The mistake that ended a political career became his life’s purpose

[0:16]  Welcome back to another episode here on the Horn Hostel Podcast. We got Mr. Mike in the building. How you doing, Mike?

[0:19]  Good, how you doing?

[0:22]  Good man. We're coming off the weekend that we're just chit-chatting. You're telling me that you had a good weekend and you were able to turn off and all that. What does that look like for you, Mike, when you're not doing your nine-to-five and you're not pouring into others and you're not the community leader and all these good things? What is Mike doing to turn it off and just chill and relax?

[0:39]  I mean, I I have to say, we take self-care really importantly here. It's something I always coach my team on is the importance of disconnecting and resting and reflecting. Now, in my role, I don't always get to tune off, turn off completely. but it's it's not like I'm on call 24 hours a day. so honestly, it's spending time with friends. it's sitting in my recliner watching whatever. Crap is I I've decided to watch that day. I've been on a I've been on a Marvel binge the last week or so. So going through the Marvel cinematic universe. I mean, that's how I dis decompress and just rest and relax and take care of myself. So yeah.

[1:22]  Got it. What's your make for what's your favorite Marvel character?

[1:24]  Fi favorite Marvel character, wow. Spider Man. because when I was a kid that was my favorite. yeah. But I would

[1:32]  Got it. Got it.

[1:36]  say Dax from from Guardians of the Galaxy is probably a close second. Yeah.

[1:40]  Yeah, I I are you a a Marvel fan over D C or do you think D C comes close?

[1:47]  I think Marvel is far more consistent and D C is very choppy. So yeah. Like the

[1:51]  God it love it, man.

[1:55]  the no the Nolan Batman movies, perfect. but there were some others that weren't quite as great. So

[2:02]  I'm not gonna lie to you, like I don't watch any of that. Like I I watch it. I don't I guess I've never been like a fan of the comics and the superheroes and all that. However, I always tell someone when someone says what is your favorite movie? I gotta go with Dark Knight, man. That was my and and so sad that we didn't get to see another one with with Heath in it. But that was my favorite movie, man. I just feel that

[2:23]  Yeah.

[2:23]  one was done so well. What was your favorite movie, you say, out of the DC Marvel?

[2:28]  of of all time or in that y universe?

[2:30]  Yeah, yeah, all time. You can do all time.

[2:31]  honestly my favorite movie of all time is Silence of the Lambs. I'm not gonna lie. It's favorite book, favorite movie, yeah.

[2:36]  Silence of the Lambs. Okay, okay.

[2:38]  Yeah.

[2:38]  Well why why do you like that movie so much? What what about it? Makes that

[2:42]  it was I'd never been as captivated by an acting performance in a movie as I was with with Anthony Hopkins as lector. And just the all around cast was superb, the script was perfect. I mean it it really was. It's one I can watch over and over again and I can't find flaws in it, and that's always the g sign of a really good movie.

[3:02]  That's good. You know what movie I just watched yesterday, Throwback, was I think Jingle All the Way with Simbad and Arnold.

[3:08]  wow. that's I saw that a long time ago. Couldn't tell you anything about it, but yeah. That's okay.

[3:13]  I we wanted to watch a family movie yesterday on the weekend, and and you know, I was like, what an appropriate movie for a two-year-old and a five-year-old,

[3:23]  Okay.

[3:24]  you know, and and of course, man, the movies were made very different. There was those things, you know, that you probably don't want your kid to watch. But I realized I was watching it. I'm I'm I'm good. I came out all right. But

[3:34]  Yeah, yeah.

[3:34]  just just watch that movie. And it was really about, you know, this dad that was always making promises. And also not listening to his wife. His wife said, Hey, don't forget to get your son this gift. It was called Turbo Man or something like that, this toy figure.

[3:45]  that's right. Yeah. Yeah.

[3:47]  And then at the end of it, he becomes Turbo Man, right? Like he's in a parade dressed up as Turbo Man. Sinbad and him are like fighting for this one toy and you know. And I thought, how cool. The nostalgic feeling of when you were a child just watching

[4:00]  Yeah.

[4:00]  some some good movies and some good TVs.

[4:03]  Yeah. I have a fifteen year old daughter and so we she's way more into DC than I am. So if

[4:09]  Okay.

