From Food Stamps to $50M CEO: Step Forward's Dr. Chisholm's Incredible Journey

[0:16]  Welcome back to another episode here on the Heart Hustle Podcast. Our next leader, I remember Dr. Jacqueline Schism. Is that correct?

[0:24]  Chisum.

[0:25]  Chism.

[0:25]  Like Chism Trail or Shirley Chisum.

[0:27]  Got it. See, that's why we're going to call you Dr. Jackie, that's what she wanted me to call. So, that's we're going to go keep it there. No. Uh, when I was speaking to Angela, which is uh one of your colleagues, she she mentioned that you had to watch her mother cry before because she made $5 more dollars for so she couldn't get too much help, right? That that moment really kind of le left me because I understand it as as a mom that's trying to do everything and then can't get help because they're making just a little bit more. What do you learn from that moment? I'm pretty sure at that age probably wasn't getting it, but now you're you're a mom. You're a woman. You're in the space. What does that really mean to others that are in the space as well?

[1:04]  Well, um, first let me thank you for the opportunity just to have the conversation. Um, at the time when things happen, you don't always understand the meaning of them. It wasn't until almost 40 years later that it made sense. So, let me go back a little bit. Um, we grew up my my mother was a victim of domestic violence. My father was the person who did it. When she decided to walk away, all of a sudden, we were eligible to receive government assistance, but not food stamps. So, we could get the brick of bread, the brick of cheese, you know, uh when we didn't have meat, we would have mayonnaise sandwiches and um mustard sandwiches and those kinds of things. I remember though, there were two times that she cried. The first was when she lost a really dear friend and the second time she was sitting on the bed and she said, um, I can't get food stamps because I made $5 too much. And she's holding herself and hugging, you know, kind of rocking and saying, how am I going to feed my family? And so I remembered that and you know 40 40 50 years later I'm in the position of of interviewing for this job and we work with low-income families. You know people who most of our clients are working poor have two jobs to make one paycheck and I remember what it was like watching my mother struggle. My father refused or I I don't you know I can't speak for him. I'll just say that he was supposed to pay child support, hardly ever did. He was too busy traveling the country doing other stuff. And so my mother was left trying to take care of three girls on her own. Um, and one of the decisions that she ultimately made was to marry an alcoholic. That's a whole other conversation that we can have. But, you know, like I said, almost 50 years later, I'm in a position where I'm interviewing for for the role of CEO for an organization that works for low-inccome families. And all I had to do is remember I remember what that was like. You know, I I encourage anybody to find the thing you're passionate about. I'm passionate about helping families and helping people like my mom. Not just because I've had that experience, but who wouldn't want to do that?

[3:23]  Correct. Yeah. Yeah. Correct. I I um you know, someone asked me recently and I think you could probably attest to this is they say, "Is leadership taught or are you born a leader?" And I said, "I think life taught me to be a leader."

[3:40]  Yeah.

[3:41]  All the all the things I had to overcome, the sexual abuse, the adoption. And I think you've also had to overcome a couple of things in your life. And that's what makes you the great leader. I mean, you're kind of telling me how you're a doctor, but don't call you doctor. I can call you Jackie. It's like, girl, you worked hard for this, right? And you're just so humble about it. So, do you think that this is leadership? Is this something that is is taught as you you know, life experiences or do you think people are born with leadership?

[4:07]  Um, like you, I think it's it's a combination. There are some people who really should not be leaders. And the reason I say that is because too often it's about them. I think leadership is stewardship. So, as long as you understand that the reason that you're sitting in the seat is because there's something that you're supposed to do in the seat. And I've met too many people who forget that part and they get all caught up in the title of it and the glory of it and all of that. That's why I I try not to spend a whole bunch of time worrying about the title. What I really try to do is add value. And so I think it is a combination of the two. Um there's got to be some inherent thing in you that strives because part of leadership is you you have to be willing to put yourself out there when a lot of people won't.

[5:01]  Okay. So that that to me is part of leadership. You have to take the initiative. A lot of what you and I talked about and you know before we started recording is there's got to be something on the inside where you're not necessarily satisfied.

