If We Wait for Funding to Innovate, We'll Die Waiting - Dave Parker Evergreen Life Services

[0:16]  Welcome back to another episode here on the Heart and Hustle Podcast. Our next guest, he once said, "If we wait for funding to innovate, that we'll die waiting." Dave, take me back to the moment you realize that mindset had to change everything.

[0:30]  Oh boy, I tell you what, I I think uh I think uh for me uh in the late 90s, and I'm aging myself a little bit, so that's we're looking at almost 30 years ago. Um when I became exposed to the innovation or entrepreneurship in the nonprofit sector, um it was driven by need. Um and for for decades, organizations became acculturated to a certain way of doing things and funding streams were pretty predictable. We could we could predict how much we might get in grants or from the government or from donors. Uh for what whatever confluence of things that were happening in the world caused that to be more susceptible to to um uh volatility. And so organizations were thinking well we can make our own money and a lot of it was a consultant class was contributing to that idea. Um and it's a it's a sound idea. Um the the sector has lots of tremendous assets. I mean it's a you know the numbers of employees it's a trillion trillions of dollars. So it's it's big business. Um however the mindset is still in my view continues to trail more innovative and entrepreneurial aspects of our nature and that's something that I would want to circle around to we have that

[1:57]  innovative entrepreneurial aspects of our nature.

[2:01]  I love it. We'll talk some more when it comes to innovation and what some what you guys are doing but what other nonprofits should probably be implementing. Let's talk about the consulting really quick because you've kind of left the consulting space just a little bit. You're still doing it, not probably as much, but you realize that I wanted more purpose and less projects. Um, what was that moment that made you say that? Like it wasn't I can only imagine it wasn't easy.

[2:24]  No, it wasn't. And funnily enough, it was really, you know, a modicum of success that caused that for me. um in that as a boutique consultancy you know four or five people

[2:39]  we had um had you know built something that we were able to plug into different communities decent sized markets

[2:47]  and we had kind of a flywheel that we worked which was getting funders that were um interested in the sort of capacity building model approach that we had adopted. It was based on a cohort uh model. So um it it leveraged lots of interaction between leaders and they learn from each other. So in that respect it was more scalable than other traditional consulting models. And so we had customers that were were happy. We had payers uh of those customers that were happy. um and communities wanted to continue to go around the bend. Um so in one dimension it was it was really satisfying for me personally I could see that a lot of the a lot of the the big why of the entire effort was to get the organizations to be more innovative entrepreneurial and throw those terms out. uh but to to inculcate within the organizations the the the belief in their own agency to path uh uh to create paths to a future that's much more tenable. Sustainable is kind of a a word I like a dry word. I'd read somewhere um if someone asked how your marriage was doing, if you said sustainable, that wouldn't be a very uh you know,

[4:17]  good. Yeah. That good.

[4:18]  It's not a good answer, but flourishing. Um, and so the idea that that leaders and organizations could feel better about them having more agency and creating a future where they felt it could flourish. And so um, I I became interested in the why is it the change sticking and what I put my finger on was kind of the mindset. And it was a mindset that had become kind of inculturated to it can only be this way. um and there's only so much we can do and it wasn't a mindset of there are enormous possibilities. Yes, we have constraints and oh by the way constraints are critically necessary for creative for true creativity and innovation and so let's embrace those constraints and continue to uh work against them to see what we're able to create and um and so I I became interested and curious and was curious about working upstream and um and so what happened was I I um sold that consultancy um and started another consultancy quickly quickly realized you know what I don't want to build another business I you know that 15 20 year uh slog I would I wouldn't not do it but now you know I'm in my you know early mid-50s by then and it's like I I don't it's I can't I don't have 15 20 years um so so I continued to work with a few organizations ations under the model of like a fractional executive around strategy and innovation. And one of those customers said, "Would you like to we'd like to have you come in inside the organization?" I said, "Absolutely not." That was my immediate uh immediate um reaction. And uh by the end of that 60-minute Zoom call, I was an employee of that organization. Well, I had to go through the procedure, but I had

[6:24]  I said yes. So, and I and it's it's been a wonderful experience to be inside of Evergreen Life Services for it'll actually it's about four years uh tomorrow.

