"We Celebrate Resilience Like a Badge" - Nicole Lawson on What Foster Care Really Needs

0:16 Welcome back to another episode here on the Heart and Hustle Podcast. Next guest has talked about resilience like it's a badge. But what if the system didn't make people fight to so hard to survive?
0:26 What if it lifted them instead of demanding them to overcome? Nicole, welcome. Thank you. I'm glad to be here.
0:33 Of course. Thank you so much. You started as a therapist working with kids in foster care. What did you witness in those early years that made you actually stay and fight?
0:41 Oh gosh. Um those kids quickly just became my hero. their capacity to adapt,
0:49 to forgive, thrive, uh, through chaos, quite frankly, was just so inspiring.
0:56 Um, that it put my daily life inconveniences kind of into into a whole new perspective. Um, and it was like,
1:02 well, if they can go through that and they can continue to fight and thrive,
1:05 who am I to say that I can't do anything, right, that I that I put my mind to? And you didn't just work in the system,
1:13 you actually lived it. Um, what changed in your world view after actually becoming a foster and adopted mom yourself?
1:19 Oh gosh. Um, I I think it probably started with a mom that I worked with pretty early in my career. Um, I I got
1:28 called out to a home. There was a crisis going on. Um, and and
1:35 she had looked at me and started disclosing her own childhood trauma um, in the midst of trying to parent her
1:42 kids. and she said, "Where were you for me? Like, I'm over here doing so much better than what was done for me. Nobody
1:51 came and saved me. Um, and I've done all this and I've come so far by myself and you're coming in here and you're still
1:57 telling me I'm not good enough." Um, and she just had a an indelible mark on me
2:04 and she gifted me a greater curiosity about people, um, more interest in their origin story and a whole lot less
2:13 judgment and made me really appreciate like the uniqueness of experience and perspective. Um, and so a lot of a lot of that experience then led my husband and I to decide to foster and adopt. Um,
2:25 and then, you know, to your question's point, um, it it was frustrating at times when I knew how a system was
2:33 supposed to work and then saw it not work. Um, infuriating would be a better word at and at some points, um, if I'm being honest. But then there's just this odd mix of like tragedy and joy. So,
2:45 like I love my kids to my bones and being their mom is one of the greatest gifts and greatest joys of my life. But
2:53 it's born out of this depth of tragedy that the people who created them didn't get to raise them and that they missed
3:01 out on a lot of experiences that you know I got to have being raised in my family of origin. So it's it's definitely like this weird mix of of grief and joy.
3:11 It is it is um before I even get into my adoption story to kind of give that because I think we talked about me being adopted. I it is it is very hard. Um,
3:19 and I think I didn't realize all the all the hard work and sacrifice that my mom that adopted me really put into place,
3:27 right? Um, because for a long time I was asking myself the why me, the what would life have been? Um, you know, did my mom
3:36 not love me? Like you start asking all these questions and it's not that we don't receive love in the household.
3:41 It's that when you find out you're adopted, the question automatically becomes why, right? and and and you want to know. And anyway, so did you adopt
3:49 kids prior to you having your own kids or did you just adopt kids?
3:54 We we only fostered and adopted. So my daughters are uh they're biological siblings and they came into our lives when they
4:02 were six and 10. So they very much knew uh that they were they were quote unquote in the system.
4:07 Um and then their adoptions were finalized. They were nine and 13. Uh,
4:12 and they are 19 and 23 today and two of the best human beings on the face of the planet if you ask me.
4:20 I love it. That is actually very hard age. Um, six and 10 you said, right? Yeah.
4:25 Why? Why? Because a lot of times people adopt, they don't go older. They usually adopt younger. And that's what happens.
4:32 These older young these older kids stay in the system a lot of the times um and don't get adopted. What made you go six
4:39 and 10? Um, I think it it was really those experiences of having worked with those families in my career. Um, I saw
4:47 what those kids experienced and a lot of times like I like to use the um the image of the iceberg, right? Like people
4:54 see what's on top and they might see kids acting out. They might see kids angry at a system. Um, but I really had
5:01 the honor and the privilege of working with so many kids that I got to see that underneath that I got to see that fear of abandonment, that mistrust of a
5:08 system. Um, all of the things that kind of went into what can be challenging about bringing older kids into your
5:15 home. Um, so when we signed up to be foster parents, you know, we had said, um, you get to you really get to pick,
5:21 right? Like what ages are you willing to foster? Um, are there certain, you know,
5:26 behaviors or certain things that you're uncomfortable with? and we pretty much said any and all um are welcome. The one thing we said that that we couldn't do
5:34 was um if if any child unfortunately had a history of cruelty to animals because we had animals in our home and we didn't feel like that would be fair. Um so I
5:42 think it was just kind of the luck of the draw that you know our kids came into into care and they needed a home and there we were.
5:49 That's so good because so many times you hear kids at that age just kind of get overlooked, you know. I was actually um
5:57 2 years old when I was taken from my biological mom and and fostered with my aunt. And uh my sister was 6 months or
6:04 something like that. And you just talk about just life happening. I I even think about the I don't have a huge relationship with my biological mom.
6:12 Actually, I don't have a relationship at all with my biological mom. I know who she is. Um unfortunately, she's still,
6:18 you know, um an addict, right? Living on the streets.