[4:09]  on the DC Marvel split, she's way more DC. But like she and I have very similar movie tastes. We went to see the Odyssey together, which you wouldn't expect a fifteen year old to get into, but she totally did.

[4:20]  Yeah.

[4:21]  so yeah, it's it's fun to be able to watch movies like that with your kids. Stuff that you

[4:25]  Alone.

[4:26]  enjoy and that they enjoy as well.

[4:27]  Yeah, man, I'm giving her all my favorite cartoons, man. And then since we talk about cartoons, what is your favorite cartoon growing up? I when I think cartoons, I think of s waking up on a Saturday morning watching,

[4:37]  That's right.

[4:37]  you know, freaking Animaniacs or Gargoyles or Power Ranger. What were you watching on a Saturday morning, Mike?

[4:44]  So I'm I'm a little older than you, so it was always the Saturday morning Looney Tunes cartoons. Pug Bugs Bunny,

[4:49]  Okay.

[4:50]  Daffy Duck, all of that. Those were that was my childhood

[7:31]  I rock with it.

[12:43]  and I still love those and still watch occasionally. Yeah.

[18:42]  I love it, Mike. Well, Mike, thank you so much for just bringing that nostalgic at the beginning of this conversation. I'm

[20:01]  Sure.

[20:04]  pretty sure that everyone's watching us like I remember this on a Saturday morning.

[20:58]  Yeah.

[21:01]  but you mentioned the role that you play. What is the role? What is the organization?

[21:35]  Sure. The organization is called Community Development for All People, and I'm the executive director. It is a a nonprofit that is wholly owned by the United Methodist Church for All People. So we are unabashedly faith based, but we don't have any requirement for anybody to believe anything to access our programs. but we are going to get a little spiritual on folks from time to time.

[24:11]  Yeah, I love it, man. What what brings you to this organization, Mike? I always love that we could be in any place. We can be in places that are making a lot more money, but to us it's not about the money. It's truly about the impact that we create. And probably even as we get older, it's just it's truly about that. what gets you into pouring into others and creating that impact for others to be able to s see the the you know the end of the time?

[27:57]  Sorry, you cut out there for a second.

[28:16]  no worries. what I was saying is what brings you to this space of impact?

[29:00]  so I had worked in

[29:08]  Good, I'm listening back.

[29:19]  Sorry, it's trying to reconnect if you can hear me.

[29:42]  Mike, you still there?

[29:42]  Everyone you're there?

[29:42]  I you're you're you're back, you're back. Go ahead, Mike. How good.

[29:42]  Okay. Sorry. I don't I'm not sure what's going on with our with our internet here today. So so I was I had worked in politics for 20 years and bopped around the country running campaigns, working in various legislatures, Michigan, Ohi I'm sorry, Michigan, Ohio, and New York. wound up in in New Jersey. And and got hired on to work on the marriage equality campaign in New Jersey. so we won there in the state courts, and then I came to Ohio to run the marriage equality campaign here, which ended in the Supreme Court victory in O the Obergefeld dis decision. So then I went to work for the Ohio Senate and I was the chief of staff for the Senate Democratic Caucus. and My career in politics crashed and burned by my own personal behavior, inappropriate behavior. I was held accountable and asked to resign. And right around the time that I had resigned, I had started coming to Church for All People. it's it's a Methodist church, but I was not Methodist. I grew up Catholic. But I had heard that this was a really diverse community and pretty progressive. So I checked it out, I fell in love with it. And Went to meet with the pastor one day after everything happened and I was asked to resign, asked for time to meet with him and had a meeting with him and told him what was going on. And he was like, Yeah, you you really screwed up. but he said something to me that no one had ever said before, which he said, God loves you just the way you are, and God's not finished with you yet. And as somebody who considered himself agnostic at the time, that held surprising weight for me.

[29:46]  Well.

[29:46]  so I left that meeting feeling like it was gonna be okay. Like that there I was gonna make it through. Didn't know what I was gonna do for a job, didn't know what I was gonna do for a career, anything like that. But then a few weeks later, he stopped me again after church one Sunday and said, I think I might have a job for you. And that was great because I wasn't getting hired anywhere else right now. So went

[29:47]  Yeah.

