From 15 Patients to 800 Staff: Dr. Paari Gopalakrishnan's Leadership Journey

[0:16]  Welcome back to another episode here on the Hard and Hustle podcast. Our next guest, he calls it going to the dark side. But doctor didn't just leave the front lines, he found a bigger way to actually serve them. Doctor, how are you, man?

[0:30]  Very good. Thanks for having

[0:31]  How often do does everyone call you doctor? Can I just call you doctor to this whole thing? Is that is that okay?

[0:35]  Yeah, with with how long my last name is, I I go by hey you doctor, doc, you know, it goes on and on.

[0:42]  How do how do you pronounce the last name?

[0:44]  It's Gopala Krishnan.

[0:46]  Yeah, I would I would have butchered that for sure. I would

[0:49]  No, man. So, you went from rounds table to actually running a hospital. Like, what made you take that big leap? It's it's um not something I had planned uh at all. Um you know I I um I think I mentioned to you in the past when we met um you know my parents were immigrants really focused us on like making an impact. That was kind of what they'd always talked to us about not making money not you know but really how do you change the world and that was always our focus and that's actually what drove me to becoming a physician really the passion of of making an impact and caring for patients. And then I started practicing and I I became a hospitalist and very early in the hospitalist movement in this country. And and what happened was within few short years of starting to practice, we became a really big practice and we had a lot of growing pains and and and so there was a lot of problems operationally nothing to do with medicine on how to do you know that made me get involved. And what I realized at that time it was was you know when I take care of patients in a single day I took care of 15 patients and I made a great impact. I felt great about it. Um but when I started getting involved in this leadership and doing different things I recognized I was making an impact on all my partners how they practice and that gave me a really a sense of fulfillment and I realized wow I can actually make impact more patients and that's how my kind of leadership journey started and and then it just kind of taken off from there. you pretty much realize you can multiply by just leading, right? Like that's all you got to do. Just lead and people will follow, man. And so that that's good. I love that. You talked about your having immigrant parents. I'm pretty sure that instilled a lot in you. Like what still guides you today from having these immigrant parents?

[2:29]  Yeah. You know, um uh they were very u you know, very focused um on you know, making sure that like I told you the impact was important to them, but hard work. So, you know, they um you know, when I was younger, I I wasn't the hardest working person, and that would just infuriate my parents because they they're like, "You have all this potential, and you're not doing the best you can." And and so that, you know, didn't I didn't hear it growing up, but it clearly sunk in.

[2:58]  That is too funny.

[3:00]  To me, like I don't I don't mind failing. I don't mind um uh you know, not accomplishing something. I care that I put everything I can into it.

[3:10]  So good. No, that's so funny. I mean, I think we all that person when we're young, right? We're not really listening, but we are I always say this even

[3:18]  being a father. You're a father, you said, right?

[3:19]  Yeah, my kids.

[3:20]  So, your kids may not be listening to you now, but they watching everything dad does, you know? So, they they you know, they'll really imitate all that as they go out. Right now, you're like, why are you not listening to me? But no, believe me, they're soaking it all in. Yeah. Um, you joke about going through the dark side. What surprised you most about the shift of going through the dark side?

[3:37]  What surprised me the most is um I didn't realize when I was a clinical physician all the things that the the the leaders are balancing. um you know you I had this mindset of you know they're sitting in the office drinking a coffee making decisions you know coming in at 8 leaving you know 4:30 and and you know and it looked easy and and then I got in and I realized oh oh my god as I as I was going through these different roles it's all competing priorities and there's only so many resources and now you're making judgments and and that was the thing that I think I realized that um the clinical team didn't understand all the pressures and the decisions that the leaders were trying to make and and vice versa. Do you know I don't think I don't think you know on the on the on the leadership side everybody understood the day-to-day challenges that our frontline uh doctors and nurses and staff have when you know when um we make decisions on something that's going to impact a a frontline uh provider's workflow. We're like, "Oh, it's just one little thing." And and then it's like, but for them it's like a thousand little things of a really, you know, and so so made me realize like, wow, neither side um understand each other very well.

