Building a Forest of Hope: Melissa Millward on Long-Term Impact for Marginalized Youth

[0:00]  So, it is okay to be angry. Anger is a really scary thing, but that's a human thing to feel anger. Now, that's okay, but it's not okay to punch someone or the wall. It's not okay to scream at somebody. Sometimes that may happen. And if it does, we need to cycle back. And because these kids are with the same group of peers for their four years for life, there's no running away from these sort of conflicts. you can't skip out on it. You show up the next weekend and we go, "Okay, now we got to sit down and address it." So, it's usually the, you know, three people in the room and it's a facilitated discussion and we call it vamping to vamp it out. So, you vent and then you own, you're accountable to your part. Um, then M is mile, walk a mile, it's empathizing, and then P is for

[0:48]  plan. So, how are we going to work together here? May not be best friends, but we need to be respectful of one another. So, we're approaching it in a variety of ways and often when people aren't triggered so that you can build on that skill. Good morning. Welcome back to another episode of the Heart and Hustle podcast. We already started off knowing that we were twins. We're both drinking tea this morning. What's that? Mine says kindness matters. Hers says Canada cuz she's out in the wilderness somewhere.

[1:32]  But we'll figure this out here. So Mel, let's get real. Let's get into it. The world's a noisy place. Um we're really kind of disconnected with the world and a lot of kids are growing up without a steady hand guiding them. But then there's organizations like yourself, Trails. You're the president of this organization. Um do you remember the exact moment when you realized like this is just more than a job? this is my call and this is a purpose. Do you recall that? Yeah. When I first learned about trails in 2016, I was just fascinated by the program as a whole. I'd never seen anything that was so holistic and unique, long-term and consistent. And my mentor Jim Hayhurst, or we nicknamed him Hurst, who is the founder of Trails in 1992, he would say that your passions aren't a coincidence, they're really your calling. And it just felt like this

[2:20]  was designed for me to be a part of. And I grew up in a community where opportunities felt out of reach. And at Trails, we offer what I wish every young person could have, consistency, care, and someone who truly truly believes in them. Love it. And if you could just take us back, what was it like, Mel? Um, like were you always connected to nature and psychology or did this just kind of spark something later on in life? No, I I was uh sponsored to go to a camp when I was about 12 years old and that was my first exposure to the wilderness and I found it intimidating and overwhelming and similar to our kids when they first come to the site and we drop them off in the woods for a camping trip. The bugs are a lot to handle. for some of our

[3:08]  kids is the first time seeing the stars at night because they've grown up in the concrete jungle. So, that type of exposure was new to me as a youth, but I immediately fell in love with the the power of the trees and nature. And I hope the audio is okay because there's a whole bunch of geese coming and landing on the lake right now. Yes, let's hear those. Now, I think this is cool. You talk about seeing the stars. I recently moved out more out into where there's not the city and not the bright lights and I can actually walk outside now and see hella stars outside. And I thought, how cool is it? You know, like it makes me so happy to know that I'm not stuck in a city where I don't see, you know, the the the the stars or anything. And there's something there. I mean, I'm to the point where I want to get a

[3:55]  telescope now. Like, who who would have thought I want a telescope? I don't know. I don't know if that's a dad thing or what's really going on here, but I'm I'm definitely into that. So, I'm pretty sure are the kids fascinated when they see these stars and they're outside and seeing these things for the first time. Like, what are some of the reactions that you hear or some of the things that you're you're hearing? Definitely. I have a a wonderful story of one of our staff being on canoe trips. So, when they are in year three and four, they're going into the remote wilderness or the back country on a canoe trip for a week or more. So, that means they're carrying their pack with all their food. They're cooking their meals over a fire. They're sleeping in tents. They're even portaging a canoe, which means you've got to carry your boat from a water system to the next and transfer through land. So, it's pretty cool. You get these young people who are carrying giant canoes on their head and um and

[4:45]  being out there and counting on one another for their survival and that sense of community. And and you know, numerous times this has happened, but a really exciting story of the kids seeing shooting stars and just like screaming and jumping around like, "Oh my god." And waking everybody up in the night because there was so many shooting stars coming.

[5:09]  You have this background, the unique background I would say, that's in psychology and outdoors. How has that really shaped the way that you're leading, especially leading young individuals today? Right. I think that we are all incredible beings that have all the answers to our problems within ourselves and that nature is really such an important tool or modality for us to connect with ourselves and with one another. And uh and then in terms of psychology, you know, I'm really fascinated by how our brains are neuroplastic and we're consistently growing and changing. So the merging of the two fields is feels very natural to me. If you're going to be outside connecting with yourself, connecting with nature, they're just uh mirror images of yourself to give you feedback.

