for me was being a father and seeing my young ones hit the age of where I knew I was stripped away from my mom, right? Like there was emotion there. And um I al also remember like my sister I don't to have some intervention that allows me to sort of dissipate some of those stress hormones that otherwise would tear my body down. And then I do things to make sure that I feel feel good and on top of my game. I I do, you know, weight training uh three or four times a week, but the big thing is I play raetball usually three times a week, No, that that is very similar to what you mentioned that was happening to me at that level for years, you know, and also just telling the story. I remember being very emotional. I mean, it was felt like it was yesterday. The first time I had to tell, not that I had to tell them, but I remember having the conversation with my wife. We talked about that. And um then I said, "You know what? I'm going to we're really having a great conversation around this. I love what you guys have been doing in the organization. And as we start to wrap this up, Ken, because we could do this over and over, we might have to have a part two because when we talk about just trauma and at that level that we can really continue on that on that space, but um where can people f find more about you, your story if you have something a platform, website, LinkedIn, whatever that may look like, life without turning that around. And basically, you have to rewire the brain and turn it back around to where connection is again safe. That's the biggest piece of it. So if if I'm in that hyperaroused, anxious state and I find drugs or alcohol and and I find out that when I take the alcohol, I feel okay for a couple of hours, three or four hours, oh wow, it's pretty tempting to move into that in a pretty big way. And so the incidence of drug and alcohol addiction among those with a high ASIS score is very very high. And those with mental health issues very high. They have personality disorders. They have depression. They have bipolar disorder. They have ADHD. I mean it just makes the wheels come off socially and physically. Yeah. And it goes back to these kids don't need um generic care, right? They need people who get it, people that that lived it or studied it deep in a sense. Um cuz everything that you're mentioning, man, it it I can relate, you know, the sexual abuse part. I it it was so hard when I first started even talking about it and my wife wanted to ask these questions. I used to get so mad, Ken, and tell her I remember one time being really upset and said, "Ask one more question and that's it. I don't want to answer these questions anymore." like now because that's me first opening and it was just it would hurt you know having these conversations. Um why does general therapy missed the mark though you think for adoptes and foster youth? Yeah the you know you think about it the instant bond that you and I had when I just talked about being adopted and both of us have been sexually abused and we've got this hiasis score. I am just drawn to other people that fundamentally get the makeup of me and it's not perfect understanding of me but it's a shortcut and I know that you can you you get an idea of why I am where I am and if I'm in treatment going towards the treatment arena a generalist just applying generalist you know behavioral tools or whatever but not really understanding the root cause and that the brain is damaged that Dr. Bruce Perry and others vesselander Kulk and Gabbor mate and those that that they really get the thing to apply. I'll do something that has some good attached but to really understand what creates that allows me to be much more surgical in my application of attachment theory and interventions so I can get better and more longasting movement. You need specialty care. Generalist is okay. I'll take it. Specialist is better. Yeah. What does that real trauma-informed care actually look like when you talked about what you guys are doing? Um and not just that buzzword stuff, right? Like really for someone to understand what does it actually look like to get into this space of of getting the assistance needed? Yeah. It's here. It's funny. Here I am adopted. I have this high ASUS score and I 2002 I land in a residential treatment center and I'm just seeing all the adopted kids. I really hadn't been trained in my PhD program to understand the effects of trauma. I had to start doing the research on my own. I became a specialist in trauma attachment and all that in 2003 and four and ultimately then went and launched you know a specialty program for that. So what does it mean? It means understanding at a foundational root that when you pair, you know, any sort of stimulus like touch with sex and that becomes the message in my brain, that is a maladaptive attachment. And I I got to change that. And if you break it apart, what you've got is a a neuron that says touch equals and is connected to sex. Well, that means I'm never going to really quite understand safe touch. So, adaptive helpful in our lives. That's the quick version. Ken, what a journey to get here, man. Cuz you sold the business that started, you know, got into this space. You really retired, right? Was that you saw the business of retired? Yeah, I did. So, so I started a place called Kao. C A L O. It's uh in Missouri. and uh had an amazing team. We built this trauma focused place for 96 at any given time it was 95 to 98% adopted kids and coming out of the foster care system or Eastern European block and have all this trauma and we're we're helping them get better and it was just phenomenal great team. We we did great work and ultimately we got purchased. We were I had a minority ownership stake and we had a group come in and buy us um and helped build that for some length