[5:17]  Mhm.

[5:18]  You know, and that's things keeps you going. My my sister used to joke um with me and with other people saying you never want to play a game with Jackie because she doesn't know how to lose well. And for a while, you know, I I took offense initially and I was like, "Well, well," and then one day I stopped and I said, "Hold up. You're absolutely right. You don't want to play with me. You going to be on my team if your plan is to lose cuz I don't approach anything with the expectation to lose." And I just never did. And for me, and I've said this to my team, if an A is possible, I've always wanted an A+.

[5:55]  So, I do think that that is part of leadership. But the other part that is taught is what does leadership mean and I had one of the best teachers um in one of my bosses when I used to work in a university and there was one day I was frustrated and I came to him because a lot of the work that I did there I had to work with other people I had to get it get things done through other people and I told him I said I don't have the authority to do this and he said I feel I failed as a leader if I have to lean on my authority Because leadership is influence.

[6:29]  Leadership is influence. And so as long as you understand that you must be influential. Thus, I think that's what and and you're doing this makes you not only a leader but an influencer in your space.

[6:43]  And so I do think it's a combination of the two.

[6:47]  I love it. And I love something else you mentioned early on. And what people don't realize is that we just been able to meet for the first time. So, it looks like we we've been vibing for a long time, but it's just the minutes, right? Um, but one thing that I heard earlier was you just had this feeling like God was talking to you on why to continue your education. Can you talk a little bit there? Cuz I'm I'm a believer. You know, you you get these feelings and people I love when someone says, "Uh, but I don't see the vision." Well, it's not your vision. God didn't give it to you.

[7:19]  Right.

[7:20]  Right. So, can we talk about why you start to do it, Dr. Jack? why you want to go get this doctorate.

[7:25]  Yeah. I mean, so, so let's go back a little farther than that. So, I'm first generation college student, right? I'm the middle child of three girls. Um, and in my family when I was younger, you know, middle children, we're always trying to find our way like who are you? Cuz you're not the oldest, you're not the youngest. And so, one day my mother, I think I was like six or seven, my mother said, "This is my oldest, my sister Karen. This is my youngest, my sister Barbara. And this is the smart one." The minute she said that, that's when I knew that was my place. And so I worked really hard to keep my place, right? So if I came home with a B, I was in tears. My mother was like, what's the problem? Cuz in my mind, I'm going, I have to be the smart one. All right. So in between life happening, I decided at the age of I want 19, 20. I was at Case Western Reserve. Like I said, first generation college student. No one could tell me how to do this in the family. No, nobody had a degree that I that I can remember. Um, and so you're making it up. You feel as if you're making it up as you go along. There was a program that they had, the TRIO program. It was called student support services and they were wonderful. But they were there for one whole year and then the university lost its grant. All of a sudden, I'm flying blind. I get married at the age of 20, 21 because I met a black man on campus who had green eyes with this huge afro. It was in the 70s. Okay. So like a you know

[8:48]  the green eyes got you huh?

[8:50]  Oh my black man green eyes. I was in lovelust. All right. So I this man in like I was fishing and then within six months I wanted to throw a boyfriend back. No disrespect to him. It just I I did it for the wrong reasons. I wanted to get out my mother's house. Like I said a black man, green eyes, all that other stuff. So I became suicidal in that marriage.

[9:15]  Wow. So in between, you know, I was married to him for almost 5 years. So in between that, when I couldn't, you know, when I couldn't afford school, I stopped and worked as a secretary at a hospital, Cleveland Clinic. Then when I could afford it again, I went back to school. It took me eight years to get that undergraduate degree. My first two years, so okay, I'm going to tell myself, first year I was on campus, uh, I learned to play bibis when I was in high school. Well, on campus, the black students played bid whis starting at 7 o'clock in the morning. Okay. I get to campus, I find my people. Oh my god. So, it's 7:00 in the morning. We're playing rise and fly. You know, people with the, you know, car stuck on their head. Well, I'm waiting for the bells to ring to tell me it's time to go to class. And I was like, don't the bells ring? And people said, Jackie, this is college bells don't ring here. I had missed all these classes.

