How Jamie Hunt Uses AI to Humanize Hospice—and Save Time Doing It

[0:00]  If someone's listening right now um and today has loved ones in declining health, what's one thing they can actually do right now to maybe prepare for for what's ahead? I think one of the best things to do is to talk about goals of care because those are going to be different for everybody. You know, there might be people that want to pursue everything. They want to go into the hospital. They they just want to live, whatever that looks like, right? But there's other people that might say, you know, I want to just be at home. I want to spend time with my family. Do you want to pursue aggressive treatments?

[0:32]  Are you a candidate for aggressive treatments like surgery, chemotherapy, those types of things? So, what are your goals of care? I think are the best questions when you start to have um health um challenges in your life. And then um from that, you can kind of develop a plan like where where am I aligned? You can talk to your provider about that like hey, these are my goals of care. what would be the best um route for me at this point in my in my journey. Welcome back to another episode here on the hard and hustle. Most of us avoid thinking about end of life care

[1:20]  until it's too late. But what if planning for it could actually make life richer, more meaningful? And today we're making we're we're actually talking with someone who's changing the game in hospice care. Jamie Hunt, CEO of Top Care Hospice from the ICU to leading a tech forward hospice company. Her journey is nothing short of inspiring. Jamie, welcome to the show and kind of let's start. What is the biggest misconception people have about hospice care? Um I think one of the biggest misconceptions is that people think that hospice is a place you go to die. Um so a lot of people think it's a place um that you actually go to a brick and mortar and then the other misconception is that it's for the only the last few days of life. So once you're on hospice care that's it you're going to die. Um

[2:08]  but in reality um hospice is a robust program that's uh Medicare reimbursed and if you meet the criteria that they have they have specific criteria for hospice care um then you qualify for this benefit that you've paid into um your entire life. It includes, you know, medical equipment, includes medications, um a whole slew of integrative um staff that can help support you on your journey so that um your end of life experience, you know, doesn't have to be traumatic because I think that's what we're really avoiding is a traumatic death. It doesn't mean that it's not going to be sad. Um but we hope that you'll be more prepared and just have more peace with that end of life process. I love it. Yeah, I definitely I mean before you just told me now that's

[2:57]  exactly what I thought. Hospice is where people go to die. So you clarified it for those that are watching right now. Um and last time we spoke before we get on this actual podcast, you told me about how you're actually using technology such as AI to actually um do certain things. Not everything obviously is an AI, but can you kind of talk about what how and and what you're using AI for within TopCare? Sure. Yeah. I think um I started Topcare four years ago and even when you know before this AI kind of exploded in the past year or two um I really wanted to be tech um enabled hospice because um my experience in healthcare has been that it takes a long time to adopt technologies right we we get stuck in our ways it's big organizations that it takes a lot to just push forward with these new um technologies and so I really wanted to

[3:45]  use technology because my philosophy is always work smarter not harder. So try and figure out how we can use these um technologies to make our lives easier to provide better care. And so right now we use AI a lot for documentation. And so um in hospice, you know, you have to have a lot of documentation. It's all about documentation and it's specific to the diagnosis code. And we're humans. We make mistakes. We forget things. And so if you put the note in there and you say like, "Please um make suggestions for this diagnosis code, like what are we missing? What are we not assessing?" And then it kind of just spits it out for you, which before our DO, our director of nursing would have to go in, read the note, you know, look at the rags, and it's just like it's saving that's saving

[4:34]  so much time. Um I think another thing is just education. Um, instead of, you know, having to use your brain and come up with an education plan, you can just say, "Hey, you know what? We need more help with this or a scenario like a a service failure or something that happened." We can put that scenario in there and say like, "Okay, how can we use this as a teaching moment?" Um, I mean, I use it I use it all the time. We all use it. I think our team is pretty um like we're we're easy to adopt it.

[5:05]  We're not we're not scared of it. I know a lot of people are like, "Ah, I don't want to use AI." But yeah, like if you don't use it, then you're gonna fall behind. So, you know, and kind of what you just said, there are a lot of healthcare organization, healthcare organizations out there really kind of pushing back against it.