6:23 very unfortunate to even think about that. And sometimes I I think to myself,
6:28 I wish that I could just have this conversation. Actually, I think at some point, I'm 35 years old now, and realizing life as a parent, um, and
6:35 someone put this in perspective. How do you think your mom feels that all her 10 kids were stripped away from her? Where do you think her self-confidence is at?
6:44 What do you think she knows her worth?
6:45 And it's like, you're right. And she might have been fighting for these kids.
6:49 I just don't know the story. And not that I want to know the story at this point in my life, but more of I want to have the conversation, let her know you're still worthy. You still you're
6:58 still here. You know, your kid, you can still really build that relationship,
7:01 you know, and and really kind of put a perspective of look what God did for me and he could do the same for you, you know, to really bring it back to faith.
7:09 So, when I hear what you've done, it is it's not easy work. This is not easy work. And I can imagine that you you've seen kind of both ends. those those happy parents that uh you know have
7:18 taken in kids and and it's just full of joy. But you've also seen those parents that are broken that they can't continue to raise their kids, you know. So what a
7:27 hard space to be in. But kudos to you for saying, you know what, I want to give back to this space as well. I love when I actually get to meet people that say they're adopted or they they've adopted someone because I feel like wow,
7:37 how cool is that? And I don't know that we give that stigma that it is cool, you know? And you know, the way I described it,
7:44 um, actually just in a conversation with my 19-year-old just over the weekend was,
7:49 um, what makes us even more special is that we chose each other.
7:55 We had a choice to adopt them. And they were old enough that they had a choice.
7:59 They could stay with us or they could go try to live with another family. Like,
8:02 we we opened that door. And so the four of us chose each other. And how many family units get to say that you're a family by choice?
8:10 Yeah. No, for sure. And I had to I had to again as a young kid, I didn't see that. Yeah.
8:17 Um and I actually remember becoming I was 18 years old, left my mom's house. There was just so much animosity there.
8:22 She raised seven kids on her own, by the way. So, shout out to her raising seven kids as a single mom, right? She raised Coron and then adopted three. And she would have done more, but I mean, she
8:31 already have seven, you know. Um, so I I remember going out into the world and the first conversation I had with my mom
8:39 and dad was probably like at 20 something years old and um I was so excited as a child as as a young adult actually and thinking, "Oh my god, I got my mom and dad, biological mom,
8:49 biological dad on the phone for the first time, but their mindset went back to the moment that everything was happening in their life. Like, how could you do this, do that?" And I was so
8:56 broken. And I'm like, man, the first time I get to have my mom and dad on the phone and all they couldn't talk about was the past. At that moment, I realized I was chasing the wrong thing. My mom
9:05 was the one that raised me. And I I I give her all the praise and all the glory because without her, where would I be, right? And I see my brothers, I see
9:13 other brothers and sisters, not all of them because I don't have relationships with them, but the ones that I do, and and they will tell me what their life was like growing up. And I'm like, I'm just so thankful that my mom made these
9:21 sacrifices to move away from where we were located, to find us a better place.
9:26 And even though sometimes we don't see the better in it at the moment, now that I get to be an adult, you see the better. And and it's it's just cool. I I hope that these kids that um are
9:34 listening to this, cuz it's going to be those that listen to it, is understand that it's happening to you is not who you are. And that's one of the things I've had to realize. Life was happening to me. The adoption, the sexual abuse,
9:43 feeling unloved, that was happening to me. It's not who I was. and now to be here across the table from you, someone that is in this space as an adoptee. I I
9:52 hope that you also see the work that you do doesn't go, you know, um unnoticed because there's people out here like myself that have gone through those
10:00 systems and and failed me as well. But I didn't let that be the end all beall,
10:06 right? That's just not who I was. Um so I love it. I wear this shirt all the time. I should have worn it today that said adopted across the shirt because that's how passionate I am about being
10:14 um an advocate and letting understand people understand that it's okay you're adopted. You know, it's it's actually as you mentioned to me it was a second chance and I was so happy that I was put
10:23 into this this position that I'm in and that always is going to be good. I can only imagine you've heard some stories as well. Um but you know I I commend you
10:32 for the work that you do and and now you're serving over orchid serves over which is organizations you're a part of.
10:37 would talk about um what your title and what you guys do, but you guys serve over 10,000 kids and and families with over 350 staff.
10:46 What is your northstar when leading something that big um and that personal?
10:50 Uh it the north star is always putting children and families first. Um so, ever
10:56 since I dipped my toe into being a leader, um when I would guide my teams,
11:03 I say, you know, it's okay to make mistakes. It's okay to fail forward.
11:06 We're humans trying to help other humans. It's messy. It's complicated.
11:10 Um, but as long as you can come to me and you can say that you put the best interest of a child or family first with whatever information you had at the
11:18 time, we can deal with anything that comes after. Um, so it's that constant just empathy of recognizing going back to to that mom, where were you for me?
11:30 and showing up for people with a sense of empathy and recognizing that even people who do things that feel really
11:40 horrible are deserving of dignity and respect because how we treat people is a reflection of who we are not a reflection of who they are.
11:50 Correct. Orchid, tell us a little bit about what what you guys do, what what is the the whole mission behind it, some of the programs, some of the services you guys offer. Yeah. So, Orchards
11:59 Children's Services is a child welfare agency. Um, and I like to say that we provide the entire continuum of care for kids, uh, and families in our community.
