NOCD's Dr. Patrick McGrath: From Bullied Teen to Treating Thousands With OCD Daily

[0:01]  [music] Welcome back to an episode here on the hard hustle podcast with our next guest that at 13 decided he wanted to help people avoid suffering. He just didn't know what it meant building a global mental health and the movement, what that all entailed. Today we got Dr. Patrick. How are you doing today, sir?

[0:32]  I am well. How are you?

[0:34]  I'm doing amazing. I am a uh every time someone comes on and they have a headset and a microphone, I can tell they've done this, man. And the crowd, people that are watching must know that you've done this. If you could just kind of sell us, are you a pro at this? You've done this before.

[0:48]  I do have a podcast called the Get to Know OCD podcast. So, yes, I have definitely done this. In fact, we had a company come and build this little studio. And so I've got lights. I've got cameras behind over there that we use for our podcast. We've got this one and an HD camera and everything. So yeah, I uh I've had a little experience in in this world

[1:09]  with all this. You're not just a podcaster. If you could just let the people know exactly what else you do.

[1:14]  Sure. I'm the chief clinical officer for a company called NOCD. We are an online platform for the treatment of OCD and related conditions. And we do evidence-based treatment for those conditions. So for OCD, it's exposure and response prevention therapy. For body focused repetitive behaviors like hair pulling or skinpicking, we do habit reversal training. There's CBT for hoarding and all sorts of other conditions that we work with too.

[1:42]  I'm always intrigued and people are watching intrigued on the why. How did we get here? How do you get to that space? Well, in terms of the NOC CD space, you get there by when the CEO of NOCD was uh was just starting off on getting the app going. He came to Chicago. This was back in I think 2016 to the International OCD Foundation conference. And as he tells the story, he had a little booth in the back and not many people were speaking to him and he was going around to treatment programs and they would be like, "Yeah, okay. You're a young kid, you know, good luck with that." And he said only one person really spoke to him and that was me and we had a great chat. And then I even invited him out to the hospital that I worked at because we had a virtual reality program for helping people who had substance abuse and and helping veterans with PTSD. And I showed him that and I showed him really what technology could do in the mental health space and he invited me to become a scientific adviser for NOCD at that point. And then a couple of years later when there was an opening for a chief clinical officer. Uh I was at a point in my life where I didn't want to be driving three hours a day anymore to go to the hospital that I worked at. And so I thought this is an opportunity and I took it and I went from helping about 30 to 40 people a day at a hospital setting to helping thousands and thousands of people a day doing

[3:11]  Wow. And how long how long have you been with uh no OCD now?

[3:14]  No OCD has been six years next month actually that I will be here.

[3:20]  Wow. Who would have known, right? We're just really talking about opportunities and showing up never knowing what's on the other side. like I didn't know this story. We were literally just talking about it and I know that yeah, you just showed up, man.

[3:31]  He just showed up as well, right? That one person. It takes one person.

[3:34]  It takes one person and one good opportunity. So when you have those opportunities, sometimes you might feel like, oh, I don't know if I want to leave my friends or my family or spend the money to do this, but boy, sometimes those things really turn out well. So yeah.

[3:47]  And I can imagine you have a lot of opportunities throughout life. Is this that really gamecher one that took you from, you know, from inside a little office to now being able to do so much more at a higher level?

[3:58]  Definitely. Yeah, it it is because when I I loved the hospital work and I loved the really intensive work that I did with people. It was very fulfilling and fun to do. But when this opportunity came up and I could see that we could go really national and potentially global in the work and help to bring recognition to a condition that a lot of people think they know but they don't actually know. You know how many times have you heard people say I'm so OCD when it's because they like to close the door twice to make sure it's locked or something like that, right? It just

[4:35]  so the the fact that I get to have a really uh global platform that helps to educate people on what OCD is and how difficult of a condition it is to live with uh is very fulfilling.

[4:49]  If we can kind of educate maybe those that may not know, right? They thought they known um but don't know the insights of it all. OCD, what where does it come from? What it stems from? What does it look like?