[5:22]  Um, this fear of it takes away the human touch. How do you actually respond to that concern? I think that the we luckily in our organization and in hospice care, you have to have the human touch. like it's really about presence. It's really about um being human and being with somebody. But the documentation and all the rags often get in the way of that, right? Because you're so busy um oh, I got to document this. I got to make sure this is done.

[5:50]  And you're spending so much time with that part, like the robotic part that you know, now you can have more time to be present because a lot of hospice care is just presence. is just being there and know letting the family and the patient know like hey I'm here for you like what do you need from me? So yeah I I love that cuz I do feel I mean we kind of go into the hospital sense of things and when I speak to those doctors they always mention um how they have to focus so much on the paperwork aspect of it and it kind of loses that personto person. So now we actually are to me we're gaining it back because if some if we can get in this AI where it's taking notes for us and you don't have to be so deep into these books um you can actually give that attention back to as you mentioned the the patient themselves. So I love that you're actually using them. Are you using in

[6:37]  the space as well? Um I know you talked about just the educational purpose maybe like workshops that you guys create. You talked about um client base as well. Um is there any other ways that you guys are using AI that really helps the business? Um, oh, oh, reviews. We use them for reviews, for yearly reviews. That's helped as well. So, nice kind of getting a 10page document, you know, get it done right away. And then again, you can focus on the human connection because then you can focus on like, hey, let's talk. We have time to do this, but you've got the regulation, you've got the paperwork complete, and it's compliant.

[7:15]  Do you agree that we live in a culture that avoids talking about death? Oh yeah. Why are people Why do you think people are so embarrassed and I laugh in bad situations? It's just Why do you think people are so resistant to it? Um it's interesting because I think um you know I think I talked to you about this on our discovery call, but uh we love to plan for our life, right? As humans, we love to plan for our wedding day, our kids, our um that car we want to get. We want to plan for our retirement. We want to plan for the vacation. We want to plan for this home we're going to get someday. Um but death, which is going to happen to every single one of us no matter what. And all those things might happen to us. We don't want to talk about it. We don't

[8:03]  want to plan for it. So, it is interesting. And I It's scary. I think we don't talk about it. It's the elephant in the room. Um, I think that's like the mission that I have with hospice is to just like spread awareness about death, keep talking about it. So then again, it doesn't have to be traumatic. It can be something that you've planned for that you've talked to your family about. Um, when I worked in the ICU, like it was very sad because people don't talk about it and then you have this patient who's on life support who can't make their wishes known. And now the family has to make that decision. And that's really hard if you don't know and you haven't talked about it. So yeah, I think we may have talked about it. My mom when she uh maybe like the last 6 months, I remember her

[8:52]  saying, "Hey, I want to see all you guys. I have some important stuff to share with you guys." And we're already like, "What the hell is she talking to us about?" Already scared. I'm almost 67 years old. So we're like, "Oh my god, is there something going on? All these, you know, this it feels very scary." And then sure enough, she had the conversation and and for us it was still like one of those like is everything okay? But she was doing exactly what you mentioned. She was prepping for, you know, prepping us for those moments that do come. She's understanding and she wants us to know, hey, if there was decisions that are made, these are my decisions. These are this is who's going to make these decisions for me. Um, God forbid I can't speak. God forbid, you know, I I just don't have the ability to do it. So, we're all in the room like, uh, okay. But it was one of those things that we grew up not having those conversations, right? She lost both her mom and dad and really never really

[9:40]  knowing what they wanted. She had to make that decision for them. So, I love that you're you're not just the CEO of of Top Care, but you're also just making sure people understand the mission on why you're actually doing it and what's the benefit of it. If someone's listening right now um and today has loved ones in declining health, what's one thing they can actually do right now to maybe prepare for for what's ahead? I think one of the best things to do is to talk about goals of care because those are going to be different for everybody.

