How Steve McFarland Battles 1,100 Scams a Day and Still Leads with Heart

[0:00]  My kids say, you know, Dad, how come you do this stuff? How come you're helping people all the time? I go, well, you know, I've done some things maybe not so cool in my life. You know, I have. I regret some of the things. Uh, but there's a wheel, okay, and a big barrel. And there's tickets in that thing. And and if you're going to go upstairs there, you want more tickets in that barrel with your number on it. And every time you do something good, your chances are better. if you help somebody out, they got another ticket in the barrel. And uh they look at me like, "You are crazy, Dad." You know, you you're nuts. And I go, "Okay, whatever." You know, but I get I get rewarded for that. And uh it it's just being uh you know doing the doing to others you know like you want to be treated is so it it's still the

[1:05]  best. All right y'all. Today we got someone who's just not fighting fraud. He's actually been out there in the trenches from Oakland to overseas and now he leads the charge at the Better Business Bureau. CEO of the TripleB, Mr. Steve McFarland. Welcome to the Heart and Hustle podcast. You ready to get into it? Yeah, great to be here. Thanks so much for inviting me. This was awesome. Absolutely, man. Thank you so much for taking your your time out of your busy schedule because in a little bit we'll talk about those numbers that you gave me and I think it's actually quite interesting for those that don't even know how many uh you know calls you're getting a day or people you have to deal with, right? But let's start I got to we got to start strong. What's one scam you come across that made you go okay now this one's personal.

[1:51]  Uh we have a lot of scams like,00 scams per day come into this office. I think one of them that really wows me maybe is uh probably time shares people selling at time shares. And and the reason why I say that is because the average fraud amount on a time share it it's it's 20 $30,000. We're not talking about a toaster. So, uh, we're not talking about maybe a repair on a headlight. So, the amount of money that these people have lost and may never recover is is just staggering. And so, we've done a lot to to help uh time share victims o overcome their problems. A lot of that has to do

[2:38]  at Better Business Bureau with what we do. We're a nonprofit and that is educating to keep uh the community aware of these types of problems. I I I think another one would be ticket scams, you know, and all the like during the Super Bowl and the and the playoffs and the the you know, the the the Dodgers are in the World Series and a lot of scammers are trying to produce fake tickets and and digital fake tickets and and lure you in on texting, uh, emails, phone calls. So, those are the ones I think that really hurt hurt our community quite a bit. Wow. Yeah. I I didn't even think about um first of all, I didn't even know the B business um the better business bureau was even a nonprofit.

[3:21]  So, I learned that today. Okay. And I think a lot of people are learning that today. However, before we even kind of get into that, you really had a hell of a career, right? You also go from bankruptcy law to tackling international fraud. What kind of pulled you into that direction and what made you even stay? uh you know as a as a kid in high school um my dad uh it was failing a little bit but anyway one of the uh I I thank him for it to this day he got me involved into uh the numbers he had economics of of business and uh I worked in the summers for a local CPA firm in high school to make some money in the summers and then later on uh in college during the summers when I had time uh I worked for uh for a CPA PA firm. But, you know,

[4:09]  I I found out that I wasn't really interested in too much in in tax and and audit. They're very important, especially the audit side for me, is to learn what's going on. I'm a certified internal auditor for heaven's sakes. But I was more interested in what makes people um want to to take money and and funds and coers others and and so I was kind of like interested in the fraud side. So, uh, you know, I majored in, uh, in business accounting and later on in grad school and, uh, I worked as an intern for a few CPA firms and, um, I wanted to be involved on the fraud side and, uh, it was very interesting. I passed the, uh, private investigator exam and the certified fraud examiner

[4:57]  exam after grad school. Um and um I took off and uh started working for after grad school for the uh bankruptcy fraud uh district uh nine and the federal system as a fraud uh investigator uh for people that would run their business, take take everybody's money and shut down and then take that money and start up another company. Now it's harder today. Wow. It's it's harder to do that today with with much of the the more rules that are involved. But so I would investigate these companies that are taking everybody down the road and and getting these people their money back to the extent that we could. And that was very rewarding. It was helping people for my whole career, my whole life. It it's it's kind of know what it

[5:45]  is, but it's kind of strange, but I mean I I pulled a guy out of the water. I was 13 years old and he was drowning in Santa Cruz. And ever since then, there's been so many cases where I just felt like helping people. And so the fraud side wasn't me for it wasn't more of of a thing of revenge or or getting justice or whatever. It was helping the victims.