[10:14]  Oh my gosh.

[10:15]  Anyway, so it took me eight years to get this under undergraduate degree. So the first two years I had like Thank God there weren't computers then, right? They weren't tracking it then. I should have been out of case West Reserve because of the grades I received freshman and sophomore year. So when I came back, kept going back and forth. I met with the dean and I told him, I said, "I wanted, you know, to go to med school." And he said, "Let me check your record." And then he said, "Can I be honest with you?" And I said, "Sure." He said, "Not with this you don't." I was like, "Oh, clutch the pro." But he asked me if he could be honest. And I knew he he had my my best interest at heart.

[10:54]  And so he told me that I couldn't get anything less than a B in the rest of these classes. And I hadn't taken the hard classes yet.

[11:01]  So by the by the time I finished my sophomore junior year, I would I made these lists. I knew what I needed to do. It was working hard. I knew what I needed to do. I just hadn't done it because of some other stuff, some decisions that I made. So, by the time I finished, you know, I was I was 25 years old and I wasn't even thinking about grad school at that point. And what happened to to your question, I kept having dreams about getting masters. People that I didn't know were talking to me about masters. It was on the television. And I finally said, "Okay, God, what am I?" And so I hear I kept hearing a and I laughed. I said, "They will laugh me out of the building. Did you see what I did in undergrad?" So what what wound up happening um at the time I was an admissions counselor, my job was to recruit um minority students in particular. So we had an event on a Saturday and it's called a a yield event. So once the student is admitted, you invite them to campus so they can see the campus and make a decision. People that I had never met before asked the question, "So what are you doing?" My colleague was on her way to Harvard uh to get her masters. And then this guy turned to me and said, "What are you doing?" And I said, "Well, I'm applying um to get my masters." I didn't know this man. We walked away. He found me at the end of the event and said, "How close are you to finishing that application?" Mind you, never met the man in my life. And then he said, "So what I hear you saying is that you're standing in your way." And I knew God sent him. And so that day, that was a Saturday, I went home. I finished that application. I dropped it off on Monday. And as they say, the rest is history. God allowed me to get and and what he what he helped me to understand was it really was his will for me to get this masters. But on the way to getting the masters, I had to do that comp. It's a six-hour comprehensive exam. It's called a comp exam. But you could either pass it and get your masters or high pass it and get into PhD program. I looked up and said, "Is that the kind of doctor you wanted me to do that?" And so I get to the exam. You needed a 9 to 12 to to high pass. I got a 9.12. I'm crushed. I'm crushed because I wanted at least an 11. Remember a

[13:27]  A+ and I heard in my spirit, what are you talking about? You're in. And I did like this. Oh yeah. Okay. I'm in.

[13:35]  That's it.

[13:36]  That's it. I'm in.

[13:37]  I already got there. Yeah. No, that's good. Um, a lot of people have given up. a lot of, you know, I I actually just having a conversation with a friend yesterday and I'm one of 10 in my biological family and I'm one of seven in my adopted family and um you know, everyone just lives a different life

[13:56]  and everyone has an opportunity to to either repeat the cycle or break the cycle

