The Students Everyone Gave Up On Are Now Doctors and Dentists — Here's Why | Chris Powers

[0:16]  Welcome back to another episode here of the Heart and Hustle Podcast. Chris Powers, what's up, man? How are you doing today?

[0:21]  I'm doing great.

[0:23]  I'm doing good, my man. I'm super excited for this conversation because I just want to start off with what your dad said to you that got you kind of in this higher ed space. As a son, he said, "You've got a brain. Go use it."

[0:34]  Yes, sir.

[0:35]  What did that mean to you, man? To hear that from a man who never got the chance himself, right?

[0:40]  I don't know. I'm very thankful for my father. He passed on in 1999 when I was 29 years old. And at such a young age when he said that, I really didn't understand what he meant until he really broke it down for me. Because in his way, he was saying, "Son, I didn't have those opportunities. You've got these opportunities. You've got the brain." My dad was a very intelligent man, don't get me wrong. He was a gifted mechanic and a gifted carpenter, and he could build anything. I'm not kidding. Anything. And none of that has really been passed on to me genetically. So, I can do a little, but not much. But hearing that from my father, you know, it caused a stir within me.

[1:28]  Yeah.

[1:29]  And it was like, you know, I am an okay student, and you know, I can do this because I was the first one in my family to go to school. So, for my father, with a seventh-grade education, to say that, I thought that was very intelligent of him to have that ability to realize something in me that I didn't even know that I had. Right? And I think as parents, we identify that in our children and we try to bring that out. You know, maybe he thought, "Yeah, you're not going to be able to make it as a mechanic or a farmer, so you need to go to school." Maybe that was his way of saying that, but that's not the way I interpreted it. And even years later, when I brought that up to him, he was like, "Yes, son. I always wanted you to go to college. I didn't want you to have to break your back or, you know, break your hands to make a living. It's a hard life that way."

[2:29]  Okay. So, your dad tells you that and then you end up in higher ed. What's your role today? What's the school you represent, and how did we get to this point?

[2:40]  Sure. I'm a vice president for enrollment. I have roughly 25 years of experience in higher ed. I'm with Mount St. Joseph University. We are a Catholic global arts institution in Cincinnati, Ohio. Much of my path into higher education really starts at Berea College, where I did my undergrad in Kentucky. It put such an imprint on me to give back, right? To give back to the community, to have a social justice focus in what you do. Higher ed was a great path for me. Now, I dabbled in the Air Force and restaurant work before I landed in higher ed like a lot of young people do, right? Until you figure it out. But that social justice compass was really instilled in me at Berea College, and I'm very thankful for that experience and what it's done for me. You know, it's taken me on a road to servant leadership, and that's basically what I enjoy about my job — being a servant leader, not only to my team but to the students because that's why we're here at a university. For anyone who's at a university, whether you're a research university or a small private, if you're not there for the students, you're there for the wrong reasons.

[4:06]  And that was instilled in me very early on.

[4:11]  I love it, man. I mean, really kind of go back to what your dad said about seeing in you probably more than you saw in yourself at the time.

[4:18]  Oh, sure.

[4:20]  And it's really what you're doing — the same exact thing, right? Some of these students that come into college probably don't see themselves graduating, probably didn't see themselves ever going to school, but you guys are that light. I've heard something from Ethan that I can't forget out of the University of Hartford, and he says, "We're fertilizing the future, right?" And it's exactly what we're doing — really giving the future the ability to go out and realize what their worth, you know, what their value really is. And I love the university and college levels just because mistakes can happen, right? You go into a corporate world. You talked about the restaurant business, right? Oh my god. I listen, I never want to go back. I don't know if you feel that way, but...

[5:01]  I joke and tell my wife the only way I'm going back to the restaurant is if we're going to be homeless.

[5:05]  And I mean, because it's rough work, man.

[5:07]  It really is.

[5:08]  Yeah, it is, man. So, it's just cool. First, I want to say thank you for your service, right? As you did mention the Air Force. What got you into the Air Force? Was that straight out of high school that you got there?