[6:08]  It it was getting the victims some way that where they could put themselves back on their feet and then stopping these guys from from doing it again. And in in my career today, it's warning people. so they don't become victims. So, it's kind of a different way of help in advance. I want to go back to that that what you just mentioned. You saved a a a kid from drowning in high school. Pretty wild actually to think about Ray Young. Did you feel like there was a moment that really um kind of like did it shift you that moment perspective of life, perspective of how to lead or deal with others? Yeah. you know, um I I've uh I grew up swimming and I swam in in college. Uh it was a great way to help pay for school. Um so I enjoyed that.

[6:56]  Santa Cruz water this this guy on drugs dove off the San San Lorenzo Point uh head first into about a foot of water. And uh I I I'm sure he broke neck, back, maybe more. I don't know to this day, but he was face down in the water. But but I I went out, turned him over, and then slowly brought him on to the beach and carried him on there so that he could breathe. And uh uh uh the the one of the lifeguards at that time ran over.

[7:26]  It took him a while, but he ran over and he said, "I got this. You can take off now." And what he was telling me is is that, you know, you don't want the liability issues of of of what we're going to have to deal with. So, thank you. See you later. Well, I I saw uh a story I think my parents did after I told them in the in the paper about this case and the family was s suing the railroad who owned that point and I got involved at 13 years old as a witness on what happened in this case and ever since it stuck with me, you know, it stuck with me. Would I have done done it tomorrow? Will I do it tomorrow? Would I have done it again? You bet. Yeah, I would have done it. And I think most people would. Uh, but some people freeze, I think, in those situations.

[8:10]  I've had people with that fallen and car wrecks and I've pulled a guy out of a car that's been turned upside down before. Uh, and I don't know what it is. It's just things that happen. Um, and um, I I just move quickly. You got to go. You can't wait. You can't think. You got to do that. And I don't know. That's been an instinct I think that is u my wife says I'm too nosy and I'm too She said, "You want you well, you're going to get yourself killed helping people."

[8:40]  And I go, "You know, I don't care. That just it's just I I can't It's a model flame. I can't I can't resist it." Stephen, you have that good in you, man. Like you said, you just can't resist it. I That's funny, too, because my wife I'm that type of person that I'll probably get involved into things that have nothing to do with me. So, I'll give you an example. I was at Walmart one time and these guys are just kind of going at it, but there's a young kid there. Like, it's just going crazy. I don't even know what they're fighting about at the uh register, but I just felt like, hey man, like we're at Walmart. Like it it's probably not even that serious. But as soon as I even thought about it, my wife already like, "No, no, no, no, no, no.

[9:16]  You don't even know what they got. You don't know there's a gun there or we're not doing it." Yeah, she's and I was like, "Okay." So, yeah, our wives, I'm pretty sure, keep us in check because we'll probably do even more crazier things. But I I love that you're in this helping space and we I want to kind of go back growing up in Oakland. I think you mentioned that you were raised by your grandmother. Was that correct?

[9:36]  Yeah, there was five of us. Uh my mom was uh ill uh and passed away uh fairly early. My dad uh he uh you know he drank uh he drank too much. Um by the time I was 10, it pretty much checked out. uh he he pretty much checked out and we found at an early age with help of my grandma from uh who who was from Alabama helped raise us kids and she was disabled uh and and there's five of us in Oakland. Uh it was it was rough then uh and it's rough now but I mean well I I think we're better for it. Um we we learned at an early age that you had to work. Yeah, you had to work and and my dad was a hard smart guy and a hard worker. No doubt about it. But uh we kind of lost that leadership, you know,

[10:23]  when before we even got in our teens. Um so, uh we found out at an early age you had to work and you had to go to school and you had to do good. Uh and that's how you were going to be a success. Wasn't how much money you made, how was whatever, but you had to be a success in doing something that you liked and and to work hard at doing that. And I I am so thankful uh I am so thankful that we got that work ethic installed in us as kids. We all played sports. Uh and that kept us out of I think some some bad some bad stuff. And you know kids today there's a lot of influence that we didn't have with the internet and social networking and and a lot of the pressures that are on these kids that we didn't have back then. But we had other