[4:53]  Correct. And I think that's where you come in where you want to create this space where your staff can actually challenge you, right, without fear. How does this to happen? Is it in place? Do you see it already different than what you had it back when you were just on the front lines? I mean it's just it's it's it's it's you know 20 years ago to now it's light and day difference in just medicine in general right medicine evolves. Uh the EMR electronic health record evolves uh the community evolves. Everybody's changing and so so it's hard to say you know like how we did it 20 years ago is how we're doing it now. There's there's challenges and and and I think that's the thing about what I really appreciate about leadership is um no one year is the same. No one. And and things are changing and if you're not if you don't have your, you know, antennas out there to understand what's happening in your community and your patients and your doctors, your nurses, your frontline, your leaders, u if you don't understand those changes, you're never going to be able to pivot the way you need to. And you can't ever um you know there's a I'm sure you've read like Simon Synynic stuff around infinite mindset and and you know I'm that really resonates a lot with me because it's there's not a start and a finish and we always think there's winners and losers and there's not. It's it's it's about surviving and sustaining and improving and so you're always having to kind of do that and so that's that's how I would kind of answer that.

[6:19]  Yeah. No, I I appreciate that. Mindset is everything. When you mentioned mindset, like I love the mindset, right? Literally created a journal called Mindset Reset. Yeah. Because it as leaders, man, in this space, we kind of need that at times, man. We we show up, we put on these these different hats at times, like, you know, maybe CEO one day, but then maybe you're also helping out at the front line, you know, where you don't need to be. So, I love that you just talk about also evolving. What does it actually look like today? And what it looks like today is that 95% of a scribes is doing documentation, right? What does that unlock for doctors that a a scribes is now a thing where we could have more actual face to face conversation versus them never even really look knowing what we look like. They could see us in the streets and never even know that uh they just served us, right? I think that's kind of what it was the reality of it.

[7:07]  Absolutely. I I think I think this is the most exciting time in in in medicine for for that reason. um you know we have um taken our frontline uh clinician away from what they went into medicine to do to take care of their patients and have a a connection right we've given them so much administrative burden that it makes it harder for them to do their jobs um I also think the other thing is you know if you talk to people in my role across the country they're going to tell you their biggest challenge is workforce we don't have enough frontline staff doctors nurses in this country now and it's only going to get worse in 10 years as as the population continues to age. So So we're going to have to work smarter, not harder. We're going to have to make it more fulfilling for our providers and our, you know, physicians and our uh nurses to be able to work with their patients and not feel, oh, now I have to go do another hour of something else that has nothing to do with patient care, but more to do with documentation or X, Y, and Z. You know what I mean? Um, you know, like my wife, I I've shared this with you. She's a nurse practitioner and every day she works clinically seeing patients. Um, you know, uh, starting about 6:30 to 7:00, she's at our dining room table till about 10:00 or 11:00 and she's miserable doing that, you know, and and and that's not what she enjoys. She enjoys the patient care aspect. And I I think this is where, you know, we talk about the AI scribe, but to be honest with you, I think there's a lot more of I think we're just scratching the surface

[8:35]  of how how technology and AI can support,

[8:38]  you know, not replace but support our our our physicians and nurses and clinicians to do their jobs better.

[8:46]  Dr. You had to emphasize on support, not replace. Why are you hearing the fear that people are having of you know replacement? Is that is that why you had to emphasize on that?

[8:57]  Yeah, I did because I I mean I've heard from you know from not from not actually from nurses or doctors but I've heard you know like you know I'll be listening to the radio or TV or read something about you know this is going to replace this field. I'm like there's no chance that's going to happen like you you need um but we need augmentation. So, you know what I mean? Like, we need to be able to make our our, you know, clinicians, frontline staff feel like they're providing the best care they can

[9:26]  and not overwhelm them and not cause burnout. And how are you going to do that when the need for them is going up and the supply of them are not to the same?

[9:35]  That's correct. No, I I was wondering how AI plays a role in the healthcare space. Yeah. Right. And when I hear some of the things that are being implemented, especially AI scribes, I always share this story, man, because this lady, I went into the doctor to get my yearly checkup. And you know, this is where my wife usually goes. However, it was not the same doctor, but I didn't know that cuz I don't even know what her doctor looks like. So, I'm talking to this doctor and I was like, "Oh, I think you, you know, met my wife." And she's like, "Oh, yeah." And she's like acting like she knew what I'm talking about. So, I go back to the car and I tell my wife like, "Hey, the doctor XYZ." She's like, "That wasn't my doctor." I'm like, well, she definitely sold me. Like, she knew exactly who you were. But that was just her trying to, you know, make small talk. All right, we got to we got to keep it going. You know, I I got So, I'm like, man, this is the experience that so many people have. And reason why many people don't show back up, you know, to appointments cuz they just didn't like the experience of what it actually felt like. And then it makes every other doctor look bad, too, when in reality it just could have been that one, you know, in the way that they kind of managed it. So, now I love it, man. is do you think there's anything else when you think about how AI could be a part in healthcare that could really change the game?