[5:19]  Oh, actually, I did it in reverse. I went to Berea first and graduated, and at that time, you know, to be transparent, there was a downturn in the economy, right? And you know, so this was like in 1993, and I'm like, "You know what? I want to serve my country." I want to and I'm always has a long plan, right? You always have a long plan. And I want to get money for graduate school. So, that's what motivated me. My intentions were to go and enlist for like a year or two and then become an officer. But in my mind, I was like, "I'm going to test drive the Air Force and see what it's all about." And like two years in, I'm like, "Yeah, I'm going to do my four and I'm done." So, those folks that serve for 25, 30, 35 years, kudos to them. I did my four years, and I was very proud to serve our country and serve in the Air Force, and I got money for grad school. So, you know, my master's at UVL was paid for by my time in the Air Force.

[6:20]  I love that. So, kind of go back to your dad and the words that he said about seeing more in you than you seen in yourself. I want to kind of go back to the story, man, because nothing was handed to you, right? You were in a rural area, rode a bus, if I'm not mistaken, three hours a day to get to school. Is that correct?

[6:39]  Yes, sir. We kind of moved around with my dad's job. You know, I was born in Cincinnati, and we lived in a rural part outside of Cincinnati. His job took us down to Atlanta, which was a culture shock, and we can get into that in a few minutes. And then I had another culture shock because we went back to Kentucky where my parents grew up, and my father purchased a farm that his dad settled. My grandfather and grandmother came from Virginia into Kentucky. Now they grew up in a holler in southwest Virginia. So I do have ties to the holler.

[7:22]  What is a holler for those that don't know?

[7:24]  Sure. A holler is an area. It's usually a valley or a lower part between two mountains.

[7:32]  Got it.

[7:33]  And you know, there's definitely a holler in Wise County, Virginia. And that's where my grandparents were from in that area. And coming from that part of Kentucky, you know, once we moved from Atlanta to Kentucky, yes, I was on a bus because at that time I was in high school. So I was on a bus for an hour and a half to and an hour and a half back because my high school was 26 miles away from where I lived. In that part of Kentucky, you have one high school per county. For the kids who lived in town, right, Stanford, the high school was like 5 to 10 minutes away. For those of us who were further out, it was 26 miles away. So, easily, if you just drove it straight in a car — and there's no highway, you got to understand that.

[8:23]  So it took, you know, 30, 40 minutes just to get to school in a car straight.

[8:27]  Wow.

[8:28]  And a bus just added to that.

[8:30]  Yeah. What do you think all that moving around really taught you and how you see the world?

[8:36]  I'll tell you. It taught me a lot about humility. It taught me a lot about not everybody's experience is the same, and it taught me to really embrace diversity at a different level because where I grew up in Ohio, everyone looked like me. You know, all of our dads were blue-collar. I didn't have any diversity in any of my schools. And we moved to ATL, and you know, Atlanta, it's very diverse. I heard for the first time different languages in the hallway, you know, Latinx students speaking, but also you have to understand this was in the early 80s, so there was a large migration from the Vietnam War — students from Vietnam, from Cambodia — they were speaking their languages as well. It was the first time I had a male teacher that didn't look like me. So Atlanta really taught me to embrace difference. And then on the flip side, when we relocated to Kentucky where my parents grew up, it was a total 180, you know, because it's not diverse, and the diversity that was there was pocketed. So going in there with a very open mind benefited me. You know, I was able to make friends quickly. I played football, so a lot of it was just playing with the guys I played football with. But no, the diversity is probably the most valuable experience I had, you know, moving the way that I have. And then that prepared me for Berea because Berea is very, very diverse, you know, with international students, also African-American students and Latinx students.

[10:28]  Man, how long you been at this school now?

[10:35]  I have been at Mount St. Joe for five years, and I was at Thomas Moore, which is a similar school in Northern Kentucky, a Catholic private school for five years.

[10:46]  And you Catholic yourself?