[11:11]  stuff. you know, we had other problems and, you know, drugs were big time in the 60s and 70s and uh and we made it through. And I think a lot of that has to do with be how you're raised with with an ethic to work and to be respectful of of other people and their lives and their beliefs. Uh you know, traveling overseas, one of the things I learned is that, you know, we don't have a monopoly on good ideas in the United States. We don't we we and it's good. I think it should be required, man, before you get a a college degree that you got to go somewhere else outside the US and look and see how other people live and and maybe maybe they're not right. Maybe the way they do things are wrong, but you have a different perspective of of the way people live and the values that

[11:58]  they have because we're not always right on everything. But it is good to have a a base a good base of of common sense and and respect. I love that. And what also I love is your your leading style. Um I remember you mentioned it. You lead like a big brother, not a CEO. And I think it really comes from you mentioned life. I mean just kind of by hearing some of the things you had to encounter.

[12:25]  I think life teaches us how to lead like that. You know, I I think there's those that are natural leaders. You're being one of them. This has always been been you, right? You like to lead. You like to help. You like to care for people. and you found your purpose and now you're just kind of in it and just excited because you're still doing what you love to do but still helping people.

[12:42]  Like how cool is that? Do do you agree that life kind of led you to become that that type of leader where you lead like a brother? Yeah. You know, we were a family and had to to to work together and do things to make things work. Um I I I don't know. My my wife says, you know, you run that company, uh your your BBB office, um which is which we we look, we we cover about 21 million people, about 475,000 businesses, and and I I don't know. I I kind of run this office, this business like a family, you know. I I know the names of their kids from our workers. I I know some of their dogs names, you know, and I might know, you know, maybe too much. I don't want

[13:29]  TMI, but but uh I I I think it's important, especially today where we see turnover in our our staff. And it I think one of the biggest reasons that I hear is is that people don't feel valued. they don't feel like there's a val they don't feel valued in what they're doing and that contribution that they're making for your company. Uh so I don't think there is anybody in our company that doesn't think I don't care about them. I I I I don't want that to happen. I I care about all of them. Uh of course we all all firms have better producers than others. We we have people that are are just here for the check and whatever. But, uh, I want them to know that I value what they do. I value their input. And I think team sports has a lot

[14:18]  to do with that with I when I was raised because I do treat it like a team. It's not just some buzzword around here. Uh, we have different cities in our in our company. We we are in LA. We're in we're in Boisee. We're in Vegas. We're in San Jose. Uh, Pasadena. Uh, different guys. They like their own local team. So, we we spar uh all the time.

[14:41]  But it's I think it's a healthy spar. It's not something really personal and it adds to the uh uh uh getting to the personalities of the people and being able to work together. Um but I think the sports I think the family atmosphere we've got out of our our up to 40 people, we've got a half a dozen folks here that have been here over 25 years.

[15:05]  And I think that tells a story. We've got there I there probably isn't very many people here that are not under t 10 years and that I think tells you as a nonprofit we compete with we compete with LinkedIn, eBay, PayPal, Netflix, all these guys in our in our neighborhood. And uh we can't pay like they do. So we gotta we got to be together and you gotta you got to work together and um and I feed them a lot of calories, too.

[15:38]  I remember you saying you guys have some uh what is it? Weekly barbecues. What was it? I know you said something about barbecuing. Look, today uh I What's it like lunchtime, right? So, um they're in the lunchroom. I got everybody Toggos today. So, they're all chowing down on Saturday. Oh, man. Yeah. And uh you know, I I I get a I just get more out of it than they do. It It's a time to share uh like sitting around the table at dinner at home. Yeah. Uh, and people can talk about something other than work and have fun and laugh and whatever and then get back and do your job. So, uh, I don't know. It works for us. Uh, maybe not for everybody, but um, it it seems to to be going okay. Hey, real quick.

[16:22]  Have you enjoying the podcast? We first want to say thank you. And we also just want to give you a little insight of what we're up to at Francis. Some don't even realize that we're working with organizations to help them use AI to create that real human communication experiences where that's actually supporting your your families, those patients or the entire community. We're actually creating tech that connects.