[6:36]  So, happy anniversary to me.

[6:38]  Yeah. Happy anniversary to you. Listen, we'll talk about that, too. We'll talk about you getting into that role. I really want to talk about some things that you've been mentioning. You mentioned mindset maybe five times. Before we get on, you talk about scarcity. To me, it's a big thing. the mindset, it allows me to really move differently, um, think differently. Why is that so important to you? Where did you realize the mindset was so important to you as well?

[7:02]  I I think it was kind of a a slow creeping kind of realization. Um, because when I moved from the one approach to another, the the new approach was was very much about human behavior and behavioral science. And so I did um spent a lot you know a early partner was a a social psychologist and to really really get deep and to understand it and for me it was a realization of how much little I knew. I mean I was sort of just freestyling my way through human relations like like most of us do but now I wanted to to to understand much more fully and not just in one dimension. So one particular theory that um the consultant class or academics had said this is this is one theory but to understand as much as possible multiple theories

[7:56]  and um and you know it's one of those things where as soon as you pull on a string you realize there are thousands of other strings to pull on and if you're not disciplined and managing your time you could just lose yourself in that investigation. It was one of those where you lose track of time. Um, and then there was a there's a um a writer, author, he used to be, I think, in you know, part of the CIA or something, a guy named Shane Parish, and he has a he has a a podcast, I don't know what it's called, Farnum Street or something. And he said, "Sooner or later, you realize it all comes down to mindset." And that was just said, you know, with such certainty that I okay, I want to go deeper with mindset. So I read, you know, Carol Dwek's book on mindset growth.

[8:45]  So I got a better question. You said that. Is there a moment in your life that you you recall the mindset actually being the thing that you had to focus on?

[8:55]  Oh my gosh, I tell you, Ephra, that's a daily realization. Um, and so, um, I I can't quite put my finger on it. I can look back and I, you know, I don't have any regrets per se, but I can look back and say, "My mindset was really fixed and limited during those moments."

[9:16]  And oh boy, if I had that mindset, this mindset now,

[9:20]  what what what might that have meant? Again, I don't want to frame that as regret, but it causes me to realize when I'm in the right mindset, if you will, to pause for a second, how am I framing this? How am I viewing this?

[9:35]  And oh, by the way, you'll be interested in this. Um, because mindset is such a common thing now. It's become more common and so people will have adjective mindset, whatever mindset books now with something mindset. I've begun a running list and I'm almost to 500 just and they're not things I make up or think maybe that's but it's things I witness. And so for a few years and I'm like up to 500. So mindset, the idea of mindset I think is becoming, you know, sort of infiltrating our cultural framework or thinking. So

[10:16]  it's so powerful.

[10:17]  If the Heart and Hustle podcast has ever sparked any idea or made you think differently, do us a favor. Make sure to guys share this, post it on LinkedIn, or even text that nonprofit friend that you just have. Whatever works. This is what keeps the conversation going and allows us to just grow this community together. Seriously, we appreciate you. I was just talking to another leader earlier and I think the pandemic really shifted that that that process of that, you know, thought that process because in reality, we weren't talking about the mind. We weren't having these conversations so open and now we will we we don't mind talking about uh anxiety and the way we feel mentally and the shift and all that. And I think we we're finding so many more people that want to be tuned into themselves. But it all starts to me as cutting off a lot of the noise. I mean, what are some of the things? So, I'll tell you some of the things that I've done and you tell me things you've done. When it comes to mindset, I would say it was definitely the music I was listening to, right? Had to listen to different music that was just really uh uplifting me more than just kind of keeping me at at a I would say um comfortable place. Um, so that was probably some stuff that that was mentioning God or just mentioning positivity. Like that's the things I need to listen to. Some of the other things was I stopped picking up friends phone calls, right? Because a lot of the times I would hear like, "Oh, how's your small business doing?" And that was already kind of belittling what I was doing, right? And maybe they didn't see it like that, but when you're in a building phase, the mindset is everything. So all those little things, people just dinging you really does, you know, play a a part. Um, it was it was doing more things that I love. Um, and some leaders always share that to me that looks like going outside and and playing with plants. All right. I have 50 plus plants, Dave. Don't judge me, but I have 50 plants, man. And that's what it releases me and just allows me to almost kind of escape from reality. Wrestling. I love WWE. So, that's my escape from reality. doing things that I don't have to think too hard because once you start to think on the things you really got to be doing or you know maybe it's a financial situation maybe it's a personal situation you could easily just be in a black hole and I've seen that so many times with friends where they I'm like what were you doing and that's like I can't even think I'm not eating I'm not doing XYZ so that's just some of the things that I was doing to kind of fix a mindset but everybody's a little bit different Dave for you what does that look like