[6:01]  So many people like you know how people say there's there takes a village. Well, trails build a damn forest. Village is what the y did. And you guys are literally giving kids a a second chance, per se. Um, what's so different about what Trails is doing that people may not even realize until they see it up close?

[6:19]  Mhm. What makes Trails so special is that consistent long-term preventative approach. So, we're grabbing youth when they're 11, 12 years old and then we're staying with them for seasons, four years for life. And it's having this 360 wraparound holistic approach to their wellness. So, they're physically coming up to the campsite and staying over one weekend a month and throughout the summer. And then throughout their entire journey, you know, they're learning um outdoor wilderness skills like the canoeing, learning to swim, and then in the winter it's skating and cross-country skiing. What's really special is the opportunity for us to use those activities as a vessel to teach life's deeper lessons in conflict resolution, non-violent communication,

[7:08]  leadership, and resiliency. And we're doing it in small groups. We want to have a big impact on a few rather than a little on many. So, we're going deep with all these youth. And the staff are consistent, caring, stable adults who continue to show up for them. That makes a huge, huge difference. and and there's no phones, all nature.

[7:30]  What kind of shift do you see in the kids when you say, "All right, no screens. We're just nature today." Yeah. You know what? Sometimes, um, they're not my biggest. You guys can see that Mel is out of the word, so that's why we're losing. Oh, there we go. We got you back, Mel. Oh, darn the trees. Uh, such a beautiful day, but the internet can come and go.

[7:54]  Hence why the phones get handed in when the kids arrive. Um, you know, begrudgingly they hand them in. Some kids have burner phones that they try to hide so they can stay connected with their their peers or keep their streaks up or what have you. Um, but a lot of the kids reflect on how handing in technology is a is a respit for them that when it comes the end of their session and they're going to go home and we hand back out all their valuables, some of them have a moment of okay, am I ready to go back home now?

[8:26]  Am I ready to get back in it? So, there's definitely a mini existential crisis because identity and community is so embedded in technology now for youth. But it doesn't take them long to connect deeply and socialize and play and laugh together when they're not distracted by that type of content. You know, as I sit here and I continue to look at your background, people may think it's fake, but it's so real. Like this is where she's staying at. She's in the damn cabin in the wilderness. Okay.

[8:58]  I love it. I love it. I can only imagine that you probably get on and people will ask you, "Is that is that a real background?" Um, but it is. you are part of it deeps deeprooted in it that you actually own the property that you guys bring the kids into. Is that correct? That's right. Yeah. We're on 365 acres of beautiful forest and trails. There's two lakes and we have a long winding driveway that brings you into the space which really helps you to ground and become mindful and present in what you're about to walk into. It's um right now spring, so we've started tapping all the maple trees to collect the maple syrup, which will put on pancakes for the rest of the year. All of the animals are starting to come back in. And nature is just such a beautiful opportunity to see the seasonality of things. You know, she will um it was

[9:48]  20°, so it's hot hot day yesterday, and then by 5:00 p.m. we got a snowstorm. Um Oh my god. Now it's pretty much melted again. But that fluctuation is um I think just a a really neat tool to teach the kids too about being outside, things are happening outside of our control all the time. All we can do is change how we react to it. So instead of going, "Oh my gosh, it was so nice out and now I've got to get my winter coat back out. This is ridiculous." Uh it stopped. Whoa, look at the snow. What a nice little treat. our final sprinkle before spring rolls in in full four.

[10:26]  Summer's here. Uh so it's it's looking around and trying to be present and ground yourself. And we do a lot of grounding uh or meditation moments like breath work or yoga, taichi, um even physical activities like I don't know wall sits or push-ups. And we're trying to do that proactively with the kids so that they're learning this type of emotional regulation so that at later times when they're triggered or behavior is increasing they're able to to check themselves sematically take space from the group if that's what needed or at school or within family and transfer those skills they're learning at trails into everyday life about okay I'm getting elevated I need to bring myself down how can I soant appropriately

[11:13]  Yeah, which is so important. Um, especially when kids are going through things like I was one of those that grew up with anger issues. They even know I had them, you know, but and it's because like you mentioned, I didn't know how to write. I just went zero to 100. I didn't know the in between. So, what you guys are doing at Trails is really helping them in that in between moment. Hey, you don't got to go, you know, zero to 100, you know, and no one should allow no one could bring you to that moment. You do that to yourself, right? And that's one of the things that we learn is like no one makes you mad. um you allow people to to get you to that point. Um I really want to talk about because people may not know is how are you getting this maple syrup? For those that don't even know how this is happening, talk to us.