[10:10]  You know, there might be people that want to pursue everything. They want to go into the hospital. They they just want to live, whatever that looks like, right? But there's other people that might say, you know, I want to just be at home. I want to spend time with my family. Do you want to pursue aggressive treatments? Are you a candidate for aggressive treatments like surgery, chemotherapy, those types of things? So, what are your goals of care? I think are the best questions when you start to have um health um challenges in your life. And then um from that you can kind of develop a plan like where where am I aligned? You can talk to your provider about that like hey these are my goals of care. what would be the best um route for me at this point in my in my journey. Appreciate you sharing that.

[10:55]  And do you have a story from your time at Top Care that really captures the impact of hospice care um can really have on a family? Oh, there's there's a lot. There's so many. I think um just generally um I think people after they come on they're like, "Oh my gosh, I didn't even know that this was what hospice was. Like, I wish I would have known what this was. I wish I would have known about you guys sooner. Um, and I think that that's one of the main like stories that I keep hearing.

[11:29]  Um, we do a lot of holistic and integrative care. So, people really like that. We do um at end of life um like in that kind of like more end of life period like two weeks we do a lot of um like sound therapy, aroma therapy, um massage, raiki, um life review, legacy and um people really like that. So no, that's actually really cool. I know that last time that we spoke and I didn't give it in the intro. I mean, hopefully you enjoyed the intro cuz, you know, I wanted to make sure it was top tier for you. Um, but we also spoke about how you started make was meaningful. Is that correct? Make life meaningful. Make life meaningful alongside Top Care. Why was

[12:17]  it so important to you to create that nonprofit alongside a for-profit? I think there's a lot of um financial burdens that happen at end of life that people are not prepared for. Um, it can be like caregiver fees, it could be home modifications, it could be maybe an experience that you want, a medical equipment that's not covered by Medicare. Um, and so just to supplement the costs, I thought it would be important to have um, a nonprofit. Um, as well as bring awareness to hospice end of life without it saying hospice, right? So, it's kind of being a little tricky, but you know, talking to people about, you know, what makes life meaningful to you?

[13:00]  And I think that that can be a question you ask yourself every day. You know, it's mental health, it's health, it's intention. How are you living your life? Are you living your life in line with your values? In line with what makes you um feel alive? I'm going ask you a question. The same kind of question but for the for the nonprofit space. Can you share that story with someone whose life was directly impacted by the nonprofit?

[13:26]  You know, I actually just started it. Okay. So, I have not utilized any of the funds. So, we just started it. I just made like the first bank deposit in February and just some money that people Well, people were were asking us with TopCare like, "Hey, can we donate money somewhere?" Well, we're actually a for-profit hospice, so I didn't feel comfortable taking money from them and so now I put that money into the nonprofit and um stories to come.

[13:56]  Hey, I can't wait. I I would love to know though, have you seen some challenges? Have you seen some differences when it becomes like nonprofit and for-profit? Are you seeing that it's just kind of the same? I mean, in reality, they're both businesses. They're very ran similar. one has stakeholders, one has stockholders, one you're a saleserson, one you're looking for, you know, grants and fundraising.

[14:19]  What are some of the differences that you've actually been able to see? Yeah, I think there's definitely um differences between the two. I think what makes the most difference is the heart of the organization. So, what's your mission? Why are you doing this? Is it just to make money? Is it just to get a paycheck? Or is there heart in it? And I think that can go for both nonprofit and profit, right? So, I am a for-profit, but I was a nurse. This is my dream. I want to make a difference.