[29:47]  and met with him and and he said, We're opening this fresh market across the street. in a building that used to be a drive-thru beer store. I'd like to do a really big kickoff event where we get the press there, we get elected officials there. He said, I think you might know how to do that. And I was like, as a matter of fact, I do. So I got hired on initially as a consultant. but then a few months later, I got hired on full time. And then when the when the executive director retired, announced his retirement, I wasn't even applying for the position, but through a confluence of events. The candidate that I was supporting didn't make it to the second round on the st on the search committee. So I threw my hat in the ring and they hired me as executive director. so I've been with CD4AP for about eight years, and I've been as executive director for four. So this is the place I've been looking for my whole life. And the great thing about this place is I feel like I make an impact every single day in ways large and small. So you can't beat that as a job.

[29:48]  I love what you just said. This is the place I've been looking for my whole life. Why do you say that?

[29:48]  because I got into politics because I wanted to make a difference in the world. I wanted to make the world a better place, a more caring and compassionate place. And as I'm sure you know from politics, that's that has mixed results. You help get candidates elected and they don't turn out to be quite who you wanted them to be, or you really believe in a candidate and they just don't win the election. And when I was working in the Ohio Senate, it was overwhelmingly controlled by the other party. So we didn't really have a chance to advance any kind of helpful or compassionate agenda. The best we could do was stop the majority from doing something really, really horrible and make it just slightly horrible. so not exactly an environment where your soul feels renewed every day. and so when I lost my job, I started volunteering at the free store, one of our programs, the U United Methodist Free Store. And I just felt this sense of, I was getting way more out of being there than I was than I was giving.

[29:49]  Mm-hmm.

[29:49]  interacting with people, fell in love and have just stayed on ever since, wanting to be. And when I got hired on as a consultant, I didn't have any other clients. This was my only client. So I was basically doing a full time job at a very part-time salary and eventually managed to convince them that why don't you just bring me on full time? And and because

[29:49]  Yeah.

[29:49]  I loved it so much, I I bought into the mission. I loved the people. I love the energy. And it just made a huge difference for me.

[29:49]  What do you think was the biggest lesson that was learned? You talked about just kind of that moment in your life that turned upside down. I'm always a big believer that life happens for reasons. Of course it has. It did for you. Now you're in a space, as you mentioned, that you've been looking for. But I can imagine that you also took something huge away from it, that learning lesson. Cause there's always that learning lesson when when things happen like that. What did you learn from?

[29:49]  Yeah, so the what I realized was it was a series of dominoes that fell that led to my all of it within my control, mind you. I'm

[29:49]  Yeah.

[29:49]  not trying to blame anybody else, but it was I was not happy at home, I was not happy at work, I had an in a an an an unhealthy relationship with alcohol, and I had no community to hold me accountable. I was so I was in such pain that I cut everybody out of my life. And the big takeaway from that was we all need community. this idea that people can do it on their own or this rugged individualism,

[29:49]  Yeah.

[29:49]  it's all crap. We need community to lift us up, to inspire us, to hold us accountable, to carry us over the over when we're when we're running when we're having a hard time. and that's what I found here was that really beautiful community that. I could trust, I felt safe in, I could be vulnerable in. They would hold me accountable because I make mistakes all the time. And if you don't have people to hold you accountable, you don't learn from those mistakes. And so that's what really transformed me.

[29:50]  I love that you said community. I was telling my wife, you know, we we grow up through so much trauma in our lives and what makes someone different, right? And it is that people surround themselves with good people or that God puts good people in people's lives, that community, right? so when people ask me like what's different about me, I'm one of seventeen kids, I always say God put good people in my life, you know, that allowed me to realize that I was bigger and better than who I thought I was. Right. And and and thank God because if not, I don't know if I get here. And you'd mentioned community. I also think in a leadership perspective, sometimes it's so hard, right? Because you just feel alone. You know, did you feel like you couldn't speak to people like when it came to like work-wise? Because I think a lot of the times when we go to work, it is so hard to go to work, deal with this, and then have no one to kind of conversate with. And it's like you just kind of hold it on and the next day shows up. Do you feel like there was that where you just didn't have someone that kind of almost understood you at that level?

[29:50]  I I definitely had people in my life who would have been willing to help if I had only talked to them. But I

[29:50]  Got it.

[29:50]  I cut myself off. Like my I was married at the time, my my then wife, she would have been willing to help at a moment's notice, but I was in so much pain I just cut everybody off.