[10:40]  I mean, think about this like I mean um just time I'm just going to give you a pretty concrete example. Um so you know in in our EMR with with one of the EMRs you can AI can look back in the record right and and assess. So, let's say you're coming to see me for the first time, but you have a record in our system and you've seen other a lot of people and it's a 10-year record.

[11:04]  For me to really do you justice, I need to understand your history if I'm a specialist of all the things you had and and that means that takes me time to go through and and process and put together, right? in in the sense where we're able to take that 10 years, digest it, and at least put a blueprint in front, you know, a a first draft in front of of the doctor that's about to see you that knows here's your highlevel summaries. Boy, does that save a lot of time and the doctor can still go in and investigate. So, you're you know what I mean? you're you're doing a better job of caring for the the new patient because you as a physician don't have two hours time to read through the chart to see every you know what I mean to see you for your 30 minute visit. So I think those kind of things are going to really make meaningful impacts.

[11:52]  If the heart and hustle podcast has ever sparked any idea or made you think differently, do us a favor. Make sure to guys share this, post it on LinkedIn or even text that nonprofit friend that you just have. whatever works. This is what keeps the conversation going and allows us to just grow this community together. Seriously, we appreciate you.

[12:14]  I like that. No, I I I can't wait to see how this really changes the healthcare world. But yeah, that makes so much sense and and people don't realize as you mentioned the tool and the resource it could be saving you time

[12:25]  to do the things that you love more and the things that you hate less, right? the admin task, all of these repetitive things that it's like, "Oh my god, as you mentioned, I just want to help people." And a lot of people that became nurses and doctors, you always hear it's because I wanted to help.

[12:40]  Yeah.

[12:40]  But it's how you really helping when you don't even have the time to help, you know? So, I love what you're saying. But I want to know from a leader perspective, right? This is somebody that's a sitting in in the in the uh what do they call it? You're a you're a suit. Is that what they call you guys? Right.

[12:54]  That's what my friends call me actually. They they all my physician friends, you know, that's that the running joke that I've joined the dark side, I'm a suit.

[13:01]  Yeah, I heard that and um I went to my mother-in-law. I said because I didn't realize it was a thing and I was talking to someone else and now I'll never forget that anytime I see you is like, "Yo, you a suit, huh?"

[13:12]  No, but um co broke broke a lot of systems.

[13:15]  Yeah.

[13:15]  But I also feel that it changed a lot. Like what did it help rebuild in your eyes as a leader in the space? For me, you know, the thing that it helped me with is um healthcare was always I would call it a a big ship. Anytime we wanted to make a change, we would sit and talk about it. We'd have another meeting about it. We'd then say, "Let's pick this date.

[13:38]  Let's pilot this for a little while and, you know, and and so something simple that we could have actually just done in a week and get going." We might have taken a year to decide to do. I'm exaggerating, but you know, you get my point. But but co like we were every day we're trying to see you know what what what the inputs were what was happening strategizing changing and then reassessing and then doing it again and and and you know things like you know you know at our hospital you know when we had CO patients you had to put them in something called negative pressure rooms a certain pressurized type of room well the hospital usually most hospitals don't have the entire hospital like that they have you mean maybe 20 beds because that that's not something you needed. So we had to quickly figure out how do you do that for a hospital if you needed a 100 beds and and so you know our facilities guys our biomedical engineers that you know across the country they've quickly figured out ways to to make temporary negative pressure rooms so that we could be able to you know it's very quick and and you know I think that's what it showed all of us that like our old style of really thinking through everything to the nth degree isn't always great and so

[14:48]  we're too comfortable.

[14:49]  Yeah. way too comfortable. So, you got to you got to be able to like make some assessments quickly and and move. And you know, that doesn't work in every area, but there's a lot of areas that we just are way too comfortable and and and pontificate way too long.