of time. Brought on some other programs that were complimentary and started building a platform that ultimately became Embark Behavioral Health. Uh right before it really became all of that. I left in 2015 sold the rest of my ownership and Embark's done some amazing things and become really big and that's exciting. So, I go and retire, buy a lake house, get up every day at 7:00 and go water skiing with my kids and then send them to school. It's really fun. And by the end of the first summer, I'd had a blast. And then my kids went back to school and it wasn't any fun. The next summer, I was kind of bored. Still kind of cool. But by the end of the second summer, I'm like, "This is stupid. I'm not waiting all year to have fun again. While my kids were at school, I got to get to work." And my wife was like, "You know, this is a bad look. you're you're you're some stay-at-home dad, but you're not doing any of that stuff. You're just So, so yeah, uh I was able to hook up with a great group of people in Cedar City doing work at what was called Havenwood Academy, and that became the basis for the Hope Group. They already had that entity, but weren't using it. Uh so, I'm making it too long, but anyway, Havenwood became the platform for the Hope Group. And then we've expanded and we've got four different sites in young adult and outpatient, intensive outpatient and just doing some really great work that's getting recognized and doing well. And is this local? Is this uh throughout the country? What does the organization look like when it comes to just um scaling? You bet. Our referrals for all of the teen residential comes from across the country. I don't think we have a single Utah kid and we've got oh 45 or so in residence boys and girls just started the boys program in the Salt Lake area and then the young adult comes from all over the country too and they're in Cedar City and they go to Southern Utah University and and get jobs and stuff like that. And then we've got an outpatient in Salt Lake and that is all local where it's intensive outpatient and partial hospitalization and they it's called Emerge all women le for traumatized women and they come and get really terrific care there in that local community. So that's the general gist of it and expanding. And and you mentioned just adding the boys program. Was that just because we wanted to um get the women's program done right and then move on to boys or did you realize the boys were just more in need? Like where did that come about in the last I'm guessing couple years or so? Yeah. So growth is one of our four core values and growth is kind of personal. You know, I I believe in sharpening the saw as Steven CVY would say and so, you know, listening to great podcasts like your own and Alex Ramoszi and you know, Tim Ferrris and and always trying to sharpen that saw. But it's also growth in terms of the business. You're you're never you're never holding still. There is no such thing as coasting. That's death. You're growing or you're dying, one or the other. And we believe in growth. So we were always looking for the next opportunity and had been considering and and brought on the leader for the boys program 7 8 months ago and started looking for a site and just barely got that all ready to go and opened last week. So yeah, we're we're always looking to grow. We'll get our feet under ourselves for the next probably year and then we'll be looking probably towards the east eastern side of the United States. That's good. How does it make you feel man to know that you do have this program coming in? I mean, obviously we're males and knowing that when it comes to we just don't have a lot of male role models, at least I didn't see that growing up. So, I think this is huge that you guys have a boys program, obviously someone that's kind of been in the system, so understands that as well. Um, how does that make you feel knowing that you're now going into this space? Yeah, it's pretty exciting. We got a guy named Charlie Falatea who's got deep background in the residential treatment world and he's running it and he's he is such a good role model for these kids. just this gregarious smart Polynesian stud who knows how to mentor these guys and bring the right team together that can do the same thing. Brings on a lot of us Polynesian culture and friends and they do some really terrific work with these guys. So it it's pretty fun, man. you you know I I I get emails and texts still from kids that I worked with 20 years ago talking about there's one that's an attorney was over in China for a while and you know she was close to death when she arrived at the residential program where I was and to see that kind of success she's married she's happy and you know I could name a bunch of of those kinds of stories that's amazing you know to come out of the trauma world things aren't going well and they're on a path to where mom and dad are worried about you know having to identify by a body. I've had that said to me to success interpersonally and professionally. That's pretty great. someone's life. Um, I sit here and think about where I'm at in my life, and I can imagine you can attest to this, is we got here because we had great people in our lives that seen us for who we were, uh, and not for what was going on in that moment, you know, and and and and allowed us to just move forward, you know, throughout our lives. So, being that for someone and knowing that you guys found someone that can do that for other men, for other young boys, and they can see the other side, I think it's it's it's it's cool. It's cool. It's cool that you're retired. Um, it's life happens for reasons, right? I always say you retired, had fun, got bored, and said, you know, how do I continue to have fun? You're having fun. I can imagine. Does this