[5:00]  It's two things. It's obsessions which are thoughts or images or urges that people experience and they find them to be really difficult. They're egodistonic we would say as in they kind of go against your own values or morals or principles potentially. They're unwanted. They can be labeled as intrusive. And what happens is there's this kind of fight, flight or freeze reaction to these things. And so you want to do whatever you can to try to get rid of it as quickly as possible. So you'll do a compulsion. And a compulsion is a behavioral or mental act that you do to try to neutralize whatever that obsession is. Now many people are familiar with OCD in terms of what you see in movies. You know, like washing your hands a lot or checking the doors and making sure the stove's off or maybe arranging the knives and the forks so that they're at perfect angles. But what people also don't realize is that it's going to attack anything that's really important to you. So let's say you love to go out for a drive. OCD will be like, "Well, that pothole you just ran over, what if what if it was actually a child? Maybe you should drive back around the block to see if there's a dead body because you wouldn't want it just laying in the middle of the road." Or,

[6:11]  you know, your arm moved toward that family when you were walking past them in the mall. Were you trying to steal one of their children and molest them and then return them before they knew that it was it was happening? That's OCD, too. So, take take anything to you that's important.

[6:27]  Maybe you're a faithful person. Well, maybe you said that prayer slightly wrong and now you're going to live in an eternity that you don't want to live in all because what if your god's actually a vengeful God, right? And so, maybe you just better say that prayer, right? And you might spend four hours saying that prayer over and over again until it feels just right. And only then can you move forward because you just want to make sure that you don't spend eternity in a place you don't want to be.

[6:55]  Wow, that's very intense. So, do you think that people say that they're OCD when they're really not OCD just because

[7:01]  every day? Every day I hear the first thing that happens when I tell people what I do, they say, "Oh, I have a little OCD." And and so I I always take that opportunity to correct people. And I also remember during COVID hearing a newscast once they were actually in a backyard of one of the newscasters and they were all six feet apart and one of the newscasters said to another one, "Wouldn't it be great if we all just had a little OCD and maybe that would help us get through the pandemic?" And I thought, "What other mental health condition do we recommend to people to have to improve their lives?"

[7:33]  Yeah. You know, imagine this, and I hate this example, but I'm going to say it, but I just know that I don't like it. Imagine if I walked into a room full of people who were struggling with weight issues, and I said, "Have you considered a little anorexia?" How does that feel when I say that?

[7:53]  I All eyes are on you at that point. Not for the good reasons.

[7:57]  Not for good reasons.

[7:58]  Exactly. And that's how people with OCD feel when they hear this. Because what it does is it says to people with OCD, well, we all have it. It's not a big deal. I don't know why you're having an issue with it. Everybody has a little OCD. So why why is this a problem for you? Just knock it off. I'm I'm able to deal with it. Why can't you? And they don't realize that at one point the World Health Organization has labeled OCD as one of the top 10 most disabling conditions anybody could ever have. So, what does it look like when someone understands that they have OCD and they're trying to help themselves?

[8:30]  Well, very often there's some mistakes made by people with OCD and their families. But I don't say that in a pjorative way because I I know that people are trying to do the best that they possibly can. But the mistakes that are often made are all right, if I just do more of these compulsions, then I'm going to be okay. or if I help my loved one who has OCD do the compulsions, then things will be okay. And all that does is it strengthens the compulsions and it makes things worse. So, as odd as this will sound, the very thing that you want people to do is the opposite of what their OCD tells them to do because if you do what OCD tells you to do, it just makes it stronger. It's like feeding the beast, right? OCD eats compulsions for breakfast, lunch, and dinner. And the only way to starve OCD out is to not do more compulsions. A lot of people might assume, well, don't you want people to get rid of the thoughts or the images or the urges? I don't know how to do that, right? I I have no idea how to stop people from thinking something. I In fact, I I keep my little pink elephant here at my desk at all times. It's always right there just in front of me. I just see it just popped right up. If If I told you, don't think of this pink elephant, what would you think of?

