Your Trauma Isn't Baggage. It Might Be Your Greatest Leadership Asset. | Mollie Rockafellow

[0:16]  Welcome back to another episode here on the Heart and House of Podcast. Miss Molly, you a first-gen. You talked about being a low-income student and how college fell completely out of reach, but the right people created a pathway for you. What did that feel like when someone finally built a door where there wasn't one?

[0:35]  That is such a good question. I think I was really thinking about this from my life journey and really thinking about the pivotal moments that I think we can really kind of call upon. The one that really came to my mind is actually really connected to the fact that I was low-income. The college that I ended up going to was actually the school that got me a job as part of the admissions process. My admissions counselor had gone to the school and knew someone that worked in the dining center. I just had shared that I was so nervous about how I would pay for this. She shared, "Oh, actually, I know some people. I can set you up with a position."

[1:23]  I was like, well, that makes it feel attainable and that I'll have a landing when I get there and somewhere I can make sure I have enough money. Now recognizing, as I look back, a student employment job does not give you enough money to pay for college. But at the time, it made me feel seen, right? She understood sort of really what my big hang-ups were, feeling comfortable and like I could navigate the system. That employment position actually was a game-changer for me.

[1:51]  I always love a story with someone who probably didn't know what the next chapter of their life would look like, but because of somebody else. I always say that one moment, one person can change somebody's life. Life was changed because of that one moment, right? We could always kind of go back to.

[2:00]  Um, I love that. I also love that you said something in our first conversation that really stuck with me because I didn't think about it until you said it, which was that people who have deep stories usually learn substance early because they had to.

[2:11]  Can you kind of unpack that? I think that's one of the most important things that I've heard in a long time. And as I mentioned, I really started to think like maybe that's why I love systems. Systems are my video game.

[2:22]  Yeah, absolutely. I appreciate you bringing that up. It's something that's really sat with me for a while now, too. I moved out of my house when I was 15 and moved in with other family because that's what made sense for me at the time. I even think about my childhood before I moved out and just recognizing that it was my job to pay attention to people, how they were feeling, what they were doing, what was going on.

[3:06]  That was true at school, right? Because school was a safe space, and I wanted to keep that. So then if I was high-achieving, if I met the teacher's goals and needs, then I kind of continued to be likable and in favor. Those were safety measures for me, right? My body didn't feel safe unless I was paying attention and hyper-aware of what was going on around me.

[3:13]  But that taught my body to learn patterns and systems and people. So then, yeah, when I started college, it was interesting. I shared the story about how I ended up in college. I applied to three places, and I even think back now, one of the places lost my application. I thought, well, I don't want to go somewhere that can't keep track of my application. That feels important.

[4:01]  The place I picked was the place where we can get you a job; we're going to help create the pathway for you to find some success right away. Again, a good system. So, yeah, I think there's a lot to be said about our bodies really learning and mapping for safety. And that mapping for safety, especially when it has to happen a lot when we're young, helps us recognize that, okay, well, there are other maps I can create, right?

[4:42]  And if we can slow down and listen to our bodies and pay attention to those signals, that makes a big difference in understanding systems. Because so often, I think we are in systems that don't feel good, and we just power through. We just kind of maybe ignore, you know, as some of the people I worked with or know, they just sort of maybe ignore those signals because they're like, I just need this job or I just need this.

[5:34]  Some of the work I do is encouraging people to slow down and really understand the system. But I think those of us that have lived a different style of life or a different kind of upbringing maybe have had the chance to recognize those signals more.

[5:43]  And you said you're helping people build systems or understand systems now. Is that what you're doing?

[5:45]  Yeah. So, I recently did an interview with someone who worked in a hospital system, and she shared with me that her department is under HR, and their whole job is change management, organizational leadership, helping with training, professional development, and onboarding. But I've actually only ever worked at small institutions where that wasn't on the radar. That's not an option when you have a smaller budget, you have a smaller organization, you aren't doing so much of that that you can justify a whole department.

[6:34]  So, the work that people hire me to do is come in, do interviews, understand their culture, help them map the people and the systems, policies, practices that are impacting them in ways they maybe don't realize. So, I start to ask and understand about patterns that are showing up that they don't like, and often there's feedback there that they're not aware of or they're aware of but they don't know how to track.

[7:00]  As an example, the work that people want to pay me to do is come in and really help them understand what's going on, map it out for them, and give them a roadmap of what could be next to see the growth or the change that they want.

[7:11]  And how does little Molly feel knowing that something she probably didn't understand at the moment, she is now actually teaching others? I can only imagine the little you is smiling ear to ear.