[15:04]  I love this. I love See, I had to ask this question, man, cuz you know,

[15:08]  there obviously when you're in it, the pandemic when we were all in it, it seemed like never ending.

[15:12]  Yeah. But as we come out of it, like yeah, there was so much negative in that moment. But I felt like we also just evolved as a world, right, in the way that we see things and the way that we actually communicate. Mental health became a conversation that we weren't having, right? Like how crazy it now that mental health is probably one of the most used words right now. Absolutely. You know, in high school.

[15:35]  Yeah.

[15:35]  In high school, you're not talking about mental health. So times has changed. So I think there was just a lot definitely. And I I love the way that you kind of just you said it, you know, we're so comfortable. It allows us to just become innovators, think creatively, use those skills that we haven't probably used in so long because it's it was just the same, you know, day after day after day, man.

[15:53]  Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.

[15:55]  You you mentioned trust and healing, right? What have you learned about trust and healing and not just for patients, but even for staff themselves? Yeah, I mean I think the trust and healing for staff is probably the the um the biggest um challenge that I think all of us have faced in healthcare post pandemic. I mean, you know, as the pandemic, the first wave of the pandemic was happening, you know, healthc care heroes, there were there were parades, they were all and then it it it changed and you know, I I saw a survey kind of in the last two years like after the pandemic and they were looking at it was a survey around with healthare workers, other essential workers like police and fire departments and and what they saw was like the healthcare worker post pandemic their their kind of thought on mental health has gotten worse. their thought of burnout had dramatically increased compared to other folks and and you know them feeling not valued and and compared to to uh you know other other workers and and so we've really here I've taken a very proactive stance in that is is how do I you know make sure that they feel safe so we started really you know objectively talking about um you know how are we making the environment safer and we started talking about that but then we made it okay to go asking for help Right. We made we we started training our managers on understanding um you know uh you know uh giving them skills to be able to recognize when their team members were struggling and then giving them a pathway to get there. We we started um u making sure that you know we have something in the hospital. It's it's kind of quirky. I have a sign that says how do I make this hospital a better place to work? And I have I hold it and and there's a QR code and and and people send in different things and and you know my team looks at it and we chronicle it and some things we can't address like right like I can't I can't put up a new building. Sorry I wish I

[17:43]  correct

[17:44]  but uh but but there's a lot of things I can quickly you know and and giving and then making sure there was a lot of forums um that were you know both meetings as well as um organic that made people feel like they can approach my senior leadership team. We call it I I I've mentioned it in the past. I call it my senior u leadership approachability plan. It's not I don't really care about being visible. I am visible. I'm around but that you know just because you're visible doesn't mean anything. You have to be approachable and be able to listen and then do something with it. And so I've made it you know in my time uh as as a president for four years I've been working on that so that people feel comfortable coming and telling me things. And sometimes they'll tell me things that it's surprising that they would come to the president to tell, but I love it because it just means they feel comfortable.

[18:32]  And that means you're doing your job, doc. That's what you wanted, right? You wanted to, hey, come to me whenever.

[18:37]  Absolutely.

[18:38]  What What's funny is when you said, "I can't put up a new building." Why do people even send those in? Like, come on. You trying to stress me out here? Like, why do you do that?

[18:46]  But but they're right. I do need a new building.

[18:49]  Just can't afford one yet.

[18:50]  Yeah, exactly. What do you want me to do? All right. You know, we got the money. you. We're trying to all get paid here. Yeah. Now, this is cool, man. Um I think what's also interesting that you mentioned is that there are only two physician leaders across eight hospitals in Rhode Island as well. Um obviously the ratio is a little low there. Why do why does that gap matter to you or just matter in general?

[19:10]  I think I don't you know it's it's I think it's variable in each each part of the country. I I think physicians in a um physician there's a lot of physician leaders but physicians in a president or CEO role are are less um and and you know two in in in this state that I was talking to you about but I think that's slowly changing. I mean I think one of the things that I know I do is I encourage every physician to think about leadership doesn't have to be going into leadership like I did but lead your own area and and and the more phys I think more clinicians I you know I say physician leaders but really clinical leaders um that nurses therapists that are involved in management and leadership I think the better my personal feeling is the better care we're going to end up providing um and and I think we're starting to see more and more clinician get into this role, but it's also formalized training. I think it's important to learn like how to be a leader, understand the finances, you know, all those things. Uh you kind of work towards u I'm biased obviously. I I you know, I think I think uh clinicians in at the top level of of a health system is is great. There's obviously I know a lot of non non-clinians doing that role, they're doing a fantastic job. It's not, you know what I mean? It just personally I I I get a lot of value for being able to see both sides.