[12:33]  yeah well no that's that's a terrific question Ethra um I I'm a reader. Um, and so I like to I like to do lots of reading. Um, and one thing one thing that I I do want to dwell on and some of it was it reminded listening listening to me, excuse me, listening to you. Um, we talk about it's an act of will, willpower. And I really think so much is an act of structure. And so the the things you rostered off, I I'm assuming you had to sort of bake those in your in your calendar as non-negotiable. Uh so it becomes a structural thing. It's it's on my calendar. I'm going to follow it and you've kind of built it into the the structure of your your your day. Uh similarly for me if I don't if I don't hold a time or a space as Zach was saying um and so I use time blocking now uh as opposed to you know some of the other ways of calendaring I'll block off enough time to go deep and so and that and that for me is where I get some of my bliss to get immersed in something I'm curious about. Um, we live in such a hurry up world, you know, knock these things off your agenda. Busy, busy, busy. Uh, but to allow for that two to three hours where sometimes when I talk to to people about that, um, and you know, if they ask for my advice, maybe make that recommendation. I could never do that. Oh, really? Why not? I mean, that that that right there that right there, well, that right there is to stop and and dwell on for a second. Is it really impossible? And how have you let things get such that you're not able to say in my own day in my own calendar in the course of a week I can't block off a couple two three areas to have that deep refreshment. Um and so that's one thing I I do I do I'm big in uh on trying to well not trying to but building into my day getting out in the woods. Um and

[14:42]  you're nature type of guy too. not with not with earbuds in uh but the but but you know we've evolved over the the thousands of years for a much different pacing. Um, and you know, 100% of our time was spent in nature and um, and so that's what we're habituated to. And it it must be on some pherommonal molecular level that that's that's our equilibrium. And so you things of that sort. I'm a big experimentter. Um, let me try out this and see what that does.

[15:18]  Yeah, you got to that's the only way we know. One of the things you mentioned I I'll tap into would be the calendar or just that structure.

[15:25]  Um that was huge for me cuz I wasn't an organized person structured. My calendar wasn't as structured as it is today.

[15:32]  And now I teach people how to use your calendar how to you know because time is everything. So if you're not use like to me I use calendar and I don't have to send you anything. It's automated on the back end right? It would notify you today. You probably got a notification that we were meeting in 10 minutes right or we're meeting in 24 hours. And and I always say people don't do that part of that's just the little things that would save you so much time to then go back and read or go back into nature when things are automated and you have a structured calendar. So I love that you said that because those one of those were one of the things that I had to really really work on is working on my calendar and working on those time slots and and sticking to it because that was also the work life balance for myself and for my family, right? showing up to the things that really matter because we also got to remember to in in a when we're working on a mindset, we still got to show up to the things that

[16:22]  we got to show up, right? So, structuring that organization time blocks. I love that you said that. That is huge, huge, huge. Um, and I think some people just need to do that is block those times out, structure your day. Well, Ephra, you've mentioned a couple of times the little things and um of course there's a cliche, the little things add up and things become cliches largely because they're true. But it also um works on a different level in that you feel cumulatively you feel like in fact I do have more control. I am able to do these little things and that sort of shifts you over to a little bit of a different mindset. you know, I have I despite all the chaos in our worlds um in our world collectively where and it's you know, by and large it's always going to be chaotic on some level. there are some things we can't control and by um you know taking that control it you know it builds some momentum on what else what else am I able to insist and again that's an individual thing we have that power to insist this piece it's got to be that way now you know there are all sorts of you unpacking that there are all sorts of r you know it's all contextual but I think more often than Uh, and it's a subconscious thing. We just figure there's nothing to be done about it.