[9:44]  The pink elephant,

[9:45]  of course. Yes. So, imagine trying to tell someone with OCD, "Well, just stop thinking about that. Don't don't think those things anymore. Just get it out of your head." Well, the more you try not to think of something, the more you actually think of it. So, what if the opposite was true? Maybe, just maybe, if you purposely think of something, it'll eventually fade away. And that's what happens, right? If I told you don't I or if I told you only think of what you want for dinner tonight. All right? Just just picture it in your head only. and and let me know when you have what you want for dinner tonight. All right. Now, don't think about if one of your children just fell down the stairs or if your spouse might have just been in a car accident or if uh there could be a fire at your house. Don't think of any of those things. Just think about your dinner. It's pretty hard to think about dinner now, isn't it?

[10:33]  Yeah, man. Especially when the family just left. Wait a minute. Did you say car accident?

[10:37]  Yeah. Yeah. You hate me right now, don't you? Yeah. Right. But isn't it interesting that you can you think that you can think about something that you want to, right? But all it takes is yeah, but don't think about this and boom, there it is. And and we go toward that. So my job is to help people recognize that the goal isn't to stop thinking about something. The goal is to recognize that it doesn't matter what we think about, right? We can just live with whatever our thoughts and our images and our urges are and our impulses and all those different things and we can just allow them to be there and we don't have to neutralize them

[11:18]  even if they really seem to attack something important to us. We can just let it go. If the Heart and Hustle podcast has ever sparked any idea or made you think differently, do us a favor. Make sure to guys share this, post it on LinkedIn or even text that nonprofit friend that you just have. Whatever works. This is what keeps the conversation going and allows us to just grow this community together. Seriously, we appreciate you. I'm not going to lie to you actually and I hope a lot of people learn something new about OCD today because it is one of those terms that I hear very common and you know now be a little bit more um mindful of saying something along the sides of OCD realizing that people are really suffering from this

[12:00]  and I want to take people even further back ma'am because it's not something that you just been doing for the last decade or when you partner up with um this gentleman you met at a convention um it started at 13 years old man you decided to become a psychologist and not so many People at that age are talking about psychologists. We're talking about people thinking baseball players, soccer players, uh, uh, football players, whatever, right? They want to be athletes. They want to be they want to be movie stars.

[12:24]  Why were you already thinking psychologists?

[12:27]  You know, there were some unfortunate instances in grade school of some bullying that had happened that were really tough. And there was even a point where I even wondered, do I even want to live anymore? Right? Do I if if this is the way the world is going to be, do I want to be here anymore? And that was in like the middle of 8th grade. And I thought, okay, I'm going to high school next year. It gives me a chance to reset and to do something different. And if I can do that, right, if I can I I gave myself a year. I said, I'll give myself a year. I can come back to this thought about not wanting to be here anymore in a year from now. So, uh, I went to high school. I I did a very nerdy thing, but it was wonderful. I joined band, which was one of my favorite things I've ever done in my life. [laughter]

[13:17]  I did I did chorus and I think it was like I I always even think I was doing that. So,

[13:21]  yeah, I but it turned out to be one of the best things ever. The confidence that I built learning how to play an in I'd never played an instrument in my life until I went to high school and got

[13:31]  what instrument?

[13:32]  Started with the baritone and then went to the trombone. So, and I was

[13:35]  I'll tell you a funny story. Not that I like to say the story. So, I wanted to be in band. And I'll let you finish just a bit. I wanted to be in band. Uh, my sister obviously went to high school before me. So, when it was my turn, my mom wasn't going to go buy another instrument. She says, "You're going to take on your sister's instrument." What What do you think I was playing?

[13:52]  Well, if we go statistically, it was the clarinet or the flute.

[13:56]  That was it. I was playing the [laughter] clarinet. And I I hated it so much u that I got kicked out of band actually because when I was supposed to be practicing, I was in the locker room just acting a fool. This is like middle school days. So that's how I ended up in chorus, by the way. But you know, clarinet was my thing. Not that I ever learned how to do it. If I could actually go and learn an instrument, drum and piano. I would love to go learn those. But you know, one day maybe.

[14:18]  One day. Hey, there's always there's future opportunities for you, right?

