The Leadership Lessons Behind Meals on Wheels’ Staten Island Expansion with Joseph Tornello

[0:00]  We're sending out the right nutrition, just not just two meals. One thing that stays in my mind, I use as example one morning I was, this is going back 15 years ago when I first started here sitting with the chef and uh one of the volunteers came in and said, "I'm picking up my food and why is it Mrs. So and so on my route." And he said to her, "She passed away last night." And the volunteers started to cry uncontrollably. I've been delivering to her for years. I always look forward to seeing her and and seeing how she's doing. It's those relationships that are so important. It it communicates to the recipient the sense of I'm not alone.

[0:33]  Somebody who cares about me is seeing me every day. Uh and um that that's just uh just as important if not more important than the food. Sadly, when our nurses do intakes, the sad term that you're finding in our field now are elder orphans. Can you imagine be somebody being 85 years old, you're doing an intake, who is your emergency contact?

[0:53]  I'm sorry, my husband's deceased. My siblings are gone. I have a child across the country. I No, I'm alone. Elder orphans. What a sad term to even think about. Welcome back to another episode of the Heart and Hustle Podcast. Do you ever meet someone who doesn't just talk community but truly lives it? Today's guest turned meals into a movement and he's been doing it for decades. Joe, welcome to the Heart and Hustle podcast.

[1:35]  Before we get into this mission, I do got to ask, what drives someone to continue to serve the community for over 40 years without feeling burnt out? Well, it's it's this was my career choice, I suppose. Uh uh going back to my roots, but uh you know, going through my youth and into college, uh I had decided pretty much I I wanted to be involved in human services. Uh and uh I suppose my roots are are part of that. I I grew up uh on Staten Island in New York City in a uh low-income housing project. Uh, and I I often will say uh truthfully that I would not trade growing up where I grew up in that environment for nothing. Not from the fanciest neighborhood in the burrow or

[2:23]  in the city. Uh, you know, the housing projects were built post World War II for our young working families. And my father was uh uh during the earlier part of his his his life a nurses aid at C View Hospital back then, which was the largest tuberculosis hospital in the country. And actually a lot of medications were tried out there until a cure for tuberculosis was found in 1951 uh which is when he had to retire because of his vision was so poor. So um uh but my friends parents were working families either at C view or were bus drivers or uh mechanics. Uh these were young working families and as a result that that project was filled with young people. We had a great parish at St.

[3:07]  Michaels. We had a great public school, PS44. Uh we had a great park there where we played baseball. We had woods that stretched for a couple of miles as if we were out in the country somewhere as opposed to in New York City. So uh and my neighborhood was mixed. We we were of all backgrounds and that I think I also uh uh credit to uh uh to to that wonderful neighborhood. My my friends were uh Latino, they were African-American, they were Polish, and uh even an Italian friend like myself and uh Italian background. Uh even uh there was a friend that was Jewish, a friend that was we were all mixed and we all played ball together. We all went to school together. Uh we went to our local junior high together. So I grew up with with with a crowd of friends in a

[3:55]  neighborhood where uh we were not wealthy. None of us ever went away on vacations, but we had uh out in front of my apartment building, all the parents and all the kids were out every night in the summer. We were all together out there together, parents and kids and playing and whatever. It's not like that no more, Joe. And you don't see parents outside with their kids playing around. Joe, large bench in the front. We'd be playing playing ball.

[4:20]  Uh the biggest trouble I got into was climbing a tree in front of the house. and uh uh but um and a great a great older brother. My both my parents were disabled too. They they got married older. Sometimes I say thank God they met each other. My brother and I wouldn't be here. But uh my mother had arthritis of the spine and and could not walk in into her later years. My father was legally blind. He only worked at CU until they closed because he knew his job as a nurse's aid. And once they closed, they knew that he could not get another job. So he went on social security disability. So that's how we that was our income growing I was just a kid. Uh, and they were both frail and old. They but they complimented each other. My father's my mother was his eyes. My father was her strength. I call them walking love. That's the kind of people that they were. And uh, so and they were older. So as I I suppose I

[5:09]  progressed in my career, my interest was to work with older adults in our community of Staten Island. This is home. This is where I was. I'm going to be 75 in a couple of months. This has been home. Oh man, you look good. You look good. Joe, I really want to know. I'm not from New York. A lot of people um probably watching not from New York, but the House and Projects back in the days, man. I mean, you hear it, you see it in movies. What did that environment really teach you that no textbook ever could? What the envir what was the environment like or uh Yeah.