[17:52]  Yep.

[17:53]  And it it it can it can contribute to that sort of there's only so much we can do mindset.

[18:00]  I I love how we started before people didn't even see before we got on. We were already talking about mindset and we were there then we bring it up here because I knew I said let's start the conversation man because these are things that people like we talk about the little things and and we're dropping gems here. These are things that people can just pick up and start doing today, right? There's

[18:17]  and it's a choice. It's a choice.

[18:18]  It's a choice.

[18:19]  It's a choice and it and it doesn't cost anything.

[18:22]  But, you know, sometimes I feel like um the conversations do justice this conversation. People may watch it and hear something like, "Oh, I never thought about that." Or, "You know what? Today's the day I'm going to start that." Which is why I love to have these conversations with different leaders because it shows that all the leaders, we're we're all the same, right? We're human at the end of the day. We all go through imposter syndrome at some point in our lives because the mindset has to be reset, right? And and I I want that leader that is probably sitting here especially with everything that's happening in the world and so many cuts happening within different organizations whereas the nonprofit healthcare that it could play a toll in the way that we are actually thinking, right? And and hopefully these conversations actually resonate with them. But I want to kind of get back to what you're doing today. You're at Evergreen, which wasn't just another job for you. um almost kind of an inside move because you were kind of, you know, already there in a sense, right? You're helping out. What did you see that made you believe that this is this was the battleground worth actually showing up for where you decided was going to do less consulting and actually more execution on the nonprofit side? So, it's Evergreen Life Services and we work with um uh individuals with intellectual developmental disabilities and we have a very large footprint um seven states um and we have close to 2,000 employees and work with around 12,300 individuals across those seven states. And um you know for me because you know in the in the couple of decades leading up to this engagement I recognize that it's a much deeper much deeper broad task. It's not it's not a workshop. It's not a six-month engagement. It's not a year engagement but it's deep uh in the dirt cultural work.

[20:05]  Yeah.

[20:06]  Um and and the way I phrase is cultivating the conditions for flourishing on all fronts. And so that's the individuals we serve. That's the individuals that we employ. Uh and a and a the majority of our workforce does not make through through our what we're able to pay them does not make anything close to a livable wage. And so um and so evergreen life services is exemplifies the challenge I think for most human service organizations uh in the United States um in that um funding is is increasingly volatile across across all funding sources. I mean there isn't a funding source that I'm aware of where anyone says boy it's going like gang busters. we can rely on that. Um and if anything the last five or six years has taught us uh is folly to to to think that way on on any front. Um and um um increasingly because of and you know the the COVID epidemic um pandemic um accelerated this the sort of the sort of wage differences that other industries are able to pay. And so while we're able to pay, and I'm just making this up for a particular state, $13 an hour, um, you know, Costco or Walmart or some other, um, you know, lo you business in that locality is able to pay 17 or $18. And oh by the way, I don't have to go through the same rigor as far as training. And I I don't have the same kind of stress levels that you know what I might encounter in a day working with with individuals that um you know um I could get food thrown at me. I could you know there's all sorts of things that that that you're going to run into. And so historically, what we've been able to to uh tap into is people's the feeling they have of of helping someone else. Uh call it altruism, call it love. You know, I'm big on that word love. And we're we're in the love business as as health, you know, as human service organizations.

[22:23]  And um and that that is our priority. That is our our you know just just that word agape love of humanity and um and what we find is if if we can if if we have cultivated the right conditions the right culture supported them as much as we can in all aspects of their the the lived reality that they have that that then that kind of feeling of connectedness and love to the people they're serving kicks in. and it becomes a how can I not do this? Um and so you know there's a lot there and none of that happens with flips of switches and so um that to me is such a beautiful challenge. Um and um you know I can't think of another organization that represents all aspects of that challenge and um you know I the CEO has been a mentor to me and she's a transformational leader. Dr. Sue Buckles is her name.

[23:30]  Dr. Su Buck Holes. And she's been a what I call a serial social entrepreneur. So this is the fourth organization that I've known that she's been CEO of um Wow.