[14:22]  Go ahead, Dr. Patrick. So you're in band.

[14:24]  Yeah. One of the best things ever for you.

[14:26]  I I developed this confidence in myself and I met some great friends. you know, I I had I had two really good friends from grade school, but otherwise I I just didn't feel that connected. Um, but I had met some great friends then when I went to high school and just formed this group and it was like, okay, this is what I'm going to do. And then here's my funny story of high school. So, I call call waiting was invented when I was in high school. [laughter]

[14:55]  Just it didn't always exist now.

[14:58]  Yeah. And cuz phones were still on a wire, right? You were you still had a cord, everything. Yeah. When I was in high school. So, um, and the call waiting was important because somehow I had talked to one person one time and they felt that I was helpful and then my number got passed around to other people. And so I I was like Lucy, five cents, please Charlie Brown stuff and doing therapy when I was, you know, 15, four, 16 years old. And my dad would be leaving from work and it was always busy whenever he tried to call and because he'd want to check with my mom, do you need anything from the store? So when call waiting came out, he sat me down. He said, "If you don't click over, I'm ending your therapy practice. [laughter] It's done." And I was like, "All right, all right. I'll click. I promise I'll click over.

[15:47]  [laughter]

[15:48]  So, but uh even at that age, I just I really enjoyed talking to people, learning about them, helping them. Uh I helped people stop suicides when I was a teenager and I just felt like this is what I should do for the rest of my life and it it is it is what I've done.

[16:11]  It is very one cool that you find your passion and purpose so early on, right? People don't find that on late to later on in life. Very early on, you realize it wasn't about a paycheck. It was about passion, purpose, led you down this road that you're in today. But I also think how important it was that you mentioning the mental health where you were thinking at, right? We talk about bully now and I think bully more than ever is is such a word that we we utilize, but it's always been a thing and we weren't just talking about it. Talk about mental health. You were this middle school student talking about ending your life, right? myself. I remember being middle school, high school, the sexual abuse happened, the adoption. Now, I didn't get bullied, but there was those times in my mind, right? Sure. Like

[16:51]  mental health, it's a it's a word that we weren't using. How do you think now after [laughter] pandemic time, I feel like now we're talking about mental health and and we're very open about it. Do you think that we're in a better place? Are we seeing a upside because we're more

[17:05]  conversational about it?

[17:07]  I think we are getting there. Absolutely. And I'm excited too because therapy is so much more accessible to people now, right? Before if you had something where you needed a specialist, you likely had to live in a very large city in order to find a person to get that.

[17:26]  And now due to like what we've done with no CD, you just need an internet connection and you could be meeting with a therapist. The other piece is there's a lot of things you have to take a look at for cost, right? Uh many of those specialists that were in those large cities didn't take insurance and they would charge hundreds of dollars for a session. And that really places them into maybe 10% of the population that could work with them. And now one of the things that we do is we continuously try to get more and more insurance coverage. So we can see over 180 million covered lives right now in the US and we're continuing to try to grow that. So it's accessibility not just from a finding a therapist but it's also accessibility for the cost of therapy too. And both of those things are what I think is important to do in the world to make sure that people don't needlessly suffer.

[18:24]  What does it look like this this application? Is it like very tellaalthdriven um finding you know matching a patient?

[18:32]  Yeah. Yeah. You can go online to nocd.com and you could see all of our therapists. You can pick whatever state you're in and you can drill down to see the therapist and you can even see the insurance that they take so you know that they're covered. You can see their profile and then you can make a free 15minute call with our team and they will set you up with that therapist. Get your first session or two set up with them. And our goal in those first two sessions is first foremost always build good rapport, right? Because it you got to create a great relationship with somebody for them to be open and honest about some of their deepest darkest secrets that they might feel like they're holding.

[19:10]  And we want to be sure that they're safe. So we always do, you know, just a support plan to be sure that they know who can they reach out to in times of stress or something. We we wouldn't want anyone ever doing something rash in in in a situation where they might get stressed. And we want to help get uh an actual diagnosis so people really understand what's going on and know that we have a treatment protocol that's available for them. So those are really important things to do to just get people on the road to recovery that they need to be on instead of sitting in silence and suffering.