12:10 And so, um, certainly when someone suspects abuse or neglect, they call Child Protective Services. Child Protective Services goes and they investigate. Um, and sometimes, uh,
12:20 they'll say, you know, this kid's not so unsafe in their home that they need to be removed, but clearly this family needs help. Um, and so Orchards, we have
12:29 a very large and robust, we're the largest, um, provider of family prevention services in the state. Um, and that's something that we're really,
12:36 really proud of because that's that early intervention. It prevents kids from being removed. We know that they do better if we can keep them safely in
12:44 their family of origin. Um, and our team goes into the home and they spend hours and hours a week sometimes in a home working with whatever that family needs.
12:53 Um, sometimes it's help, you know, connecting to, um, a better paying job.
12:59 Sometimes it's help connecting to a food bank. Sometimes it's just, you know,
13:03 family relations, how to maybe parent your kid a little different because going back to that story, they were never parented in in a way that was
13:10 supportive of that parent and child interaction, right? Um, so certainly that's where the the bulk of our services lie, but unfortunately
13:19 sometimes kids cannot be maintained safely in their home and they do need to be removed. And so we recruit, we license um foster parents and we then
13:28 place children in those foster homes and follow them through either their reunification journey um or their adoption journey. And then just recently
13:37 um a few years ago we really recognized the need for uh mental health care access uh particularly for the people that we serve who've experienced so much
13:46 trauma and we are we're specialist in in providing services for trauma. And so we started a behavioral health unit and we offer everything from, you know, really
13:55 indepth um testing and assessment to help people understand how this child's brain and emotions have responded to
14:04 whatever they've experienced and maybe how to work with them in a in a different way that might help elevate them and and help them heal a little
14:10 quicker. um to you know different therapy modalities that we know help people overcome trauma and the symptoms
14:18 that are related with having experienced a lot of trauma in their life. Um so all of that culminates into about 350 staff and over 10,000 kids and families across
14:26 the state of Michigan and uh the the privilege of a lifetime to be able to sit in my seat and lead this organization.
14:33 So huge. Where are you guys located? Uh so we have our flagship office in Southfield, Michigan and then we have offices in um Flint and Jennese County,
14:43 Sterling Heights and Mcome County. Uh we have an office in Ann Arbor in County um and contracts with the state that put us into every county throughout the entire
14:52 state of Michigan. So we we have a fingerprint everywhere.
14:56 Hey, real quick. If you enjoying the podcast, we first want to say thank you and we also just want to give you a little insight of what we're up to at Francis. Some don't even realize that
15:05 we're working with organizations to help them use AI to create that real human communication experiences where that's actually supporting your your families,
15:14 those patients or the entire community.
15:16 We're actually creating tech that connects. Check it out. Francis.ai. I love that. What is your current role?
15:24 I'm the president and CEO.
15:26 And And how did that happen? Like I It's not overnight. There's a story there.
15:30 How did you one get into the organization where now you're working with adopes, but what what was that trajectory looking like? Did you start ground zero? Were you working somewhere
15:39 else? How did you get here as a president, CEO?
15:42 Yeah. So, um my very first kind of foray into uh therapy because I started out as a therapist. I'll say I'm a therapist at
15:49 heart. I will die a therapist. Uh all of the administrative stuff was just kind of I I seem to have a knack for it. Um but I I started really working in a a
15:59 blended funding program serving kids in the child welfare system. Um and that just left such an impression on me. Um
16:07 and unfortunately due to different funding streams and other things that happened. I watched that program get unfunded despite uh just enormous
16:16 success. And I I just remember feeling how unfair that felt to me at the time and thought, I want to be in a position
16:25 to support clinicians like me so that they can go out and they can do what they love and they don't have to worry about, you know, all of these these
16:32 funding nuances that could take something from them that that they hold so dear. Um, and so at that point in time, I I had a master's degree. I was
16:40 licensed in the state, and I decided that if I was going to learn the business side, I needed to learn the business side. So I went to school. I
16:47 got my PhD in business administration um and then started applying for administrative jobs and spent some time
16:53 in the public mental health system uh here in the state and then um dipped my toe into um federal government
17:02 contracting for a while um serving veterans and running a a behavioral health service line for veterans all across the country which was just an
17:11 amazing amazing experience that helped me really grow my business acumen even further. Um, and then we had a very longtime CEO here at Orchards who was
17:20 retiring and the board engaged a recruiter who happened to know me and she knew a little bit about my personal story and my background and she called
17:28 and said hey you know I think you might uh you might really be interested and I thought well never hurts to interview right you think that
17:37 um and man I met the people here and just fell in love and thought it went from doesn't hurt to interview to I am going to be just devastated. if I screw
17:45 up this opportunity. So, thankfully I didn't. Thankfully, I uh I made it through the rigorous interview process and and landed here two years ago. Um
17:54 and I'm just Wow. It is full circle, right? You adopted kids before you even knew that you're going to be running an organization where you're working with adoptes. Yes.