[5:38]  Yeah. the projects being there. What did that environment teach you? Well, yeah. to people can live together, live close together and share an identity, share uh life and not not feel any regret in terms of uh uh actually the the plus of it was for me as a young person, my my brother and I as young people, there was a lot of other kids our age, a lot of other uh uh you know, we and we had a strong parish and a strong public school where we all did things together. And so, uh, whether it was sports, whether it was music and and whether it was dances in the church or whatever, we all did stuff together. And so, for for young people, that was great. For for the adults, they all knew each other, too. They all worked together. We um we didn't have a car in the house. Whenever my cousins had parties, one of them had to come and pick us up. But we all were

[6:25]  there. That was our neighborhood. Uh uh we we also as young kids we also looked up to that young cop on the top floor had a motorcycle and then we were all like taken by that. I um very interesting you know time that you were also kind of growing up if I not if I ever remember correctly it was during the Vietnam and the civil rights movement. Was there like a particular moment or story that made you say I really got to be a part of the change? I mean, you've been a part of the change for so many years, but was there something during that time that also kind of sparked something? Well, in college, you know, I went to Brooklyn College, City University um and uh with a region scholarship. It cost $500 a year. I mean, this was affordable public education, but good education. City University was always highly recommend rated back in those days. But um yeah, I worked during the years in co I not

[7:14]  worked, I'm sorry. I studied at Brooklyn College. I majored in in sociology and psych. Um, but what was going on on the campus during those years, and I'm talking about, uh, into the middle late60s, uh, civil rights was a big thing. I I have books up in my attic somewhere from the the liberation library. There were books that were out on a bookshelf on the campus. Uh, we were advocating for civil rights. We were also protesting Vietnam War. Uh, uh, my brother, my best friend both had been drafted. They were both in Vietnam, worried about whether they were going to come back alive or not. But uh we also felt during those years as part of our school college community that uh Vietnam wasn't right. We needed to get out of there and end that. And uh civil rights still need a lot lot to happen. We're talking about late60s. And so uh that also, you know, influenced my my

[8:03]  decision. By the time I'm graduating college, I wanted to work in human services. I wanted to work as a social worker. That was a career choice I made. Was natural. Wasn't something I had to uh ponder over. if you can actually go back and whisper uh something into that young 20-year-old college Joe when you first got into this line of work, right? What would you actually say to Joe? Wow. To the 20-year-old, I would say, look, you're you're uh at the beginning, it wasn't really the beginning, but it was there was a lot more that had to happen. There's still a lot more that has to happen. We're not there yet in terms of our our communities. We're not there yet in terms of of uh real true equality of people in our in our communities. We're not there yet in terms of uh recognition of the value of the service that our uh you're there. You're that's you're at

[8:52]  the beginning. That's what I would tell that 20-year-old. It's this has got to progress over the years to come. Um there's got a lot that has to be done in terms of uh even recognizing the value in our society of of uh those not fully appreciated professions. The teachers, social workers, nurses, home health aids, uh people working in in hospitals as nurses, aids and whatever those those important uh areas of work that support our society are not full fully appreciated in our society because we don't produce money. We cost money, but it's it's almost like what what uh what what our society needs is not fully appreciated. But we're still we're moving there. That's how I would tell that 20-year-old. It's going even 50 years later now. We're still working on it. Still working on it. But let's be

[9:40]  honest. I mean, the organization, if we talked about the organization, you're serving two meals a day. You have no waiting list, which is pretty wild for a nonprofit. How are you really pulling this off? Well, we we've got uh a great fundraising. We got a great board of directors who helps us in our fundraising efforts. Uh we have actually a little commercial. We have our annual dinner dance on April 9th at the Staten on Staten Island. Uh calling it this is the third year we're doing this. It's boots and blue jeans. Uh my wife two years ago made me buy cowboy boots and a cowboy hat and uh it's been a lot of fun and well attended and and uh we're just a few weeks away from that and uh that's our major fun. We do a couple of other things during the year also. to raise money for the organization and constantly researching for foundations for support and uh

[10:28]  uh whether it be the uh corporate community, banking communities, etc. Uh we just bought our new building. Thanks. We bought a building. Congrats. We've outgrown where we are right now. This building I'm in right now dates back to the 19 I suppose 20s or so. We built a kitchen here. Well, we bought this building in 1990s. We built a kitchen next door. Uh after that, we outgrew it.

[10:50]  This is a kitchen that was designed to handle a census of five to six hundred people. We're serving double that amount right now. So, we've been searching, we have been searching for several years for uh uh a site that would not only accommodate a kitchen that size, but uh also we have 29 delivery trucks and we have 49 volunteer routes every day. So the parking area that goes along with the building with that we're we're upgrade uh building has to accommodate all of that that traffic all of that the staff drive the staff cars volunteers trucks and sometimes 18 wheelers pulling in at five o'clock in the morning to deliver raw food product and uh things that we're going to be um you know for our meal preparation. Not sure if I answered your question there though. I think No, you did. You did. It's funny actually you

[11:37]  mentioned your event. We're doing an event in April as well. That's um Boots and Blossoms or Blossom B. Boots and blue jeans. Yeah. Yeah. So, it's funny that you kind of said what you said because we're kind someone said it to us and we're like boots and blossom. First of all, I don't own boots and what is a blossom? Like you want me to, you know?