feel like work at any time? Yeah, I'm having a great time. I'd like to talk a little bit about what you just said, too, that this, you know, a decent person being a mentor for for you. So the aces, the great mitigator of a high aces score is at least one securely attached adult as a mentor in your life that can undo the damage or diminish a whole bunch of it. Just one person. And like you say, you had somebody that did that for you. I had a guy named Vern Spy, just a dude from church. He died a few years ago, not even knowing quite what he did that changed the trajectory of my life. He just believed in me so much. my my adopted dad was another one of those. And uh absent those guys in my life, you know, the same path as me or the same aces score as me, my I've got a little brother who's a year and two days younger and he did not get that mentoring. He just did not. And he's at Utah State Prison and it's got another 10 or 12 years before he'll be out in and out of prison his whole life. And uh I really think that a huge part of that is not getting that mentoring and a little bit of treatment that could have changed the course for him. There's a lot of things happening in this space when we talk about adoption. Um one is the endall adoption. We kind of touched on that as we were talking offline at some point, but also was very surprised on what Trump just did, right? Um and and putting so much focus on foster kids. What is your thoughts on all this, man? Like I think this is huge for it to be now kind of highlighted at that level where the president is talking on national TV, but then we also have you mentioned something about endall adoption. I don't know a little kind of weird on what's kind of happening on both sides. What is your thoughts? Yeah, I got to say I I'm incredibly grateful. Melania I think is behind this from everything I can understand. I don't think doesn't look like it was necessarily Trump's big baywick or anything he would have done something about, but but he did to his credit. And holy moly, this this could be a big gamecher. If there are dollars, that then means eyeballs and resources flowing toward that population. That's a big deal. The kids in foster care, uh, I want to make sure I get these stats right. But if they age out in foster care, they have an almost 50% chance of winding up homeless and on the streets. Oh my gosh. and just having been in foster care has it's one in 10 of those that spend time homeless then and on the streets at some point. So, and then all the mental health issues and everything that go with it. So, this is a population that needs our attention and help right now and this could be a really big deal. We're we're hoping to figure out how to deploy some of those dollars to add those kids that have aged out to our engage program that is the transitional stuff we do in Cedar City. It would be phenomenal. I love that. There was actually talking about that transition space. There was an organization out in Detroit and I can get it to you offline if you want, but I was very intrigued on this woman that sold her house to build a facility. So, she was an educator. there was a research happening at I forgot what the college was. The research got so intense that um they needed a place for these young kids to actually stay. So they got uh a place and some of these kids just kind of ran away from home because of trauma or kids that aged out. So they're homeless. So these are young, you know, young teens in a sense. Um it got to the point it's getting so big because so many kids are just, you know, showing up here and they're really making a difference that they're trying to get this church right. and she talks the story on one day she remembers going outside looking at a lot across the street and saying, "Yo, one day I'm going to have a facility where these kids can actually live." She um she shared a story on the news. Someone seen it while he was in the hospital and wanted to meet the woman, right? And the dude was sick. Took him a year to get better. And um when he got better a year later, right, he says, "Hey, I would love to take a walk." It was this big I forgot like this big mansion. I forgot who it was. You probably know by I share the story. I have to get you the exact information. And and and hope. But let's go back to the end adoption. What do you think on that? I can't remember the me the the gentleman you said mentioned that. What was the gentleman's name? Oh, ending adoption. Yeah. So, Moses Pharaoh, he's actually the son of Woody Allen, adopted son of Woody Allen and Mia Pharaoh. And uh he had a pretty abusive background in his adopted family, being raised by Mia Pharaoh. And he he's landed in this place where he he just is extremely persuasive and intense. He's a good, kind, wonderful human being. I've known Moses for years. Uh, but he wants to end all adoption. We He believes that it is child trafficking at its core, full stop, and that we just need to end all adoption and then we'll figure out what we do next. And they should mostly be staying with their parents. I I Wow, it's it's a just a stunning kind of position to take because all right, so what then? See, and I I think if I was capturing what he's saying and his belief, he would say, "It doesn't don't ask me about what then. We need to end the child trafficking. We can talk about what's the next steps are then." I find that to be a little irresponsible. I I don't know how you end adoption without some plan in place. And I I am not a fan of the idea of ending adoption, being careful and not having kids go into bad homes or following up and stopping things if it does turn into that kind of a situation. I think that makes more sense. But anyway, he's kind of at the forefront of that movement. It's a small movement. It's not generally and