18:02 Uh and their families. How, you know,
18:04 how cool. Um and it's you kind of talked about that mental behavioral, you know, and really what it really does when people go
18:12 through that. And I think it's so cool that we can really openly talk about mental health nowadays because it is one of those things that I didn't know that I was really going through. You know, I
18:21 didn't I I knew that I would go zero to 100. I knew you talked about a little bit about misbehaving in school and it wasn't because I was just didn't want to be there but life was happening to me
18:30 you know and and some teachers will understand that there was something there and they would definitely try to work with you but not everyone understood that you know and so I love that you guys are in that education
18:38 piece not just for the child themselves but for the parents I can imagine for those that may also seek help on how do we help these individuals that are in the space um how important is that how
18:48 important is is that journey to make sure that as they're going through these these process is these systems that
18:54 mental health and and seeing someone um is crucial. It it is absolutely critical. Um so we have
19:02 we have the medical evidence and the PET scans that show how our brains adapt to
19:10 the environment that we're in. And so we know that even babies who are exposed to trauma, so imagine a baby in their crib
19:19 overhearing domestic violence in their home,
19:22 that changes the way that babies's brain forms and adapts because our brains are amazing. We adapt to survive whatever
19:30 environment we're in, right? Um, and so when kids come into care or when they've experienced trauma or you're in a home and the parents have experienced trauma,
19:39 because this is the important piece,
19:40 right, too, is that it's important to recognize that we can take the trauma away from the brain, but we can't take
19:48 the brain away from the trauma immediately. Um, so you're going from zero to 100 because something in your
19:55 environment that you're not even clocking on a conscious level has taken you there because it's reminding you of something and your
20:02 brain is saying we need to do this and we need to do this now to survive. Um,
20:07 so to help caregivers, whether that's a foster parent, whether it's a relative, whether it's biological parents,
20:14 understand that this child is responding in a way that is just meant to survive.
20:20 it depersonalizes it, right? This kid isn't disrespecting me.
20:24 Um, this isn't about me at all. This is about them just trying to survive. And then the backside to that story, and in
20:31 my mind, the most important part of that story is this idea of neuroplasticity.
20:36 Um, so you've heard the saying, you can't teach an old dog new tricks. Well,
20:39 that's a big fat lie. I'm here to mythbust.
20:42 Doesn't matter how old we get, we can learn new tricks. Um, and so that's that's where the work that we do comes in, right? teaching people how to
20:50 interact differently, helping families um build that relationship and that resilience in a different way actually
20:57 retrains the neural pathways in our brains to be able to respond to the world around us in a really healthy way.
21:04 Um that that allows us to not just survive anymore, it allows us to thrive. And so talking about mental health,
21:12 normalizing this, um, depersonalizing it, right? It is not a moral failing that someone's brain developed to thrive
21:19 in a traumatic environment. Um, let's say that louder for the people in the back, right? That is not a moral failing. That is a survival mechanism
21:27 that we need to relearn how to survive in a different environment. Um, so I would say that's one of the most important things that we can possibly do is to talk about it, uh, demystify it,
21:37 destigmatize it, and make sure that people get whatever help they need at the time that they need it.
21:43 Believe it or not, I didn't get the help till I was 30 years old. And, um, unfortunately, I can believe that. And and it really was my wife, you know,
21:51 it it it was my wife that said, I remember one day really after I became a parent, I think it really hit me even harder. Um, I knew that I was having
21:58 anger issues early in my relationship with my now wife. And she would always say to me, even if we don't work out, I just want you I want to help you heal.
22:07 She knew that when I got mad, she would tell me. And I would always remember her saying, "When you get mad, I don't even know who you are. Does it even look like
22:15 you anymore?" And knowing who I was working to be and who I really was, it bothered me. you know that I was getting
22:23 to that point where she felt scared when in reality I'm like but that's not me you know I'm not that person realizing that there was so much trauma right
22:31 there were so many rooted uh issues deep issues that I was just kind of I swept under the rug I mean I didn't tell anyone I was sexually abused I was 21 22
22:39 years old and when I did I started to cry because I felt like one maybe the weight off my shoulders I never told that story right but also felt and the
22:48 reason I didn't tell it was I felt that I was going to be judged I felt like,
22:52 you know, I no one was going to believe me. Um, and you know, I remember at 30 years old when I first seen a therapist where just broke down crying. I didn't
23:01 know why. My wife was she just had the baby, so she was going through a postpartum, so that's why she was going. She said, "Hey, I have a session today,
23:09 but I think it's I think it's really important that you go." And I did, not knowing what to expect. I just went there and just like a faucet. She just
23:16 said everything, you know, and what I what I loved about that and for those that are asking themselves, should I go,
23:23 you know, see a therapist? I say yes. I say that it's it's not that you're going to find the the that first one is going to be great. Sometimes I I like to say
23:31 it's like a relationship. You have to find the one you connect with. But, uh,
23:35 even though I went to her one time, I still talk heavily about this lady because all she did was ask me questions that had all the answers to. But
23:43 sometimes people don't ask questions in that way to make you think a little differently. It's all within the mind,
23:49 right? It's it's a mindset. It's allowing to realize to yourself that wait a minute, this is what happened to me. It's not who I am, you know? Um why
23:58 am I thinking that I owe somebody something when in reality I don't owe anybody anything? You know that this is just the the story that I've had to
24:05 overcome. Um so there was so much that I have to I had to really and to this day,
24:09 I'm not saying I'm perfect. there to this day there's still those things but I realize that I don't go zero to 100 so quickly anymore because I you know of
24:18 everything that I had to kind of work through. Um so I'm happy that you're talking about this because so many people won't have these conversations and they don't understand it and they
24:26 don't seek the help and then they wonder why they go from zero to 100. I remember being a 19-year-old kid going back and forth for my district manager just because I would get so mad, right?
24:38 sometimes just black out in a sense. Um,
24:40 and then the things that we do to kind of cope with that, right? I just had a friend talked about his cop his coping.