[14:47]  Um, you know, we have a mission. I have experience in this. But there's other people that might look at this business model and say, "Oh, I have an MBA." And not saying that this would be bad, but like, you know, it I this looks like a good business. Let's make some money here. And that it's just a spreadsheet and it's just the numbers and it's just how can we make the most profit? And there's not that hard. There's not that, you know, you're going to spend more money on some patients, you might spend less money on others. And like you kind of have to take each patient individually and say like what what what do they need? What is our mission? And like how can we help this patient? Obviously, we can't we can't just throw money at everything because we are a business, but um we really look at the people, we look at our staff, it's not a numbers game for

[15:34]  us. If the Heart and Hustle podcast has ever sparked any idea or made you think differently, do us a favor. Make sure to guys share this, post it on LinkedIn, or even text that nonprofit friend that you just have. Whatever works. This is what keeps the conversation going and allows us to just grow this community together. Seriously, we appreciate you. You mentioned heart. How in the world are you balancing running a a company, a nonprofit with a leading from the heart and you're still having to do some deeply emotional work? Um, I think taking care of myself is very important.

[16:15]  It took many years to figure that one out. And hey, as long as you figured it out, right? Um, you know, making sure eating healthy, working out, I have like a spiritual practice. I journal. Um, you know, just making sure that I take care of myself is really important. And I think one of the biggest things I've learned as a leader is that just because I'm not sitting at my desk and typing away, doesn't mean I'm not working. Um, and I think that that like guilt like, oh, I need to be at my desk, I need to be typing, I need to be do doing. But I think a lot of the ideas and a lot of the breakthroughs I have happen on walks or happen when I'm journaling, you know?

[16:57]  So I think that that's like kind of the mind shift as a leader is that it's not just whatever tasking at your desk all day. No, for sure. Sometimes you definitely need to just step away especially not only you're dealing with the emotional piece but you're dealing with leadership stuff and sometimes it could just be so stressful.

[17:16]  So I love that you found ways that um you detach from the daytoday so you can as you mentioned take care of yourself and great staff. like I just have found the best staff and they really manage the dayto-day and I'm not super involved with that anymore which took a lot to let go of that as well. I was like I just need to get in there.

[17:41]  I hear it all the time when you go from a place where you were like in front of the scenes and now you're probably a little bit more behind the scenes. It's like, but wait, I want to go back to what I was doing, but there's a reason that you're in this leadership seat because you know what? You did all the work. And you'll still continue to, you know, do that work, but at a bigger scale. Um, so I I hear you on that. And you talk about team. I love when leaders always say, "My team is just so good."

[18:06]  And I always agree, but it's like, well, who's that engine to that car that is running? And it's you. you the leader that have found the team that have been patient to find people that are really aligning within your value within that mission per se. So, um, kudos to just what you've been able to do. Like you mentioned, step away. No longer micromanaging. Maybe maybe there was a little bit micromanaging. Oh, I'm not doing that anymore because I trust people, right? Now I can delegate. And I still have to maybe go double check, but I I I'm now at the delegating piece, right? Hey, can you do that? And and I find myself there sometimes as well. Oh, that's a grant that needs to be written on the nonprofit side, or oh, we got to do this. Let me do it. And I was like, okay, matter of fact, actually, I can't do everything, right? there's a person for that. Let me go ahead and just tell them if they need help. I'll be there

[18:52]  though. Exactly. Um leadership is is not easy and I know you can agree and attest to that. What is that one leadership lesson that you've actually learned since starting um Top Care? Um I think the biggest lesson I've learned is to pause and think before reacting. I think in the beginning things were like so fast, you know, and I didn't really know what I was doing and I think I was very reactive and so you like react to something, you panic, you raise your cortisol levels and then you realize, oh, I wish I wouldn't have done it that way or it actually wasn't that big of a deal and you know at the end of the day. So I think whenever something big happens like a staffing issue or a service issue

[19:41]  or anything like that I kind of am just like okay good to know like and then kind of like review it on my own and then come up with a plan. So or with the team for sure realizing that we don't need to answer right away. We think about it digest it a little bit. So that is that actually is a really good one. I don't think too many people would actually mention that one, but I think that was that was right on the head. Where do you see hospice care in the next five years?