widely known. Um, but I I think it's worth keeping an eye on. If the Heart and Hustle podcast has ever sparked any idea or made you think differently, do us a favor. Make sure to guys share this, post it on LinkedIn, or even text that nonprofit friend that you just have. Whatever works. This is what keeps the conversation going and allows us to just grow this community together. Seriously, we appreciate you. Yeah, there's a lot of things keep Yeah. when it comes to the space where we just mentioned, you know, with the Trump administration and and there's just so many different things, we don't know what it is, but there's so many great people out there that are doing great things such as your son. You mentioned that he also adopted out of foster care. What was that moment like for you, man? You get to see your son adopt knowing that you were also adopted. Yeah. You know, it's it's interesting because here I'm in this adoption space. I'm working with these kids all the time and I really there was never a temptation to go adopt myself because I did it all day for a job already and it was it's pretty intense. You know, it takes a lot of emotional energy. Uh so my kids have grown up seeing the work that I do and given up you know weekends where I'm just too busy. I you know when I started Kao with my team when we started it you know I was working 80 hours a week sometimes and they you know they remember those days. That was hard. So, I was shocked when my oldest, who's married now, and and they had a couple of kids, they decided that they wanted to foster. I Okay, super cool. And then they started talking about adopting. And uh ultimately, this young girl that had come from a tough situation, I'm not supposed to go into it deeply, which is totally cool. Anyway, she'd come from a tough tough situation. They fostered the know why she may feel some type of way but um I'm much older now but I remember my nieces finding out a little older maybe 12 13 years old that their uncle was adopted right to me it was like nothing to me it's like it's cool now that I'm adopted I can share this story my sister felt like why why are other siblings that are not adopted why are they sharing this story it's not their story to share um to me I I said yeah I am adopted you know and to share that story and I say it now with just so much pride that I am, you know, I and and it made it's so special that I was chosen into this family and yes, life wasn't the best, but man, look where I'm at now today, you know, and anytime that I can kind of look back at where I'm at today, I'm just so grateful. Actually, the one word that anyone when someone asked me, Ephrain, how do you feel about life? everything you've had to encounter, you know, the trauma. I say I'm so grateful, Ken, because without some of these things that have experienced in my I've experienced in my life, I I can't give the testimony, right? Like there's there's no testimony without that test. And I feel like there were so many tests in my life that allowed me to be where I'm at today. Allow us to be advocates, allow others to see, you know, people men at that like me and you and say, "Wow, if these guys did it, so can I." And so I still don't like to share their story enough, but I'm so glad that I met you that we're willing to really share their story together and that you one day can also share the story with your your your granddaughter, you know, and who knows, you know, your your son is really keeping the legacy alive of someone gave you a chance, your son is giving someone else that same opportunity. Yeah. You know, it'll keep that moving cycle. And you're you're still doing it as well. It's not like you're not doing it. You're doing it at a higher level. So man, you just said that. I don't know. I start these emotions and I get it. I understand why you got emotional. You know what I mean? Like it I also mentioned to you one day maybe or I got I want I got a one and a four-year-old. It's a little tough but maybe after the one and four year get a little older. I'm in the space of adopting man. I've always since a young kid I said hey I wanted to have two kids and adopt two kids. It was something that planted since I was a young kid. I don't know where that comes from but I'm a big believer that there's so many seeds that are planted in our minds and not by by accident, right? We got to kind of go back and figure what why that was a thought at such an early age. pickle ball, stuff like that. And so I'm I try and stay really active and that's just fun. you know, 59 years old and still able to go out and find some 20some year old and pound him on the raet ball court playing some tournament and win and have them show up and they look at my kind of truncated movements. I don't have a whole lot of range of motion like I used to and they think they're going to beat up on me and I do pretty well. That's fun. I I get a kick out of that. I love it. Yeah. No, that's so cool. Listen, I I hope when I'm 59, 60 years old, around that age that I still have just as much energy as you do. I look at my neighbor all the time. I make fun of him. He's 49. I'll call him 50. I said, "Man, you're an old man." He's like, "You wish you can do what I do at this age, but look at you, almost 60. You wish you could do what I do at this age. I love it, man. I I I mingle with folks that are, you know, kind of the same shape as me. So, I I I'm happy about it and think that it's it's real achievable. I I It's not a mystery. It really is. Just putting in the same work there as you would maybe at work or something." And uh I it embarrasses me to think it's it's not that special if you'll just work at it. You just a little bit of work at it and you'll be doing the same thing. You will look like I do at 59 and 60. You you'll be doing fantastic. It's