24:47 I think even my mom was drugs and a reality does no good for you. It really keeps you in in in that same place over and over. So, I I like that
24:56 we're having um this conversation. Did Did you do you have a story that maybe people can hear on how a a family was
25:03 changed because of the help of of therapy?
25:07 Yeah. Uh we've we have tons of them. Uh let me pick one out here. Um so we have a a family that that we've
25:16 served here not too long ago that I was fortunate enough to to hear their story.
25:22 Um and you know the situation was such when when we entered in that there was some pretty significant domestic
25:29 violence, there was significant substance abuse. Um and that the children did have to be removed. And so we always start with a reunification
25:38 plan because we know outcomes are better for kids if they can be safely maintained, right, with their family and their community of origin.
25:46 Um, and so, you know, I think you've probably heard of like Maslo's hierarchy of need.
25:52 Um, and the reason I think something that is so rooted in psychology and behavioral health is kind of such a household name is because it's so true,
26:01 right? Um, so to your point, you can't think about gentle parenting, which is hard, right? You've got a toddler that's
26:10 having a tantrum because you won't let them put their finger in a light socket after you've just come home from your third job, and you don't know if you're going to spend your money on heat, food,
26:22 or medicine that month, right? Because even two of the three aren't an option.
26:28 You're doing everything everybody says to do. you know, if you work hard, the money will come, the success will come,
26:32 but you're working as hard as you can and it's still not coming. Um, and so,
26:36 you know, people turn to unfortunately bad coping skills, right? They turn to substance use and then they become someone they don't recognize and then,
26:44 you know, the between the pressure and the substance use, domestic violence comes in into play. Um, so these children were removed and we did start a
26:53 reunification plan. But again, we enter into services with that people first and that curiosity. And so to, you know, to
27:02 your point, not what did you do that got your kids removed, what's happened in your life that has brought you to this point. What happened to you?
27:11 Um, and fortunately, you know, these were these were parents who were like kind of like what you said, like this isn't who I am. I I recognize that I'm
27:20 here and I'm at this lowest point in my life, but this isn't who I am and it's not who I want to be. Um, and so it again started with let's, you know,
27:28 enter into and link them with substance use abuse treatment, got them into the treatment, worked on all of that neuroplasticity with their own trauma.
27:36 We saw them in our behavioral health unit. We offer an evidence-based practice called um eye movement desensitization and reprocessing or
27:44 EMDR. Um, and so they were able to process and address their own trauma and then successfully reunite with their kids. Um, and we just did our post
27:54 reunification 12-month checkup. And so now you have a family of five kids living um in in a family unit. And you
28:03 know, through that, mom and dad did recognize that they probably weren't the best match together that they were both great people um on their own, but when they were in the same room together,
28:13 there was just too much history for them to to feel like they could make it work.
28:16 So, they did separate, but they're co-parenting. Um and their kids get both their parents and they get healthy parents. Um so, you know, those are
28:24 those are the stories and those are the wins where you're like, "This is this is why I get up every day and do what I do."
28:29 Yeah. I I love that co-parenting on they realize they weren't a fit together, but they were able to do it as individuals and still come together. Um maybe not in
28:38 that same household. And I always feel like sometimes parents really do kids no uh no good when they just think we got
28:46 to do this for the sake of the child because kids can see that. You mentioned about the energy in the room, seeing it,
28:52 hearing it. They they're kids are so smart. I have a one and a four-year-old and I'm very I'm always in shock of the things that they know and they repeat
28:59 and they say because they truly do watch us all the time. Um maybe they don't listen but they're seeing and sometimes they are also listening right when
29:08 they're not in those rooms and maybe they're hearing it through the walls. Um I love that they were able to just say hey maybe we can't do this together but we can definitely do this uh you know
29:17 separately in our own homes and those kids got to see that um and see healthy parents because it doesn't always work out that way. I love this. I love that
29:25 this is what you do for a living. Like how cool to me it's cool that you do this. Yeah.
29:31 Um what would you say though to someone who judges biological parents um in the system without actually understanding what got them there?
29:38 Well, you know, I let let they who are without sin cast the first stone, right?
29:44 Um it it be careful. So,
29:49 I'll liken that back to like my own some of my own experiences. We've all messed up in life, right? We've all just screwed up and screwed up big time. And
29:57 we've all had that one person who wants to remind us of just how bad we've screwed up and maybe even months or
30:05 years later still throw that screw up back in our face, right? How do how do you feel? Right? You feel dejected. You
30:13 feel hopeless. You feel like, I already know I screwed up. What's the point?
30:17 Does it make you want to try? Does it make you want to be better? or have you had the experience? And I remember when I was um in my early teens and went
30:25 through a a fairly rebellious phase um and was struggling with, you know, I guess this is just who I am. Maybe I'm
30:33 just going to screw up. Maybe I'm just not, you know, as smart or as talented as as I wanted to be. And I just had a teacher just look at me one day and she
30:41 said, "You know what? You are not the first student to do this. You will not be the last. So get over it. Like get over yourself. pick yourself up to where
30:50 you want to be and you know you're capable of being and carry on with your life. Um and boom, you're president a whole organization.
30:58 Yeah. I I mean and so it's just it's the golden rule, right?
31:03 Be who you wish you had when you messed up.