[11:52]  I want to know. The people want to know. The people need to know how we So the maple trees, we drill a hole in the south or west side where the sun's facing. Um, and that's a neat experience because some kids have never held a power tool and um, they they drill it and then we put a little tap in and a bucket on the side and then you can hear it drip sap throughout the day.

[12:14]  We collect the sap and we pour it into an evaporator which is a over an open fire to boil it down because you have to collect about 45 to 50 liters of sap to make a liter of syrup. So, it's a long process, but it smells amazing in the forest. It tastes great after the fact. And it's just another um you know, amazing way to connect and be outside.

[12:40]  It's It's nature's gold really. Yeah, I love it. I love it. I never experienced it, but I It just sounds I'm an outside type of person, you know? I love plants. I mean, I'm not in a forest or anything. I mean, even though my backyard low-key looks like a forest, um, I got so many trees back there and I'm at that point actually with my backyard. It's like, how do I make my backyard look like I'm in a forest? Like, that's how much I care for it, right? Because just imagine that experience. So, I like what you guys are doing and and we we haven't even talked about you also cover post secondary cost. Was that correct? Is Right. And that's not just an impact, that's like life-changing. Why was that such an important part for for you to actually include in what you guys are doing? 100%. It's it's mission critical.

[13:21]  If our goal is to create contributing members of the community and we've been, you know, imbuing all of these youth with the skills and the confidence to go out into the world and we say, "You can do anything. You can be anything." And I firmly believe all youth deserve that opportunity. Then it came time if they wanted to go to post-secary, boom, another huge barrier. And majority of our youth are coming from um marginalized, underserved communities.

[13:47]  they've got barriers in the community with um violence, poverty, food scarcity. Um so the idea of sometimes going to postsecary, this will be the first generation to achieve that. And if you're not seeing yourself in a role uh or or seeing others that look like you being able to accomplish these things, that can feel impossible. But we're exposing the youth all the time to these types of career paths or educational pursuits. So when um when they want to go to postsecary, they apply to the trails bery. Right now we're supporting 70 students to go to post-secary, college, university, masters. There's a huge array of what the kids want to study. And financial barrier is such

[14:38]  such an overwhelming systemic issue and that can really be the barrier to stop you. So, we're providing the finances and beyond that they're getting a mentorship meeting minimum quarterly and they're chatting with their mentor who's a volunteer about their transcript, their school grades, but also about how they're doing. Just to have someone have a real conversation who cares about you, how's your mental health? We're seeing those rates skyrocket of challenges with mental challen mental health challenges.

[15:07]  Hey, real quick. If you're enjoying the podcast, we first want to say thank you and we also just want to give you a little insight of what we're up to at Francis. Some even realize that we're working with organizations to help them use AI to create that real human communication experiences where that's actually supporting your your families, those patients or the entire community.

[15:28]  We're actually creating tech that connects. Check it out. Francis.ai. Yeah. I love that we're in a space, you know, where mental health has become so much more of a conversation, you know, because for a long time, and I'm not sure if you experienced it, but growing up, we didn't talk about it, right? Things that were happening at home, it was just like it stays at home and and not even because it stayed in your head.

[15:54]  There was just no having conversations. You know, your mom didn't want to hear it. People wouldn't understand. Um, you didn't want to look like you were you don't want to feel judged. You're not really having these conversations at home. So, what you guys are are doing is pretty cool. And then you also in a place where you go from 500,000 to 2.5 million, really doubling the youth support, which is an $18 return per dollar. Let me say this, most nonprofit businesses or for-profit businesses would dream of that. How do you actually scale something so powerful without losing your soul? Like, let's be honest.

[16:26]  This ain't this ain't nothing that is just easy. How do you get there? Thank you. And I lost my soul for a bit along the way. Uh I mean strong believers and ambassadors, people who will show up for you and believe. And when our donors um they were really some of the big pushers for us to scale and grow. We know that Trails works. It's not rocket science. If you show up for a kid and you invest in them, you're creating the leader of tomorrow.