[10:48]  No, I'm not Catholic myself. But what's odd is our sons, my wife and I, she went to a Catholic high school, but she was never Catholic. And we've sent both of our boys K through 12 to Catholic schools. I really cherish the Catholic intellectual tradition and the way that they blend faith and service into their curriculum. My boys have been blessed. Our oldest boy, he's a fourth-year engineering student at the University of Cincinnati. He's currently in Japan for eight months on a co-op, and he just got into that culture. I hope that my wife and I had some things to do with that, but I'm convinced it's his experience in high school with the Catholic intellectual tradition, right? Embracing not only the Catholic faith but all faith and all people, and he's thriving over there. So, I'm very excited for his opportunity. But a lot of that comes from the way that my wife and I have raised our boys. We've tried to teach them about differences and valuing other folks' opinions, other points of view, not to be so myopic, right? Not just to have your own point of view — there's a world out there, go discover it.

[12:10]  Man, I love it because it also just shows how aligned you are with the mission, right? That your own faith background is even matter. It's truly just about what we talked about — fertilizing the future, giving other people opportunity, showing that it's possible. And you've been doing that for years. You also had an interesting story on the sisters and how it got started and how that got founded. Can we kind of share that story?

[12:32]  Yeah, absolutely. The Sisters of Charity, the organization or the sisterhood was founded by Elizabeth Anne Seton in the early 1800s. There was a group of sisters that came to Cincinnati and established the Sisters of Charity of Cincinnati. That was around 1850, and they were very progressive. They've always, as a part of their ministry and their mission, tried to help those in need, but they really have a component of social justice, which is so important. A lot of their emphasis was on education and nursing, and they really went to educate the immigrants of Cincinnati, which were German and Italian. That's how they started, giving those students a leg up, per se, or an opportunity to continue their education, and it's just blossomed. The university was built in 1920, and I believe it was an all-female school up until I think the early to mid-80s, and then it became co-ed at that time.

[13:47]  Man, but that mission has not changed. I mean, those sisters are forces, and it's funny. I know we've had a previous discussion, and I said there's some bad nuns, but you know, bad meaning good, right? They're a force of nature, and the more I work with them, you can see they just live the mission. It's so impressive when you meet people that live their mission, and you know they're just not speaking or, you know, they're just not just word — it's true to them. The nuns that I've worked with through the Sisters of Charity of Cincinnati have just been phenomenal, and they support what we do, of course, and they let you know what they think, right? They're like, "Hey, Chris, have you thought about doing this?" "Yes, sister, I have thought about this." "Well, Chris, have you thought about this?" "Sister, I haven't thought about that, but let's get on that. You know, let's get it done." It's been a blessing to work for a faith-based institution.

[14:56]  I love that. And with 20 plus years in this space, Chris, what have you seen change for the good and things that may need changing now? So many people would say that AI is one that a lot of people are adapting to, but I always hear in higher ed that it is a place that sometimes may be late to integrate. Are you guys there, or what are the technology?

[15:04]  We've definitely engaged in conversations for a while now, and I mean a couple of years. Recently, we've had some campus-wide meetings where we've discussed how we want to integrate AI into the curriculum. We're releasing a new major this fall of '26 that's like a computer science degree with AI. So, you know, we're jumping on board with that because we see that it is a necessity. Again, it can be a slippery slope because with AI, you want to prepare your students, but then you start worrying about, "Okay, is this authentic? Is this moral?" Because there's a dark side to AI, right? As an education institution, you really have to walk that line because we want to prepare our students. Even my son, who's at a nearby university, the University of Cincinnati as an engineering student, they have integrated it into their curriculum because they know that when he goes to get a job, the current firms in engineering are already using AI. So, it's important for us to advance with that. But like anything, kind of like you said, institutions of higher education sometimes are slow to change. I think to answer a question you asked earlier, that's one thing that has improved during my career — we're able to pivot a little quicker than earlier in my career, if that makes sense. Universities are adapting technology, and they are looking at the landscape of higher ed, and it is forcing our hands a bit to be innovative, to get out in front, even small schools like us that compete with large universities for students but also for grant money. Even the small schools are having to be innovative. We're able to probably adapt a little quicker than a larger university just because of our size. But I know that we're working on AI and implementing it as we speak. So I'm very confident that we're heading in the right direction.