[23:41]  Over the years, right?

[23:43]  Everyone wants

[23:44]  Yeah. Well, and and and so so it it it's provided me, you know, there's a recognition that this is not a Jack in the Beantock thing where something that you're doing is going to yield the type of results that you see tomorrow, but it's a longterm again cultivating the conditions.

[24:02]  Um and so, um yeah, I mean that's it's

[24:07]  so I ask you, man. I remember um well, I'm pretty sure you've heard this before. Everyone says fail forward, but that's kind of not a nonprofit. It's the case. We should not be failing forward. Um, failure can mean funding cuts. So, how do you actually lead people to take risk when the system is actually punishes the very thing it praises?

[24:28]  Yeah. Boy, that's that's a that's an interesting one. I mean, it the the more I'm sure you'll agree with this. It's more dangerous to have the rhetoric of failure is okay, but have a system when in fact it's not. Um, true.

[24:44]  And so it's don't don't say it if you don't mean it. Um, and so we have the entire process from a strategy and innovation front, it's all dialogue driven, 100% dialogue driven. And um what what we've set up is um kind of I'm going to call it an incubator but mechanisms to try something out on a very small scale minimum viable service or minimum viable product. You know, a key question for me is when an idea comes in and you know, there's always we have sometimes we we crank crank the the uh request for ideas and all these ideas come in and so that's that's a good thing. Um but um a key question is is this testable? Can we test this or do we have to we have to make all of this investment time, energy, money, whatever it may be, just to get it out into the world, then we find out. Um, and so, you know, secondary research and data from history, even if it's last month's data, could only tell you so much. So, we try to on a on a really small scale, get some something out into the light of day to to see how it goes. And so if it doesn't go, it's a very minimal risk. And so we've kind of built into built into the system allowing for that kind of slack, if you will.

[26:17]  Um but um you know, to the extent we birth something into the world, you're right, we don't have the kind of luxury that other and and I'm I'm speaking generally across the nonprofit sector. we don't have that kind of the same luxury that corporations do.

[26:37]  Uh and it's expected within corporations. However, um I'm a big believer in dialogue with your donors and supporters around the wise and wherefors of triing and testing things and buying into the need to push the envelope on some fronts. um when you're relying on federal dollars like Medicaid, you don't have any wiggle room with that,

[27:07]  you know, it's uh so so it it is it's it's a it's a process.

[27:12]  I was thinking you mentioned uh the word risk and I think that right now um a lot of organizations are taking risk risk being with AI because even though people are in fear of the word AI, people also realize that we we need it, right? That's just kind of where we're at today. Innovation when uh it's like social media all over again. People said, "Hey, this this is the future and social media is the future, right? That's that's where everybody gets their news and and their highlights." And now we're talking about AI. People saying the same thing. It's the future. Do you guys see your organization implementing some of these AI uh tools? I think last time we spoke, you said you guys may have already started on some things. Yeah, I mean we we um so in our world because of I'll just start with like the challenge as far as workforce. I mean just looking at the demographics and birth rates um we're not going to have enough people to care for the people that are going to enter into the aging care system. And so um any which way you look at it, there are challenges. And so um technology can alleviate some of that. So smart home technology for example um which any any smart home uh technology provider um you know the question any of us ask is h how are how is AI embedded in this? What is your AI strategy? So, a lot of it is um quizzing our providers, our technology providers as to their um um not just embedding AI in, but how is AI at the forefront of your strategy in your thinking about the evolution of your offering? So, if we're going to align ourselves with you in a three-year contract,

[29:00]  we want to make sure that you're keeping up with the Joneses, so to speak. Um and so so that's one aspect of it is is scrutinizing our providers but then also just in terms of our care work. I mean um you know how can we use technology um to to lighten the load from a a clinical perspective um using AI to to um write reports to to um um have reminders on different as you know different things for our higher functioning clients you know to to use AI in smart home technology and enabling technology to to allow them to um be more self-directed without having to have a person there all the time.

[29:47]  Yeah.