[19:45]  I love that. I actually had a my only one. Well, I actually had two. So, I'm g tell you my good one. My good session with my mental health with a psychiatrist. So, I went there and kind of what you mentioned, man, is that those deep darkest secrets. I went there like a faucet. Like, I didn't know what I was going into, but uh life was happening. My wife was supposed to go, she was going through postpartum. I broke down. Um just kind of emotional. This is especially after like having my first child. Obviously, we talked about adoption. all these feelings are starting to come back

[20:16]  and um I went and I remember just having like this faucet and I'm sitting here at some points maybe almost cry but then I'm laughing and she made it so easy that at the end of it it was just like wow this is so good and all she did was just really ask questions in ways that maybe no one asked me before allowing me to think a little differently

[20:34]  but um you know when we think about giving away those deep darkest secrets you're talking about you're this 13-year-old young kid I can imagine you were listening already to some deep dark secrets, right, from a 13-year-old.

[20:47]  Um, people are afraid and I think it's really what helps someone gets from, hey, I need help to, man, I got the help. You know, so many people are scared though to have those conversations. What do you tell to those people that that know it, that they know that there's assistance needed, but they're afraid to have conversation?

[21:06]  Uh, I don't mind telling my own story, you know, about what brought me into this situation, right? I mean, I went I had a kid from my class who uh obviously now I look back and I'm sure had their own kind of concerns going on. Uh I won't speculate, but uh you know, who found me one day and just just beat the out of me and then had gone that day to like an army surplus store. And so he had a small canister of tear gas which he just poured in my face, you know, and totally unprovoked. uh just was out throwing a football with some other people and then this thing happened, you know, and and and that kind of just changed my world view, you know, and so when people come in now and and talk about I mean this terrible thing has happened or I've had this thought that's awful or horrible. Uh, you know, I I'll say to them, you could live with that just in your head for the rest of your life, or you could take a risk and see if maybe somebody might be able to help you to deal with that. And I always encourage people to take that second opportunity because I didn't have that first opportunity. You know, they're really, it's not like we talked a lot about therapy back when I was I'm in my 50s, you know, that that wasn't really around. And and I was even back then unfortunately scared to even tell anybody that it really it had happened, right? Because what did it mean about me as a as a man, you know, and and all the [laughter] just these stupid things. I look back now and think I could have handled it in such better ways, but I was scared and I was and I I I didn't make the best choices of what I could have done in the future. And and so I think that's what propelled me to help other people too is to decide I wasn't going to let people suffer the way that I did. And so when people come in now and they're scared to talk about something, I talk about the relief to be able to be open and to be honest and to have an opportunity to share something that's totally confidential. It doesn't leave this space and um you can really get some coaching. Uh there's others who maybe are are are kind of tough and they're like, "Well, I don't I don't know why I need help." And I'll say, "Do you like sports?" And they're like, "Yeah, I love sports." Okay, great. Uh what does the highest paid player on the team you love make? Oh, interesting. Okay. And do they have a coach? Why? Why do they still have a coach?

[23:39]  Yeah.

[23:39]  Because the coach will still offer options and opportunities for things to look at in a different way. So, if you don't like this idea of therapy, then fine. I'm your coach. you're on my team and I'm going to offer you opportunities to look at life in a little different way and to run some plays differently than you've been running them so far. And maybe the new plays you run will actually help you to be more successful than you are.

[24:04]  That's cuz you're good, man. You've been doing this for years. That That's why it comes easy. Like that is truly how people have to be spoken to,

[24:11]  you know? Like they got to That's why I always say when it goes to therapy, it's like dating. find the one because not everyone's going to come at it from that perspective.

[24:20]  Absolutely.

[24:21]  When you do find someone that can come at it from that perspective, it's amazing.

[24:25]  I also want to talk about just your life experiences. First of all, appreciate you sharing.