just the way that you're built. Yeah, man. Definitely. Definitely. Uh what would you say to someone who's carrying a trauma story, Ken, and stills afraid to tell it? I think that's also happening a lot, especially in our elders. That's a great point. you know, the demystification of it is a big deal, taking ownership of the story. I do think there's just something in, like you found, telling the story. I I I did a presentation focused on my own adoption and trauma for the first time probably 15 close to 15 years ago, and that was that was this keynote that I gave and it was tough and it was then the beginning of doing it so much that it doesn't have power over me anymore. and then, you know, my own therapy and work on it. But, you know, I I talk like you do about sexual abuse. You know, I was it started for me when I was 7 years old. And so, if if you're triggered by sexual abuse and don't want to hear stuff, just I would say skip past the next 60 seconds or so. Um, but for me, it was full penetrative sex by the age of eight years old. And, uh, that's that's unfortunate. I say that without flinching a whole bunch. You know, it's not painful for me now. Uh but that was the deal and laid the groundwork for some some tough times. And uh you know, I figuring all that out and and trying to tease that out and find out he healthy sexuality and have a a good marriage and and work with my kids and not pass this legacy on in some way, even if it's not sexual abuse, but just lingering effects of trauma. That was a big deal to me. I wanted to be what what we call a transitional figure. I hope tell my friends." I felt like I was living a lie. And I remember pulling over to this bank cuz I was on the way to do a deposit for the for the restaurant I was in at that moment. And I just pulled over just crying, sending a text message. And I don't know that I ever cried as much after that because that was the first time I ever really mentioned it. And um it was it was hard and it became easier. And then I started to talk about it publicly like Facebook. So my mom I you know that I called my mom that adopted me. She's really my aunt. this is the first time she's hearing it and she was in shock and I remember her we were out and about at SeaWorld and she tries to have this conversation with me like what happened and all I could tell her is like don't worry about it just know that life happened. I'm stronger because of it and I've already, you know, dealt with the situation because I think I told you that my my wife when I was starting my organization at 20ome years old, she says, "How are you going to help somebody else if you haven't helped yourself, Ephra?" And I was like, "What do you mean? What does that look like to help myself?" And she said, "You need to go have a conversation with the person that wasn't doing it all along." And I'm like, "Whoa." You know, and to my surprise, I did. All right. I did have the conversation. felt like I was bringing in a Grammy. I'm not going to lie to you, Ken, because I was doing something that a lot of people don't have the chance to do, you know. Um, so I had the conversation. What I found out to my surprise was that it was happening to him as well, right? Goes back to breaking the cycle that continues, right? And at some point, we have to break that cycle. So, it's like don't be afraid of your story cuz the right people will actually meet you in it. Yeah. And help you along the way. Yeah. Yeah. you know, so I'm I'm I'm glad that you just opened up as much because a lot of people won't open up in that sense and but I could definitely relate, man. And I just want people to that are watching this to understand you're not alone. Let me Yeah, thank you. And let me let me even go a little bit further and talk about this. So there was there was sexual abuse, you know, and it was that was pervasive and went on for oh 3 years or so. And and then you're it's sort of a virus, you know, once you've got it, you start introducing it too. And I I went through a stage like that for a couple of years. Oh man. and then got it got arrested, thank heavens, and and stopped at the age of 12. Uh oh, thank heavens. And there was a lot of physical abuse. So, here's another thing I would say to anybody listening. You've got to see that having had the experience as a problem and and you've got to figure out what to do to deal with that, to dissipate it and have it not be normal for you. and and to also not carry shame like the the level of shame I carried and the belief that I couldn't sustain a relationship that lasted forever. It was awful. Okay, so the physical abuse uh I was, you know, there's no way around it. I I was I was beaten by my my mom. uh she had a paddle and tri delta sority paddle and she's using on that with us using that on us as I don't know 9 10 years old for many years and uh you know I don't know what happened to her I I've never been able to fully get the history and and I really I had a we talk about had an Iawaska experience that helped me reconcile with her. We'll chat about that if we want. But anyway, the physical abuse. I believe spanking was kind of part of the recipe and was wondering. But then I I had this experience with my oldest son at the age of a year and a half maybe. And I spanked him and left a bruise. A one and a half-year-old. I spanked him and I I left this bruise. My mother-in-law was in town. She she sees this when she's changing his diaper. all I'm like I'm realizing, oh my gosh, I am on the path to continuing what I said I would never do. I'm not going to be a transitional figure in this way. So, I removed and it was not easy. It took some just gut work. Removed spanking and physical, you know, corporal punishment out of my repertoire and it I just don't didn't parent that way. And uh that was a