Faith Over Fortune: How Dr. Julie Hayden Built a Purpose-Driven Empire from Scratch

[0:00]  going back in time when it was very difficult to keep hope. We had a phrase called breadcrumbs. And so we'd be on this path where you couldn't see far ahead of you and you're like, "Oh my goodness, are we on the right path? This is so hard. How is this so hard? Barriers coming, probably spiritual warfare, you know, all this stuff." And so we look for breadcrumbs. And that's a phrase we use for those amazing blessings that would happen. Sometimes they were little, sometimes they were big, but they would happen and we go, "Oh yes, we are on the right track."

[0:28]  That is only from God. Sometimes others might not notice it, but we knew that is from God. We're on the right track. Keep going. Welcome back to another episode of the Heart and Hustle Podcast. Here, most people talk about changing lives, but what does it really take to break generational cycles of poverty, addiction, and homelessness? Today's guest isn't just talking about it. She's being she's been living this. She's been leading this and transforming it for decades. Julie Hayden is the CEO of East County Transitional Living Center, a place where hope doesn't just live, it

[1:16]  multiplies. Let's talk about faith, leadership, and the grind behind running one of the most impactful nonprofits in California. How you doing today, madam? Are you excited? Was that a good one for you? That was great. You got me inspired. I'm excited. Thank you. Absolutely. I I want to get straight to it and I want to kind of go a little bit backwards actually. What pulled you into this kind of work as a teenager? People don't even know. You started this very early on. Most kids don't spend their free time helping vulnerable communities. Like you were out there actually getting it very early on. What pulled you into it? You know, it was just kind of natural that the people I was in contact with, good friends, were dealing with really difficult stuff. I remember uh we were at a fair and one of my good friends was talking about how he was getting abused at home and I had to wrestle with do I tell somebody what do

[2:04]  I do and I think I was 11 at that time and then you know just going on in teenage years I had just friends dealing with trauma you know they're going through difficult aspects in their life and I just wanted to help and I wanted to you know find effective tools to help I didn't have them at the time, but it was just kind of that passion. I would say by age 16, I saw myself that I wanted to be a missionary, but I knew the mission field was here. You know, I wasn't going to have to go anywhere for it. You know what's crazy is that we're calling you doctor here. You got the degrees, you got the titles, but what was the moment when you realized this isn't just a job. This is truly my calling, my purpose. You know, there there were so many times, but there was probably this one key moment. It was my

[2:54]  husband and I. We've I I was married at 19. We've been doing this a long time together. So, this is a road we've been on together. And he was studying Genesis. And we were already in the mental health field to some extent. So, we saw trauma, addiction, human trafficking, just terrible things. And at the time, it seemed scattered. And he was studying Genesis. And it was this aha moment when he's reading the curses.

[3:18]  And it says there's a war or enmity between human seed or woman's seed and Satan's seed. And he's like, man, this is a war that's genetic, biological, sexual. It's Satan against humans. And really, the attack is against the family. And so that was a moment in time we said, okay, if the attacks against the family, how do we strengthen families? And it turned into a mantra we use to today in everything we do. equip people, strengthen families, impact communities.

[3:51]  I love this. And I love that you and your husband lead together. Yeah, absolutely. What's that one thing that he brings to the table that makes the mission stronger? And what's that one thing that you bring that he can't touch? Oh, that's a good one. I'll get in trouble if he's seen it now. So, for sure, his biggest strength I appreciate every day is he is up above it all. So how he thinks is a 40,000 ft view and that's really helpful because a lot of times day in day out I'm with trauma difficulty you know craziness of just like intensity everything's you know life uh you know people's lives are in danger everything's very difficult and so when I go home he pulls me up above that and he says look at the big picture again and he helps me uh come above it all and remember the vision and remember

[4:40]  you know why we're doing everything and how to stay creative and flexible. So I greatly appreciate that he has a big picture vision and he can remind me of it every day. For me I would say and this is obvious a way we come at together as a team too. I can make complex things simple. So I am a doctor.

[5:02]  I know a lot of psychology, a lot of brain science, a lot of information that's really impactful but I can make it very simple for everybody to understand. So sometimes he has very sophisticated ideas, brilliant, amazing ideas, and as long as I can get it, I can give it to the world. So we we spent years of me, you know, getting it all from him. And then I'd go teach I'd teach a class, I'd teach this. I sound I sound really is coming from him, but I have the heart, you know, to bring it into something that's bite-size that everybody could understand. That that's something that is amazing. talk also actually when you think about being able to I always say make it make sense right dumbing it down because I was a facilitator at one point and and people always like man you're so good I'm like

[5:50]  yeah because I understood what I was teaching and all I wanted to do is to make it make sense so I would actually teach it like you know physically teach it off a PowerPoint because that's what I was hired to do but then when I actually got the hands-on I just made it make sense like just dumbing it down for people because you are Right? People may see your husband and get lost. And then people see you and you're like, "Wow, but you guys said the same exact things.