[14:02]  and I obviously chose to break the cycle. However, it comes with families still looking at you now like, "Oh, he got it. He got it all." not really understanding the hard work and still the struggle that you actually have to go through. Right. Uh and I love that there's voices but you listen to the right voices, right? Because that's also important is that there could be negativity. It could be the voices that kind of bring you down. And I've had to realize, you know, I I I have to stop talking to friends, the music I was listening to, all these different voices. So I ask you through all this journey, who was the person you were leaning on? Who was the person that was pouring into you to get this far in life? Um so I'll tell you that there were multiple people you know I can't say there was just one person I I will say that the most important person for the masters and PhD was my husband um because I wanted to quit matter of fact undergrad I wanted to quit and what I learned to do is to sit down and rest but it kept there was I was compelled you know there was that inner drive I needed to do this I didn't know why I just knew I needed to do it and so at different points in time. God brought me people to help me get through those rough periods. Like I said, I had become suicidal. Well, I was in school when that happened. And I wound up I was going to walk in front of a bus and the bus was coming. And all I remember hearing in my head was my mother's voice. Mother wasn't there at the time. I heard in my mother's voice, "If you kill yourself, you go to hell and you can't come out of hell." Okay. Well, I'm scared enough to go to hell. Um, and so I said, "Okay, great." So I wound up going back to my dorm because my husband and I were separated at the time. I went to my dorm and one of my roommates, who I don't even remember now, and I told her, I said, "You know what? I was going to kill myself. I got to figure out how to do it so God won't know, she walked me to the counselor." I don't even remember that period of my life. Okay? But I do remember what I've said to other people is with when you what you do is you have a tendency to push things away. It's like putting stuff in a drawer and it gets to the point where the drawer can't close anymore and then all of a sudden it's filled up. That's where my life was at. So I believe strongly in counseling. Counselor saved my life. Counseling saved my life. And so even now when things get difficult, I have a counselor on speed dial. I've got a cell phone. I have been on medication. I have no problem. And the reason I'm bringing this up is because I feel like some you're you're um any of your audience, but they may need to know it's okay. I love me enough that I in if I invest in other people, why wouldn't I invest in myself?

[16:45]  Amen.

[16:46]  So that's what I did. So every time things got difficult, it was God either spoke to me or he sent someone to me or there was somebody that I could lean on that I trusted. And I agree with you, not every voice is a good voice to hear.

[17:01]  Not every person needs to be around you. But in many cases, you know that when you start accommodating and making provision for people and you and you make yourself into a pretzel in order to have somebody in life, you probably shouldn't have that person in your life. if if they can't accept you the who you are, the good, the bad and ugly and all that other stuff. And I'm not saying that that we don't change, but if we change, it's because we choose to do that. People don't force me to change. I choose that. And I choose that usually because it's something beyond me that I want to attain or just, you know, something that I want to do. But I choose that for myself. You know, you you can't make me do that. Make anybody do that.

[17:48]  I man I do agree, doctor. And and I ask you because what happens is that people don't believe in themselves yet. Yeah.

[17:54]  Right. How do you lead someone who is not believing in themselves yet? And I'm pretty sure you've come across multiple people.

[18:00]  Oh, please. Efron. I I don't believe in myself on occasion. It's called imposttor syndrome.

[18:06]  Yeah.

[18:06]  Okay. So, I've been in this role. I'm the CEO of a $50 million company, 320 employees, and I still have moments where I go, can I do this? And then another voice go, what are you talking about? You've been doing it for, you know, eight or nine years. I do think that some of that to me has more to do with where you've come from and what support you had as you were growing. You know, like you talked about being adopted, right? So, there's a certain amount like with with me, it was abandonment. My father, he lived 15 minutes away from us and I I literally saw the man once or twice a year.

[18:45]  Okay. So, or or he would say he's on his way to pick us up and wouldn't show up. Everybody else was more important than we were. So, I learned to not feel valued. I learned to feel abandoned and rejected. that's still in there. And I'm 66 and that's still in there. I recognize it for what it is and I make provision for because I know that voice is there, but at least I now know where it comes from. Whereas if you were brought up in an environment, and this is one of the things I I admire by people who know who they are because they they got it when they were little, okay? We you and I had to build that. You know what I mean? We had to we had to figure that out and there's still cracks in it.

[19:32]  Yeah. All

[19:33]  right. But for people who were validated from the womb, it's a different experience for them. They have other challenges that you and I won't have. And it may be this issue of resilience.

[19:46]  We're resilient. You know, we've gone through a lot and we're still here. We're still standing. And we chose to contribute. We choose to share the story because they're people who could be helped by our experience. And God told me that years ago. He said that he wanted me to pay attention to the journey because he was going to send me people who needed to hear that there's life after whatever that is. Hey, real quick. If you enjoying the podcast, we first want to say thank you. And we also just want to give you a little insight of what we're up to at Francis. Some don't even realize that we're working with organizations to help them use AI to create that real human communication experiences. Whether that's actually supporting your your families, those patients or the entire community, we're actually creating tech that connects. Check it out. Francis.ai.