[29:47]  Uh which which can kind of reduce the the workforce load. Um but there was there was an industry health and human services uh conference by an organization called Open Minds in New Orleans just a couple of weeks ago that I and it it was their innovation strategy conference. It wasn't their technology conference which is in October but AI was embedded in every single conversation. So some of it some of it is our organ anyone anyone in our organization that's in a leadership role um to continue to push push push internally so that we don't sort of because we're so inward focused and feel like well everything seems fine right now uh but to have what I would call a healthy paranoia to make sure that make sure that we're um

[30:36]  uh not just aware of it and versed in it in terms of understanding how it can um impact what we're doing, but also for us to be sort of on the balls of our feet feet to think creatively about how we can implement it. Um already in some of the innovation lab work that we're doing and I, you know, me being in my, you know, later 50s, the old school guy in me is like, "No, no, no. This should take two weeks in order to do this correctly. It takes two weeks." Well, you know what? I just did it in eight hours and if I look at it just purely from never mind how it was done but look you scrutinizing from a quality I tell you what it it's it's as good as I what would have taken me two weeks and so

[31:24]  really excited about things how else can I use it I agree

[31:27]  and so I think a lot of it is internally for us to to to develop use cases like that and explore a little bit

[31:35]  does that help does that answer your question% I love it and I want leaders to also think that this technology um is not that it's fixing your broken systems right if anything sometimes it's going to expose them um so be very mindful as you mentioned you mentioned to help with the workload um I I do agree help with the workload that people don't like to do and like to do right we want more helping others and how do you do that well you put AI in places where we can do all the repetitive task all the admin task picking up phone call it's like why Why? Why we need to do that when it's not even the fun work? We want to be able to actually talk to the people.

[32:12]  Well, and we can do that much more mission work.

[32:16]  Yeah.

[32:16]  And that's what we're about. And and um Yeah. And I you know, there's there's the there's a lot to be scared of right now in our world. But and I'm not I mean two things can be true at the same time. I'm not dismissing the nature of what we we're experiencing, but there's always something to be scared of. And um the same feeling that I get when I'm scared in terms of my body, you know, heart rate are the same things I feel when I'm excited. Your body's doing the same thing. And so mindset shift. How can I be curious about this rather than scared of it? Shift it from scared to c to curious.

[32:58]  Curious. I love that. Yeah, because a lot of people are scared. Just I like that. Okay, I'm g have to take that right there, Dave. That was that was a good one. That was a good Well, there there's also there's also brain science around we're not as creative and our IQ goes down when we're scared. It doesn't mean we're stupid or dumber. It just means in those moments that we're scared, we think less creatively and our, you know, our cue if we were tested actually goes down. And so,

[33:26]  it's it's maladaptive for lack of a better. We're going to have to make this one a clip for people can hear that. Man, I think a lot when I speak to a lot of leaders, they think like that. So, let's actually talk to uh to those leaders. I mean, what do you say to the leader who says AI isn't for us? We're too human- centered for the tech stuff.

[33:44]  Well, I I um I'm wary of you as a leader if you make too much of a certain statement about anything. Yeah, I I don't mean that to be so glib, but other than other than things like our core values, um, which should be unchanging, everything else should be negotiable, uh, as far as information and data that comes in as far as being persuaded by someone else's perspective. Um, but, um, that's probably not a helpful reaction to those leaders. Um, so, um, let me think on that for a second. I'm assuming you're you're going to be able to edit edit this this brief.

[34:33]  No, it's okay. It's okay. Listen, this like this is exactly sometime we have conversations and I love it because we do have to think this is never scripted. This is truly just having a thought and we'll come back to that one. But I will ask you um earlier, not earlier today, but early in a conversation that I had with you, you said before that that transparency and failure go hand in hand. Um, what's a leadership moment where being real almost actually cost you then set you free? Do you do you recall one of those moments?

[35:02]  I'm just giving you all the great questions today. You know,

[35:05]  yeah, being real cost me, but also set me free.

[35:12]  Almost cost you.

[35:14]  Almost cost me. You know, I have to I I I don't know that I can go into particulars with this, but um with with Sue Buck Holtz, our CEO, in one-on-one conversations, um I I've been clear about um my own I I don't want to say core values because it's not it's not, you know, that's ever it's more this a tough one. You're a great

[35:46]  How many you think you It wasn't going to be easy. You thought it was going to be easy.