game changer. Still have to work on my intensity. My kid my older kids talk about that to some extent. you know, there's funny stories and also, you know, understanding on their part, but I've just slowly become a more patient, connected dad and not allowed this to rule the way that I interact with my children. So, to those listening, if you see any seeds of it, do something, you know, find the help, consider, figure out how to change the way that you are. It's possible to do. Yeah, it is. it it the one moment that I can remember I had a moment and my mom I I was always scared to talk to her you know um she had seven kids two jobs and now I get it as an adult I get it right she she was very overwhelmed at work it was a lot there was seven different characters at home this person doing this like she just didn't know how to um control her anger I would say or control and I get it you know now but um one day I always tell my was very just you just never know when she was in a good good mood. That's why I never really asked questions. It was very our our relationship was very tough growing up because I just didn't know when to talk to her, when to not talk to her. So anyway, I remember something happening and I think my wife said something and it just triggered me. And this is when I have my young, you know, my young daughter. Um I only had the one. But all I can think is I think I threw something across the room, right, in anger. And my wife is just standing there almost in fear and and and fear because oh my god our young daughter right and I remember walking away like oh my god I can't believe I got to that point I can't believe it and I obviously apologized had to have the conversation like there's moments in my life as well Ken and I'm so early on I can imagine that this is just really the beginning where I had to remember what you mentioned we're here to break cycles right we we we're here to um we we just don't have to be afraid anymore. We We just have to do the right things. We have to work very hard. People look at us and I can imagine you people say this, you're lucky, you're blessed. It but also to find out more about the organization. What is the URL for that? So anybody that wants to know more about the hope group can go to hopegrouphealth.com and I have a podcast called the voice of hope and you can find that anywhere that you find podcast stuff voice of hope and u you know there's more about me not so much me it's mostly about people that I interview but that's okay that you can get a little bit of information along those lines that's probably the place to go. I didn't know this. So you're a host as well? Uh that's right. Oh my god Ken. So you're in the hot seat today. This is a little different for you right now. I've done this a fistful of times and I I probably should have mentioned that. I'm sorry. I Yeah. No, I love it. Now I feel like I'm being judged at the end of this. I'm going to ask you how did I do. You know what? As I'm sitting here thinking I'm like, why am I not having Ephen come be with me? So, you got to come down be my my podcast, too. We got to do it. We got to do it. So, I ask you this question before we wrap it up. Um, this is the blind question we ask our leaders. If you could sit down with your adopted mom today, what would you say to her knowing everything you know now? my adopted mom, the woman who abused me, and I say that with no anger. Truly, uh, I got to say this pretty much um about a year before she died, year and a half before she died. And it it made the death we I was there the whole time right there whispering in her ear as she passed away. And I would say the same thing that I was able to say. And it I I got to have this powerful spiritual experience uh with an Iawaska retreat where I realized that she was doing truly the best she could. And so I went to her bedside. She wasn't functioning very well staying with her at the time of this retreat. And so I I went to her bedside. I put my forehead up against her forehead. And she was a little shocked. you know, we we weren't tr close. Um, and I just put my forehead against her forehead and I said, "I know you did everything you could. No shame. I'm not angry. I love you. Thank you for giving me everything that you could. It's okay. You You've done good stuff." And that just that love uh allowed us allowed us to bust down some walls. And, you know, she wasn't a safe person. And so we I couldn't we didn't get, you know, super close or anything after that. But I wasn't I I hope it broke down some fear and let us just let her let me and other family, my wife, some of my kids be there and take care of her. We were those last three days as she was just actively dying. We were right there with her. So that's what I'd say. Wow. Well, Ken, I appreciate you, man. You are a tough cookie. Um, for sure, man. and almost at 60 years old still making a difference and I love that and I hope to be your age still having these conversations about making a difference breaking cycles because it's not happening with you it's happening with uh myself it's happening so many people that are listening and if you ever feel in a time that you're alone you're not right we we thank Ken for the conversation we thank the organization that what you guys are doing and how you guys are helping and and now starting this you know men's program young boys program super excited and when I'm in the area, just know that I'm I'm I'm reaching out. Okay, Ken. And I can't wait to be on your podcast, guys. My name is Ephrain. This is Ken. Make sure you guys follow his podcast because I'm pretty sure I'm be there at some point. Hopefully. I don't know. Ken, we thank you. See you on the next one. Thanks, Ephan. Great hanging out with you. Cheers.

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