31:08 Yes. That's you know that's why I went back to the high school to be for someone on what I wish I had. Yeah,
31:15 I started to mentor because I didn't have a male figure in my life. But how important is it to have a male,
31:22 especially of color, show up to mentor other males of color and males in general? We don't see that too much in our school systems, males, teachers, uh,
31:33 male therapists. So, it is really important to be for someone else on what I wish I had because that's what it looks like to actually make impacts in
31:40 our community. So, I love that you said that because that's the when people say,
31:44 "Why do I do what I do?" It's exactly that. That's my answer because I want others to never feel what I felt and have someone in their lives I wish I
31:51 what I wish I had and I didn't, you know, and and I didn't know how to be a father, right? I didn't know how to be a a husband. I I didn't see those things.
31:59 I had to learn still learning. I'm not saying that I'm perfect. I've had to learn these things. So, I love that you that definitely uh you know, mentioned
32:06 that because it is, you know, key. It's key to what developing the mind looks like, right? So kudo, I'm having a good
32:14 conversation about this and I hope that people are really listening. Can we talk about to those adoptes? So one of the things I've learned, I didn't get you talk about the system. So I was adopted
32:22 in Boston and then moved to Florida. So as I graduated high school, they couldn't help me in Florida because I
32:30 was adopted in Boston. They couldn't help me in Boston because I lived in Florida.
32:35 Is there some things that you can kind of I I know the system, right? This is where we talk about Nicole.
32:40 Whatever like here I am. Here I am. But there's so many great things and great assets that when someone's in these homes um whether it's a a foster home or
32:50 whether it's a group home and they age out, there are so many benefits as well for them to continue to just seek um
32:57 assistance. Can you talk about some of those systems that maybe individuals don't know?
33:02 Yes. So we have um you know youth, we call them youth and transition funds here. Um, and so it could be everything
33:09 from if you're currently in the foster care system as a foster youth, um, and for whatever reason you're you're not going to be adopted, right? Um, you've
33:18 got semi-independent living programs that teach you what we lovingly refer to as like adultting 101. Um, how to, you
33:25 know, balance your checkbook, how to pay bills, how to, you know, clean your home, how to show up for a job
33:32 interview. Um, all of those types of things. Um, and then we have voluntary foster care programs where you can voluntarily stay as a young adult. Um,
33:42 it does um allow you access to some fundings where we can help, you know,
33:47 them buy their first car or maybe cover some car insurance um get them in their own apartment and just kind of provide
33:53 that that ongoing support. Um, but you know, I would have to give a a plug for orchards here, and this was definitely
34:00 predates me, but we did have a a very generous donation um that allowed us to create a fund where we maintain that natural support for all of our alumni.
34:11 So, if we've served you, you're an alumni of of Orchards Children's Services. Um, and so, you know,
34:17 sometimes I'll get phone calls from folks that are they're your age now.
34:20 They're in their 30s. Um, and we served them back when they were 10, 11, 12 years old and maybe they door dash. Um,
34:29 and they're making it, but they're kind of making it paycheck to paycheck and blow a tire. Hey, you know, they don't have that family support to to fix that tire or parents or grandparents that
34:38 they can call and they can call on us and we'll cover that tire and we're going to make sure that they kind of keep on moving forward. So, um, never
34:46 underestimate the commitment and dedication of the nonprofits in your area. Um, we're out there and we care
34:54 and we'll do anything and everything we can to make sure people are successful.
34:58 So, good. Yeah, I just want to get out there because I think there's so many things that are are of value that people just don't know. Um, and we're all about, right, educating, educating those
35:06 that may not know. Sometimes that assistance is in our own backyard at reach and we just don't know about it.
35:11 So, I love and this is not just your organization. These are organizations across, you know, the United States,
35:16 across the country that do provide these things. It's find those in your city.
35:20 Find those that where you were I'm guessing in my case where you were adopted maybe if you still live there. I don't know if this is still the same.
35:27 Okay. This is the years ago. Yeah. Um but I I wanted to go to school and I couldn't. I I end up going to school paying out my own pocket. But um I knew
35:35 that it was a thing and I actually seen people so that I had a friend. I was almost I would say fathering this this young man, but he
35:43 was 18 years old. He had just got out of the foster system. And um now there I think there was like a stipen that they give him as long as he continues school
35:51 and all these different things. So what was happening is at the foster home he was in they were actually charging him $500 to for the room but he was sharing
35:58 it with four other kids. And it bothered me that he had to pay $500.
36:03 Still was in school to share room with four other kids. And I'm 19 years old at this point. So I'm only maybe a year or two years younger than this man was. And
36:11 I said hey you can live with me but you still have to pay rent. I was charging him $300. I'm going help you get a job.
36:17 I'll help you get a car and you still got to continue school. He was his last year of school or junior year. And he did. He moved in with me and I would say
36:24 he was such an amazing individual. I helped him get a car. He was one of my best employees just living life. Um and all the help that he was getting for the
36:33 government. Unfortunately, I lost him due to um to drugs, right? They they found him in Vegas and things like that.