[16:45]  Check it out. Francis.ai. I said food always makes people happy, but I really want to talk about these 1100 complaints a day. Like walk me through what does it look like on a on a Tuesday? Okay, I know today's Monday, but let's talk about tomorrow. We start our day, 1100 complaints. What's the pressure really like? Is it is it pressure or is it ease? Yeah, we have a team. Uh, thank thank Allah for software because we don't have the manpower to answer the phone for,00 complaints. You can go to bbb.org and file a complaint on a car repair or some other uh dentist, uh, contractor, you name it. There's thousands and thousands of companies that you can do this on.

[17:28]  And and in most cases, uh we'll take out the expletives with an automatic redactor. It happens a lot. It's crazy. Uh and then we will send it directly to the company for the consumer and then they will respond back to us. They have a time limit to respond. Now, we're not asking for the companies to cave on on every every uh request that Mrs. Smith has in her complaint. Yeah. Because you know what? A lot of these guys are gaming these companies. They're gamers.

[17:57]  They they want something for free. I mean, we had ladies, you know, she got turned out and she was mad and threatened us because, you know, her her print her printer warranty was expired three years ago and she thought that, you know, she should have a new printer because that one failed. So, it it it there is pressure on our staff. When the consumers don't get what they want, then they call us and they they're they're not happy. It's it's we're a nonprofit and we do everything we can for free.

[18:27]  Everything's free to help that consumer get some type of remediation from the company. Uh on the other side, uh companies are not happy to get complaints either. Uh some of them are deserving of these complaints and they they're not uh they're not very welcoming and they don't treat their customers right. Majority of them do. Uh and we help companies just as much as the consumers. Uh, you know, we have companies that get bad reviews and complaints that are filed on them that should be on someone else. We we help help every company, whether you're a member or not. We will help you to to fix those types of problems. In in the the middle of all this are our dedicated operations employees that take these complaints in about 1,100 a day,

[19:16]  sometimes less, sometimes more, especially after the holidays. and they maneuver these complaints to the proper company and um it it works. I mean it works. We've got a batting average of I would say about 84%. 84% of those complaints that come through get resolved somehow. That doesn't mean the consumer is going to get everything they want, but we're batting about 84% which is hey, you know, that's pretty darn good. I was just actually going to bring that up. That's funny that you even brought that up here. What's the secret sauce? Unless you don't want to give other other teams the secret sauce. I get it as well. But what what keeps you guys 84% is pretty high. Yeah. Now, you know, that's uh that's I think a national type average. You know, we're BBB of LA, Silicon Valley. So, we're California. Uh BBB New York, Chicago,

[20:06]  Miami. They're right about the same, but we could vary, you know, a few points here and there, but we all operate under the same rules, the same guidelines, and the same standards. We're a BBB nonprofit. We don't get money from the government. We don't take money from anybody's taxes. We we we live because we have member firms, businesses that believe in trust and ethics. And so much so that that they they pay us an an annual amount to to be able to show our logo on their site and collateral to show the community that, hey, you know what? We value trust and ethics and that's the way we walk. And and we we have that logo on our site to let you know that that's what we do. And there's 85% of consumers when they see that logo

[20:55]  on on your site, they're going to choose your company over over somebody that's not accredited with a BBB. And we're we're proud of that. That's pretty cool. I'm going to go ahead and jump into a little bit of a hot topic for a lot of people. Um especially those in the nonprofit space because it seems that nonprofit kind of almost sometimes lacks innovation, especially in the technology side. So let's talk about AI. Is this a friend or a f a foe for you? Like you've seen both sides.

[21:21]  Yeah. Um, we are uh having I mean we're having to to our IT teams now are working on how to integrate AI into our programs to better help the community uh to better help uh uh make our messaging and awareness to the community better so that people won't get scammed by these uh by these things. One of the ways a AI is helping us is in the review area. Uh because a lot of people are are filing reviews and they're fake. These companies are they've got reviews for you know 100 reviews from people that don't exist. They were created from some marketing firm in in Bombay. Okay. And now these guys are using it. So AI is helping us detect fraudulent reviews so they don't hurt companies. um they they