[24:29]  Um, and that's why I share as well because I feel that it allows other people to feel a little bit more at a even level, you know, playing field like, oh, okay, I I you can share that. I'm more willing to share this. And I've seen that so many times. I'm pretty sure you as well once you start to share your stories. But I also think man like when life be lifing we can really take things out of that and say why why did I go through this the wise right and we look back at it and like man if I didn't go through this would I be who I am today and and Dr. Patrick, you know, as unfortunate as it was at those moments, man, look where you're at today, years, decades later, really helping others, you know, feel seen, feel heard, never having to go through those moments, really being for someone else that you wish you had possibly. I can only imagine, right?

[25:15]  Yeah. It's great, you know, and it it drives me to this day to continue to do what I do. And um you know I remember when I was on my postoc and I was learning this therapy. I was about a week into doing it and I thought I think this is what I'm going to do for the rest of my life. I finally found a style of therapy and treatment that fit my personality. You know I'm a little sarcastic. I like a lot of humor and everything and I could bring my personality and that into the work that I do and still help affect great change in people's lives. and uh and and and I will do it until I retire.

[25:54]  What were you trying to solve when you joined NOCD as a CCO? You think

[26:00]  there were a couple of things that were going on there? There was number one a drive that I saw in Steven, our CEO, to really change the way mental health is delivered in the in the world. And I thought, you know, once in a while you meet people or you see people, you hear people uh on TV, you know, you've got all the big people you see sometimes, the visionaries and and he he seemed like a visionary in a way of what he thought about healthcare and the way that he wanted, you know, he got into Forbes 30 under 30 even with this idea of doing this and everything. So I was really excited by that and and I liked the passion and there was also a personal side too because as I had said earlier I was driving three hours a day but my wife was dying of cancer at that same time and there was an opportunity to be able to be more at home and be more helpful to her and help coordinate things better because every time I went away to work every day I had to make sure that if there was an appointment who could take her to the appointment cuz I was working and I only had so many days off and everything. But I was able to sit down with Stephen and say, "Listen, you know, here's what's going on in my life and here's here's what you'll get from me and I will give you everything." But there are times that like I'll be in the car doing a meeting or in the waiting room of a hospital or sitting at a restaurant booth or something because I have to take her to her appointments and chemo and radiations and all of those things too. And so it was a mutual yes, we're going to do that together. And uh so they were very helpful to me to be able to spend the last few years of her life uh more at home and not so far away. And in return, I I kept my promise and I just whatever we needed to do, we did to get this to grow and grow. And when I joined, we had 18 therapists and today we've got over 800 therapists at NOCD. So it's

[28:01]  it's really great. Um, one, I mentioned it offline, but for people to know, sorry for for the loss of of your wife. And um,

[28:09]  when you think about the sacrifices you made, the risk that you were you were taking as well, right, from going and something that was probably comfortable to saying, "Hey, I'm I'm I'm willing to play alongside with you. I see the vision. Let's do this together." Um, what did it mean for the mission to be recognized by Forbes 30 sturdy and the dirty? I mean that was that was great that people were seeing that what we were doing wasn't just some weird idea right and it wasn't just a pipe dream or something like that. it gave a lot of legitimacy to the fact that we were trying to be an agent of change, right? And so as we've gone through uh our growth and it's been amazing every day to see the dedication of the team that I get to work with who constantly are trying to push the envelope or to ask questions. You know, one of our values at work is egoless questioning. And so, we're always asking questions of each other about, well, but why does it have to be done that way, right? And how can we come up with a different way to do it that will work and is, you know, within the bounds of the way you have to do things done, but still is a new view on it as well. And and that's always exciting to see what we can do to grow and give more people opportunity for health and care. And what do those goals look like when you talk about growth? Let's talk [snorts] about the next uh five years. I always like to see if we can kind of speak into existence. What does that look like for you?