[6:13]  It was just the words you used. Maybe there how you told it, the energy you gave it. There's so many different ways of it." And and your husband's probably going to be mad that you shared that he's not that good. But, you know, it's all good. It's all good. No, that's because he's so smart. I love it. You You also mentioned faith that you and your husband have faith.

[6:32]  Um, and I like that. I love that we get into these conversations. But faith not just shaped your path, but it also just kind of led is how you led people, right? Your staff, your clients, and everyone in between. H how has that faith truly just shaped like h and what directions do you see the changes in your leadership skills and things like that? So I was saved early on. So my faith has been a part of my life, you know, from a very young age. And I was raised in a family where, you know, my parents pushed it to be personal, you know, that you study the Bible, you understand your faith for yourself and be able to defend it. So that was always there. And I I definitely had a level of faith that uh you know, I knew God could do amazing things and it was going to be bigger than me. And us coming together, that was something we wanted, but it

[7:21]  eventually became necessary. That what was in front of us was way too big. It could not be us alone that did it. And so it had to be God intervening and blessing and paving the way. So faith became necessary. I do remember a moment in time where I had to switch from doing things because it was right to doing something in faith. So not worrying about is it the right thing or the wrong thing and more am I walking in the spirit and am I walking out of faith.

[7:52]  And that allowed me to navigate a lot more. Um and it is why we do what we do. So we are doing our effort in the physical realm because we believe that it is going to the kingdom you know that people's lives are going to the kingdom if they if they meet God and they know who he is that our work we do in the spirit is going to the kingdom that it's for something bigger in the future. And that is uh has helped in the very difficult times where we've had to ask ourselves, are we willing to sacrifice everything for this? And we decided yes.

[8:25]  And if it all collapses, we'll wake up tomorrow morning and do it again. You know that we're all in. I actually asked you, was there a moment, you kind of touched it a little bit, but was there the actual moment where your faith made you choose the harder right over the easier wrong? I don't know about one moment. There were many moments like that you know for sure. So it was kind of the easy road or the difficult road often. So you know I would say naturally I was young and smart could learn fast. So I did go through education but I could pursue you know jobs with lots of money or pursue you know uh academia you know you I we have a university but there's the road of a you know well uh established institution that you get tenure and you get a lot of

[9:16]  money and you know I I didn't choose that I had to choose every day like what was God calling me to not the easy road those are good roads those are valuable roads roads, but it the road we chose is like I have a gentleman that always says handtohand combat, trench warfare, you know, that's the road we chose for something bigger in the kingdom that you're not always going to feel comfortable in the moment in your physical life. So, I I have had many very big moments of having to choose to stay on the difficult road that we feel is most valuable.

[9:50]  We're just getting started into this podcast and we already have so many moments that I know are going to be really clippable here because you're just you're just so good with the answer that you're giving and and I want to kind of pivot a little bit into your organization which is what you're leading today that East County Transitional Living Center. What what makes it different from the average shelter or program that's already kind of been around for so many years? This is this has actually been around for a lot of years. It was just hidden. Nobody knew about it. and the core raw material that makes it so special has always been there, but I think what I've brought to it makes it better. So, what has always been there that I think works better than anything else I've seen is it it combines uh work therapy along with a faith-based approach. And so, what you end up having

[10:37]  is a community. So, people get there and first thing they do is just get stable. They just rest, eat food, and they're safe. and there's no drugs or alcohol which funny enough is unique. So there's a lot of places they call it low barrier that people can still use and drink because they're worried about housing. We're worried about changing their life forever. So we do not allow any drugs or alcohol. So they have to come in, stay clean and sober and they're just safe.

[11:03]  When they're ready, they work and maybe they do a chore, maybe they actually do a job out there. And it's funny because this is not a piece of most programs, but when I watch that transition, when they get their job or their chore that they're responsible for, their whole demeanor changes, they are proud of themselves. They have self-confidence. So, that's a huge piece that I see do amazing things in all of it. We They have Bible studies and life skills. Bible studies and life skills.

[11:32]  So, they're understanding how much God loves them. They are freely able to embrace, you know, personal relationship with God. And then they're out there working hard and learning how to fight, how to communicate, how to, you know, do things in a healthy way that they might have missed. So life skills and kind of the call to rise to better. Uh we do that also through leadership training.