[20:09]  Like you're putting so much into it. You talked about the technological the the technology that you're implementing, which I think it's huge. Not a lot of people are there in that space, but how do you see hospice care in the next 5 years and how do you hope Top Care will continue to shape the future? I mean, you're already kind of ahead of the game. Mhm. Um well, there's a lot of regulations going on with Medicare. So that's kind of the unknown of, you know, how is this model going to change? Um is it going to be same? We're reimbursed by Medicare right now. Um there's a lot of the um insurance companies um doing like that Medicare advantage which people say might change the industry. So there's a lot of things that are outside of our control that might change. But my thought process is always again don't panic. I mean adjust to the changes. Um things change and if we can um figure

[20:59]  out opportunities within these bigger um reimbursement models, I think we will be ahead of the game as well. And then as far as technology goes, I think the the nursing documentation is just I think it's going to be a game changer. There's new AIs now that you can just record your visit. Everything's recorded. It puts it into a note. I just like the documentation of hospice because when I started I was I didn't I was a nurse as well, you know. I went out, I saw patients, I documented and it was the worst. It's just like so much documentation. So I think that will help with um efficiency with job satisfaction um compliance um so a lot lot of that kind of stuff. I'm trying to think of other

[21:47]  things um that might change. Um I just hope that people more awareness about end of life. I think people are trying and I think um Medicare will realize that hospice is a a savings to them. you know, we get reimbursed a certain amount every day, which is a fraction of the cost of a ER admission and we keep people out of the the hospital because we see them weekly. We see them every other day. Um, and so I think that if we could make this program more robust, like not just last six months of life, because right now that's what it's for technically. Um, again, nobody knows, nobody can predict you're only going to live six months. But basically, they come up with this criteria and they say,

[22:34]  you know, based on this criteria, you might live six months or less. Um, but I think if they expanded it to, you know, years, it would be a much better program. But that's I do love that. I love that. Jamie, I don't know if we've covered this already. How you just mentioned it. You go from nurse to CEO.

[22:54]  Where was the shift in your mind that said, you know what, I don't I don't want to just be a nurse anymore. I want to make a bigger difference. How do I make a bigger difference? When did that spark in your mind to make that transition? Um, in Topare or in general in life? In in Topare. Yeah. Yeah. So, in Top Care, I when I started, I didn't really have a choice. You know, you work in your business and then eventually you work out of it. And I think honestly one of the main things that I didn't want to do is document.

[23:24]  Got it. But no, but I also think like you know in order to grow as a business you have to get out of it. And so there was a point like once I had enough money once you know we had enough patience but you know in the beginning it's just um you know I started from scratch so I had kind of had to do what I had to do until the funds were there. And how about just entrepreneurship in general? Like did you have that background in entrepreneurship? Is this something that you just learned as you went? Yeah, I grew up in a family business. Um, so my grandpa started a campground in Wisconsin and so then my dad took it over and now all of us siblings run it.

[24:05]  My sister um is the day-to-day person there. So yeah, grew up in a family business. Just always knew I wanted to own a business. My grandpa was very like, "You just got to own a business, Jamie." So, um, yeah, I kind of had little things along the way that I've done, you know, entrepreneurialship wise, like I had a community kind of education group for new moms that I did.

[24:28]  It was called Calm in the Chaos. I blog and um I don't know, just little things along the way like chap made chapsticks and, you know, just figuring out what what can I do? I just need to do my own thing. Oh, so you've been on this entrepreneurship journey. This is this is nothing to you. I'll have a um grandpa still alive. No, he actually passed away. Um how many years? Two or three years ago. Yeah, he was 93. Went on hospice. I got to be there. So, I took care of him. He was only on hospice for like a week, but Wow. Yeah, it was it was a he had a great life. Sorry to hear that. Did was he able to see you, I'm guessing, go into the entrepreneurship journey on your own? Yes, he was. He was a huge mentor for me. I called him in the beginning. And I call them every week

[25:15]  like, I don't know if I can do this. How cool. At least that he got to see that. Yeah. Listen, running a business is not hard. Um I mean, sorry, it is hard. It's not easy. Okay. Cuz if it was easy, more people would be doing it. Yeah. But I always say, uh, the stronger survive. And here you are, Emily, that you said, I got a for-profit. Yeah, let me do nonprofit. Like, you're really challenging yourself out out here, you know, wanting to do more. and and kudos to, you know, your family and grandpa for really instilling um that grit, you know, that resilience that when things get hard that you just kind of push forward, that crying and the the, you know, the self-doubt, the imposttor syndrome, that's all a part of the journey. You know, I've sat to myself as well and told my wife like, "Am I really this good? Like, should I be doing this?