[18:20]  Yes, it's not going away. Just like in my youth, they were like, "Oh, rap music, it's a fad. It's never going away." Has it gone away? No. Has the internet gone away? No. It's just gotten more powerful. And AI is going to be the same way. It's just going to keep evolving. So, as educators, we really feel the need to try to get in front of it and just keep pace with it because it's just not going to go away.

[18:53]  No, I agree. I definitely love AI. As you mentioned, there's definitely those guardrails, but it's like if we are able to educate kids or students early on, then they're better off. What I'm seeing in high school is actually — I think I told you that I lead the organization for the high school that I graduated from, and they block all AIs. I'm thinking to myself, the kids are going home and using it, just that I know. So it's like, why are we not helping them at that level to say, "Hey, it's great, you just need to know how to use it?" Because if not, then they're not knowing how to use it. And that's been a lot of our discussion because I think with AI, it can be very applicable to the sciences but maybe not to English or history, where if you're asked to write a paper, they're just going to type in some prompts, and AI is going to spit it out. So we need to still teach students how to think critically but use it in a constructive way. Give them parameters on how to use it.

[19:56]  Do you think that with everything happening right now with schools closing down — I believe there were seven in our county between middle schools and elementary schools that are closed down — what does that really do to the pipeline? Do you think there's a problem there that we just have to look at from a country perspective?

[20:09]  Yeah, I think that's multi-layered. I've been in PI for 10 years, and I've been prepared for this year for the precipice of the cliff, right? You know, from where in 2008 the birth rate dropped 12 to 13%. Now we're seeing those students come of age to get ready for college, and there's less students to recruit nationwide. Now, geographically, different parts of the country — in the southeast, they're seeing more of an uptick like in Tennessee, North and South Carolina of students graduating, but in the Midwest, they're dropping. So, that's one headwind that we've really had to navigate and make plans and be strategic with recruiting.

[20:58]  Now, another headwind — I'm sure you're well-read, and I think we've discussed this before, so you know this. The national report card came out last summer, and basically what the report card revealed is that only one-third of graduating seniors are college-ready in English, math, and science. So that's another challenge for us in higher ed because, to me, it's a great exercise in meeting the student where they are. You have some old guard faculty that have been doing it a while, and they expect everyone to be college-ready or they're expecting everyone to be able to have a 33, 34, 35 ACT and be able to write well on the first day of class, and that's just not true. A lot of schools are having to pivot, and the more they rely on providing that access to students who are still first-gen, you know, that still demonstrate need financially, they're having to meet those students where they are to bring them along. I think that's going to be the big key for universities in the next 10 to 15 years — those that can adapt and meet the students where they are and try to bring them along with any type of academic support that they need.

[22:18]  You know, you speak about the population of students that are neurodivergent, you know, being able to help those students through because that population is growing as well. To meet our mission or to live our mission at the Mount, we have to be prepared for that. A lot of universities are thinking that way, but some will get there quicker than others, for sure.

[22:51]  Oh, sure. I've spoken to some leaders, and you're probably the second leader I've spoken to out of maybe 10 to 15. So, clearly, you're already thinking like, "Hey, maybe we're just in the wrong markets," or "Maybe we should just kind of redirect our strategy." So, I actually love that, man.

[23:10]  And I ask you, man, with 25 years — is it 25 years you said, right? 25 years this year.

[23:13]  What has staying this long taught you that you could not have never learned by leaving?

[23:20]  The resiliency of students. You know, unless you're really in the thick of it, and the more students you work with, you realize that some students do have that resiliency. I've met some students that come from very impoverished backgrounds, very violent backgrounds, and you know, they're in grad school now. One, two of them — one's a dentist and the other is a physician. The way that they came up, I mean, they were in gang-affiliated neighborhoods. You think I'm an anomaly? These kids are just fantastic. Working with the students, what's taught me over the 25 years is, you know, wow, some of these students, they are resilient. They do have the grit despite what some professionals say about Gen Z, like, "Oh, they don't know how to push through," or "They don't have grit like the older generations do," like my generation and the boomers before me.