[29:40]  Well, uh we we like to say we our our goal is to help solve the mental health crisis in the United States. Right now, that doesn't mean that there won't be mental health issues, but what it does what we feel that means is that people will have access to evidence-based care, know where to get it, and know how to get it. and there will be delivery systems that will be very efficient in providing it. And so that's what our goal is and we're starting that with obsessivecompulsive disorder and related conditions and we'll see where we grow it from there. But uh we continuously are trying to uh you know just figure out new ways to make it happen. Yeah. One of my favorite examples is we were using electronic health records that were kind of out of the box, right? That we were paying subscriptions for, but they were never quite doing everything that we wanted them to do. One of them would only schedule in central time zone, but we had people in all the time. So then we'd have to be like, "Okay, so that's two, but that's central. So remember that's 12 your time, but but I'm but I'm on the east." And it was it was a nightmare. and and I remember and and a group of us, we were here in my basement and we made a phone call to this company and they said, "Well, it's going to take us about a year to do it." And our chief technical officer, he said,

[31:01]  "I'll have it done in two weeks." And we built an electronic health record in two weeks for ourselves, literally in this basement with me sitting here at my laptop. And they'd build something, they'd say, "Try it." And I would try to break it, right? And I'd be, "Ah, I cracked it." then they'd be, "Okay, what what happened?" And they'd go back and they'd be like, you know, so we went from having to conform to other people to say, "No, we're not doing that anymore. We're done with that. We're going to build something that's right and that's good and that actually works for us and for what we see is needed in the mental health community." And that's what we did. So that's the kind of stuff we do. I mean you're you're in the space of you were you know kind of almost in corporate I would say for a very long time you get into a startup were you always in a you

[31:52]  I was in hospitals for almost all of my life my career was almost always in hospitals yeah

[31:57]  so when you got became like I would say you became an entrepreneur right you started you started this with the startup what is your thoughts on it man after being in that space for so long and then coming here how did it feel for you

[32:08]  we joke that uh trying to get something changed in a hospital is like trying to move an aircraft carrier or you're down a side street, right? [laughter] But

[32:17]  working at a startup, you're you're on a speedboat and it can do 90° turns in a second. And so that's what was just amazing was I didn't have all the red tape and stuff that that, you know, I could just I could do things faster and quicker and you didn't have to pass it through 12 levels of committees to get an okay to do something. It would be like, "Yeah, that sounds good. Why don't we work that?" and and so it's been really great and I think why we've been able to expand so much is that we've tried to not have all those layers of approvals and and reviews and everything like that. I mean we definitely do review things and make sure they work but but it's not redundant so much like you have it very large corporations. You know

[33:04]  what the story you shared of how they said oh we'll get it done in a year. That is your typical healthc care enter right. Oh it would take us a year two years to roll out and you're like wait a minute I don't have that time.

[33:14]  I don't have a year.

[33:15]  Yeah we got to get it going today you know. So that it really goes show night and day. It would work for healthcare. Oh a year. Okay that that works for us. But

[33:23]  so yeah sometimes having to just build it. That's the exciting part man when you got to just pivot when you got to you know improvise. That's fun to me. Building a business. It's it's hard, but it's fun. And when things are going good, it's even better, right?

[33:38]  Absolutely.

[33:39]  Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. And

[33:41]  you know that it is fun. There there are days, you know, when we're up at midnight, 1 in the morning just trying to still figure something out that it's like, God, I just I'm tired. But it's still fun in the end, and that's what counts.

[33:56]  Mhm.

[33:57]  It's yours at the end. It's your baby at the end of the day. I always say, you know, working when people go and work and and no disrespect to corporate, that's just how entrepreneurship is not for everybody to be quite frank,

[34:07]  but um I rather stress on my own things than stressing about somebody else's problems. Not that I don't like people, but

[34:15]  a lot of times you got to be a little selfish. I mean, at the end of the day, you're still helping people, right? I'm still helping people.

[34:20]  Um and it's what what allows us to bring what brings peace to our lives, you know? And it goes back to that passion and purpose, man. You always had it and now you're really in it because you build in something even bigger than the to me the health care system.

[34:32]  Sure. And it's not for everyone, right? I mean I there are people who like to clock in and clock out and then their time is their time and and that's great. I I totally respect that, right? Uh there are days I'm jealous of that. [laughter] Actually,

[34:46]  I agree. I tell my wife sometimes want to be non-pob and sit on the couch and watch TV. I don't know that life.