[26:01]  Should I just go get a job?" Like, we all have those moments. So, I love that you you were able to at least have it with someone close enough like grandpa that I'm pretty sure was giving you all types of good advice, you know, uh helping you stop crying and and wipe those tears and keep going at it. So, I think it's amazing. For people listening, what's one thing they can do today to actually prepare themselves for um themselves or even their loved ones for for the future? Um I think just talking about it casually. you know, when your kids are younger, when it's not even a thing, you can just start talking about like my kids, I mean, they they're exposed to this stuff all the time. I'm always talking about, oh, one of my patients die, but you know, you know, it was their time. And so, they they've been exposed to this death.

[26:48]  They've been exposed to this language. And, um, I think that that will help them along the way. So, maybe if you can talk about it, um, you know, even when you're young, when you're very healthy, because then when the time comes, it wouldn't be such a shock. I know there's these these games that have come out. They're called like the death deck is one and basically they're they're cards and it's just like questions about end of life that you can ask each other. So there's there's that way is like kind of more of a icebreaker. But I think just talking about it and being open and um having that conversation versus it being just this serious one-time thing that you do when you're 80 years old with your children.

[27:30]  I have a I have a one-year-old and a four-year-old and my four-year-old is always talking about death. And we're always like, "Interesting. What are you talking about? We went to the beach and she says, "What happens if Luca was to get just carried away by the water and he drowns?" And we're like, "Could we not talk about this?" But it's those conversations that we really do have to talk about. We're on top of the eighth floor and she says, "What happened if I was just to jump?" And I'm like, "Why are you even saying these things? What are you?" But it's happening so early in movies. We see in these Disney movies where people they're seeing that, right?

[28:03]  So it's like it starts so early and we try to sweep it under the rug, but as you mentioned, it's all over the place. My dog my dog passed away a year ago and she's still talking about this dog. Oh, I miss Ella so much and I know she's up in heaven and she's doing like these conversations I didn't realize start so young. And it's like as adults, as parents, we got to figure out how do we have these conversations, you know? um life insurance, you know, I remember the first time we had to hear life insurance. I'm like, I'm 30 something years old. I know. But then you just have a friend 30 something years old just passed away, you know, with a family, left three, four behind. So, yeah, it's we should be having these conversations a little bit more as you mentioned casual because it's going to happen to all of us, you know, when we least expect it or or maybe we do live to be 90 like grandpa, right? Um so it

[28:51]  it is it is challenge. And I'm still kind of almost in the middle between. I don't want to I I love life and I was I can't even think about it. But every single day when I see someone that was my age or even younger, you know, young kids, we see it all the time happening, whether it's cancer, it could be anything. Very very um I have to look at that game. I have to find that game. I think this would be a good game. Yeah.

[29:12]  Yeah. For sure. What What's one piece of um advice or wisdom you leave our listeners when it comes to life, leadership, or even legacy? Um, I think it goes along the lines of this nonprofit that I started, make life meaningful. I think that when we are entrepreneurs, when we're leaders, we're always we're goal oriented. So, we're always looking towards the next thing, right? But I really would encourage people um to um make their life meaningful today. So, wake up in the morning like what's meaningful today? like why is life so great today versus tomorrow it's going to be better right so um and especially because I'm in this industry and I know that you know life is precious I think that if we focus all of our attention and our

[30:01]  happiness on something in the future or a goal it might not happen and so how can you focus on today well having goals obviously but not base your happiness your um everything on that one day in the future when I get the house, when I make the goal, when I lose the weight, when I whatever it is that you want to do in the future, how can you still be happy today? Yeah. Yeah. I love that.