[22:10]  don't the competitors of these firms are are that's not cool. You guys are using all these fake reviews and that's not fair. And the FTC has cracked down this year uh and finally made some some rules and are are punishing uh companies for for posting fake reviews. So AI is helping us especially in that area uh and in the lead generation area. Uh on the other side, on the consumer side, we got, you know, ghosting and and and uh impos impostors with your voice and, you know, uh consumers are uh are fraudsters are imposing themselves as consumers to companies to get refunds and and they're imposing as business guys offering deals that don't exist or imposing themselves

[22:59]  as the company when they're really not uh trying to get your money for certain things. We saw this in a great example last month with a scam on FEMA where a couple schemers used AI to help them get money out of FEMA and they used a lady's house that we know as the base and she got a letter at the last minute before these this scamming couple got 100 grand. She happened to get this confirming email. She goes, "I don't have any renters here. I don't have these people here. They're not entitled to getting FEMA $110,000." They were one postcard away from getting that and all of us lose. All of us lose. So, uh, AI is awesome and AI is be careful, you know. Yeah. Yeah. I do see both sides. I do both. We have a celebrity impostor,

[23:50]  you know, that have come through our place and they're they're imposing themselves for cosmetics and clothing, especially in those two areas and shoes. And um, so we got to be careful. We got to be careful. Yeah. Wow. If you could actually have say for the sense of of business and what's going to do for you guys, if you guys had this 247 chatbot, um what what would you like it to to actually tackle um to kind of help what you guys are already doing on a day-to-day, whether it's internal or external? Um well, we we have a tool called Scam Tracker, but it needs to be I I think AI is going to really help that out over the next, you know, couple couple years, hopefully sooner. we we we move with glacial speed around here. So, we we need to speed that up a little bit. Um but uh I I think one thing that I would like uh is that um the tools

[24:41]  would be used to help victims, warn them to warn consumers before they make a choice. Uh, you know how many people call us and they had the a roofer for example? They got scammed by this guy and had they gone and just investigated not just with bbb.org because we're free. But had they looked at our site, there's no way they would have cho chosen Jones roofing company. They there's no way if they could go to the CSLB and other places to check first.

[25:14]  But so many people don't investigate before they buy, especially for big big ticket items. And and our staff is stunned by that. Of course, we're we're jaded. We know better. We know better. But uh it it so many millions of dollars wouldn't have to be recovered or lost from the people who you don't need to lo they don't have money to lose like this, you know. They don't they don't have money to to to lose like this. uh if they would just done some research. I actually um I used to work for the airline and you don't know how many people would call and says, "Hey, I was trying to make a change and I was charged this much money and this difference in airfare." And I'm like, "You were charged what? There's not even a change fee. Like who did you pay this fee to?" And they was like, "Jet blue."

[26:00]  And I'm like, "You sure?" And they was like, "Yeah." And I'm like, "What website did you go to or what number did you call?" Right. Usually with the number they give me, I'm able to just kind of put it into Google. going back to you say it could it could be really easy. You could find these things if you actually did your homework. So I would go and I would just put in the phone number and it would give me a website.

[26:17]  And what happens is that when you go to this website obviously they probably paid to be sponsored at up top. But when you go the first thing you see is JetBlue. And if you don't know you just don't know. And a lot of the it's usually our elderly that was kind of going through this. So of course I have to say hey like this is fraud. I'm going to have to cancel this reservation.

[26:35]  Let's rebook so they don't have your act. So it was always a a big thing and and I can only imagine those private calls end up you know at the BBB as well but I can see yeah every day where people could be taken advantage of just because like you mentioned they did not know better and AI's you mentioned the uh the the voice it's crazy sometime want to talk like I know when I'm getting scam likely calls and I didn't want to say anything because that's just them could get your voice you say yes they got you right uh so I definitely am very aware of it man but what I want to talk about your leadership I I think it it's it's it's cool. It's I love the way that you think, the way that you kind of see things, um the culture you try to bring to or not try that you do bring.

[27:15]  Um what's been that toughest leadership lesson for you, especially in nonprofit work? Has there's been something that you felt um you've had to overcome or had to learn as you were going through the ropes? uh you know uh one of the things yeah the one of the things I think we're fortunate uh and that we learned um is that especially in California we better be diverse. We we better have a diverse staff. We speak uh five languages here um and we have uh folks from all over.