[11:59]  So they are trained on how to be managers and leaders you know early on in maybe four months into the program they start learning these concepts of how they can be a leader in their family and in their community and it just holds people to higher expectations and they rise to the expectations. So the work therapy, obviously there's lots of faith-based programs, so I don't think that's unique, but I think it's why it works. And then that work work therapy along with leadership and management training to me are some of the core reasons that I've just never seen anything quite like it.

[12:35]  And last time that we actually spoke, you you talked about being family centered care in a world that really is focusing on on individuals. Why is treating the family as a unit so important to you and the organization? Well, I think actually everybody in the field would know this is true even though you don't see it implemented. But you have one person and they want to get healthy. Whatever effort they do to get healthy, they go back into the same system into the same family and community that is not healthy and then it's all it all falls apart. It's hard.

[13:08]  So when you can incorporate the family, maybe even others in the community, then you can have lasting change and sometimes that takes time. So another kind of valuable piece of ECTLC is that it's a year-long program. And so if they have that long under their belt before they go out, they have time to restore relationships, to bring other family members in. And if you have the whole family on board to get healthy, now you have more of a chance that that is change that can last. They have a whole new life. They're on a new path by the time they leave.

[13:42]  Do do you do you recall a story that um maybe you think often a person or family that reminds you why you really do this? I'm could only imagine there's so many of them, but does one really come to mind? Yeah, I do have a lot. So, the one that always stands out, I think it it always stands out because I have a 2-year-old. So, you know, I have two teenagers, but I have my surprise child, you know, a 2-year-old, and she's just amazing. And when she hugs, she hugs really well. And uh so the the story involved a child hugging her mom like like you've never seen. So, that's why it stands out. So, this was a lady that was in Guam. So, she was uh US territory, but not close by. And she had gotten into addiction. She had four children. So, she was in that lifestyle

[14:30]  and nothing was pulling her out of it. Her mom with her kids was in a severe car accident and her mom died and her kids survived and it was a wakeup call and she's like, I got to change my life. So, she left left her kids with family, left to came on her own to ECTLC and and I knew her when she was the first three months is a different program. It's offsite for them to get stable. She was there. I'd seen her cuz she was working in the kitchen. She'd do events where she's, you know, um, helping with serving people food and this and that.

[15:03]  So, I knew of her. We had talked. And then one day on the the main campus, I saw her with her son clinging to her for dear life. And it just caught my attention and her face and her emotions saying to me, "I got him. I got him." And I'm like, "Who? What? What's going on?" She like, "This is my son. I got He was able to come over here. He was probably four. He was pretty young.

[15:25]  little guy just clinging to her. He clinged for like three days straight and then she went after her other kids and she got all her kids here. She got a job. She's doing really well today. She's preparing to move out, looking for an apartment. So, just watching that transformation and you know, it's been a year now she's been clean and sober. She pull out of a dark lifestyle and just loving her kids, pouring into her kids, looking at, okay, how am I going to do life a whole different way? loves God and is is giving her kids God in her life. So, that one I just love. And I think it's because of how how tight her son was clinging to her, just like, "Yes, that's what I want. I want kids to be with their moms."

[16:08]  If the Heart and Hustle podcast has ever sparked any idea or made you think differently, do us a favor. Make sure to guys share this, post it on LinkedIn, or even text that nonprofit friend that you just have. Whatever works. This is what keeps the conversation going and allows us to just grow this community together. Seriously, we appreciate you. And you also said, right, just being a a mom of your own, you know, when you see those moments, you know, like it don't matter what kind of day you're actually having in life when you get home and I have a four-year-old. When that four-year-old gives me a hug, even after she was talking to me any kind of way, it's it's something about it, right? and to just see those moments where kids could be kids and parents could be parents. Um it's it's special and and you you see these issues all the time. So I love it.

[16:56]  I love that you're in that space where a lot of times people get into jobs obviously for money purpose of it, but what's cool about the nonprofit is that people do this because of the love. It's not like you're making a lot of money off of it, right? like but we we do nonprofits because we love to help others and make a difference that you said it earlier. It's not about us. It's about the work that we do here that God has allowed us to even do, right? God's giving us these talents um sometime these testimonies uh these stories that we get to share or hear. It's such a pretty cool thing. And what I actually think with when it comes to like running nonprofits, it really isn't for the faint heart. How do you actually refill your own cup when you constantly are pouring into others? Because that's one of the things I realized is sometimes