[20:32]  It's cool, man. It's pretty sure you never expected it. Here you are. You are probably always meant to be a leader. You just didn't know it. You went and and picked up something and realize, hey, not only did I pick up a trade or, you know, a career, but now I can help others in this career really. Right. That's really what it was for you. And and you want a my more diverse leadership path, not just the MBAs, right? You could kind of correct me on that if I'm wrong. Um but what would you tell those residents today that want to they're just kind of curious about leading not just practicing? What is your message to them?

[21:06]  Yeah, my message to them is excellent. Um you know um ask a lot of questions, follow a lot of people, get a lot of mentors, figure out what really makes you um you know makes you happy and makes you feel fulfilled. And and you know what I do is I'm I'm doing the really the the business. I I'm running a hospital. So, I'm talking about what's who's taking, you know, what contracts we have for trash, right? Well, maybe that's not going to be for you. But there's a lot of quality improvement. There's a running physician groups. There's so many aspects of leadership that um that some of it's very finance focused and others other is more process improvement. And so, think about those areas where what makes you feel fulfilled. I'm a numbers guy. So, I I I never, you know, it's funny. I never I was always been a numbers guy, but I went to med school and I lost that piece for a while. And so I just absolutely love the fact that I get to, you know, work with finances, work with people, and and provide better care. So I I I feel like I got all of it,

[22:09]  you know,

[22:09]  winning. You're getting all your cups filled.

[22:11]  Yeah, that's what you mean. Let's go.

[22:13]  Uh, no, I like that. I like that you found your lane and things that truly make you happy in the space. And um I can't wait to see really what continues to happen. Right. Looks like you're you're shooting for the stars right now, man. So wherever you land is a win, I think. Right. Someone that was actually working on the front line. Right now you're just winning just being here. And

[22:33]  how do you personally stay grounded? We talked about just mindset, right? Um I can only imagine burnout happens as well at that holding that kind of big big

[22:42]  what you call it just title, right? Yeah.

[22:46]  How do you stay focused, grounded when things get a little challenging, a little bit tough?

[22:51]  Yeah. I mean, I think a couple of things. I think how I was uh brought up. Well, it's uh it's going to be hard for I'm not going to ever get I'm just not that person. I'm just that's not how I was raised. Um and the other is I, you know, my my success in leadership has to be with my philosophy, which is really leader of equals is how I've always practiced. That's how I've I've always led. And so I just kind of continue because that's how I got success. And then the third is I have five kids. They keep you grounded. Don't they don't let your head get too big. Don't worry.

[23:21]  That's funny. I love it. Listen, I got I got a one-year-old and four-year-old now. And uh my four-year-old, man, the things that she says. So, I can only imagine she's saying this to me now. What the heck is she going to be saying to me a little older, you know, when she's a little older. Oh, yeah.

[23:32]  I love it. I think it's funny. Um I

[23:35]  I definitely got to find a balance in myself cuz I I can't just laugh at everything.

[23:39]  Yeah. that she's going to go to school and do this exact thing.

[23:42]  But um no, I I love it. I love that you mentioned your kids, man. I totally imagine they truly make a difference. It

[23:47]  allows us to realize that it's not even about us anymore.

[23:50]  You know, it's about what we do for the future and what you're doing for the future is letting them know that anything is possible. You know, you there's that. What I love about the way I've looked at leadership and even looked at the path I took was

[24:03]  I didn't graduate college

[24:05]  but I still you know I owned businesses and operated businesses right and I still got to the seuite space and now I'm actually doing my own thing coaching consulting and it just goes to show and I but I did go to school you know I probably got like

[24:19]  three credits left to get an associates degree so I could go but the only reason I even started school knowing that I didn't need it was because I wanted to show there was two different paths and you have an option.