[30:26]  And for people that are actually wanting to support make life meaningful or get involved in hospice care um and be an advocate like how how can people get to you or to the organization or just be a donor or volunteer? Yeah, I think the best way right now because the nonprofit is so um so young, I haven't even gotten a URL. Um no, I do have a URL. It's makelife meaningful.org. Sorry, I did get makeifemeful.org, but there's no landing page or anything yet. Um but the best place would be to topcare.com. It's t a.com. Um we have a form you can fill out. We've got all of our events on there if you'd like to volunteer. Um, we also offer a lot of community events because again, we want to get the word

[31:13]  out there in a way that's not like, okay, this is hospice and like we're pushing like end of life on you. We want regular people to come into our office. We do acupuncture, we do sound healings. Um, we have grief groups, we have them online and in person so that people can get like that taste of, oh, this is hospice. Okay, I see now instead of like, I don't want anything to do with this thing. So that's kind of our way of getting out into the community. So if you go on to our website, we have a lot of events. Well, I appreciate it. We're getting to that time now, Jamie. The fun time. I know we talking about def all this, you know, through it all, but it was really good information for those that are listening. You really have to kind of start having these conversations. As we mentioned, it happens to anyone at any time. Um deaf doesn't there. They don't have what's

[32:00]  the uh correct word? There's no judgment when it comes to it, right? When it comes, it comes. But I want to kind of get into this blind question because the last leader always leaves a question for the leader that's coming after them. So, I love ending this in the in the sense of um let's see. If you could put a message on a giant billboard for the whole world to see, what would it actually say? A message that you want people when they think about just I mean you're in the space of hospice, death, like what is there? You probably say like what makes your life meaningful today?

[32:38]  Making them think. Yeah, I think that's my that's my message today. I love that. I love that. And then and then now is your turn. Now is your turn to ask the question to the next leader. What What does that next question look like? I know I had one and now I want to change it because I've been talking about this.

[32:55]  What makes life meaningful so much? But that's what I would say. I mean, I would say to you like what's going on in your life today that you're grateful for? what's going on that um maybe you want to remove from your life? Like what's something that you don't have to do? Um because again, life is precious and it's not always going to be like rainbows and butterflies by no means, but if there's something in your life that's just a thorn, um how can you remove that? How can you look at um life in a better light?

[33:31]  because um money, houses, cars, material things, all that stuff, we think it might change our life, but it's not going to. So, it doesn't. Yeah. You got to find happiness elsewhere. I mean, we've seen so many people that u first person that comes to mind is Robin Williams. Very rich, very wealthy, very uh famous, but was still dealing with his own, you know, demons because money is not everything. you know, we got to find what's happy, uh, what makes someone happy. And what what I really love is when someone tells me they go from for-profit to the nonprofit, and you're kind of in both spaces, but they'll tell you, man, I'm so happy that I get to change the lives, right? People are working for these Fortune 500 companies, go into the for-profit, never understood that there was a mission that they actually aligned with, that they

[34:17]  love, and now they're like, man, yeah, I took a huge pay cut, but I'm so happy that I'm making a difference and I'm changing people's lives, not just today, but for the future. And today we get to talk to Jamie that's in the hospice space also changing lives making a difference for the future. So Jamie I just end this saying thank you so much for really giving your time for us to us and allowing us to understand what is hospice about because as you mentioned everyone just thinks deaf but there's so much more to it and I'm just so happy that you took the time to educate us and I'm hoping those that are actually watching right now that you start to have those conversation. It's so important because it's happening. It's happening all around us every single day, every moment. So, if you guys are watching, make sure that you guys do like, make sure that you guys do share, make sure that you guys continue to take

[35:05]  care of yourselves as well. Miss Jamie, we thank you so much for being here. Thank you. Take of course, guys. We'll see you guys on the next one. Heart and Hustle Podcast. Lers. to care.