[27:49]  Uh, if I want to make one of my staff smile, I just start speaking Spanish and they the my Spanish is not good. It's it it may be first grade, but I get through it. I I can I can get through it. Let's hear it. Can I can I get a hello? How are you? Can I get that? So, Oh, that was good. That was good, Steve. That was good.

[28:11]  pos now. Um but uh we we have uh Hindi and we have uh uh Canton Kore Cantonese, we have Vietnamese, Spanish uh um Korean uh I think some one more I I forgot. But anyway, we we have to be diverse with our staff and um to be able to take those calls and to take those issues and be able to translate those and put those in people when English isn't their first language. So, we learned that lesson that was pretty tough. Um I think um you know also um uh learning you know as a as a manager uh as an officer of a company not just here but I I volunteer

[28:59]  as a as an officer for you know the the local chamber. I'm the chairman of the board. Uh and I volunteer for other nonprofits. Um, and I learned that, you know, sometimes our problems, you know, we have problems all of us in our businesses with finance and and production and quality. And these are typical things that every company has. I think the ones that I that bother me the most are are HR related issues, human resources problems where people maybe take advantage of the of someone else in your company or or they're they're torn between this and that and um I I don't know or they're they're frequently late or unproductive. Those kind of things here we've kind of gotten a good we

[29:48]  we've been lucky. We I again I thank Allah for because we have been lucky. We think we have been lucky to uh avoid those and I think a lot of it has to do with caring for people and being involved and making them involved. But those are the lessons I think is that um understanding being being diverse in your company with different age groups, languages, cultures, religions and and that has been really helpful for us. Uh and then on the other side is you know again like I mentioned you know a while back is uh showing value to your staff and uh you'll get that back in return from the staff to to your company. You also have this golden rule that I

[30:34]  remember was do your job and be nice. Yeah. Has that ever been tested in a very big way? uh you know um it's it's not easy for us to compete especially during COVID uh because you know there were a lot of people didn't want to work and uh and it's still tough uh in some cases for a nonprofit it's hard it it's hard for us to compete getting you know staff competent staff when we're competing with the some of the largest companies in the United States so one of the rules I put in is that you know what we'll train you but you that's on two conditions You got to do your job and and before you start, you know, wolfing that Togo sandwich down and and slacking off, you got you got to do your job, okay? And

[31:22]  you got to do it right with quality and care and you got to complete it and then everybody's fine. The other the other cardinal rule we have is you got to be nice and that is be nice to your peers because they're getting yelled at, too. Be nice to your your consumers that are calling us to be courteous and be nice to our members to our member firms and non-member firms. Just be nice because we will train you on what to do. We we'll train you what to do. But you got to come in you got to come in and be competent. You got to learn and do your job. Don't expect somebody else to do it. And for heaven's sakes, you know, just be nice, you know. Be be nice. you want to you want to hurt your dog or bark at somebody after work. Okay. But

[32:11]  when you walk in here, just be be nice. You have a smile on your face. Yeah. It's a game changer, man. I was recently, just this weekend, we um I went to go eat at a Korean barbecue hot, you know, hot pot place. And I called and just off the phone conversation, I was like, "Oh my god." Like, I just hope this is not what they're like over there. Right. We were excited to go and when I get there, you knew exactly who was it that picked up the phone cuz it was also the person that was getting everybody seated. Yeah. And I always think to myself like, how hard is it for you to be nice? Just smile. I didn't ask you to come to work. Like you came here to do this today. At least show some kindness. Yeah. Um so I hear you. It truly does make a difference for everyone that's involved here. And it's

[32:58]  not just work. I mean it travels elsewhere, you know. Let me I I just thought of something. I walked out of uh at the time it was Staples, now called Crypto, and it was after I think a uh Kings game. I'm by myself walking. I've got about four or five blocks to walk to the hotel. And I'm standing on the corner of Olympic there at Fig and there's a lot of people that are going out and I don't know if you know the area, but after 10:30, 11, the different crowd comes out and sometimes they're not uh they're not so cool. Got it. I had a lady a a lady and her daughter who was holding her hand, probably maybe four or five. And I'm standing there waiting for the light to cross and she came up to me and she says, "Mister, can can we walk with you? Can we walk with