[24:21]  And you know, that's really taught me that all students are different, man. The longer that I'm in higher ed, I realize that you do have to meet them where they are to ensure success. If you're truly dedicated to higher education and you believe that students deserve a chance and you can help them, then yeah, you got to take a gamble on some students, right? You got to roll the dice. Not all of them make it, but there are some that have that resiliency. That's just something that has really been brought to light to me over the past 25 years. Before, like in corporate, when I was working in a restaurant, I was like, "There's no hope for this dude. He's just dumb as a box of rocks." But you know, when you're in a university setting, your mindset changes. Especially if you've been in it a long time, you just have to see what registers with that student because they all have passion, right? We all have a passion, and it's just tapping into that passion and being supportive and realizing not everyone had your upbringing and not everyone had your breaks in life but had the same road and the same opportunity.

[25:39]  That's the hard part sometimes, right? Because you know where you come from, and you're like, "Man, I'm showing you you can," but you're right — not everybody has the same story. Some people just didn't have the guidance maybe in their lives.

[25:57]  And that's huge. I mean, you've had the guidance. You had someone to tell you that you could, right? What do we say to those students that maybe they're first-gen and they didn't see someone going to college? What do we tell that individual?

[26:08]  Yeah, I mean, based on my experience too, it's so important for those type of students. I really seek those first-gen students out because of my own experience. There's always a certain level of impostor syndrome like, "Man, I don't belong here. I'm not the smartest person in the class," yet neither was I. But, you know, I just put in the work, and I was stubborn. I try to identify with the students because you'd be amazed, especially at a small school. We just did a survey, and one of the questions was, "Who have you connected to outside of the classroom?" A lot of the athletes, of course, said coaches, but a lot of the students they've connected with were just random — a couple of folks were on the custodial staff, right? Those positions matter at every level in higher ed. No matter what you do, a student could identify with you. I've helped a few students even as a vice president. I have people on my staff that have helped students, and it's just encouraging those students and being there for them because a lot of times as a first-gen student, when you're experiencing higher ed for the first time, man, it's like drinking water out of a fire hose. You don't know how to prioritize. You don't maybe know how to take notes. Maybe you didn't have to take notes in high school. So, it could be as simple as just sitting them down and being like, "Hey, Ephine, how'd your week go, man? What's up?" "Well, everything's cool, yada yada, but I'm having this problem." "Okay, what's your problem?" Just really breaking it down. Just taking the time to sit down with them and help them answer any questions where they don't feel like it's a stupid question.

[27:56]  Yep. And that's one of the things working with First-Gen that I've really taken pride in — I'll answer any question, you know, even if they feel that it's stupid. Just reassuring them, "Hey man, I was in your shoes at one time. You know, there's other people that had a journey similar to yours. So, you know, let us help you." And those students who open up who want to help, yeah, I think they thrive.

[28:45]  I don't think I've mentioned this to anybody, but I felt that college is so much easier than high school, to be quite frank. Like, I don't know that high school did any good for me because that transition from high school to college — I'm like, "College is so much more easier." They made it seem like it was so difficult. So, I think there's also that stigma that it is difficult, and it really is not. I think the only difficult part that I had was waiting in line at the student service center trying to get some answers about maybe a class or something, right?

[29:16]  You know, and I think that it probably already changed in how we communicate there. But I would definitely say from a student perspective, man, it was — I thought it was going to be harder than what it was. You know, and I was only doing two classes at a time and working, but even then I still felt comfortable enough with the online. I think one of my classes were online at some point, just being flexible. You know, I don't know. Do you hear that often?

[29:34]  There were students saying, "Man, this is actually easier than what I thought."

[29:36]  Well, some come through that mindset, but I think those are your students that are naturally confident, right? The more confident the student is, I think college transition is much easier. And it's those students who may not have the confidence where they struggle a bit.