[17:43]  I'm like, man, I'm helping everybody, but who's really helping me? How do you deal with these moments? It definitely for me starts with perspective. So, you know, I've done this for a long time. So, there were times where it was more difficult because I would put pressure on myself that didn't have to be there. I would think I need a good eight hours of sleep or bad things are going to happen. Now, I think sleep is very important, but I I let go of that. just like ah let's just see what happens. So, I I stopped putting pressure on myself to, you know, uh I need a certain amount of me time and self-care. And in all these words we use that actually make things worse sometimes because then you feel pressure like, "Oh no, I've worked for five days straight. I should have me time." It's like, "Well, let it go for now." Just deal with today, embrace today, you're tough, you're a warrior. You know, that

[18:30]  type of perspective helped me better. And then I do look for those times. But for me, it doesn't take a lot. When everybody knows when I'm drinking my coffee, the whole world is great. Everything's fine. So, a little bit goes a long way. Now, the the big things that make a difference are when I play with my kids, you know, when when I play with my 2-year-old, everything's better. And sometimes I do things like walk in the dirt with no shoes playing with my 2-year-old. You know, that little touch of nature goes a long way for me. you know, a hot bath goes a long way for me.

[19:05]  It doesn't need to be a lot, but I need to have those times where I feel it like, okay, this is too much. And then I also have good people I can talk to. So, with with that, it's again might be once a month. It can't be a lot in our lifestyle, but it makes a difference to be able to vent and share good times and bad times with somebody that I trust that can remind me, you know, you're doing great, everything's fine, you know, that you just remind me of truth.

[19:31]  Uh, and I I'm in a lucky situation to be tagged with my husband on this team because, you know, it is so much easier to be doing day in day out with us. We joke that you're never going to see both of us in one spot. You know, we're it's either me or him and we're tag teaming everything else we're doing. Uh, but it is a huge reason why we can do what we do is that we have each other and we have that team.

[19:56]  I um your husband wants to be cheesing because it's I love how when you talk about him it's just you put him on this pedestal and I think it's so cool that you and your husband are running in multiple organizations. Um I would really love to know what is the the secret to balancing faith, marriage, leadership and still with a positive mindset like you haven't lost your mind yet. Like how do you balance them all?

[20:20]  So I think it's perspective. So there's this wasn't as easy not easy but it wasn't as fluid as it is now to walk every day like this. So part of the reason we could do what we do now with a good attitude every day is because parts of our brain were broke. You know uh so some of the difficulties that we had were so difficult we had to let go of traditional normal lifestyle thoughts.

[20:45]  We just had to let it go. So when that happened, we were free to just live today, do today. So unfortunately for those out there, you know, I wouldn't want it for anybody. I I I wanted it for myself. I wouldn't change anything. But some of the difficulties we went through allow us today to handle a lot. So um so that's difficult. Uh but other than that, I think um you know, I forgot I don't know if we can edit. I forgot what you asked. I got distracted talking about edit. Listen, Dr. Jade hated.

[21:18]  We're good. We're gonna keep going right now. Um, we're having such a good conversation and that's what I love about it is that it's so authentic that you forget the question. Just talk to me. It's all good. You say pedestal. I remember my husband's on a pedestal. Then what? Oh. Oh, you felt good. Like, yeah. See, I'm got I got my husband. I'm taking care of him over here and he's somewhere. What is he doing right now?

[21:37]  Uh, I have no idea. What is he leaving? What is he project he's working on? He's the CEO of We have several things. So, we have a university, we have a couple different counseling centers, a for-profit and nonprofit, and we do courtmandated, so domestic violence, anger management. So, we have kind of a lot in that area, and we're getting ready to open Genesis. So, again, he's kind of at the top floating around checking on people. He does a lot of trainings for me sometimes just as a volunteer. Um, so he's just kind of around making sure everything's happening. He asks a lot of questions, you know, like, you know, is this still happening? has somebody met with this person. Um so in that way he lives a flexible lifestyle too. So he takes my kids places. He you know does whatever he wants with you know kind of the

[22:25]  weight on his shoulders. So I do put him on a pedestal in a certain sense but that is because this has been a long road and you know that whole time every time I thought there's no way I can go further we have some kind of conversation where I feel inspired again and we keep going. So I am very grateful for that and I know he feels the same way. I know he thinks I'm the most impressive woman out there and you know the times when he's been discouraged I'm right there you know inspiring him. So we are mutually uh you know in awe of each other. He's somewhere right now like his ears are ringing like someone is talking about me. I don't know what it is and we're having a whole conversation. I love it.