[33:46]  you for a few blocks so that we can get to our car and and walk with you there?" And I I lost it, man. I I I I didn't show her that I lost it. Yeah. But I'm thinking to myself going, "You know what? Uh she she doesn't know me. She doesn't know me. Uh but she trusted me to help her in case something happened to her and her kid walking to their car for three, four, I don't know how many blocks, but but uh I I I went back to my hotel and I was like, you know what, man? That's the that that was like a metal being placed on you, you know? Mhm. Um it it it I think if you even look like you can help somebody, people can tell. And uh that that is the way that I like our staff to be able to

[34:36]  to help people and they're they're these guys are terrific. They are absolutely just the best and I'm I'd be lost without them. But I think that kind of a situation where you even like you look like you can maybe help somebody. Uh, I I you know, I'm I'm honored. Just really honored. That really gave me I hear you, Steve. I hear you. It happens all the time. And you know, sometimes I think to myself, do we just look like kind people? You know, because I I I would be at a Walmart and I'll be just walking and I don't know cuz I'm always just smiling anyway, but someone will ask me, "Hey, hey, hey, young man, are you able to help me put these waters in the car?"

[35:13]  And like you said, they don't know who I am. They don't know my motive in life, right? And of course, as always, yeah, of course. you know, I don't care what it is. I'm willing to help. To the point that my wife was like, "You just like to help everybody." And I'm like, "Yeah, yeah. That's just who I am. You know, I I don't I don't see color. I don't see your your financial situation." To me is, man, I would love for someone to help me. And that's how I look at it.

[35:36]  Actually, I look at it as as karma. The the good that I'm putting on into this world, at some point, I may need some assistance myself. And I would want someone to help me the same way that I'm helping other people. So, if you want help, you got to make sure you're giving that help as well. It's rewarding. Uh, you know, my kids say, you know, Dad, how come you do this stuff? How come you're helping people all the time? I go, well, you know, I've done some things maybe not so cool in my life. You know, I have I regret some of the things. Uh, yeah, but there's a wheel, okay, and a big barrel. And there's tickets in that thing. And and if you're going to go upstairs there, you want more tickets in that barrel with your number on it. And every time you do something good, your chances are better if you help somebody out, they got another ticket in the barrel. And they look at me like, "You are crazy, Dad. You know, you

[36:24]  you're nuts." And I okay, whatever. You know, but I get I get rewarded for that. And uh it's just being uh you know, doing the do to others, you know, like you want to be treated is so it's still the best, you know. It's still the best. So I don't know. Before wrapping up here, Steve, before we get into that blind question, which is always a fun time for our leaders, um if you could just tell me, man, what's your hope for the future of the uh BBB and for the people that you're protecting, is is there something in mind when you think about the future? Well, uh it's uh you know, our our mission is to create a level playing field where businesses and consumers can can trust each other.

[37:07]  That's tough. It it's been tough for thousands and thousands of years. Consumers don't always trust businesses and businesses are wary of consumers who are always looking for the the cheap fix, you know, something cheap and they want the highest quality and fast delivery, but they don't want to pay for it. Uh so, uh I again reaching that level of of where you've got a level playing field is the ultimate goal. That is the ultimate goal where consumers can go to companies and and and trust them.

[37:45]  All all of us have companies all of us have companies that we really would recommend and we have ones that we will not recommend. So the goal for me here is to get consumers uh aware from education from our from our platform, our mission to learn about the companies that will treat you right and then maybe that'll make the other companies follow along because they're not going to make uh they're not going to make much money if they operate in a in a in a bad way. So again, my my goal is to get as many companies as possible to operate the right way and to get as many consumers as possible to know who they are and uh then then I can uh you know hang up my cleats.

[38:34]  Okay, I like that. I got you one more question for to this uh blind question. You've you've had this wild uh purpose- driven career. What do you want to be remembered for the most? uh you know and it was in the 80s and some guy dared me and I swam from San Francisco to Alcatraz and uh I I re you know I was a swimmer in college so I thought okay I could do this. I put on this happy wet suit and froze my butt cheeks. I I hated it. The water was dirty. I didn't know if Jaws was below me. I I didn't know when it was going to end. It was like two miles. I don't know. And I I was like, why on earth did I do something like this? Um I I don't know.