[16:56]  And so why can't we do more? there's no shortage of youth throughout the greater Toronto area that need this type of support and uh you know why not can we do it and I think we have a long history of folks saying yeah that's not possible no one's doing that um so we said okay we'll be an accredited school so the youth can earn high school credits while they're here and 99% of our kids are finishing high school far above a national average for their demographic and then 90% of those kids also choose to go to postsecary and then complete post-secary and and 90% of our alumni over 600 of them are contributing members of the community. So I think when our strong ambassador group and donors were looking at it saying this

[17:44]  works we need to do more and I said I agree but but we need some money. So then that's where the campaign began and we found really strong support of individuals who understand and align with our values and can see how much of a difference it makes. You know, I've had youth say coming to Trails is the first time they've ever felt seen or if it wasn't for Trails, I would either be in jail or dead. And so for a a donor not to know these individuals but to understand the nuances of their life and the impact this investment of them makes that's a gamecher and there's a lot of heart with trails. It's it's human connection. It's people first. It's

[18:30]  believing in one another. And we keep putting that forward and people want to be a part of that. You mentioned heart. How do you even balance the hard work with the hard work? Especially as you mentioned when you get into that fundraising because it gets real. Like fundraising is a sales job. You know, people don't realize it for the for-profit that means you're good at sales or you better be good at sales because in reality the only way that we're able to survive as as nonprofits is that we're receiving those donations. How do you continue to balance that? Oh, the heart and the heart. I like that. It it is challenging. We've got an incredible team. you know, we've got about 45 staff who are delivering the the frontline programming to our staff and are helping with the admin and the back end and that

[19:18]  fundraising. So, stewarding our our donors is really important. Trying to include them in the story and understanding what's going on is is critical. I think that the majority of people I get to meet and talk to trails about, they they ask more questions. They're genuinely interested. I think they can sense the passion from me and others on the team and our alumni when they chat with them.

[19:45]  And and that goes such a long way. So I never force trails, you know, to anybody. I managed to, you know, incorporate into most conversations because I feel so strongly about the work we are doing and and and so I just follow the people that tend to be more interested um and and work alongside them. I love it. And and you're not your typical leader, right? I'm I'm pretty sure, and I say that in a sense of, and let's be honest, a lot of nonprofit leaders are probably 10, 20 years older than us. And and I can only imagine that when people see you as their that leader that they're probably a little taken back. Have you received that? How do you even overcome

[20:32]  things like that? I know you see in people's eyes when they look at you like there's no way. Yeah, definitely. Especially because when I started I was 26 and I was the youngest person in the room. I was often the only female in the room. I'm definitely the only one who came from that type of community in the room. And that would feel intimidating to me. But again, my mentor Hurst just could see all the potential, my drive, the unique skills and and really invited me in that space and gave me or showed me how to have my voice in that room.

[21:06]  and it doesn't phase me as much anymore. I think that um there's there's a lot of trust and respect for me in those spaces, although they can be intimidating and and often these you know our our Toronto Bay Street is where the billionaires play as our financial district. Those spaces can feel very intimidating. But what I've noticed is they are very interested in what we do at trails and passionate about it and genuinely curious and they'll ask me questions like my teenager is doing this, what can I do or um you know how are you managing people because that heart and heart again it can be really tough to to be in the not for-profit

[21:53]  world or the social impact sector. It's really hard working with marginalized youth. It's important work. It's meaningful, but it is hard. And a lot of our staff, we've got to work to prevent that emotional burnout or the drain and fatigue. Similarly, with the fundraising, that's a grind every day. You're counting on other people to donate, to invest in in your program.

[22:17]  And you know, there's this there's this constant pain in my heart like, okay, can we do it? Yes, we've got to grind. We're going to hustle. We're going to make this happen. Um, but that can that's a lot of weight to carry because it feels like carrying these really important young people into the future. Yeah. No, I I I hear you on that. Um, and it's good that you have people that are like-minded part of your staff that have that uh that heart, that have that passion. It's so important um that people remember why they've been doing it, right? Because I think that's where people get lost and it just becomes like I'm just doing just com out of being comfortable. But when people realize they're doing it because they're changing lives, like there's such a big impact there and people are going to really care more of it because let's be honest, it's not I'm pretty

[23:05]  sure you experienced it. It's not about us anymore, right? Like we're I mean at least me I'm about to be 35 this year. I got kids and I'm like it's not about me. It's about what can we really do to make an impact for kids that were like us that experienced maybe that loneliness. Uh kids that were for me I was adopted so kids that experienced adoption. You mentioned kids that never experienced the wilderness. Like those are some of I've I think I mentioned to you never been fishing, never been camping, never like all these things I've never done because I didn't have that dad or that family I ever wanted to. Funny story now where actually my mother-in-law because I said this, she decided to book a uh a I didn't even know Disney does this, but you can go and camp at Disney. It's like they have their own campground. So, we're about to go camp at Disney, right?