[23:05]  H how do you stay hopeful when work is heavy? Um when life gets in the way? uh right now we're we're dealing with all these government issues as well, right? Funding and nonprofit spaces. How do you stay hopeful when this is happening? So again, my path is maybe longer than some. So for me, hope is easy, but it wasn't always. So coming going back in time when it was very difficult to keep hope. We had a phrase called breadcrumbs. And so we'd be on this path where you couldn't see far ahead of you and you're like, "Oh my goodness, are we on the right path? This is so hard. How is it so hard?" barriers coming, probably spiritual warfare, you know, all this stuff. And so we look for breadcrumbs and that's a phrase we use for those amazing blessings that would happen. Sometimes there were little, sometimes there were big, but they would happen and we go, "Oh yes, we are on the

[23:53]  right track. That is only from God. Sometimes others might not notice it, but we knew that is from God. We're on the right track. Keep going." So breadcrumbs became a very important of our piece of our day-to-day operations. Um, and then now it's just so many times God has pulled us out. He's blessed us. There's been too many lives transformed that I just feel like it's rude if I lose hope. That God is amazing. He's blessed us so much that it is my job every day to keep hope and to share hope with others and to remind people how many times God has blessed and that to inspire and cast vision so others can be hopeful. And that's the other piece of all of this was vision. So, and we teach

[24:41]  it every day. If you see clearly where you're headed, that is what keeps hope. That is what helps you make decisions. You know, we we use the metaphor, my husband uses the metaphor of a train track. So, you're on a train, you're going to there. You know, you see your destination. You do not worry about stuff on the right or the left. Who cares? If something falls on your train track, that's when you're worried.

[25:05]  That's when you need to handle it and get that thing off your train track because it's in the way of where God has called you to. So vision and that being a map and a compass, you know, that is also something that we used quite a bit. That was so good. Breadcrumbs. I'm stealing that one. I'm stealing that one. That that was so good. I want to pivot into a different space that you you've really been ahead in which is um virtual therapy. Before it was trendy.

[25:33]  You were already doing it. what made you believe on it early on adopting um technology like that? So I would say need you know uh need and opportunity. So the need was we're watching how people were in remote locations and didn't have access. They didn't have access to therapy but they also didn't have access to training. So they couldn't be in a remote location get trained to help others. There just wasn't a lot accessible to them at that time. So that was a piece of it. The other piece was opportunities. So, we did trainings and so it was easier for us in our mind just kind of naturally like like we've talked about my husband's an entrepreneur so he just and so am I. So, we just kind of both saw like hey we could just live stream this and I remember being at SARP uh which is

[26:22]  a military location for drugs and alcohol in PointLoma in San Diego. And uh and I had you know a little bit of background in technology. So they're sitting at something that costs millions and millions of dollars, right? They've got the supervisors got something in their ear. Everybody in a group and other offices has something in their ear. They're running groups and the supervisor se sitting at fancy TVs everywhere. And they have an algorithm to let you know if somebody's aggressive and all this stuff. And I'm looking at and I'm like, why can't you just do Bluetooth? I'm like, we could we could copy this, you know, using technology that already exists as easy. And that was at the beginning. So, Bluetooth was still no joke then, but it's still I'm like, I don't need millions to do Bluetooth. Well, just a couple years later, you had so much accessible in

[27:12]  that area. And in 2013, to give you a frame of reference, in 2013, I have a video of me talking. I was a dean of a university and I was trying to convince others we could have an online doctorate program, you know, and I was trying to convince them of live streaming people from El Centro, which is 2 hours away from us, you know, and and just having these conversations. We ended up doing that. We had a we had a masters and doctorate online in the Korean language eventually. So using technology to take things way farther than they could have gone if you didn't use it. And it didn't mean things didn't go wrong or you didn't lose some aspects, but what you gained was so much more. And so we just fell in love with it and we were kind of on a mission. We thought, hey, there's

[27:59]  no reason we can't have education, training, certifications, therapy, everything online to the world. There's no walls, you know, is what we we thought in our mind. And that was all before co, you know, co was a game changer. The strengths we already had just we went leaps and bounds there. I remember the day where everything shut down and we switched to Zoom office. It was a healthcare version. We had 50 rooms you could send people to and in one day we took about 400 online group therapy clients and switched them to new. So it was fun. Wow. Yeah. Yeah.

[28:37]  Listen. Yeah. Ahead of the game. And now with with technology like AI, is that something that you're also a fan of? Like let's say you have this chatbot on the website that could do something for you. What what is it doing? So I haven't done the chatbot. We've had discussions, but I love the idea. But things that we've done is we have an online university and so we already know like my son has used CH GBT for years. Like our kids were way beyond us in using AI.

[29:07]  And so what we've done is uh we are using AI to help the grading process go faster. And so we're adjusting assignments so that they be could be graded using AI quicker. We also want to teach our students how to use it well and ethically and professionally so that they have an advantage. So this is allowing people to do much more than they could do before.