[35:49]  You're No, that's a great No, I love it. I love it. Well, this is how this is how this is how we grow. This is how we grow. Uh

[35:57]  this is one of those moments I would have put in chat GPT. Um can you help me out with this one?

[36:03]  I'm also the sort that um I'm a digesttor. Stuff comes to me later and I'm like, "Oh, that's what I should have said." So

[36:14]  you you'll be at the dinner table like, "Oh my god, this is what I should have told Ephraim, but I didn't tell him." It happens to me, too. I I tell you my my initial gut reaction is sadly I can think of too many times where I might have been more gutless and didn't have the courage um and um you know didn't say or do whatever I believed but sort of took took the the the easy way out and just stuffed it. I mean, I I love I love you being honest as well because not enough people will be honest with themselves, but yeah, it sometimes you are in those moments and you don't think about it to after the fact. I should have done this, man. Why didn't I? Um, and that's just kind of life for us, man. It's to me it's a always a learning lesson. And one thing about life is that even when you fail, there's something to learn.

[37:09]  Even when you fail, there's something to learn, Dave. And so many times I see people fail. And I give you an example. I wouldn't say he failed, but my uh my neighbor gets let go from his job. Code turkey, right? And um I me thinking positive, I had to let him know, hey, one day in a couple of months, you're going to be thinking that same person that got you fired. And he's like, "No, man. I I hate that guy." So, you know, fast forward a month and a half now, two months, my neighbor is making uh double of what he was making. so much more happier, has so much more creative control, um doing way less work. And I tell them again, I said, "Hey, remember when I told you you're going to thank that guy that uh got you fired?" Because if not, you would have stayed comfortable in the job that wasn't didn't care for you. But look how quick someone was willing to let you go, never even asking you anything, you know. And sometimes we're so quick to go into a negative mindset and get so mad at someone and but we're not seeing that there's actually a bigger picture. There might be a reason why we're in this situation. So we're in situations we got to take the positive out of it.

[38:14]  I think there's also a case of um you know giving yourself the permission and space to be a little pissed off

[38:22]  and to to sort of shake your fist at the god so to speak but don't live there.

[38:28]  Um you know just let let the steam uh let the steam burn off. Um I was I don't know where I was reading this but um and you you know being of faith you know the wisdom traditions you know and for me in a lot of my reading just going back deep history and reading what the stoics said and what the what the mystics have said um I I mean they as guides um the the the messages are so timeless but uh something I was reading recently was if you look back and it's probably going to take someone who's my age or older, but if you look back, you know, where you are, the circumstances you're in, um it looks like it it it could only be the way it was. But also, if you study it, there were so many branch points. And so um times professionally that were very painful for me and ego crushing um turned out to be the the times of great the greatest growth. Um, and I, you know, just reflecting on that now in in one instance, a uh an individual who kind of precipitated precipitated some things that was very painful for me. We're good friends right now. Not because of that,

[40:01]  but um and at the during that time I I had would just assume never hear that person's name for the rest of my life. And um and so um

[40:18]  because you know what? We can't dwell on negativity, man. I I've been in those moment sometimes you just got to move on. I mean, why would we continue to live life with that when there's so much more out there for us?

[40:29]  Well, and what matters is what's next?

[40:31]  Yeah.

[40:32]  What's the le what's the lesson? Where's my role in it?

[40:35]  Uh what can I do differently in the future if anything uh maybe in the future I I just ask the question, what am I making this mean?

[40:45]  And um just sometimes that question causes you to pause. Well, I'm making it to mean something about me. It is. It ain't about me that I'm making it about me.

[40:54]  Right. Yeah.

[40:55]  My wife tells me that actually. She says, "You're you're listening and you think it's about you. It's not about you." I'm like, "Oh my god,

[41:02]  you just brought back a bad memory there, Dave." No, man. I've really been enjoying this conversation. I know we got to start to wrap it up, but when we talk about the organization, where where can they find where what you guys are doing? What is the website? Are you guys on social media so they can see some of these different things?