[29:54]  But, you know, a lot of the athletes I talked to, you know, they're pretty confident. So, you know, they breeze through their transition pretty well. Not all of them, but some of them do. And I would say just it depends on how structured the student is and their life experience, but I have spoken to some students where, you know, they're like, "Hey, I'm not having any problems." And there's an old rule of thumb that I was taught early on in higher ed. It's the rule of thirds. Like, you know, Chris, one-third of the student population, they're not going to need your help. You know, they're going to be fine. There's going to be one-third that no matter what you do, they're going to fail and leave school. You know, the best identity is that middle third that if you give them a little help, they're going to be successful. So, you know, I've really adopted that law of thirds early on in my career, especially the more I started to work with students, and I've seen that to be pretty true.

[30:23]  But yeah, like you said, it was easier for you than most. And there are students that come through that kind of just walk through the whole process.

[30:40]  Yeah, man. I was in high school. I was like a 2.0 student. In college, I was a 3.5. And I'm like, "Look at me. I'm smart out here. I'm not the dumb kid."

[30:51]  That's maturity, right? You probably more mature.

[30:53]  That was. And you know, life was really life-changing as an adult. Going back to we all had something that we were struggling with growing up. By the time I went to college, I was already living on my own. So, a lot of things that I couldn't control, you know, I couldn't control the uncontrollable, which kind of allowed so many different things to happen at the high school level where I wasn't the best student. But yeah, man, college is where I really started to take control.

[31:26]  I was already working, right? I was already a general manager at 19 years old, so I had some sort of structure, some sort of leadership.

[31:27]  Yeah.

[31:29]  So, yeah, I'm definitely excited to just see that you've given your life to this, man. But who is Chris Powers outside? What is that thing that keeps you grounded?

[31:36]  Man, my wife and kids. I have two boys. Evan's 22, Ben's 18. Chrissy and I, we've been married 23 years, going on 23 years, and they keep me grounded. I mean, it's just so rewarding to be in a healthy marriage, to actually have a life partner who supports you, and we support each other. But just to have two young men and, you know, to raise them, it's just been a blessing. So that's what really keeps me grounded. And you know, my wife, she doesn't play. So I've got no choice but to be grounded, right? But no, she's very proud of my accomplishments professionally, and I'm proud of hers because she went back to finish as an adult student. She started the stereotypical story. She started out of high school but was trying to work full-time, and then the full-time work became more of a priority than her education. She did well, but after we were married and both boys were older, she went back to school, got her BFA, bachelor's in fine arts, and she's an art teacher now, and she loves it. So, I mean, we're blessed. I really have no reason to complain in my life at all.

[32:58]  I love it. Yeah, I am going to be that adult student because I have like two classes to finish to get my degree.

[33:07]  Come on, man. Knock it out. Go online, knock those classes out.

[33:09]  The funny thing is I attempted a couple of times. The last one I was at the airline industry, they were going to pay for it, and it was like those online — I don't like a Penn State University or something like that. But they made me do like a whole bunch of beginning classes again. So, I was doing those, and then life started. I left, and I think I did this again twice. But I do, you know, like your wife, I was very successful. I am still successful in what I do, but it's allowing going back to what we just mentioned — if our kids don't see it, how do they even know it's possible?

[34:02]  So I want to give them both options. Dad was a businessman. Dad was also, you know, went to school and got a degree. Like, you don't want to be less than me, right? You want to be better than dad, so you better go do it, you know. And that's — man, I've set the bar for my boys. I mean, 18 months old, I started setting a bar, and I tell both boys this. I said, "You will never ever have another man in your life that roots for you like me because I'm your father. I'm your dad. I want you to be 10 times better than I am. I want you to be happy and successful, you know. So, I will always support that." And it's the truth. I mean, you know, you don't have to have a college degree to be successful. You know, my father had a seventh-grade education. My mother stayed at home, and they both were successful in their own rights. My wife was successful before she received her education. But an education, I've explained it to my boys, is something they can never take away from you.