[20:40]  I People ask me all the time like life, how do you feel about everything that's happened to you? And I say grateful. I'm not the man I am today without that story. like, you know, I actually appreciate the story because as you mentioned, now I can share my testimony. You know how many times and probably for you as well, when you share a story, your story, and people will start to now open up.

[21:01]  Yep.

[21:01]  And they never told anybody.

[21:03]  It's not my work. This is God's work.

[21:05]  Exactly.

[21:05]  But it's so cool because it allows them to feel like they're not alone. And you know, I love these conversations because it is we all as leaders go through imposter syndrome because, as you mentioned, just what life may have brought us. And um I would tell you a year and a half ago I I've always been an entrepreneur. So even when I was working a corporate job running a restaurant, I was also owning a restaurant. So I would do their restaurant the day, mine's at night. But when life happened, I would always forget about me and go and help that other person. Right. And so it was in the company. So finally I said, you know what? I want to take the leap of faith and do me for the first time.

[21:40]  Yeah.

[21:41]  Because so many times it's about us helping others.

[21:44]  Exactly.

[21:44]  How do we help ourselves? Right. So, I was speaking to this leader that I um I met on I was on Undercover Boss. So, I met this guy really through Undercover Boss, but we've been friends all these years, even though he's in Connecticut, I'm in Florida, we still kept we still believe that one day we got to do a speaking tour. He overcame um addiction and now he's 40 plus years sober. People gave him chances after chances, right? He had a drug addiction and and obviously there was there's a story here. So anyway, I'm talking to him and I'm like, man, as you mentioned, sometimes I wake up. I was going to sleep sometimes like, did I make the right decision?

[22:16]  I left what was comfortable when I had a wife at home, a stay, she was a stay at home mom and two kids, a mortgage,

[22:24]  but faith was my word, right? I had to believe in myself. But there were still some times where I'm like, "Oh my god, what am I doing? Am I stupid?"

[22:34]  And he says, "Ephra, I've seen you build brands. I've seen you help others build brands and I think that sometimes we teach best what we need the most.

[22:42]  Earlier I told you know your worth is the brand.

[22:45]  He says you tell everybody to know their worth but when do you know yours right

[22:48]  and I was like that slap in the face like you're right you know and I had to keep telling myself those those type of things and I you mentioned sometimes having to um really dig within and figure out what are those scars and how do we heal them? I for the first time I was 30 31 years old when I felt for the first time I got to tell my mother that that adopted me even though I was adopted I was still going through that at home

[23:15]  right

[23:16]  for the first time had her let her feel let her know how I felt my whole life and it only was because I became a dad and I wanted to practice what I was preaching

[23:24]  yep

[23:25]  and I told I want my daughter to be able to speak her mind say whatever she got to say and never hold that for a very long time I felt like I couldn't

[23:33]  I couldn't at So what it was that my mom forgot my daughter's name

[23:38]  and that broke me

[23:39]  because I already felt unseen, unheard,

[23:43]  you know what I mean? So I had to let her know like, hey, that wasn't

[23:46]  that just bothered me.

[23:48]  Yeah.

[23:48]  And you know what? She told me that day and from that point on I realized she just did the best she could with what she had. She said exactly that actually. She said, hey, I'm so sorry. I never meant for your life to be the way it was and if I can go back and fix it, I will. But I was a mom with seven kids. Didn't graduate high school. And I wanted the best for my kids. And I did the best I could with what I had.

[24:09]  And I that's it.

[24:10]  Yeah.

[24:10]  That's it. You could only do the best you can with what you had. And and in hopes that you can go find those resources and things like that. So this is really important because sometimes there is resources that we don't even know exist.

[24:20]  Yeah.

[24:21]  Like a book that you've released. I'm pretty sure there's a lot of

[24:24]  resources in that.

[24:26]  Tell me why did you decide to write this book? What was the meaning behind it?