[29:33]  You know, for example, when you go for accreditation or uh APA, American Psychological Association, if you wanted to go get approved by them, you have to have measurable learning outcomes. And uh you know, all these things could take hours and hours and hours and then with AI, it's done in a minute. You have to know what you're doing in order to make it work for you well. But if you use it as a tool, it saves you days and weeks and months of time. So, we want our students to know that, but we won't don't want them to use AI and not get the skills they need to be effective.

[30:07]  And so, that we're on the beginning stages of that. I can't pretend like we have it all figured out, but we want to pioneer. We want to be above everything happening so we're ready when it hits us. And I think we've done a great job of it. We're still on the path, you know, we're still learning, but we want to be asking the questions so we are before it hits mainstream media if at all possible. You're like the female version of Gary Vee. You know who Gary Vee is? But I don't, but I'll go find out about it. Oh yeah, like Gary Vee.

[30:37]  Gary Vee though very foul when I mean he's so motivating, but it's the way that he talks, right? He'll use the profanity and stuff, but he just gets people going that way. And the dude has a like a marketing company and now he's a speaker. Millions of followers, but that he's always he's before Uber was a thing, he was investor in Uber. Before Twitter was a thing, he was an investor in Twitter. Before YouTube blew up, he used to tell people like YouTube, YouTube, YouTube. So he's in that content space and and he always likes to show his old videos on when like you mentioned. Yeah. I already said this and look what happened. Like you guys need to listen to me. I know what I'm talking about. So I can only imagine you had that moment when you went back and watched that video like see I knew what I was talking about the whole time.

[31:15]  Absolutely. Believe me. The best thing cuz this doesn't always happen. The best thing was I meet with these universities that have judged me harshly and they are very upfront and honest and they go, "Julie, you were right. Good job." And they they they had me do trainings on it and they they didn't have any problems saying like, "Man, you were ready." So that's cool. I love it. I love it. When people say tech can't help hard work, uh what's actually a response? Do you are you in agreeance with that? you not agree? I definitely don't agree. So, one thing is if it's just perspective. So, somebody might say over here like it's not the same and then over here they're using their phone and every other tech to build relationships. They just don't see it in the same way. We have built relationships over technology for a very

[32:05]  long time. How how many years has it been since we've written a letter? So it when we moved to even a regular telephone that's using technology and so we just don't see it the same. You move into Facebook and uh Instagram and all the social media stuff and then you move into you know web- based we have used technology to build relationships for years. So we did this but one of the things we said is why aren't psychologists that are re relationship experts pioneering relationship building using technology why aren't we there and say something doesn't work what could we do to overcome that so in a in a general sense though doing therapy online because I have and I've I've had therapy for myself online I've used therapy with

[32:54]  others online and and I build relationships I can see eye contact. I can see emotions. I can connect. All of that. And we've taught online. So, I don't know how many times I have deep relationship relationships with people I've never met in person. And I'll forget. I'll meet him for the first time and go to give them a hug and then be like, "Oh, wait. We've never really met in person." So, I think most people can understand that concept. It's just if you kind of get into the nitty-gritty, they might get caught in old school thinking and and language to say, "Oh, inerson therapy is better because you'll miss something if it's online." Prove it.

[33:33]  No, I I do agree. It it it depends on the person 100%. I think it depends on how uh connections are. I was always one like yourself where I facilitated virtually. I mean, of course, I love to facilitate in person any day. There's something about that. But I still got across energy, right? You still make a difference virtually. I mean, the first conversation, it was a conversation that we could have kept going forever and we just met each other for the first day.

[33:57]  Yep. You know, so technology, it's something that people like you mentioned may not know how to utilize. But I've also seen people, you think about like the Tik Tok, how many more people come and now become more comfortable in front of cameras that they never thought because now there's community. Now they built all these, you know, what they call family or friends and they show up every day. And even my wife, she's getting into it now. You know, she's been a stay home mom. She's like, "Man, this is so cool. I've built a community of just stay-at-home moms. You know, it doesn't happen without the technology piece, without the the just kind of that virtual world." So, when people say that, I I do agree with everything that you mentioned. I like it. And I really want to talk a little bit as we kind of start wrapping this up a little bit is you've been on both sides of the for-profit space and also nonprofit, but you started with a for-profit mindset.

[34:42]  Why do you think more nonprofits should actually think more like a business? I mean, it is a business, but more in that for-profit space. Absolutely. So, I we started with forprofit because we saw the misuse of nonprofit and basically we wanted to exist because we were valuable. So, in a for-profit model, you either have a service that works well and people buy it and you exist or you go away. And so in a nonprofit mo model, we saw like, hey, if you are good at raising money, you could exist even if you don't work well. And we really wanted to be effective. So that's why we started with that. So that's what I'd say is the value of the for-profit. And we run our nonprofits in that way.