[7:27]  Yeah, I love that you said that. That's so meaningful. There's a quote out there on social media that I've seen on and off: "Be proud that you're an adult that your younger self would have felt safe with and loved from." And I'm like, oh, that's good.

[7:31]  Right? Chills. Gives you the goosebumps.

[7:32]  Yeah. Yeah, that's good.

[7:32]  Yeah.

[7:33]  I ain't going to lie to you. I just mentioned before we hit record that I went to Wrestlemania, and that's exactly what I was a young kid going through life, and wrestling was the escape from reality. I remember as a young kid thinking, man, one day I'm going to be working with wrestling.

[7:49]  Three years ago, I'd like to jokingly say that I came out of the wrestling closet and started telling people that I love wrestling. But this year, I decided to go do media coverage. As I was on that plane going to Vegas, really believing in myself, investing in myself, I sat here and really kind of just teared up because I'm like, man, the little me would be so damn happy that you chased your dream, right?

[8:16]  We go through struggles in our lives, Molly, and you kind of touched a little bit on it. There's not a lot of people that see the other side. For us to be here and have these conversations, like, damn, you know, sometimes it's also so easy to beat ourselves up. I remember one time I beat myself up so bad that the first person I spoke to that morning was somebody from an adoption home, and it took me back to where I started.

[8:43]  I'm like, why am I so upset? Look how far I've come. Some people don't realize that at times because they are in the system. They can't see past the hurt or whatever it is.

[8:56]  So, I love that. Do you have a story that maybe you've helped somebody build that system that really changed their trajectory, whether it's individual or a business?

[9:06]  Yeah, I think what's amazing about working in education is that it's the good and the bad, right? You do a lot of work early on to really plant a lot of seeds, and you hope for the best for people. I am someone who shares my story of being a low-income student. In college, there's a lot of stigma around that. There are a lot of challenges.

[9:29]  I'm also someone who shares my story of coming from a tumultuous home, a single-parent home, a home with a lot of big emotions that weren't navigated. I share that story when it's appropriate with my students to help them see that even though they may have come from challenging situations, other people in this space have gone through that and have gotten to the other side.

[9:51]  Just actually a couple weeks ago, someone emailed me. I hadn't spoken to her in probably 10 years. She was my student, and she was a student who I connected with, but we didn't work super closely together. She was actually at the institution at the time that I had built a strong leadership system.

[10:14]  We had a really good plan, really good onboarding, really good training, and really good continued development for those students. It didn't feel like a lot of work to me because of the system. But she emailed me and said, "The way that you handled and navigated leadership was a game-changer for me. I'd never seen a woman in a leadership position in the way you navigated that. I had never been poured into in the way that you poured into me as a human and as a person."

[10:43]  The way she described feeling seen and heard and valued and developed in that space was just amazing to me. It was a great opportunity because I was part of a larger team that built this system to help those students.

[11:00]  My research is about how if we focus on people's strengths and the assets that they bring to the table, especially first-generation college students, but people in general, every one of us has unique gifts. If we focus on those strengths and not on the deficits or the things that they may have been challenged by, then that can make the difference in if they're able to develop as a leader and then use that leadership skill in their future life.

[11:31]  My research was on first-generation college women who are now in leadership positions and how their college experience shaped them and showed them leadership skills from a strengths-based lens. Did that make a difference for them? The answer is yes, it did, which I knew intuitively because I experienced it.

[11:56]  You know, those times in college where people saw me as a person with gifts and strengths, and there were other times where people underestimated me. Those different experiences were very different and developed me in different ways.

[12:02]  I love it. I want to go back because you just kind of threw it in there that you have a doctorate degree. Kudos to you. Let's go. Hell yeah.

[12:06]  Thanks so much. But the other thing I want to really ask is, when did you find out that you were a leader?

[12:17]  Oh, yeah. That's such a good question. I think when I was young, I was just considered bossy. Other kids didn't love me because I was like, "Listen, we should be doing this." I also am an external processor, and so people I think always perceived me to be this extrovert. I'm like, no, my brain, you know, thoughts just don't happen inside; they just come out of my mouth.

[12:41]  I also actually recently found out I have ADHD, which presents differently for girls. My son, who I also think has ADHD, is not diagnosed yet. His presents as jumping up and down on the ground physically, but I think for me, my brain works so fast that people often don't know how to keep up with me. I've had co-workers say, "You're just talking so fast; I don't understand what you're saying."