[11:53]  So, I guess it must be that that time of spring and we're trying to put some spring into these uh these titles. It was different from our our other fun. One of the board members came up with the idea and uh actually I bought a brand new pair of blue jeans two years ago and I just save it every year for that this event. Yeah, I can't use any of my old blue jeans. They're all frayed on the bottom. But yeah, it's been a lot of fun and that's that's we do something in the fall, we do something in the spring. Fundraising has got to be important in what we do. And so uh we of course we're primarily funded by the department New York City Department for the Aging and uh and that um that you know that's originates on the federal level, the Older Americans Act going back to the 60s, Lynen Johnson. But by the way, Lynon Johnson, Older Americans Act, Civil Rights Act, Americans with Disabilities Act. I can go on and on with several other things happened

[12:40]  during administration. Nutrition programs weren't authorized until 1978. Title three nutrition programs under the Old Americans Act. We opened in 72. We opened with two meals a day, but that original board of directors said two meals a day and never a waiting list. When older American when Title 3 went into effect 1978, it was for one meal a day. So many programs throughout the country fulfill their requirement. The rest of the city does one meal a day.

[13:05]  They're fulfilling their requirement, but we've always been like out of the box. As of this year, though, the city is not funding our second meal. So, that's adding a uh it's adding a fundraising pressure on us. Uh we're doing it. We we're going we're halfway through this fiscal year and uh again our fundraising the support we get from our board and our local community it's important to be part of the community our not for-p profofit association our chamber of commerce our we we had a very active inter agency council for aging uh uh there's other community- based groups that where we function I I want to speak to your to your good leadership because you just mentioned how there's 250 plus volunteers we mentioned how there's no weight list um truly just high standards for the organization that you've been a part of for so long. How do you truly keep all that running without um maybe

[13:53]  you losing your mind or your mission? Like that's a lot to take care of. I tell you, we we're not a topheavy organization. By the way, you know, with that new building, when we want to interview somebody who wants to put we need a fence put up along the side of the property, I go out there's myself.

[14:08]  We have a tremendous chief operating officer, vice president, Rosanne Holt, and an excellent, uh, CFO, uh, John Fury, and an assistant CFO, Madura Nan Naniara. Uh, we don't have, we're not topheavy, but we we cover the areas that we need to cover, and we have great staff to work with. And, uh, our kitchens, our drivers are a lot of our our drivers work a five hour day. They come in at 8. They deliver all their meals. They're back with their trucks at 1. Many of them are retired civil service. We have retired cops, retired firemen, retired sanitation. Uh our kitchen staff are uh a lot of lot of younger people. Um uh um then, uh they come in five in the morning to work. A wonderful group of people and we get our job done. The chef is monitoring our our menu cycle with the city. Uh and uh you

[14:58]  know we have a a kitchen manager who oversees the coordination between the drivers and the the food coming out of the oven. The chef schedule that great staff. How can I answer that question other than great staff recruiting for volunteers? Our chief operating officer, she oversees those 49 routes. We have an assistant working with her. Uh most of our volunteers are retired older adults.

[15:21]  And I use my brother example. My brother who's going to be 80 next year has been volunteering since he retired. He's been volunteering 12 13 years now. He's got a Friday route. Every route has a volunteer for each day of the week. That's what makes it work. So, you know, uh the volunteer has just commits that one day and it takes about an hour and a half. We keep their roots short and within their neighborhoods. So, they pick up the food, they deliver the food and they're done. If if you had to have a volunteer five days a week, it's not volunteering. It's a job then. So all of those 49 volunteer routes has a different a different driver for each day of the week. I call my brother now by his route number. I don't call him by his name. Hey S11, how you doing? But um the uh volunteers are just one. We also partner with we're very proud of this

[16:09]  right now 12 special needs programs. They you know they have dayhab programs that they're required to provide meaningful activity for their consumers. These are under department of mental hygiene in New York statehood and uh they cover about 20% of our delivery routes and it's their staff in bands with their consumers on board their clients and they deliver meals for us and it's a wonderful partnership. They fulfill their need for dehab uh meaningful activity. They fulfill for us meaningful delivery of a large number of meals and not a pennies pass between us.

[16:39]  It's just a win-win that uh that we're very proud of and having that relationship with with those organizations. Hey, real quick. If you enjoying the podcast, we first want to say thank you and we also just want to give you a little insight of what we're up to at Francis. Some don't even realize that we're working with organizations to help them use AI to create that real human communication experiences where that's actually supporting your your families, those patients, or the entire community. We're actually creating tech that connects.

[17:09]  Check it out. Francis.ai. So cool to just see that your brother's also kind of on board. um supporting his little brother and his journey. His little brother is is doing the work and big brother wants to support little brother and he's still yeah volunteering his time. I love that. Well, he's t and he moved by the way within last year he moved all the way out to New Jersey about an hour away. He still comes in on Fridays to do his route and he always calls me. I'm on my way. I'll be there in five minutes. So I have to go downstairs and see him and watch him load. So that's howing works here. Do you have a story from the field like out um doing what you do that reminds you why you keep doing this every day?