[29:51]  Gotta gotta yeah. No, it makes sense. I I'm glad that you're in the the space that you're in today. And I really want to talk about

[29:51]  Two.

[29:51]  politics because I wan once wanted to get into politics and I thought to myself, I can actually do more in the nonprofit level or on my own than I could do at the government level. But maybe I'm wrong, Mike, right? Like where do you see the government space and cause it can't I just can't imagine you you take a chair and you make the decisions, you still gotta go through all these Hoops and people probably look at you like you said you were going to do this and it didn't happen. Is it because you don't have people that are on board with you and fighting the narrative? Or what does that look like?

[29:51]  Yeah, so I think I want to be clear. There are some really amazing, kind, compassionate, caring people who are elect in elected office and in politics. it just wasn't a good scenario for me personally. so and I will say too that one thing I learned in the political realm was the importance of real relationships, deep relationships. And so I had people that I had known for years in the political realm that I was able to Help bring that relationship into community development for all people. people on the city level, people on the county level, that kind of thing that can help us in our work. and that idea that you build those relationships over time, you earn their trust. Trust takes a long time to build, but can be lost in an instant if you lie,

[29:51]  Mm-hmm.

[29:51]  if you say something that's not true, if you act in an inappropriate way. So understanding the importance of those relationships. And and knowing that relationships are how you get things done. You cannot do things on your own. You have to have good people in partnership with. And so when I came here, I saw all of the amazing partnerships that Community Development for All People had built over the years with individuals and organizations. And that it just it completely made sense to me. And I could see the impact that they had because of those relationships as opposed to. we know everything, we do it all ourselves, we don't need anybody else. That's not a recipe for success. It's those relationships and recognizing that you can do more together than you can by yourself.

[29:52]  Yeah. Do do you feel that I love that you said that because I think that I'm in a space where there I'm at the school level, right? And there's so many organizations within that school doing the same exact thing. And my whole thing is like, why don't we come together and do this together versus chasing the same exact thing? It's like

[29:52]  Mm-hmm.

[29:52]  we get there slower, right? is that kind what you're referring to? It's like, hey, a lot of these nonprofits and organizations need to drop egos and start to collaborate more, especially in a time where we're all kind of crying about the same thing, which is, hey, and and I hate this I actually gonna say the word crying because we're not, but we're we're at fear of what's happening at the government level with funding. Right.

[29:52]  Yeah.

[29:52]  I think that more organizations need to come together and figure it out.

[29:52]  I couldn't I couldn't agree with you more. And actually, we are part of a group of providers, service providers here on the South side that meet on a monthly basis to break down those silos, to figure out ways to collaborate, to find areas where there might be duplication and either get rid of the duplication or we're doing it for a reason, right? Because there's a couple of for example, there's a couple of providers on the South side who both provide a lunch during the week, but We decided that that's not a duplicate that's not that's okay because people will take the one bag lunch that they get at the at the one organization and save that for dinner and use the one hot lunch that they get at the other organization and use that for lunch. So so we're we're fine with providing it both. But figuring out those ways to really collaborate, a perfect example is we just did a partnership with the service providers on the South Side. To do a pilot program at one of the other organizations of the open shelter to find storage space for people experiencing homelessness.

[29:52]  Okay.

[29:52]  because that's a big challenge for people who are living on the streets is where do I store my stuff? You know, where do I keep my valuables? and we're about to launch a pilot program that we got some funding from Columbus City Council to do that will benefit our collective impact, but it didn't have to be me. It did it was whichever organization was best equipped and they had space and they were ready to go. So we supported that.

[29:52]  I love that. Mike, with with you sent you mentioned eight years there, four years as executive director, what did you accomplish already that you're very excited about? And what are those things that you're working to get executed that you're also excited about?

[29:52]  Sure. I mean, I I will say that we have bit managed to and continuity has been really important to make sure that our existing programs, the free store, the all people's fresh market, our affordable housing, Thrive to Five, and I can go into those if you want, are are continuing to thrive and not just treading water, but actually growing in the impact that they have. and being very intentional at the beginning of my time to Take the deep dive into those areas, figure out what was working, what wasn't working, in consultation with the leadership in those programs and the community members who work in those programs to really get an honest assessment of where we are and where we can do better, and working on that. So that's to me, that's been the biggest thing that I'm proud of is just we've allowed these programs to grow and to thrive over the years. And even in times of funding uncertainty like now. We're still growing our programs, right? Our our Thrive to Five program is working with more moms and new parents or guardians than ever before. Our free store and our market are serving more people than ever before. And I think that's a testament to the team that we have is that that we're able to get that done. As far as long-term goals, one of my long-term goals is I want to open a homeless shelter for people experiencing homelessness here on the South Side. our

[29:52]  Love it.