[13:06]  I was like, good, thanks for the feedback; I'll slow down. But I do think that actually had an impact. The way my brain works differently, all of those things were never seen as assets, right? They weren't necessarily things that people in general were like, "Oh, this is a strength." They called me bossy. They said, "You're doing too much." They said, "Your big emotions are too messy for me."

[13:30]  It wasn't until I sort of got into college and had some of those key people in my life that just said, "Hey, you're doing some cool things. The things that other people maybe saw as deficits, I see how they can be a strength in this environment." Those were game-changing moments for me.

[13:46]  That's funny. I very similar to you when I was growing up. I ended up having to leave my mom's house and moved in with friends. They would all say, "You act like you're somebody's dad," but it was just that leader in me, right? I just wanted to make sure everybody was okay, do the right things, and not do the wrong thing.

[14:06]  We don't even realize it. That's just in us. As you mentioned, some of the struggles that we've kind of endured growing up, I'm thankful for because I was told that I talk a lot. Thank God I use my voice because here we are having these conversations.

[14:27]  I remember one time this leader told me, "Ephrain, I can't work for you." He was 50, and I was like 19, 20 years old. He said, "But I know what a great team man you're going to do some amazing things." At that moment, I didn't know what he was talking about.

[14:49]  But when you can lead a group of individuals that understand the same mission you understand, you're a force to be reckoned with. I can imagine that you're a force to be reckoned with because you're out here leading individuals to think better and do better.

[15:06]  You're working in higher ed. What are some of the things that you feel you've brought to the table? Because higher ed is one of those that can be a little stagnant at times, but we have some new technology, AI being one of them, that I feel everyone's trying to get into, but there's also some fear around that. What are some of the things that you bring to the higher ed space?

[15:34]  Yeah, I appreciate you asking that. College was one of the first spaces where I felt seen and that people valued my strengths. I've worked at five or six institutions now, transitioning different positions. A lot of that transition and moving up into a new position came from me being like, "Well, if we did it this way, it actually aligns with the students and the system that they're experiencing."

[16:01]  I often describe it to people as students are kind of on a highway. They might get off on an exit to do a rest stop, but they're not going to get off and go down the block and around the corner to find something, right? They want us to bring things to them. That is their experience, especially now.

[16:27]  I think that was true of my generation, but now, so many things are at their fingertips. They are expecting and looking for us to do that for them as well. They have a lot more choice. I love that higher education has opened doors in a lot of ways to access for a lot of students.

[16:49]  I've always worked at access-oriented institutions, meaning that they're thoughtful about the cost to students. I guess I shouldn't say low-cost; they're still expensive as higher ed is. But yes, I come into these hundred-year-old institutions, and I am excited about the fact that they cater to students like me—first-gen, low-income—and then I get there and realize there's some level of our old school styles, right?

[17:17]  I come in and start to ask questions and be curious about the why and what's the challenge. Are we recognizing that if we made this student-centered, if we thought about how this impacted the students, that could be a game-changer for them and for us?

[17:49]  I think so. That is one of the ways that I think I've positively impacted higher ed here at the institution I'm at, bringing on some key technologies. It's so easy to stack technology like app after app or thing after thing, but really thinking about what is going to make the difference for students.

[18:14]  We're grappling with AI. Like you said, higher education is slow to change, and AI is moving us, and we're struggling with that. So, really trying to understand and engage with what tools are out there, what students want, and the ways that we can help them.

[18:35]  It's about systematically figuring out who's struggling, you know, when they're here and kind of already ready to leave. We're trying to find out who's in those high red zones and who's struggling and not feeling a sense of belonging really early on.

[18:51]  Yeah. Kind of meeting them at where they're at, right? Being able to communicate with them at all levels, I would say, when they first get in to when they're going through something, whether now they're in grad school. Do we have anything like that that really communicates to them at all levels?

[19:07]  Yeah, that's a great point. It's something we're spending a lot of time on right now, thinking about how they start deciding if they belong in college when they're being recruited. It does not wait until they show up to decide. They've already started building or decreasing their confidence level.

[19:34]  You know, think back to my story. The college that lost my application, I could have reapplied, and they could have accepted me, but I would have already had kind of a bad taste in my mouth, right? So, students are constantly sitting with, "Am I going to belong here? Is this the school for me? Is this the place where I feel confident?"

[19:56]  So, yes, we have to recognize that it's not about a moment in time. It's about the time that they're thinking about school all the way through those key decision points. I'm working with the team right now about first-year student experience and how we can help them build out a strong experience aligned with what the students already want to do and are concerned about.