[17:47]  Wow. A story from the field. Uh you know, I've I've met and gotten to know some of our individual meal recipients and some of their stories uh are amazing and enlightening. One one gentleman wanted me to visit him at home because of all the paintings he were doing was doing. He did so many paintings and uh he he he uh created a scrapbook of paintings that he wanted just to be recognized. He didn't want them published or anything. He just wanted people and we we shared them with the staff. We shared them with our board of directors. Made him very happy to know that he was doing something. He was homebound. This was a disabled man. But uh doing that type of of activity on his his own. Uh, one example, um, the the relation I I should also add with volunteers and I I I I should never hesitate to talk about this. It's so

[18:35]  important in what we do, not us, not just us, Meals on Wheels programs throughout the country. It's that face-to-face contact with the recipient that makes just as important as the food we deliver. You're looking at average age in in the lower 80s. people who are homebound or have limited physical abilities because of of some disability or frailty, cognitive even and um who the only person they may see every day or even on a longer term basis is the deliverer. That person not only brings the food, it's a person who cares about the person they're delivering to. The recipient knows this person will intervene if something goes wrong, if I need help. And we have saved lives, by the way. We have uh there have been occurrences where nobody answers the door. The deliverer calls the office. We call on the phone. If nobody answers the

[19:22]  phone, we call the emergency contact. Say for example, an adult daughter. Sometimes the daughter will say, "I'm sorry. I should have canceled today. Mom's with me. She's got a medical appointment." But sometimes the daughter will say, "No, she should have answered the door. I'm going straight out there." We have two registered nurses on staff, by the way, who also part of our uh being able to identify the right nutrition for the people that we're serving. uh you know people with diabetes or people with uh renal disease and getting dialysis, people who need a puree diet or chopped diet because of chewing or swallowing challenges. And so they help monitor that we're sending out the right nutrition just not just two meals. Uh but anyway, uh that that one thing that stays in my mind I use as example one morning I was this is going back 15 years ago when I first started here sitting with the chef and uh one of the volunteers came in and said I'm

[20:09]  picking up my food and why is it Mrs. so and so on my route and he said to her, "She passed away last night." And the volunteers started to cry uncontrollably. I've been delivering to her for years. I always look forward to seeing her and and seeing how she's doing. It's those relationships that are so important. It it communicates to the recipient a sense of I'm not alone.

[20:30]  Somebody who cares about me is seeing me every day. Uh and um that that's just uh just as important, if not more important, than the food. Sadly, when our nurses do intakes, the sad term that you're finding in our field now are elder orphans. Can you imagine be somebody being 85 years old, you're doing an intake, who is your emergency contact? I'm sorry, my husband's deceased. My siblings are gone. I have a child across the country. I No, I'm alone. Elder orphans. What a sad term to even think about. But yeah, I'm going on. I'm sorry. No, no, no. You know, you actually answered my question because the question that I had for you was um if if people I think people just think that Meals and Wheels is dropping off food, but they're missing it completely is not just dropping off food, but you just talked about everything that uh is

[21:18]  involved in what Meals and Wheels does. And actually, I see it every once a week like you mentioned. Uh my neighbor across the street, she's taking care of her husband that's elder and you know, he's disabled. He's not walking, doesn't talk. I think he had a stroke if I'm not mistaken. and um she's taking care of him, you know, fully. She she actually had a a home care person that came, but she just felt that um they weren't doing the work. When she's looked at camera, they were just feet propped up. You know, she's having to redo all this stuff. So, she actually had to leave her job. And now, you know, even sometimes, I guess some of the food they may bring, maybe they they can't use it all. So, she's actually bringing some stuff over here. So, talking about, you know, really helping the community, right?

[21:56]  You're not just helping that one home. Now, there's another home that's also kind of wreaking the benefit. And I got two kids, so I think it's always kind of beneficial that she brings the vegetables and the fruits and pretty cool. But um man, it's it's it's very tough. I can see where that volunteer starts to build relationship with that elderly. And yeah, of course, when anybody, even if you don't know that person, if they're not, you know, blood when it's a what you'll call a friend or someone you knew, it's always sad to to see someone passing. Um but you you just bought a whole building. That's truly big moves. We we know why that happened, but are you looking to um see now more more trucks, more deliveries going out?

[22:37]  What is the goals now that you have a bigger facility? Well, you know, certainly um you know, we we you city planning al still talks about growing older adult population in the city and on Staten Island. So, and we we're looking at also a changing population that are but that are aging and um it our contracts also primary primarily the city department for the aging uh now it's called NYC aging but uh we also do work for managed long-term care providers these are like visiting nurse service and uh arch care they the people they're serving Medicaid based individuals who also need home delivered meals so we have some contracts with with some of them nursing another program nursing home transition and diversion program as visiting nurse associations in the city where there variations. There's also new uh u the uh

[23:26]  11:15 Medicaid waiver in New York state that there's sen group sent on providers we expect to see some uh we're not necessarily limited to an older adult population but for those who might need home delivered meals in order to help remain in the community. Um so uh yeah we're open. I'm looking for other types of contracts that are also going to be um where we can have a role. And um but right now up front is our growing census. That that truck we just got last week, we got number number 29 last week.