[23:49]  She said, "Yeah, we got to bring our own food and you know, all this." And I'm like, "Oh, that's what we're doing." Like, all right, I'm kind of low-key excited about this. But to know that my daughter gets to also experience this, right? Like, it's not about us. It's about the experience that we're going to leave for our kids. Is there is there a story or or a kid where you just thought like, "Yeah, this is this is why we keep going." Did you you Who comes to mind?

[24:12]  Yeah, I mean countless. So, I just have to pick pick one. Um go I mean, I'm I'm endlessly inspired and motivated by our kids. They're coming from hard places. They're dealing with such difficult realities and they continue to show up. So that can be um and the bravery that it takes to try new things even. So from that nature perspective, we've got a low ropes and an in and an aerial course like a high like a rock climbing type of program. So um dealing with fear of heights, it can be a reality. You know, putting on your harness like I don't think I can do this. And then what fears that bring up in your in just your being of who you are like, uh wow, I'm feeling triggered. I do not want to climb this

[25:00]  thing. But then to have someone with a helping hand reach out and guide you up this aerial course, which is very similar to what had happened to me when I was a kid, being up in the trees 60 feet up, harnessed in and told to go across this element, which was impossible in my mind. Absolutely impossible. I have always been uh, you know, very confident and wanting to try new things and I froze. There was no way I was doing this.

[25:29]  And then more at the time embarrassing, I started crying. I was just system overload. And I thought, there's no way I can do this. No way. And my peers are watching me. But then one of the staff, we just chilled for probably 10, 15 minutes in the tree together. He let other people go past. And we were just talking about dogs, things I like. And and eventually he put his hand on my back. He's like, "Okay, Mel, we're going to do this now. I think you got it." And I believed him. And I did it and I went across and it was so scary. Um, but when I got to the other side, I was just overjoyed and I thought, if I can do that, oh, I can do anything. And a lot of our kids are having that moment throughout time, whether it's on the high ropes or it's canoeing or it's

[26:17]  swimming after they've, you know, it's taken years for us to get them in the water because they've been exposed to someone drowning and they don't know how to swim. So, we've got this luxury of a long-term relationship where we can scaffold the learning. Um, you know, this each year we award an alumni with the Hurst Legacy Award, an alumni who's living truest to our mission of giving back to the community.

[26:42]  And one of our recipients talks about how when they first came to Trails, they couldn't control their anger. You know, they were always getting into fights. they felt they needed to be funny and um and the the class clown for attention. And then by the end they were able to regulate that emotion, show up for others in a way that wasn't to impress, but to be a a kind, good friend. And um and now in life, you know, this one of these individuals has gone the whole way, has completed their PhD, is now a professor teaching about black masculinity in youth. So has really done the full circle and just trying to pay it forward.

[27:25]  That's so cool. There's you talked about the class clown, the you know the trouble in school. That sounds like me, right? Probably like a lot of us. But no, um just to know that you guys are able to bring the good out of someone and that is the life. Like that's a game changer for some people is to have that experience. It's to have that one person believe in them cuz sometimes it just takes that one person to believe in them. Like someone believe that you'll make it across, right? And and that kind of probably check change the trajectory for for how you even move today. The confidence that you have when you're in these rooms with, you know, probably bigger leaders, but that doesn't mean anything to you because you understand that we're all human at the end of the day. But it's how we deal and how we communicate. Like those are important key points to be quite frank. Um I'm

[28:12]  loving this. I'm loving this conversation and you've been doing this now I think you said 10 years right about 10 years about a decade now. Um what are some of the things that you've implemented into trails that you're just very happy and you want to share about because I can only imagine 10 years you made huge changes. Um what are those changes you made? Wow. Well, we've more than doubled the amount of youth that we're bringing into the program and more than tenfold expanded the alumni initiatives and resources. So, you know, very proud. We physically had to build the new cabins to house the kids and professionalize a lot of our materials in order to be able to deliver and scale in that way. I think the the growth in the alumni program has been