[35:21]  Similar, we want good customer service, professionalism, feedback. Those are our core pillars. And so we run our nonprofits to say we want a good product. that homeless person that you're judging harshly is your customer. How are you doing a good job for them in getting the goals that they are here for? And so bringing that, you know, uh aspect of accountability for outcomes to the nonprofit is, I think, tremendous and I I hope everybody does. We see a movement obviously where we're wanting our nonprofits to be accountable for outcomes and that wasn't always there and I think that's a piece that for-profit o has had because it's had to not that you can't have misuse of forprofits but basically if you're

[36:10]  selling something and it's not a good product you're not going to exist forever and so that's what I hope we can bring to the nonprofit is accountability of outcomes and with your experience now in the nonprofit world. I mean really both sides of the world. Um do you see a lot of mistakes that people are actually making like when it comes to these passion nonprofits that is pretty much costing them long term? Yeah, absolutely. So, you know, some big themes is sometimes the people making the decisions are not in it. You know, they're not boots on the ground. And so they might make decisions that seem logical up here, but they're not making decisions based on reality, you know.

[36:51]  And so say uh people that are in uh in the trenches and working with the population and they see stuff that needs to be changed and they go up to make the change, it takes so long by the time anybody, if you're lucky, agrees to the change and it comes back down too late. So bureaucracy interferes with effectiveness in the nonprofit model if you're not careful. And so, um, the other things I've seen is that, you know, people don't care about the outcomes. You know, they're getting a paycheck and sometimes there's not a lot of risk of them getting fired. So, they just float around and they they are not inspired to do a good job. They're not inspired to do better. And so, sometimes you just you just have people that are there because they're getting a

[37:40]  paycheck, but they're not motivated for why they're there. So that that could happen as like a side consequence to, you know, somebody not needing to show outcomes. So if somebody's not like, "Hey, you didn't meet your quota." You know, if nobody's there checking on their work and their quality and that they're efficient, then they could, you know, go to lunch all day and nobody knows, nobody cares. And so you just have a big waste of money. And and we we see this in the data. So, I'm invested, you know, in making sure everybody knows how efficient we are with our nonprofit.

[38:15]  And when we did this whole audit um from a company, they said, "We are 10 times more efficient than any other program like us out there. Why? How come? How are you spending that much money if you don't need to? Because it's other people's money." And if I hear that phrase one more time, I'm going to go crazy. You know, I don't like that concept. Oh, well, it's other people's money. You need to protect your resources wherever that money is coming from. So you can see the misuse sometimes u because people are people.

[38:47]  Humans are humans. So if they can misuse it, they will. Yeah. I'm going to break it down and and and how remember how we make things make sense. For those that are listening, that means the wrong person at the head of the table and the wrong people at the table. Um really to just simplify it because I do agree. I see that from time and time. you have someone the head of the table and and they're just speaking from a place that they just don't have that passion or it is not purpose to them, you know, and when you have someone like yourself where passion and purpose is key, you know, not just for yourself, but every person that sits at that table, you have to be passionate and a lot of the times this is your your purpose. This is your calling. Um, and and you also show somebody that as a leader. So, a lot of times I've been part of, you know, boards where it's hard for people to kind of want to get involved when the person up top is giving the the negative

[39:36]  vibes, you know, the not being a leader, per se. Um, how do we continue keep that wheel going? You can't, you know, so I like what you mentioned. So, for those that are listening, just make it make sense, right? Yeah. Bad head of the table, bad people at the table. I like that. Um, so I I I really love this conversation. we when we, you know, talking about the nonprofit space, we're talking about the for-profit space, we're talking about what what have you done really for so many, you know, years. What would you say to someone who thinks nonprofits shouldn't actually sell themselves from your knowledge? I'm pretty sure you've heard that before.

[40:11]  What are your thoughts? Are you talking a little bit like uh running a nonprofit more like a business and and what could backfire with that? Is that kind of what you're saying? Yeah. Yeah. So I would say the risk is that you miss the vision you know so you and this this is a risk at our place we have to fight you know because we're trying to pay our bills you know so if you get too much into the business side and the money side you're thinking I need to make money to survive and you forget you're dealing with people you know so so you'd have to be very careful to protect that that the mission and the vision are always in front of you and that these are people's lives. They're homeless.

[40:55]  They are needing protection and they need people to pour into them to give them a better chance. And so you could be over here like, "I need another donor. I need more money. I'm going to we're going to close if we don't have it." You know, we use this language sometimes because it's true. And so you have to be careful that you don't get in such a businessy mindset that you forget you're dealing with people and and watching your language. So yes, on the back office with your finance team, you might be brainstorming how you're bringing in more money, but you don't want that at the front talking with participants in the program and counselors and, you know, other people.