[23:59]  The parking lot we have across the street from us here in Port Richmond is full. Is full. We're squeezing that truck in. But if in in two or three years we needed two or three more trucks, there's no room in there. And so uh u we need to be loca one of the reason why the location we selected where we're able to build has a very large parking area so that our trucks are all going to fit there as well as the staff who drive to work as well as those 18 wheelers that pull in at 5:00 in the morning or 4:00 in the morning dropping off milk and bread. So um um that's that's what's in our mind, but we're open to other not for-profit contracts. Can we be more of a support to food pantries on Staten Island and to soup kitchens? Can we be Are there other types of contracts where we can continue or further our not for-p profofit

[24:45]  mission in the community? I love that. Uh Joe, you must feel very to know that you got this this big building. I think we spoke about it last time too and you mentioned it again, but to have this big building, know where you started, see where you're going, you must be excited, man. Like it's exciting. A great challenge. Uh uh you know, I love my work. I love the people I work with. I I love to start my day down in the kitchen and I joke around with the kitchen staff as food's getting ready to be plated and and that's where I I love after I turn on my computer on my desk, I go straight downstairs and and talk with them and talk to the drivers who are waiting to load their trucks. Uh so it's a wonderful uh group of people to work with. Um the um the challenge, yeah, it's there. We we had a meeting with the AR our architect yesterday actually with the chef and our vice president and uh

[25:34]  and our board chair really to plot out exactly how we want all that equipment laid out in this area and how we're going to organize our staff area and our our meeting rooms, our staff training rooms, things like that. It's exciting. Uh we know we want to have complete that plan by the end of April. We bought the building and the area that where we're going to be building our kitchen is pretty much we just have to complete the demolition of some walls and things, but we're going to be ready to start bringing in those uh several 20 foot walk-in freezers and several 20 foot walk-in refrigerators. I'm talking like rooms of freezer and refrigerators because we're using that now. We have to project even beyond that where we're going to put the half a dozen kettles and uh uh combination combi ovens and things like that. So, we're planning all that out. Where is the food going to be plated? So, that conveniently leaves the

[26:22]  building onto the trucks for delivery. And then after the trucks leave, where the volunteers are going to pull up their cars and where they load up their cars for delivery. So, all those logistics are we're getting together now. And I got off the phone with my board chair about an hour before our conversation in terms of of some of that planning uh that uh and targeting having all that planning done within the next several weeks or at least by the end of April. So, um it's exciting. It's a challenge. And then what else is out there? And what are we gonna do with the building we're in now? What types of work can we do out of this building? So, um it's So, you don't plan to get rid of it? Just another You're really just expanding. Just another building. Yeah.

[26:57]  It's like what else can we do out of this building? Uh and um that with a not for-p profofit focus. Uh and so, um you know, we're we're part of Staten Island and that you know, the thing we we are one of the burrows of the city of New York City. Uh but, uh this is a community where we all know each other.

[27:14]  We've worked with each other. the case management agency work. We work with that older adult case management, the community agency for senior citizens. I was a vice president there in the 1990s and and not that I know the staff now, but I know what they do. We coordinate with them because they also identify individuals who need our service and we refer people back to them who may need other help in in accessing entitlements and service. We have a chamber of commerce that we're a member of that's important for community support. uh an inter a not nonprofit Staten Island organization. I'm a member I actually I co-chair the Staten Island uh um coat the community organizations against disaster. we came to be after Hurricane Sandy and uh really to we have prepped to deal with any future emergency

[28:01]  whether it's a hurricane or whether it's uh whatever might affect the community so that as not for profofits we're able to to sustain ourselves in the community keep things going uh how we managed to keep getting fuel after hurricane Sandy and our and I was here during that time how we managed to keep going and get food out on the road where we found gas for our trucks and how how we find locations for our volunteers to go to fuel up. So, uh, as part of a coalition, uh, you know, we're ready. We're ready and we meet pretty regularly as as a co-ad. Uh, we're also part of the city.

[28:34]  The city has a network of older adult services. We're part of that network as well. Being part of networks, community commitment, uh, is what, um, maybe more at one point I remember reflected, we had one inter agency council for aging on Staten Island representing aging service providers, nursing homes, etc. the other burrows because they were so big may have had multiple inter agency councils, multiple coordinated as opposed to we have one on the island, we have one chamber, we have one this and that and so it helps us to to work have this identity. We have almost half a million people here but I think in in in some respects we still have a small town identity that we know each other, we work with each other.

[29:14]  I'll go to our local foundations, for example, the local bank foundations. They they gave us money for the the building a few years ago and do that. I'm going back to them now. We need some money because we're building the kitchen now. We need some money to help offset the expenses in building out our kitchen. And so, but we know each other for for years and we work together and I think that's an important part of Yeah, that's what community looks like, right?

[29:38]  Helping each other in a time of need and and and that's exactly what you're doing. kind of you built community all these years and now it's how can we help each other out because in reality they benefit off of it as well. I really want to kind of get into a different space here. Um as you continue to to grow there's that tech aspect of of the world the AI. How is Meals on Wheels using um AI? Is it through tablets and delivery?

[30:03]  Like are you guys using it there or maybe for volunteers? Are you guys using AI or is this something that you guys have even tapped into? you know, we we know we we're using technology and um um I mentioned for our senior staff here, our assistant CFO is younger guy. Madura is younger guy. He's going to be a great CFO someday when our CFO retires. He's our techno guru here. And I ever have questions around anything technical, I go to Madura and uh all of us do. But um there are things we've incorporated AI.