[34:44]  You know, if they want to go to school, get a major, and then they want to do something different with their life, at least they're going to have that education to fall back on.

[34:52]  And you know, education now is what I've seen change also in my career. My own experience with higher ed was it's a little more transactional now. People go to school to get a piece of paper to make more paper, right? Back in my generation, you know, it was about finding yourself, finding your path. That's one way education has changed. But to me, it's no less valued. You can get so much out of a degree because you hear so much about, "Oh, just go trades. You're not going to go in debt." But I'm like, "Oh, but you'll go in debt for a $120,000 truck or you're going to go in debt for a house." You know, invest in yourself, and maybe you'll go in debt 40, 50 grand for a college education, but you're betting on yourself. And that concept has really been foreign to me — that people will go out and get a bunch of toys and finance it and go in debt, and that's fine. But I'm like, "You're not going to bet on yourself." You know, you don't want to try to get an education. And there's some folks, you know, college just isn't their path, and that's 100% fine. We need to celebrate all paths. You know, we just need to strive for happiness and success and whatever that looks like in your life, you know, that's great.

[36:12]  Yeah. Funny you say the car because that's — a car loses value as soon as you drive it off the lot, right? But you get that degree, man. There's a two, three, 4x ROI, and you're not losing value as you mentioned. You would always hold on to that value because you've made that investment in yourself. And the investment is so much more than just the piece of paper. It's everything you've learned. It's the people that you've met — the network. When you think about it, and not that I was involved in it, but as I'm sitting here speaking more to individuals, it really is a community where you can fail and be okay, right? And there's someone there to help you — there's someone like Chris Powers or maybe another student at work. You fail, you're on the chopping block, right? Like, so people have to look at it, I think, from different perspectives as well, not just from, "Oh my god, I'm going in debt."

[37:00]  And I think for a very long time, that is a stigma that's been out. It's like, "You're going to go in debt, and then what? You're going to be working forever trying to get that paid off." I don't know that that's true, but it's just the case that a lot of people probably made and becomes a fear for so many others that may have never seen it happen.

[37:17]  Especially the students that are going to school now, you know, Gen Z, they're very sensitive about debt. Both of my boys are just super concerned about college loans. I'm like, "Look, as long as you're not getting like a $150,000 in student loans, you're going to be okay, man." Again, I'm just trying to get them to invest in their future and invest in themselves because, like you said, a college education is more than just papers and tests and reading books. I mean, it's about the experience. And I've explained that to our 18-year-old. I'm like, "Ben, between the age of 18 and 22, you're not going to get those years back. Go experience life at a university. Try different things." I said, "Because once you get your big boy job, things change. You know, you don't have that freedom anymore to just try stuff."

[38:19]  Yep. And life happens fast.

[38:21]  Very fast. Because I said, "Buddy, I remember when I was 18 just like it was yesterday."

[38:26]  Yeah. Chris, man, I thank you so much for your time. I know we're coming here to an end, but where could people find more information about the school, yourself? Are you on LinkedIn? Things like that, so we can continue to connect.

[38:35]  Oh, sure. Yeah, I'm definitely on LinkedIn, Christopher Powers. And then with MSJ, just go to msj.edu to find out more about our university. You can find more information about our mission, more about the Sisters of Charity of Cincinnati, but also what we do. We're a premier D3 university in the Cincinnati area. We have over 20 sports available, but we have a great curriculum, a lot of majors to choose from, and we even have graduate programs such as in physician assistant, doctorate in physical therapy. So we offer a lot for a smaller school.

[39:16]  Love it. Well, Chris, man, thank you so much for your time. For those that are still watching, make sure that you guys do like, share, and comment. This is how we continue to have these conversations. I believe that a lot of times we just don't know what we don't know. And we have people like Chris that get to share some more insight about some phenomenal schools in our own country. You guys got to tap in and find those resources and find out how you can also invest in yourself because that's what it is — an investment. Chris, we thank you. We thank you for watching. We'll catch you on the next one.

[39:41]  Take care. Good to see you.