[29:52]  shelter system is overloaded right now. there are hundreds of people waiting to get into shelter, emergency shelter every night. we do a winter warming center where we take in people on for the during the winter, the coldest months to make sure that they're safe and get them connected to resources. I'd like to do that three hundred and sixty-five days a year. So we are in conversations with partners about what that would look like. And we're making some real progress on that, I think. So I would say in the next year or two we probably would have we would be able to launch something like that here on the South side.

[29:52]  Love it, Mike. Do you feel the pressure is less in the role that you're in today versus when you were in politics? Or do you think the pressure is more? I mean, 'cause you're you're you're doing a lot.

[29:52]  yeah. It's there's a there's a lot that we do. So I would say the pressure is more so because A, when you're in the super minority in a legislative chamber, there's a certain sense of you're there's just a certain amount you're not gonna be able to do, right? You're not gonna be able to

[29:53]  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[29:53]  push the agenda. Whereas here, it's it's I have a great team of people, but I'm the leader and it's my responsibility to make sure that all of these program areas are supported and encouraged and that they're growing, finding ways to do better, finding ways that I can do better, like learning from my mistakes and how I could be more accessible and and helpful to the staff and the community members. So I definitely think there is more pressure, but that's as it should be. This this is important work that we're doing and it should be a hard job. This should not be an easy job where I can just go home at five o'clock and turn my brain off and that's it. Like

[29:53]  Yeah.

[29:53]  It's I'm constantly thinking about this place, and that's as it should be. And there's a certain level of stress, but I think it's a a healthy level of stress because we can have impact as opposed to that kind of stress from feeling you're impotent, you can't actually do anything. Ours is there are so many amazing opportunities that we have, which do we prefer which do we step up to because we believe in what we call the divine economy of abundance. God made everything and God made it abundant. So we know if we do the work, the resources will present themselves. So where do we

[29:53]  Yes, sir.

[29:53]  focus our efforts on revealing those resources versus where do we say that's not for us, that's not for this season? because we get approached all the time by people who have ideas about what we should do. And those are great, but

[29:53]  Yeah.

[29:53]  it's also like I I have to we have to make the determination between what we can put possibly focus on and what would be too much, or what we might not be able to deliver with excellence. So, for example, we we know that we don't have the experience to provide mental health services to our community. So we are working on developing partners who will come into our space to provide mental health services to our community. That's not us. We're not going to be a provider. You know, we don't we don't know how to build Medicaid or anything like that. And it's

[29:53]  Mm-hmm.

[29:53]  it would be fruitless for us to try because there are established organizations who already know how to do that that we can just partner with to deliver those services to our community.

[29:53]  Going back to what we said, that relationship, the communication, all that good stuff that we just kind of mentioned a little earlier ago. But I do want to stop at communication. How are people how are you getting the word out? I mean, it seems and and you could tell me if honey who you serve, but it looks like there's a lot of people, a lot of programs, and communication has to be, you know, almost top at funnel so that we're not having people fall through a cracks. What is the way that we're communicating with folks these days?

[29:53]  So the best the biggest way that we communicate with folks is simply word of mouth. people who are experiencing poverty and homelessness, they come

[29:53]  Mm-hmm.

[29:53]  here, they they feel like we're a place that cares. and there's there's an old saying that I love is that people don't care what you know until they know that you care. And I think we're able to show people that we care. We're not perfect, we can always do better, but we care. And so they come and they have an experience with us that's different. From other nonprofits or service service agencies that they may go to. And so they spread the word. Like, hey, have you been to the free store? Or if you're looking for produce, like the fresh market has fresh produce every day and is free of charge to anybody who falls below 200% of the federal poverty limit. So so that's one. Social media is another one that's important as far as promoting our events and things like that and connecting with our community members. There's also an app that we use called the Remind App, where We can send text messages to our program participants to let them know. It's maybe it's we let them know that there's an event coming up. Maybe we let them know what's available in the fresh market that day because the produce we have changes from day to day based on what we get delivered to us. So communicating in that way and making sure they feel plugged in. the other the other way that we do that is whenever possible, we hire from the community we serve and

[29:53]  Love it.