[30:36]  I really Yeah. I have two daughters who are millennials, by the way, and I go to them, too, for by both whom work not for-p profofit areas, by the way. Nice. And um uh AI, I I can't absorb yet, but I know there's a lot of ways that we've absorbed technology here. Uh and by the way, when I talk to my daughters about Meals on Wheels, I say we're this new kitchen will be ready for the millennials in60. So, uh they're bigger than the baby boomers. But in any case, for example, Department for the Aging has required this. We have every of our staff drivers has a tablet there. Now, so there's technology involved there.

[31:10]  Every delivery they make, they record on the tablet. So we have in real time the the delivery time and confirmation of every meal delivered every day by our staff drivers. That'll be much more of a challenge with 250 volunteers. I'm not sure if we're going to be able to to do that with them as well. But all of our delivery trucks now have the technology in there where uh we can track their movement if there are any mechanical problems. It it records with that in the office um um uh oil change due things like that. Uh so technology is incorporated in that respect where we also use technology.

[31:49]  This is a with our CFO who since we're doing all this prep to buy the building, he was away on vacation in Florida for several weeks. He worked more from there than he does when I I joked with I said you stay in Florida. You got more work done than when you're in the office. But technology made it possible for him to be that involved with our day-to-day stuff. And and I call him and said we need this. I'll have it to you in a half an hour 20 minutes or you need to contact for the aging. They need this.

[32:14]  So if that that's not answering an AI question though. I'm sorry Efron but no no listen Joe you actually asking the question answering the question. But I have another question when it comes to the AI. Sure. If you could actually solve one problem in your day-to-day operations, what would you actually love for AI to handle? Wow. Solve a problem with day-to-day operations.

[32:35]  Oh wow, that's a good question. What is that thing, man? What is that pain point that you just like, oh my god, if I can give it away or if someone could just help me with this? You know, I on the one hand, one of my first thoughts that comes to mind is I believe so strongly in the personal face to face that um uh I almost would not want to sacrifice any of the that personal face to face or or on the phone hearing voice to voice uh to uh something else that's not that that's that's my gut reaction. And I think what we do also this type of work requires that type of thing. I you know I I joke about AI in that someday with the advancement of technology will

[33:23]  everybody own um organic uh printers and print punch in uh uh steak potatoes and broccoli and have it come out uh I don't know if it was like 2001 space odyssey or another one of those science fiction movies where that they actually did that. They were they were they punched a meal into a machine and it came out. Is that going to be the case in two 2100 or 20 2120 or what? I don't know. But uh um yeah. So I can't you know we are incorporating techn um you know that the ability to have maybe a a more extensive uh contact or information about the wellness of our recipients perhaps. But I that but my next thought on that would

[34:10]  that be intrusive that every you have to know how Mrs. So and so is doing at this moment as opposed to the driver or deliverer the volunteer having to report Mrs. Smith did not look good this morning. You need to call her the daughter. You need to call her family members. As opposed to something being there where would would recipients be open to having a technology there that would alert us that there's a problem. I mean, that might be one one way to extend that contact because we're not just about dropping a meal off. We're about caring about that whole person.

[34:39]  So, uh and uh I don't know if I answered your question or not, but you are Joe. I love it. I actually love your thoughts. I have my little notes here. I was going to reference technology, but I'm not sure if I uh We have, by the way, we No, you're doing amazing. You're amazing, Joe. You know what's funny is that I was going to ask you um but you already mentioned it was 30 years from now, let's say we're having AIdriven meals, printed organic food, as you mentioned.

[35:04]  Is that a thing you want to see or know and you kind of already spoke to it. So, that's how I know you're doing phenomenal here. Okay. You're answering all the questions just in line with my next question almost like you're thinking. By the way, we do organica, we do we do uh uh vegan. And we do pump for the Aging has encouraged us to all these other options. Frozen, fresh, fresh, chilled, cold, hot, as well as vegan, vegetarian, etc. Asian, Hispanic. We we have all variations incorporated into our menu cycle. I'm sorry I interrupted you. No, no, no. Listen, this is your show. I mean, we want to know about you, the leader. We want to know about your organization. So, continue to um you know, whatever it is you want to give us. But let's let's kind of move into a different chapter here as well. Sure.

[35:44]  as I speak to you, you have this business brain but a service heart. Oh, yeah. How do you actually even balance that in the nonprofit world? Yeah. And you know, by the way, I and I've had prior to Meals on Wheels, I also was a CEO in other organizations or an executive director. I've had other administrator and what I've learned early on I mean it's great being a social worker and that's got to be the basis of my thinking in terms of the care we're providing the service we're providing to to the people we serve but uh to run an organization you have to have a business perspective and um because we're not for-profit and uh we we've got to make sure that our budget what we're being reimbured by the city or what we being reimbured by our contracts uh matches what our operating expenses are. So, um uh if if we were spending more than we were getting in,