[41:16]  Yeah. Well, evergreen evergreen. So, it's Evergreen Life Services. Evergreenls.org is the website and it links to all of our social media. Um, and uh it's just a phenomenal organization and and I encourage you to to check it out and explore. Um, follow us on social media. Um, think of us in your your regular giving. Um but our tagline is everyone matters and um just to be a part of an organization where that's like it it it is the heartbeat of everything that we're doing um inside the organization.

[41:56]  This is not just this is not just um local to you. This is actually in different states. Am I correct on that?

[42:01]  Yeah, seven states. So So uh we're headquartered in Louisiana. That's where we were born in 1959. um and Texas, uh Arkansas, Oklahoma, Louisiana, I mentioned, uh Tennessee, Kentucky, and Florida. So, seven state imprint. I'm based in Columbus, Ohio. So, I do a fair amount of travel and lots of Zoom. Um but, uh it's just a wonderful, wonderful organization.

[42:28]  Love it. Yeah. Yeah. I make sure that people understand where these resources come from. A lot of times, um we don't realize these resources exist. So even when we think about partners as leaders, you know, a lot of times don't be afraid to call up Dave and ask a few questions. How canate on things I think pride and ego at times just leave as a leader. You you don't need the pride and ego, okay? How do we make a bigger impact? So so many times people want to just do their own thing, but it's like we can actually make a bigger impact if we just bring ourselves together. But I just wanted to bring that out. People just think it's just help, you know, just to give or anything like that. No, but please want to partner up if

[43:02]  if if you if you uh uh would love to talk to anyone that you wants to talk about, you know, innovation strategy in the nonprofit context or um anything that you might have heard today, I'd love to to connect with you. Uh we figure things out through conversation um in in my world view and more conversation the better. We just don't make enough time for it. Well, Dave, I'll leave you with a blind question, man, before we get to your blind question. So, what's one truth about leadership that used to scare you, but maybe now guides everything you actually do?

[43:36]  Wow, that's right in my wheelhouse. I I a key thing for me is um a leader's responsibility is to choreograph tension. And our our um my default setting was I want to avoid tension. Now it's got to be constructive but um we it's important for us to choreograph that and um I I think of any organization has to uh there's that exploit explore continuum. We've got to exploit what's working now to to to really be good at it

[44:11]  to to ring the sponge dry for all it's worth. But we also have to explore for what's next. How do we stay relevant? And those two things are always intention. And so for me, part of my role and my job is to make sure that tension is there. Um, but yeah, so uh, choreograph tension is is one that comes to mind for sure.

[44:32]  That was easy. It's almost like you knew that I was asking that question. What is your blind question to the next blind? Uh, not the next blind to the next leader that we have here on the harder hustle.

[44:40]  Yeah. No, I love this. What a great thing you're doing here. So, what single habit, if implemented for the rest of this year, would transform your life the most?

[44:52]  You got to get deep, don't you, Dave? You wanted to get deep here, Dave. That's a good one. Okay. All right. I love

[44:57]  the point. I I I think deep conversation matters. I feel sorry for the person who gets that question, but

[45:06]  listen, there be so many good questions. But, as you mentioned, man, conversation is so good. And truly why myself and Kenan have done this is because we learn from one another. We get to um help one you know one another whether it's just us or people that are actually watching. Um I love conversations man. I love that we could do this virtually you know to speak to people. It doesn't have to be in your backyard. I think it's just zoom and and virtual world. This is so cool. And people were scared of it man look at the things that are really happening in our world. Which is why I say AI look what is happening in our world that people are really tapping into. Um to me it makes me more creative. I think makes me sometimes even smarter because I'm like, "Oh my god, I would never thought of that." But you know, AI gave me some some great ideas.

[45:42]  So, um, we thank you, Dave. We thank you for the conversation. We thank you for the terms that you dropped as well and for the leader that you are as well, man. And and always choosing purpose over paychecks because that's what you've done in your life as well. So, we thank you guys. This has been the hard hustle podcast. My name is Era. This is Dave. We'll catch you guys on the next one. Later.

[45:59]  Thank you so much. They care.