[29:53]  our most of our volunteers. come from the communities they serve. So they feel plugged in to what's going on and they're able to spread the word themselves to their families and friends and personal networks in a way that if we just put a post up on Facebook wouldn't have the same impact or the same reach.

[29:53]  That's amazing. And and how many people did you guys serve or have served in twenty twenty six or maybe you don't know that? Maybe how many do you guys serve in twenty twenty five so people can realize how big of an organization you guys are serving?

[29:53]  Yeah, so I would say in t twenty twenty five we served over thirty-five thousand families. between

[29:53]  man.

[29:53]  the biggest ones are the fresh market and the free store that people can come in every day and shop. our other programs have smaller numbers of program participants, but those are let me back up. We do two different things. One is we provide direct services like food and clothing and gently use gently used clothing and household items. The other we provide is The skills to navigate, identify, and overcome systemic barriers. So, for example, a pregnant woman comes to our Thrive to Pride program. We are able to walk alongside her during her pregnancy to make sure she's getting her doctor's visits, she's getting trained in how to be her the child's first teacher. you know, safe sleep practices, that kind of thing. So we are giving them the tools to be successful parents or our ge caregivers. so when the child is born. It's born healthy and it enters kindergarten ready to learn. So that's the biggest thing we can do for those kids is set them up for success. And the main way we do that is by empowering the parents and giving them the tools to be the most effective parents that they can be.

[29:54]  Mike, this has been a good conversation, man. And it looks like you guys are really truly making huge impact. I mean, when you share those type of numbers, the impact is happening and people could really be involved to con continue to create that impact and keep that legacy alive of what you guys have been able to do. How do people get involved? You mention website, you mention social, we need volunteers, we need donors. Where do they all go to get more information?

[29:54]  I think the best place to start is our website. It's the number fourallpeople.org. So forallpeople.org. That's where you can go to sign up to volunteer, learn more about our programs. We always appreciate a nice financial contribution and also get connected to our social media as well.

[29:54]  And Mog, I can't I gotta I gotta end with this. I appreciate your honesty when I first met you offline and then I appreciate your honesty today on this podcast and just kind of owning it of of what your past was and and I can imagine so many people have forgiven you, but what do you want people to understand about Mike and the leader that he is today? Like when someone thinks Mike, what do you want them to to say?

[29:54]  Sorry, I think I had a lag in the in the

[29:54]  Mike, did we cut off a little bit?

[29:54]  I'm still here if you can hear me. I'm just waiting for

[29:54]  Mike, you with me?

[29:54]  it to reconnect.

[29:54]  Hello, hello?

[29:54]  Am I back? Can you hear me? Sorry, what was that last question?

[29:54]  You are back. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. All good, Mike. I what I was mentioning is that you you you've obviously just come a long ways. What do you want people to know about Mike? When someone mentions Mike and the leader that he is, what do you want to them to know?

[29:54]  Well, I I I think the the the most effective things a a leader can do is to stay humble and stay curious and walk into every room and assume that you have something to learn from the people in that room. that's something that I've tried to try to impart over my time in leadership roles, both here and elsewhere. staying connected to the people that we serve, that's that's really important. I don't I never want to have a job so big that I can't be connected to the people that we serve. And the great thing about community development for all people is everybody knows where my office is. And everybody knows if the door's open, they can just walk in and sit down and tell me what's on their mind. And I want to remain open and accessible to people, transparent about what I'm trying to do or what we're trying to accomplish and why it matters. I think communication is the key.

[29:54]  Love it. Well, Mike, I appreciate your conversation, man. Continue to do some amazing things. It seems like for decades now you continue to pour into others, make sure that you can change lives. your life has been changed in the mix of it all, and you continue to just become the better, the best version of yourself. So we thank you, Mike. My name's E

[29:54]  Thank you.

[29:54]  Brain. Yeah, no, thank you. Thank you for guys that are watching. Make sure you guys do like, subscribe, and comment. These are the leaders that we love to have a conversation with because at the end of the day, if not us, then who? We'll see you guys the next one. Latest.