36:41 But it it was I seen how there was some help, but I also seen how there was so still so much more need because I didn't
36:49 realize he was going through a lot of things mentally, right? Like because he was in his happy place. So when I did see him not so much in that
36:57 same place, all he could remember was those times he was with me. And it just hurt me because it's like,
37:02 man, he's stuck in the in the happy moments of his life and he didn't know how to move forward. And you know, we we
37:10 tried and and at some point I had to kind of realize that he's an adult just like I was an adult, you know, and I had
37:18 to have those difficult conversations and and unfortunately we lost him. But I still keep him, you know, I understood what he was going through and and there's so many kids that go through
37:26 that and feel alone and the way that he was his mom and father or his mother left to another country, never came back
37:34 for them. like what is that kid really going through if they never see therapy when he was separated from his his sister and couldn't really see his
37:42 sister the only person that he knew didn't have family didn't come looking for him so there were just so many things that were playing I'm a young kid I didn't know all these things but I I I
37:50 wish I knew some of the things now Nicole that um I I would have known back then right to to kind of help that but we're learning we're learning and we're educating others that are in this space
37:59 that if you need the help there are organizations out there even if you were not through this you know foster system,
38:05 there's still place that you can go and and and look out. So, that's just kind of why I wanted to have this conversation because you have so much
38:12 insight, but also just educate people that are in this space, whether you're the parent or you're the child, that is is not going to happen overnight. It is
38:21 truly a work in progress. Um, and I ask you, there has to be a personal checkpoint for you when you need to reset. This is a lot of work. Realign,
38:30 uh, maybe keep leading with heart. What is your personal checkpoint?
38:35 Oh, I mean, so for me it's and and to your point, I've like I've been there. I've been to that
38:43 point of just burnout in a in a really unhealthy place. Um so I'm fortunate enough that I have um just one of the
38:52 best partners ever in my husband. Um we've been married old husband. Yeah, baby.
38:58 Male teacher. Uh, so he definitely shows up shows up in in an elementary school and uh, love it.
39:04 You know, he he's one of my checkpoints and really my litmus test and he's the one that I'll just say, you know, you're you're teetering on the edge. You need you need to step back for a minute. Um,
39:15 and so I can rely on him a lot. And then, you know, I've just found different things, um, you know, from
39:24 working out and, you know, learning some boxing and fighting and getting kind of that physical physical piece out. Um,
39:30 to, and this sounds so corny, I'm going to tell on myself, but adult paint by numbers.
39:35 Um, I do it. Uh, they're lovely. You can get them pretty cheap, uh, online. and I just like turn on a book on tape and for
39:44 an hour or two can just sit and it just kind of resets and and shuts everything off and lets my mind kind of drift and
39:51 focus. So, um it's all those things, you know, that people tell you we should do.
39:55 Um it's finding what elements of those work for us. Um and then kind of knowing like I'll know if I'm sleeping really
40:02 bad. I love sleep. Um, and if I'm not sleeping like for two, three nights in a row, that's also just another tell of,
40:10 "All right, lady, you need to take a day off. You need to take some time for yourself and regroup."
40:15 Mine's just planting. You talk about paint by numbers. I just love planting.
40:18 So, don't worry. We all have that thing that people probably don't know about us. And it's like, no way. My mind's I just love to plant. I I actually have so much I have to repot and I'm like, I I
40:27 know when I do it, it's going to be so peaceful. Um, so I just got to do it when my kids are napping or something because if not, my daughter's like, "I want to help." And then she just starts
40:35 dragging dirt all over the place and it doesn't become as peaceful. But no, I um I love that that you find something that really kind of gets you out there. But how about for for your for your team?
40:44 You said you lead 350 people who are all carrying heavy emotional work. How do you keep them grounded um hopeful and and focused when when life is happening
40:52 and sometimes they're carrying these stories like if it's their own?
40:55 Yeah. So, it's uh I try to maintain as regular communication as as possible to remind them I'm still human, too, and that I'm here and I'm cheering for them.
41:05 Um because we're spread out all over the state. Um and so I do this I call it um another leader that that I knew um and
41:14 just admire her so much. Um I stole it from her, so I'll give her a shout out and kudos to her, but I call it five minutes on Friday. Um and every other Friday I send out an all staff email.
41:24 Um, and it might be just keeping them in the know about different advocacy or different things that are going on in the agency. It could be sharing, um, a
41:31 good story. Um, I've, you know, sent out things encouraging them to take their PTO and reminding them to to care for
41:39 themselves. Um, that we don't glorify burnout here. And I'm not going to glorify burnout. I refuse to do that.
41:46 Um, so, uh, we've maintained a hybrid work schedule. I do not require any minimum amount of days in office. that's
41:53 up to people's direct teams and supervisors and what you need to do for your job. Um, encouraging that work life balance and then celebrating
42:02 the win. Um, and some days the win is you went to court and you advocated and you took on somebody that seems to have
42:10 much more power in the system than you did on behalf of a kid or a family. And some days it's that you remember to take your seatelt off before you got out of
42:18 the car. Uh, and both are equally important and both are equal wins. just depending on the day that you're having.
42:25 Um, so I really think normalizing to your earlier point right around mental health, normalizing this is hard work.
42:30 Um, and you are still just a human trying to help other humans. And so to give yourself that same grace that you would give anybody else.
42:39 I love that. And and if someone's listening and wants to help but doesn't know where to start, what's one small move they can actually make today?
42:46 Uh, you could find, do your online research, find nonprofits, find charities in my agency or my organization. Um, and you could put a
42:54 card or postcard in the mail to all staff and just say, "Thank you. I see you." As simple as that. Yep.
43:01 Yeah. It makes a difference. It truly does. I think people always think it has to be a donation of so much dollars and it's not. It's It's that. It's a thank
43:09 yous. Y right. Uh they go a long way because it it reminds us of why we do it. Sometimes we just do it because it's in us, you know, we've been doing it for so long.