[41:34]  You don't want to bring the stress of finances in the business side to everybody to wear them out when they need to focus on people's lives. So that would be one warning I would have for people. I love it. And we're wrapping up stuff here. So these questions, I'm just giving you a random question just because I want to make sure we get some I've got something for you if you want.

[41:57]  Uh not a question, but another comment that fits with what we're saying. Go ahead. So another risk in the nonprofit world that comes easy is people have a big heart. It's so they rescue. And so that's again the distinction of ECTLC is we're not just giving a handout to everybody. We are helping them up. you know, we want them to learn to fish, you know. So, that is a factor is that good people in the good spot of a nonprofit could just care and help too much and rescue and give money and take them to their house and blur boundaries and all this stuff. And if you do that, you're telling that person, "Oh, poor weak thing. Stay weak. I got this." And that rescuer role is not healthy and is not effective. And so we have to have good

[42:44]  boundaries in the nonprofit world. And so that may mean no, you need to make the phone call, you need to find the money, you need to take care of your family. And putting that boundary and not taking it on all their problems on you and knowing how to navigate the difference, you know, when you're helping them and when you're backing off to let them do what they could do for themselves to get that feeling of empowerment and strength to be independent. And so that is a real big factor in the nonprofit world to watch for. I got one for you here. So with all the myths that you probably hear around homelessness or and addiction, um what's one thing you wish you can kind of erase? What's that one myth? I'll say it in a picture instead of a myth, but I think many people see a homeless person on the side of the road. This person

[43:32]  might be skinny. They might smell. They're have their clothes all dirty. they're talking to themselves or screaming mean to themselves and they just see this homeless addict and they're kind of like don't touch don't look don't you know they're walking away I have seen that person turn into a CEO of an amazing company you know so I've watched how that person has gotten their mind intact you know taken care of their mental illness illness taken care of their addiction problem ate and got healthy and worked out and just turned into a phenomenal human being that is then given back to society whether it's restoring their family and taking care of their children or you know a company and whatever else they they've gone so far so I think people forget that they they picture what they see right now and

[44:20]  they forget no this is not just you don't want to just help that person you want to help that person because that person is going to help you in your society in the future and they're amazing brilliant humans this is so good that was actually a really good one I wish we could end it there but we got to go into the last part. Thank you for sharing that. Um because that is true. Anybody, right?

[44:41]  Whether it's a drug addict, someone that's homeless, someone that um may be going through something now, maybe you have a brother or a sister and you're like, they don't got nothing going on with their lives. There'll be nothing. That's not true. We have to change the mindset. We have to help them change their mindset. Um so I love that you kind of put that into a perspective of of a picture. People get that visual. So we're going to now end kind of with that blind question. I know you've probably been anticipating this moment of a blind question. If you can actually write a letter to your younger self, the Julie who just started the mission. Um, what's one sentence she needed to hear? Be brave and don't fear.

[45:19]  You're so good with your words. You're so good. So easy. So easy. What is your blind question for the next leader? Good question. That was harder. You stopped me. I know my favorite question to ask people and you you could decide if it's a blind question. If you were guaranteed that you would not fail, what would you try? No, that's actually hella good.

[45:42]  That is a really good blind question. Yeah, I'm taking that one. We're giving that to the next leader. Okay. Um we appreciate everything that you've been able to just share with us today on this podcast and we just thank you for just being so open. Um it's positive attitude by the way from the first time that I met you. So thank you for that as well.

[45:58]  you made it so much easier for us to kind of navigate this conversation. But for the people that are listening, where where can they find you guys? Are you guys on Instagram, Facebook, LinkedIn? Let's talk where more about where can people find these resources and maybe even keep in contact with you. Yeah, absolutely. So, we just finished a website that has all the other websites on it. So, if you go to go rhombus and go, rhombus is rhombu.com. It lists all the websites, takes you to all the websites. So, uh, you you can go to ectlc.org and find me. I'm there physically at ectlc most days and people can come join me or my emails easily accessible. You Google my name, you're going to find me. But that go.com website will take you right to where

[46:45]  everybody lives, the the home for all the other websites. Well, I love it. Well, I definitely appreciate your time, guys. If you guys have not checked it out, what are you waiting for? Make sure you guys go to that website f follow her. There's just just the beginning of things that are happening. Her and her husband, you got to follow the both of them because they're together. You just don't see them together. I remember that. Guys, this has been the Heart and Hustle Podcast. My name's Ephrain. Thank you so much to Dr. Julie Hayden for being here with us as our guest. We'll catch you guys on next episode, Heart and Hustle Podcast. Bye.