[34:52]  Yeah. uh you know and and for some people that's best for their family and and just what they want and good for you right that's that's wonderful for for me uh I have I have enjoyed really building this and watching this grow right I I don't have children so I've I've watched this grow instead and and seen what it's like to really nurture something into an amazing existence. And that's what's really cool.

[35:26]  And you guys are just getting started. Listen, we as we wrap uh start wrap this up, where can people start to find more information, not just about what you guys are doing with NOCD, but even you are you on LinkedIn? Can they they find some more information on what you guys are doing over there?

[35:39]  Yeah, I I'm on you can find me on LinkedIn, but the the biggest my biggest presence is through NOCD. So, it's nocd.com and we have our NOCD YouTube channel. So you can watch the get to know OCD podcast there. I also do a webinar every Wednesday night and we record it and it goes out there and it's just me answering questions about OCD from all over the world for an hour every week. So people literally just get in and start just throwing questions in the scroll and I just kind of one after the other. Here's here here. It's I never read them ahead of time. They're not scripted or anything. I don't know what they're going to be and we just kind of see what we get. So, uh, I'm I'm very much on the YouTubes [laughter] and, you know,

[36:25]  not on Tik Tok. I think that really that that whole

[36:27]  no CDs on the on Tik Tok for sure. Yes.

[36:30]  Now, that that going live though, answering questions, man, I think I can work on uh on Tik Tok as well, man.

[36:34]  We've done Reddit also, ask me anything and uh, you know, Instagram. So,

[36:40]  you you on the social, huh? You you got social media downpack, Dr. Patrick.

[36:44]  Yeah, we've got a great team. I I'll tell you, they are they are absolutely wonderful. and

[36:49]  and you mentioned some guests earlier that you guys you recently had on your podcast. I don't know if it's already airing or went to air.

[36:55]  Yeah, our Howie Mandel uh interview. We've got a few with him. John Green, the author, young adult author. We've we've got some things out with him and some more coming. Uh there's some great comedians like that we've had that are on there too. Maria Bamford and and uh Bridget Magcguire and Sean Patton. And so just there's some there's some great stuff that that I'm really proud of that's out there where

[37:20]  people have been open about what it's like to live with OCD, but to come out on the other side of it. Also,

[37:26]  listen, if you guys have not tuned in, make sure you guys go ahead and tune in. But I'll leave you with this blind question before we depart in the hot seat.

[37:33]  If the 13-year-old who decided to become a psychologist could hear you now, what would you want that kid to know about the work he ended up doing? Uh, I would say it was worth it.

[37:47]  Worth those late night uh, therapy calls you were having at 13.

[37:50]  All of it, right? And and even those nights of sitting around trying to debate, you know, what do I want to do with life? Do do I want to be here? You know, just the challenges that that that kid had. Uh, it it was worth it.

[38:05]  Love it.

[38:05]  And you can actually speak to someone that may be in those shoes at the moment. What do you say to them? I would say uh there's always a door to open even if it feels like it's locked, right?

[38:22]  There's

[38:23]  there's a band I love, the band Rush, right? And they have a song called The Pass and uh there's there's a line that I love in that and it's about it's a song about uh suicide actually and it and it says, "All of us do time in the darkness. The dreamers turn to look at the stars. All of us do time in the gutter, but dreamers turn to look at the cars. Turn around and walk the razor's edge. Don't let your don't turn your back and slam the door on me. And I love that line. I always keep that in my head, you know, just uh don't slam the door, keep it open.

[38:57]  Dr. Patrick, I truly appreciate this conversation we've had. Um I know we can definitely go longer. I'm super excited for what you guys are doing with NOCD. Um no CD.com. If you guys haven't checked that out, make sure you guys check that out. Check out the podcast. Um, connect with him on LinkedIn. These are the conversations we love to have here on the Heart and Hustle Podcast because without people like him, all right, we're not having good conversations. So, Dr. Patrick, I thank you. My name's Ephra. This is Dr. Patrick. Make sure you guys continue to follow, subscribe, and share. And I'll catch you on the next one later. Thanks a friend.