[36:33]  that's not good because eventually you don't have enough money to do what we have to do. And uh so that that's got to be our target to preserve the quality of what we do. And um shut off my phone here. My when the door somebody's at the door, my phone rings, too. Uh to uh preserve the quality of what we do, but uh but also to to maintain a uh a uh not for-p profofit budget. We don't. So there has to be a business perspective there. When when I meet with our CFO and my chief operating officer and I'm told, look, we need to add another clerical staff because of what's the volume of calls that come in from recipients, from volunteers, from relatives, the family caregivers. Uh they're constantly on the phone with our case management agency, all the phone and we need another clerical person to to handle all that phone movement. Uh and or if um we we bring on another truck, we just brought

[37:21]  another truck on. We need to hire another driver. So we have to make all these decisions based upon can we afford it? I mean if if the my COO came and said Joe we need two more trucks and two more drivers. I was going to say can we these trucks aren't cheap. These are most of them F-150s that have been equipped with a they're called hot shots. The back of the truck is half is the refrigerator. Part of it is a a warmer like an oven so that the temperatures are preserved during the delivery. So, we got to make those choices sometimes in terms of uh do we modify uh we just add another volunteer route that saved some money, did not have to order another truck. One of our trucks where the delivery route was getting too heavy. Our COO, vice president, she was able to get enough volunteers to create another route, which is why we're up to 49 routes every day. But uh so those kind of decisions

[38:09]  have to be part of a a not for-profit perspective but not forgetting what our our essential mission is people we're serving. Do you feel like there was a big mindset shift you've had to make um as a leader in this space? Not really. You know why I I suppose because my career evolved, you know, from getting out of college, getting my master's degree in social work, uh working as a direct service provider, then becoming a supervisor over programs, uh program directors, uh uh you know, it evolved. So I I started evolving that that dual perspective that I have to say in terms of leadership as well as service provider, caring about people you're serving, but also caring about the administration of those services. So for me it evolved uh I I I evolved into aging services. My very

[38:58]  beginning was foster care adoption and in that agency where I worked and uh then so I became a supervisor of a preventive program a program to prevent foster care but it was supervision. So I I had to oversee a program and then I moved into another setting actually when I worked inatient psychiatry. I moved into a uh I left there to to take on the role as a director of a outpatient geriatric psych program for Staten Island. So I was directing a program but also supervising the therapists who are working with the elderly mental health issues mostly depression. Then from there into other administrative roles.

[39:34]  So I kind of like evolved into it and there was no really point where I had to change perspective. I think that's why uh uh I was able to maintain like that. I I could actually I hadn't thought of it this way until our conversation right now. Efron, you're making me realize that that there is a dual identity on for there should be a dual identity for a not for-profit administrator because you you have to care about the mission you're serving, the people you're serving, but also to be aware of the dynamic of administration, of of cost, of income, of fundraising, staffing, and just to make sure everything works. It's work, man. People think the nonprofit's easy. That's it's just like running a business. I always say a nonprofit and for-profit very similar. The difference is that a lot of people in the nonprofit space, they go home very happy because they made the difference, right? Uh I I leave you with this last question before

[40:23]  we get into that blind question, that that fun moment of the podcast. Um what keeps your hope alive when the world feels a little heavy? Yeah. What keeps my hope alive? know, um I'm blessed with uh two wonderful daughters who are uh my my older daughter is a a vice president of resiliency out of the human services council, which is a not for-p profofit serving all service providers in the city. My younger daughter works for a not for-profit theater group. She's a theater and uh dance and and voice uh professional and both working in a non- but getting to know people that they know and their generation. Uh I'm hopeful I you know they educate me a lot in terms of what the perspective of younger people uh and uh I'm hopeful that we're we're moving

[41:11]  in most of the time moving in the right direction as a society uh hopefully with with young thinkers like that uh younger staff that I have on here working with that I've worked with um that um you know the importance of this type of of work and I'm just a a positive person anyway. way. That's one of my flaws. I I don't look for fault. I look for value.

[41:35]  I look for for what's good in people. And I maybe I one of my flaws I don't see the the the bad side, the negative sides. And so uh um I love it though. I love it. Keep me in the right with the right perspective. She keeps me in line. But and so do my daughters who are just absolutely wonderful. My wife is uh the same way to me. Every time like I see things in the positive way and she's like, "Listen, this is the way it is."

[42:00]  I'm like, "Yeah, but if you look at it this way, is it really?" Especially my my four-year-old daughter when she's just sitting here acting up. Yeah, but maybe my daughter wanted to I get in trouble all the time. My wife too was a was a successful business woman on St. She was a co-owner of a beauty salon and I often say that she could run for Burough President if she wanted to because she cut everybody's hair on Staten Island. When they had it closed at the point of COVID is when she retired, but at that point she became a caregiver. my mother-in-law was very ill and then my father-in-law with Alzheimer's and she she has been heroic. She has been angelic taking care of her mother and up until with not that long ago my father-in-law finally passed away with Alzheimer's. She's been the one working with the wonderful nurses aid, the aids that we had there taking care of him next door to us, by the way.

[42:47]  And so, um, I I can't speak enough of her illustrating the value of caregiving and of the caregivers we had took care of my father-in-law with his severe Alzheimer's. Uh, it was um just wonderful to just to be part of it. But the strain to see the strain and and pressure on them. I I always say I think um women are the best thing that happened into this world, man.