[28:58]  really momentous. Creating partnerships with other charitable organizations with with corporations or family foundations, not just from a financial donation perspective, but from the lens of how can we work together, especially with the other charitable organizations if they're also youth-based. Can we collaborate and bring your youth into nature because this is a really special healing modality. Can we um share some of our resources? So often charities are duplicating efforts and operating as silos. And I think there's a bit of a scarcity mindset or this competition between other charities of losing donors or it's such a hard fight. But I have found that the more we partner and share, the the more we grow together and

[29:48]  even the easier it's been for things like fundraising or partnerships. sharing certain materials um you know legal documents. What is our standard operating policy on self harm or suicidal ideiation? Well, we've spent a lot of time on this. We've worked with adviserss and professionals. Can we support your organization with that? So, I think the growth in our partnership has been really important and and mainly the work with our youth that's growing, the expansion that's been critical. I'm most proud of how we've been able to handle that. And our team like that the the full-time staff who are showing up every day and through a pandemic where we remained open and in 100% contact with our kids the whole time. They are diehard, passionate, hardworking, and

[30:39]  it's a demanding role when you've got to manage, you know, 40 kids, a bunch of staff just in one weekend and all the activities. They do it with grace and passion and self-reflection and they keep showing up because they really, really believe. So, I think cultivating that team of individuals who are the right cultural fit for Trails, that's been something I'm very proud of.

[31:04]  Love it. And I always tell people, I love how leaders always like to kind of rub it off on somebody else, but you're the engine that drives that car. So, a lot of it is you and what you bring and how you show up. Like, that's the important part, right? That's that's what makes you that true leader. And now you have staff that just sees your mission. You have supporters and you have the, you know, people that want to I'm sitting here like, do you have a any spot for like a guest volunteer? Because maybe I can spend some time, right? Like I I I could I can help volunteer and be with the kids, you know, climb like I'm about it, you know. I'm just saying Canada's not too far. Um I want to get to talk about mental health. We we kind of a little bit talked about it.

[31:42]  February and March kind of hit different, right? Especially for the kids facing these big uphill battles, but what's really what's really going on during those months? And how do you lead your team through that February and March time? That's right. consistently we trend to have a higher amount of disclosures of challenges going on at home for our youth. Um the like violence at home, physical abuse, emotional, sexual violence, that type of disclosure may come up more. I think for us in in Canada, the less sunlight, you're indoors a lot more when it's this cold out. So that can lead to just increased time being forced to be in a confined space. Some of our kids are living, you know, in social housing with um multiple generations of family, lots of siblings

[32:31]  all in one home. So, that's a lot to be under one roof. Yeah. Um and then add on potential seasonal effective depression or disorder to the mix. So, we've got this increase in challenges. Um, and that can be really sad, hard to deal with. But at the base of it, every time one of our youth shares something with our staff, one of the first things I say to the staff is, "Wow, thank you for showing up for this young person. They trust you so implicitly that they're able to share their their darkest demon and be seen and held and and we may not always be able to fix it. We triage care out to um therapists

[33:19]  or different organizations when it's outside of our scope at trails. But to be there as that consistent person makes a a huge difference and for the kids to have that trust in an organization to know Trails is going to show up for me. You know, I've been um I've been the I've received phone calls from the hospital as an emergency contact for alumni I've never met and they don't know me but they know Trails and so they've put on their form who's your emergency contact trails. someone from Trails will come and someone from Trails will come and um and we will be there for them because they're family and a lot of our kids talk about this space um as their home and the people the peers in their group as their family. So I think it's reminding our staff and the

[34:07]  kids that like nature in that storm things are going to come and go and there's es and flows but you need to hang on because things will change and they will improve. So, if you're stuck in that really low place, um, please reach out. Someone will be there for you. I love it. And how do you even teach, you talked about the emotional regulations going on and and just there's just so much going on at home at times. How do you even teach the emotional regulation when some of these kids have never had safety or stability in their homes and in their lives? Must be hard work. Like, how how do you come across with that? You know, a lot of it is showing up as a caring, stable adult that they can co-regulate to. So, it might be something tangibly like, "Hey,

[34:55]  can we do some breathing together? Let's try to do a box breathing. Let's breathe in for 4 seconds and hold for 4 seconds. Yeah, use your finger and go down. Exhale." Um, in the moment of crisis, maybe that's it. Maybe they just want to be alone and they need some space. And that's rare, too, especially in a traditional traditional schooling for our youth. Um, you know, many don't tend to excel in traditional schooling. Um, even something like ADHD where you're told you got to sit still, you have to work. Um, or with autism, you have to make eye contact with your teacher. At trails, it's like, does that stuff really matter? That's that's actually just put the human first. And if you need to stand up and j your legs or you keep your eyes down, that's totally appropriate. Whatever feels best. Um, so to that that lens of um, meeting the

[35:44]  kids where they're at is is so helpful when it comes to that emotional regulation. And we're teaching it in a curriculum format over years. So when they're 12, we're just talking about can we identify feelings, good feelings, bad feelings, and accepting all feelings as valid and normal human responses. So it is okay to be angry. Anger is a really scary thing, but that's a human thing to feel anger. Now, that's okay, but it's not okay to punch someone or the wall.