[20:27]  How are we preparing them not necessarily for the job right after they graduate college, but for the job that's going to be out there, the career that they're going to have in 10 or 20 years? We know those change over time. So, those critical thinking skills, that larger knowledge, and how do we use technology to do that and help them meet them where they are?

[20:51]  Those are some of the central things that I'm putting on our strategy team table and really asking people to put their brains together about.

[21:02]  Love it. And with so many leaders right now that are in higher ed, nonprofits, and healthcare, they're scared. Funding is kind of being cut, programs are disappearing. For a leader who hasn't built that infrastructure or the systems, where do they even start?

[21:21]  Yeah, that's a great question. I do think it actually starts a lot with culture. Are people willing to come to the table? I just started at the institution I'm at about a year and a half ago, and people quickly said two things that raised my flag. One, silos are a real problem, and it was nice that they were able to identify it, but we have an oral history. All of our processes and procedures are oral, and I'm like, that is a concern, right?

[21:54]  So those are two challenges. I jumped right into the conversation. If they were willing to name that there were silos and challenges with that, then that tells me there was some openness to address and talk about how to do it.

[22:12]  Collaboration is actually about how do people get out of my way so I can do what I want. Some people, when they say collaboration, that's what they really mean. But for me, it's how do we get on the same page about what are the key things we need to do? What are the non-negotiables? Like, this has to happen, and what are the things that we can really understand differently from each other?

[22:44]  The thing that I often do with organizations because they don't have this plan ready, they don't necessarily know how to build it, is I start by asking everybody, talking to culture, interviews, really understanding. That slowdown and taking a beat is probably where people struggle the most because things are moving at a fast pace.

[23:06]  It's hard to find that time. So, I help people find that time. Then I dig into recognizing and mapping that system and those patterns and then developing a system where they're able to talk about what are the non-negotiables. We have to do this. This is so important to us. This can't change.

[23:30]  What are the negotiables? What can people from your team come to the table with expertise on and help them feel seen and valued? Because if we don't build out a student-centered system that values our team members and our employees, then we've lost another key step in this process.

[23:54]  So really taking time to make space for those experts. Similarly to me as a student, I want to be seen for my unique gifts and my strengths. So do our employees. We have to create space for that and recognize that they all have their own kind of things they're bringing to the table.

[24:13]  As you're telling me all this, I'm like, you know, I got a better question here. You got four kids under 10. You're running a university and a consulting LLC. How do you build systems around yourself so that you can actually show up without losing yourself?

[24:30]  Yeah. I mean, it's actually funny. I have a framework I use when I'm working with an organization or an individual or myself. I literally sat down this morning and was like, "Okay, what patterns have worked for me? What patterns do I know are working?"

[24:48]  I meditate and do yoga every morning. I have since 2020. The pandemic broke us all a little bit, right? I was like, I got to figure out a way to pour back into myself, reset myself every day in this stress. I have kept that habit strong.

[25:05]  So, knowing that, okay, what's a habit? That's a pattern I can repeat. What's a different pattern I can repeat? Understanding repeatable patterns, understanding what's not working. I doom scroll at night. It gets to 10 p.m., and I'm like, I should go to bed. I want to get up early and prep for my podcast interview.

[25:30]  But no, I doom scroll, and then I'm regretting it the next morning, feeling that burn. So now, I wrote myself a plan. I like to think about these things as we're playing with them. I'm going to try this. I'm going to set up a reward system. If it works, I'm going to do it again.

[25:50]  I do the same thing with my kids, right? If they're struggling, what's the reward? What's the thing we're going to try? The pattern we think we can be repeating, and then what's the reward for that pattern?

[26:02]  I love it. No, definitely. You got to find those things that work for you. What do you think being a mom taught you about leadership that really no institution probably could?

[26:15]  Yeah, that's a great question. I do think one of the most important things as you're developing as a leader is developing emotional intelligence and understanding who you are and what triggers you because we all have stuff, right? I have a lot of stuff because I came up in a pretty tumultuous household, but everybody has stuff.

[26:43]  Everybody has things that trigger them that get in their way, that bother them. Understanding that is hugely central to developing as a leader because your employees are going to trigger you. Your team is going to do something that really bothers you almost nonsensically, like in a way that doesn't make sense to anyone else because it's triggering something that happened to you before.

[27:06]  It's not necessarily happening in the moment. Unless you understand those things and get ahead of them or create systems around them, then you end up repeating those patterns with these new people, the new employees, the new customers. That can become a real problem. I've seen it in a lot of leaders.