[43:11]  Especially a good woman. You mentioned about your your your wife and how amazing. And I love that we get, you know, wives think that we don't talk about them often. So hopefully she's watching this and she sees all the good things that you said cuz my wife says, "Listen, why are you not nice as nice to me as you are to everybody else?" I'm like, "If you only knew the good things I say about you all the time, what do you mean?" Um so I love that you you you brought your wife into it. But let's get into this this curveball of a blind question. So totally off script. This was from the last leader that we've had on the on the on the podcast. If you weren't doing this work and had to live a completely different life, zero limitations, what would you be doing right now?

[43:52]  What would I be doing right now? Totally different life. Meals and wheels doesn't exist. Yeah. So I'd have to go back to my college years. And when I was like coming out of uh high school and uh I enjoyed history. I remember thinking but I'd be a history teacher and but I still love history. I I get uh Smithsonian magazine, National Geographic and Science News. So I can read about science, history, uh cultures, etc. And so I yeah I was and I still love history. Right now I'm reading a book about the French and Indian War and how it led up to the American Revolution. So I love history and so um um and thing that stays in my head is a history teacher who foretold the Gulf of Tonkan resolution was really

[44:43]  occurred right before the Vietnam war and teacher said many of you in his classroom are going to be affected by that resolution because it's it's going to lead to something very ser I don't know how many of my classmates in that high school class senior class landed up in Vietnam and didn't come home but a history was was something that um okay I think uh would have been where I would have been uh and what's your what's your blind question to the next leader? I had two of them to choose from because two of them that I think of at times and one is um that uh I never put it up on my wall. I where I worked before where I was CEO before I came to Meals on Wheels. I'm talking about 18 years ago. Uh I wanted to put a pickup sign on the wall. There's there's always more to the story. somebody comes in with a problem or an issue and say,

[45:30]  "No, we got to do this." I said, "No, there's more to the story. We need to find out more about the situation or the occurrence, there's always more to the story." And and my question would be uh that has the person ever considered that to use that what is more to the story in any situation you've ever encountered?

[45:48]  My other one came from a board member. I'm going back more than 15 years ago and I made a little sign in my office. Reality is in the perception. reality isn't necessarily what's real. It's how you perceive it to be. And so, uh, uh, it's important to have that accurate perception of what you do or what you're seeing or what you're hearing because sometimes, especially in this current day and age, uh, reality is is not the reality, it's what's perceived. And sometimes that perception is is skewed or it's not not right. It's not accurate or whatever. But, love I don't know if I'm answering that question, Eiffin, but that's No, you are, man. You are. I uh as we're wrapping up, man, we're about to wrap up here, but if for those that want to know more about Meals and Wheels, know more about the organization

[46:36]  or or become a donor, maybe they understand island watching this. Um what's the website? How can they reach out? Thank you for I kept on my thinking I have to mention that during our have a discussion. Yeah, we have a social media website, our Facebook, Meals on Wheels of Staten Island. That's Meals on Wheels of Staten Island. Um, and uh, not only I mean, if there are people locally who are watching this, hopefully you will be, you know, we're having that great fundraiser on April 9th at the Staten.

[47:05]  Uh, we're doing really well with tickets and we we do a limited raffle, $100 tickets. We sell 300 tickets and have prizes at the end of that. Three winners. We've already sold that out. we sold it out and uh but um yeah that and also um we're we're still raising funds for our new kitchen. So if there's anybody any with a foundation or an individual wants to send a a donation on our website it offers the opportunities to make a donation and to identify where it should go. Our website also is a way we recruit volunteers. Somebody can say, "I want to volunteer with that with the Meals on Wheels locally, of course, Staten Island, but uh and anywhere I could throw a pitch for other Meals on Wheels programs. I know programs throughout the country, and there should be a home delivered meals contract in every county of the country. That's

[47:52]  where the Older Americans Act. People should even uh research their own their own county for meals on wheels programs. But us on Staten Island, remember us? We're we're we have a we're building this new building. We bought the building. We need money though as we're we're building we're ordering all this kitchen equipment and doing the construction and all that. We have some city money waiting for us at the end of the line. Hopefully that'll that'll be coming. It'll be a big help. Listen, uh restaurant equipment is not cheap. I built a cafe years and years ago. I built a cafe and all restaurant equipment is super expensive. So, I can only imagine what the funding looks like. So guys, if you guys are are watching this, whether you're living in Staten Island or not, if you want to make a difference, these are ways you can make a difference because in reality, you're impacting so many lives.

[48:36]  So if you want to donate towards the kitchen, towards the new building, make sure that you guys are visiting Meals on Wheels of Staten Island. Is that correct? That's right. Perfect. Make sure you guys visiting them on all social media platforms. You can actually check out the website. Joe, it has been truly a pleasure to have this conversation, to get to know more about Meals and Wheels. We thank you so much.

[48:55]  If you guys are still watching, make sure you guys are liking, sharing, comment in the section if you guys enjoyed this. Um, and if you guys are in Staten Island, you guys got to go pay a visit. Thank you guys. It's been the hard podcast. We'll catch you guys in the next one. Thank you. Thank you.