[39:23]  Uh I I won't be remembered for uh for something like that. I think my uh you know, I'm a dad. I'm a I'm a husband. I'm a I got three kids, seven grandkids. I think I would want to be remembered by them first and then maybe others. But as somebody who uh who was uh stand up, you know, I I I I want to be an example for things that I didn't have. You know, I didn't have that growing up. I didn't have an example of somebody. I had memories of it when I was younger, but not much. But I I would want them to go, you know, that grandpa dude, he uh he was a standup guy, you know, and I say dumb stuff. I tell stupid jokes. I I I'm not infallible and I I make mistakes

[40:11]  every day. But I would want them to know that I I I try to live a good life and um was uh treated everybody everybody no matter who you are, where you're from the same and uh you treat everybody with respect and and and be be respectful. that that's what I would want, you know, to where they they can do the same thing no matter what they choose, their careers, our our kids, my my staff, whatever they decide to do. Do it do it right and do it with uh with honor and uh and ethics. Okay. So, now for the blind question, man, this was actually given to us by uh Candace. She is the CEO and of Open Door Mission and she said that we're going to learn a lot

[40:59]  about you by this question. You ready? All right. What was the last show you binged? The last TV show or whatever show? Whatever show. Whatever show. Uh uh I really liked um 0000 uh it was the drug shows you know during COVID was the only time I really started watching a couple of these things. I didn't have time because I'm a huge sports fan. So I don't really watch a lot of that stuff. I there's one show called uh The Night Agent and uh it's on uh I think it's on uh Netflix and I I was probably that's the last

[41:47]  series Night Agent uh that I really watched. I was a huge 24 fan uh back years ago. I did watch every one of those, but I I kind of like the espionage stuff because that's kind of like my my upbringing uh in my early days working overseas. And um I kind of like the espionage stuff. Uh but again, it's solving uh problems. It's helping people get their money back and those kind of like things. And um uh I I would say, you know, you you leave it, you eat, you live it, you eat it, you breathe it, you watch it, you you just all in this. Steve Cindy, I hope you're watching this. You got the answer from Steve on what he actually binges. But Steve, this is this is your time. This is your time now to ask that blind question to our our next leader, whoever that may be.

[42:34]  Uh, I would say that um, you know, speaking of help and helping people, what are you doing to help uh, someone else other than yourself? I'm not talking about maybe helping grandma walk across the street. I mean, that's something that maybe you could do, but is there something on a recurring basis that maybe you volunteer? Is there somewhere that that maybe you help out some some other way? Uh, you know, we're all involved in in in so busy in our careers and our families. Sometimes we lose sight of being able to help out others. Uh, and I get it. You know, I I get it. There there are times when I'm so heads down, I I don't I don't really think about too much else. I I think what I would ask is what are you doing

[43:22]  to help your community? Not just your pocketbook. Uh, I I've taken, you know, I don't like writing checks. I don't I don't I just don't like it. I don't want to write you a check. I I'd rather help you pick up trash or help something or help somebody. I I don't So, I would ask them, what are you doing? What What are you doing in your community? And uh is it meaningful for you? If not, stop and go find something that is. And because there is there's so many people that need your help, go for it.

[43:55]  I like it, Steve. And for those that are still watching, where can we find more information about what it is that you guys are doing or even just be able to connect with you? Yeah, you can go to uh bbb.org. bbb.org. You can learn about the BBB, founded in 1912 as a vigilante group to to to thwart uh bad advertising, false advertising. That's how we started.

[44:20]  Uh, one more thing that you might want to do to check out uh, things if you want to prevent yourself from becoming a victim, go to scamtracker.org just for fun and kicks and giggles. Go to scamtracker.org and you could see scams in your zip code by type. You want to see locksmith scams and zip code 90051, go to scamracker.org and see what's going on to help prevent yourself and your family and friends from being victims.

[44:52]  Love it. Steve, it was a pleasure to always speak to someone like yourself at your caliber that has really just shown what a great leader should um how they should lead by, you know, and you have so many great examples there. We thank you so much for your time. And for those that are still watching, make sure that you guys do share. It makes the biggest difference. Make sure that you guys do like and also um just tag someone that may need to know about the BBB down below. We thank you guys so much for watching. This has been the Hard and Hustle podcast. My name is Era. We'll catch you guys in the next one. Thank you. Lers.