43:18 But when we hear those things, I can imagine you talk about that 10-year-old that called that when he was 30, like could imagine you just lit up like see this is why we do what we do. You know,
43:27 that we can help in a time of need because you could have been probably in a higher paying job if you wanted to,
43:33 but it wasn't about the paycheck. I always say that it's not about the paycheck. It's about the purpose and the passion that you have to do what you do.
43:39 Especially that now you've been in the world of adopting, right? it it it hits you even more that you're in this space.
43:46 Um, so I love it. I love that you're at this head of the table, but you've also experienced what that looks like as a mom that had to adopt two young girls um
43:55 and raise them as your own and they are yours, you know, and and and I I can only imagine your your daughters right now are just thriving and just so happy
44:03 and and will continue to give back because their mom is giving back to this day. She's still giving back every single day and I'm pretty sure that you'll give back the rest of your life.
44:11 So pretty pretty cool. What's your vision for a child welfare system that finally acts like a real safety net? So, you gave me the perfect opening. Uh,
44:20 and it's lived experience. I think the parents who have been through the system and are on the other side should be able to inform how we show up for people. Uh,
44:30 tell us what they wished we would have done differently or instead. And I think the kids that have been most impacted by this system should hold the key
44:39 leadership and governance positions that tell us how the system should be. Um I think we we are starting to recognize
44:47 the value of that lived experience. Um we're starting to pay a little bit more lip service to it in terms of like peer supports and things in different places.
44:56 Um but I think we need to take the leap and I think we need to put the people impacted by the system in charge of the system.
45:03 I agree. The thing that I feel though,
45:06 and correct me if I'm wrong here, when people like age and become my age or something, they just don't really talk about it. Are you seeing that often?
45:15 Like people don't come back to advocate for where they once used to be? Uh, actually, I'm seeing the opposite. Um, okay. Good, good, good.
45:22 So, I'm I'm really proud. Um, our board chair, so the man heading the entire governance of Orchards Children's
45:30 Services, uh, received our services as a young man. um and he's talked about that openly and we just uh the board our
45:39 board of directors just voted in a brand new board member uh who was adopted by our agency when he was two years old and he wanted to come back into the system
45:47 and found us. Um so I I think it's amazing. Now I will preface this with saying that you know if someone's an adoptee if they were in
45:55 the foster care system you don't owe your story to any of us. You don't owe any of us anything. Um but if you feel
46:02 compelled to share that, if you feel compelled to change the system um in in some way, shape or form, oh, I encourage you to do it.
46:11 Yeah. And compelled to just change lives. Yes.
46:14 Right. Um it doesn't even have to be at the place of going back to the system.
46:19 Just share that story. It resonates so much when you can. Um so that's why I go to the school is to resonate to to share that story and hope that it resonates
46:26 with someone, right? Like the things I've had to overcome when I was in school. wasn't something I was talking about. But now that I'm out of school,
46:33 I'm like, man, we were all going through something. We all have a story. You know, it whether you were adopted,
46:38 whether it was domestic violence happening in your home, there was, you know, addictions happening. There was so many things that kids were just showing up to school with. And and and you never
46:47 know cuz there was always a smile on their face. They were just sweeping under the rug. Sometimes school was just kind of their space of being free. I
46:54 always talked about going to work. I felt free. uh going to school, I felt free uh you know and so many times we I
47:03 love that you have two males at least that and probably more but that are being the voice to to these males are so
47:13 important in this space. So that kudos to those men as well. Where can we find more of your organization? What's the website? Are you guys on socials?
47:19 Yep, we're on uh Instagram, Facebook, um X, LinkedIn, all the the typical socials. And then our website is orchards.org.
47:28 So Okay. All right. Well, listen, I'm put you in the hot seat. This is the last question, blind question. If you give your life to a system that doesn't always give back, what's one moment that
47:37 nearly broke you and what made you stay anyway? Um,
47:44 so the moment that that nearly broke me uh was I had been working with a a
47:51 subset of people for years. Um,
47:57 and and really and truly believed that that this family should be together. And I watched the system take supports that
48:05 I knew the system was perfectly capable of providing and deny them. and I watched a family lose their kids because they were poor. Um, and that nearly broke me. Um,
48:17 wow.
48:19 But instead of breaking me, I let it make me angry and I channeled that anger into sitting in the seat I sit in today.
48:28 Um, so that if I have an opportunity to leverage funding, leverage programming,
48:33 leverage something to make sure that a family can stay intact after they've worked so hard, I now have the power to do that.
48:42 And we thank you. And what a way to end it, Nicole. We appreciate your time. We appreciate your raw, transparent conversation here today. We appreciate
48:50 you giving back to those that uh are in this in the system. Right. you adopted two little girls of your own, but you're also sitting at the head of the table,
48:57 as you just mentioned, to continue to fight for those that go through this for for continue to to fight a system that at the moment doesn't align um with what's really going on in the world. So,
49:07 I appreciate for what you've done, guys.
49:09 If you guys want to know how you how more you can actually help is share these conversations. These are conversations that parents need to hear,
49:16 that children need to hear, those that are thinking of adoption need to hear.
49:20 And um Nicole, I I wish you nothing but more more success. I can only imagine this just kind of the tip of the iceberg right here, but there's so much more
49:27 that is coming your way just because you continue to just give. Guys, we thank you. Don't forget to subscribe. I'm Era.
49:34 This is Nicole. We'll catch you on the next one. Latest.

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