[36:14]  It's not okay to scream at somebody. Sometimes that may happen. And if it does, we need to cycle back. And because these kids are with the same group of peers for their four years for life, there's no running away from these sort of conflicts. You can't skip out on it. you show up the next weekend and we go, okay, now we got to sit down and address it. So, it's usually the, you know, three people in the room and it's a facilitated discussion and we call it vamping to vom it out. So, you vent and then you own, you're accountable to your part. Um, then M is mile, walk a mile, it's empathizing, and then P is for plan. So, how are we going to work together here? May not be best friends, but we need to be respectful of one another. So, we're approaching it in a variety of ways. and often when people

[37:02]  aren't triggered so that you can build on that skill. I love it. And and and you've seen real trauma, I totally imagine, right? You've been doing this for some time. How do you not let that break you down over time? I find it helpful to do some guided visualizations to try to compartmentalize stories for the kids. Um I journal. I dance. I try to let my body release it. You know, I think um great book by Bessel Vandercock called The Body Keeps the Score. And so when you've got trauma and it's stored inside you and it's not released, what what happens to it? And it can fester and it can cause illness. And um and so

[37:51]  things need to be released. And that might be talking to a a friend. It might be you, you know, when you're leading an organization that can feel isolating or lonely at times. And I think a lot of those partnerships we've built, I found a lot of comfort in having other leaders resonate often commiserate in in what I'm sharing and have similar experience and just to be held in the space the same way we're holding it for the kids and then the staff and then sometimes they go, "Oh, nobody's holding me."

[38:20]  Um, but then I've got a board of directors and our chair, Greg Clark, who's wonderful. And sometimes I'll I'll just phone, he'll say, "Are you are you looking to vent? Uh, are you looking for advice?" I said, "I just I just want to vent for a minute." Yeah. And that has a space, too, and it can help reframe your thinking.

[38:40]  That That's funny you you asked that. I I've realized I've been very I'm always one that wants to help, but sometimes people just want to vent. So, when I have a friend that calls me, um, we're both in this just business world and he's just calling me with all these things and I want to give him ideas. I ask that same question. Are you just do you want to know what I have to say or you just telling me? I just need to know before I start opening my mouth because not everyone wants the reply, right? I just wanted to get it out and move on. I don't want to have this conversation much longer. So, it's so funny. It it you have to do it, you know. um a very I love that you also practice what you preach and that's where people I can only see um you as a better leader for the organization because you're practicing what you preach. You're not just sitting here and just doing the work. No, you're doing the work that

[39:27]  you're telling the kids to do as well, right? You're kind of leading by example. So, I definitely like that. I want to talk about be we're about to wrap it up here, but I want to talk about um AI a little bit. It's knocking on every nonprofit's door, but Trail is about unplugging. So, how do you even honor your mission while also adapting to to the times? Yeah, it's tough. When I first joined, it was we are against social media. We will not engage. And I went, that's not realistic. We need to have a platform. We're trying to get donors. We also need staff. We want our youth and their parents to trust us. We need some form of platform. So, it it's tough to balance both because we do have an online presence uh on Instagram or Facebook, LinkedIn. um or trails.ca for the website, but um so there's a reality

[40:16]  that you need to do these things. And then the other really important critical part in the in the programming and our operations is how can we still give skills to our youth but protect them and give them a space that's an escape from that world. So it is scary to hand in your phone. Um but but there's a lot of good that can come from being disconnected and increasing your connection to nature and a ton of research on the health benefits of being in nature and away from this addiction.

[40:50]  Um now with AI we've taken a lens organizationally that we see it as an amazing benefit to streamline some of our inefficiencies to support with data entry to help craft some messaging and then on the same token we're being um cautious about where where it can go and how we want to move with it. Um, I think overall we're trying to turn down the noise in our world and and AI and the automations in some ways turning up the noise. So I keep pointing my phone away from me. This damn phone right here staring at me all the time.