[24:28]  Just don't sit there and think something's going to happen for you. You have to work for it. As you mentioned, it's not in your blood to not put in the work. Like you just want to be better every day. You just want to be better. Whatever that looks like. If it's a better CEO today, then I'm want to be a better CEO today. If today I want to go own my own thing, I want to just do better. So, and I appreciate you, man. Where can people connect with you when they talk about I can only imagine people will be knocking on your door. Where can they connect with you? And um is there anywhere else that you would like to direct us to so we can get more information about just leadership in this?

[24:58]  LinkedIn's a great place. Uh Facebook's a great place. I can give you my email. They're welcome to connect. I love I love

[25:04]  social security too though, dog.

[25:05]  Yeah, that's I draw the line at social security and my bank account, my PIN number. Uh but outside of that, I'm pretty accessible. I mean, I I think u you know um I got here not simply because um I I did all this work. I got here because I have a lot of mentors who've guided me along the way, right? And I and so so I always I think you paying forward things like that's really important. So when people ask, I'm like, "Yeah, come on. Give me a call. Let's talk talk about it because I think that's important."

[25:33]  Yeah. I I I think it's important, but I think for some apparent reason there's a stigma that you don't speak to these highend corporate leaders and it's so false, right? And I love when someone like yourself says, "No, no, no." Like that's not the stigma here. You come knock on my door. I'm willing to talk and I've seen so many great CEOs that do that. Um, and just great leaders, not even CEOs, but just great leaders that are involved that way and some that are not, right? Um, and they're all not going to be amazing. You got to learn from them as well. Learn from those that you feel are not amazing. There's something also there to be learned.

[26:03]  Um, and then also learn from those that, as you mentioned, pour into you and really kind of lead you to become a better version of yourself. So, I do I do definitely agree with what you're saying, man.

[26:11]  Excellent.

[26:12]  So, it's time for that blind question. Are you ready?

[26:14]  Yeah. If you had one word to say to that young aspiring leader that wants to take the leap of faith but is just too scared, what are those words to them? I

[26:25]  I would say um jump in with both your feet. It's so rewarding. Um uh and and recognize that um you know you're going to fail along the way, but that's how you learn. And and to jump in, it's so fulfilling when you when you can kind of get the sense of like you you said it exactly, multiplication, right? When you feel like you can impact more, it's just a great it's it's a rewarding feeling.

[26:50]  Hell yeah. And what's your blind question for the next

[26:52]  So, what I wanted to know is um do they think leaders are born or developed?

[26:57]  Oo, that's really good. Oh, man. I feel like Can I answer this?

[27:02]  Yeah, go for it. You just can't tell the next person what your answer was.

[27:05]  Yeah. Yeah, I won't. I think um life experiences teach you leadership.

[27:10]  I don't even So, I would say something that you probably have to learn. I I could imagine me being born and just I don't know. That's actually a really good question. You got to think deep into it. That's one of those that you really got to think deep into it. But for me, I felt if how I became a leader was life experiences.

[27:25]  Yeah.

[27:25]  Right. The always having to overcome um the sexual abuse, the adoption, um wanting to break a cycle. Like that's how you become a leader, right? If if you don't like something, then what are you doing to fix the problem,

[27:38]  you know? So could have been born in us maybe. Like God could have already had this story written out for us. So I could take it there. Like this is just God's story, right? We're just living it. So uh that's a really good one. I would love to know what the next leader actually says on that one. Okay, cool. Cool, man. Well, listen, it's been a pleasure. Thank you so much for having this conversation. I can only imagine that you're such a busy person, but you took time for us today. And I hope that um other leaders learn from you. You know, those that are practicing right now that they learn that it is okay to be called a suit. Maybe that's a thing as well. Maybe people just don't want to be called the suit. They feel like it.

[28:10]  You look good in it. Yeah. Yeah, you look good. I would like to be called this suit as well.

[28:15]  Um, no. But man, congratulations on your success. May you continue to just make a difference in in healthcare as well. Um, it looks like you're already ahead of the game. When you talk about AI, so many people in your seat,

[28:25]  they're a little nervous. They're a little scared, man. But you realize like, no, it's definitely a tool to help us. So, we thank you guys. Make sure you guys do like, comment, and subscribe. The only way we can talk to more leaders and share the insights that they're giving us, it's free. You just have to just share, like, subscribe, comment, tag somebody. It all is free and we get to speak to other leaders just like this. So Doc, we appreciate you, man. My name is E Frain. We'll catch you guys on the Heart and Hustle next time. Lers.

[28:50]  Thanks. Bye friend.