[27:27]  So, I would say the thing that my kids have taught me more than I think most, you know, that you might get at work, is they teach you what triggers you. They're like our little emotion scientists. They're just watching for me to get upset, and then they're like, "Let me repeat that. Let me just push that button whenever I want your attention."

[27:54]  Whenever you're doing whatever you need to do and I need you, I'm going to push this button, and that's it. You have to learn about how to navigate that, and that learning then really helped me as a leader.

[28:12]  That's so good. Kids definitely test your patience.

[28:14]  Oh yeah.

[28:14]  Listen, I always say the thing that I learn most is patience.

[28:16]  But would you say I used to be the person that went zero to 100 and didn't know how to not go from here to here?

[28:23]  Yeah. I've had to learn that very early on. Sometimes it's just walking away, you know. I remember when I first got into my relationship with my now wife, I had to learn that when I was mad, I had to walk away.

[28:41]  She thought it was okay for me to just stay there, and I'm like, "No, I just have to go." I didn't realize there were anger issues either. It was me becoming aware. I remember one time she said, "When you get so upset, I don't even know who you are."

[29:00]  That was that moment I'm like, wait a minute, what do you mean? I wasn't okay with that. I wasn't okay with someone telling me that because no one really called that out. But our kids would call it out; our spouses would call it out.

[29:20]  It is one of those things that we should definitely recognize. You can't get away from the triggers. Triggers could be a smell, a thing, or a moment that just pops in your head.

[29:35]  Sometimes I battle that as well. I'm like, "Oh my god, I just wish I can not think this anymore." But that's just life that we live, and I'm happy that you were able to continue to work with systems and pour that back into your kids because it's not about us.

[29:55]  It's about the next generation of individuals.

[29:57]  Absolutely.

[29:58]  It's been a good conversation. For those nonprofit directors, the higher ed VPs, and those in healthcare listening right now who may be overwhelmed and don't know where to start, what is the one thing you want them to hear today?

[30:15]  Yeah, I think when I really am working with an individual, the thing I say is you got to create some time for yourself. I often say my calendar, my to-do list, and the work I have to do are fighting each other, right?

[30:35]  It's so easy to get caught up in all the meetings and all the things we have to do. Especially as a high achiever, you're like, I want to show everybody that I'm proving my worth and doing the things I said I would do. None of that will be sustainable if you don't take some time.

[30:56]  It creates space for yourself. For me, it's the yoga and meditation every day, but then I have a weekly reflection I do. The thing I'm going to try to add, we'll see if it works, is a daily kind of brain dump because that's one of the things for me when I doom scroll.

[31:17]  It's because I have so many unfinished things from throughout the day. But yeah, we got to create time and space for ourselves to do some of this work. All of this comes up like if you take some space, if you really start to think about things, a lot of this can come up.

[31:38]  If you're more of an avoidant person, if you know that you're not someone who's going to do that for yourself, get a coach, get a support person, like get a friend who's going through some of the same stuff. I've had all three at different points depending on the scenario, and all three are helpful.

[32:01]  But yeah, having that person kind of encourage you to think through some of the challenges. So, I would suggest that the first step is starting to really see what's going on for you, see the patterns that are causing you challenges, and then asking for help from a professional or a support person to navigate some of those things.

[32:26]  Accountability partners always work out.

[32:28]  That's why friends do not like to tell me anything because I am that guy. If you tell me something, I will make sure that I'm going to call you and hold you accountable.

[32:35]  Absolutely.

[32:36]  I have friends that would not pick up their phones because they know I'm calling. "Sir, are you doing work or what are you doing? Ma'am, are you doing?"

[32:41]  No, I definitely appreciate it. I appreciate the conversation. Where can people find more information about the work that you're doing?

[32:51]  Yeah, LinkedIn. Molly Rockefell. My email or my website is rock-read.com. My company is called Rockr LLC, which is my maiden name and my married name kind of mixed together. It's a family affair for us trying to try new things and be creative with our time and energy.

[33:14]  So, yeah, that's probably the easiest way to check out what I'm doing. I'm putting a lot out there through social media and LinkedIn.

[33:21]  Well, Molly, I appreciate you. For those that are still watching, make sure that you guys do like, subscribe, and comment. These are the conversations we continue to have with other leaders in the spaces so that you can feel a little bit more comfortable in the work that you do every single day. It is definitely passion work. It is purpose work. It is not about a paycheck, as I always say.

[33:50]  I thank you for giving your time and your insight today, Miss Molly. Continue to do some amazing work. I'm Era. This is Molly. We'll catch you guys in the next one. Latest.