[41:32]  So immensely helpful. And my goal is that if we can increase our efficiencies and adopt AI practices, then can we increase our human connection? because that's really the scarcity that's happening. Um, if we can improve how we're doing things so that we can free up time instead of just taking on more work. I want us to free up time to do that good important work which is human connection first.

[41:59]  Love it. Yeah. Yeah. 100% agree. I I do, you know, I love that you're still using as a tool, as a resources. It's not taking anything away. Um, you mentioned, I think last time, just making sure there's those those policies in place when it comes to AI. Um, making sure we're not crossing the line with tech because we still want to keep remain human, right? Keep that human. Um, so I I do like it and I love that you do the digital detox. I think that's such a a good thing for kids. I just every time I'm outside playing with my daughter out in the world, right, in the front line, we're going scooter, we're going bike.

[42:32]  You just don't see that often, you know, and even I have to be very mindful because you can easily take your daughter outside but still be on the phone. So, I make sure that I'm not on my phone because I don't want her to see that. Let's play outside. This is a fun part. And you see how excited she is.

[42:46]  Dad, can we go outside? Cuz she knows that I'm going to be, you know, plus she's young. You got to watch them. They just run all over the place. But it's what we want. We want her to have that time. Not the tablet time, not the always watching TV. Um, but even just sometimes walking with her and asking questions, how was your day? You know, and she'll sit here and tell me every she's only four years old and she'll sit here and tell me her good day, you know, part of the days and and her bad part of the days and by the end of it she's like, man, this is the best walk ever, you know, and it's those little things and it's like, oh man, like I could do this over and over. Um, I love it. We're going to start wrapping up here and but I want to paint a a picture. There's a kid right now who doesn't even know trolls exist, but they truly need it.

[43:27]  What do you want to say to the person who could help make that connection happen? Wow. I think to that individual or the youth or the family, if there's a CAS worker, a teacher, um, therapist, caregiver, for them to realize that resources exist and there's a different possibility and future out there. um so they can make a formal application with with Trails Online or reach out to us to learn more and um and now our our program is long term. So it's a big it's a big commitment. It's not for every youth to be able to say, "Yeah, I'm going to give uh every weekend for the next four years and my summer to this program." So you've really got to

[44:13]  believe in it. But we've got the the proof in our impact and um and know that that there is a different path forward where there's there's people who are going to love you and care for you and give you some amazing fun adventures that are playful and and adventurous to try new things. Mel, you can't do this forever. So, in one sentence, what's the legacy you hope leaves behind?

[44:46]  Wow. Wow. I I think it already is leaving it behind and I hope it continues to, but the legacy of of giving to others. Love it. All right. Well, this is the blind question time. Are you ready? Oh, okay. I didn't prep you for this. This wasn't one unpopular truth. Uh, what what's one unpopular truth about working with youth or leading a nonprofit that most people don't have the guts to say out loud? Ooh, sorry. The hot seat, you know, cuz you're out in the cold somewhere. So, I I think everybody who wants to run um an organization is in it because they love the mission and what they're doing. So, I love working with youth. I love the outdoors. And you know, I had no idea that I'd have to do so much budgeting and planning and

[45:33]  performance improvement evaluations and um with our our CRA and the auditings that that have to take place for a charity, it is not fun. It's it's so arduous. It takes a lot of time and it sucks my soul. But then I can go back out and be with the kids and uh and have a little paddle or a canoe and I go, "Okay, I understand this is why it exists." But man, managing all of that, it's not very fun. I'll give it away any day. Yeah. Where where's my secretary? I need someone to No, I hear you on that.

[46:07]  I hear you. Um what is your blind question for the next guest leader that we have here on the podcast? Oo, I think it's going to be if if you could um go back 10 years and talk to your younger self, what advice would you give them to help you in your current day? Love it. All right. Listen, Mel, this has been We could definitely talk.

[46:29]  We're like 45 minutes in and great conversation. I love what you're doing. I love the mission. For those that are still watching, if you guys are are wanting to know more about it, what websites, what's the social media platforms they can actually visit? Mo trails.ca. CA and Trails Youth. Love it. Well, guys, you guys heard it here from a another amazing leader in the nonprofit space, Miss Mel. It has been a pleasure. Thank you guys so much. And if you're still watching, make sure you guys are sharing, subscribing, and tune in for another great conversation with another leader on the next one. Heart and Hustle Podcast. Erain. Catch you guys on the next one. Lers.