[24:29]  Because God told me to. It really is that simple.

[24:32]  I I kept hearing I need to write a book. I kept, you know, in my spirit. I kept hearing and and we talk about, you know, like how do you hear? And for me, it it was it was a journey. I knew when I was 12, I accepted um Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior. But me, God and I, we didn't have a whole bunch of conversations. Matter of fact, if it didn't work out the way I wanted it to work out, I didn't talk to him for years, you know. And what eventually happened was I've just felt this pull. I was looking for God everywhere. And what I learned was he was he was here. He was present. And so it kept coming up book book. And I kept saying, "What about it?" And that has been just for the most part almost every time I've heard God's voice. What about it? What do you what what do you want me to do? So he said, "I need to write a book." And I said, "God, there are millions of books. Why would one more book make a difference? I mean, and it it probably about four years of a conversation with God about that. So, what what eventually got it is I would do these presentations as part of the the role that I'm in now. When I got here, my predecessor went to prison u 5 months before I got here. Okay? And I reason I didn't want the job. That's a whole other conversation. I didn't want the job. God made me apply for a job. So I was doing a presentation uh as part of a national conference. At the end of the presentation um people would raise their hand and said, "Where can I buy your book?" And all that was for me was confirmation. Okay, God. Okay, I hear you. I hear you. All right. So I finally said, "Okay, most of faith is surrender. Surrendering what you want versus what God has for you."

[26:19]  So I surrendered. Okay, father, you want me to write a book? And what happened was the minute I surrendered, the title came, the chapter names came, and every it became so much easier to write the book once I surrendered the notion of it's not about me. And you even said this earlier, Ephra, it's not about me. Faith, it's not about you. God works through you to accomplish his goals, what he wants done in the earth. And as long as you understand that and you're willing to be the conduit that is willing to be used, the best will to be used by God, he'll use you if you let him.

[26:59]  So that's how the book came about.

[27:03]  You know, as I grew up, and I'm pretty sure you experienced this, there was these seeds that we were planting.

[27:08]  Mhm. Like I always told God that I wanted to uh I wanted to be on a well at least the vision that I thought well I know God gave me was that I was going to be on a stage speaking to people as a host and in my mind I'm thinking I'm the next Ryan Secretress. Yeah,

[27:22]  right. Like I'm about to be out there and this is this is the platform, right? This is the stage.

[27:26]  I'm the host and I'm talking to people and I'm getting to share through my testimony, hear testimonies and really empower others. always wanted to give back because I realized that I was given a second chance in life. And as I sit here and realize how God really just put everything in place, it's like, yeah, I'm doing everything from a young kid, not realizing

[27:46]  that every single part of the journey was to lead me here,

[27:50]  right?

[27:51]  I I think about it like if I didn't meet my wife, my wife, she's similar to you. I mean, she has these visions sometime. I used to You remember that? So, Raven, remember Raven Simone?

[28:00]  Yeah. Yeah.

[28:00]  I used to think that my wife was like a Raven Simone. She would just come with these visions like don't lie to my wife. She would know God done told her that you were lying.

[28:07]  And uh but even her seeing these things, you know, and and and saying, "Hey, we got to pray." Like we're a praying household because of my wife.

[28:15]  Yeah.

[28:16]  You know, and so again,

[28:19]  who would have thought if I would have settled, I would not had her.

[28:22]  But God told me, "Don't settle."

[28:24]  Yeah.

[28:24]  Right. And when I found her, I knew it was it you know. So I'm I love what you're talking right now. This is so some good stuff. But when we talk about moving forward, clearly you've you've always moved forward in your life, but now we're talking about innovation and probably with people I think I believe that Angela mentioned to me that there was like those that were probably there for 40 plus years. How do you continue to innovate when you have people that may not be with you on the same page?

[28:51]  Um, so let's start with what I told him when I got here. So he every leader has to have a vision always and the Bible talks about without a vision people perish. I walked in the door saying this is my vision my vision for the organization and we are going to be the premier community action agency in the country not just in the state of Ohio so that people will fly in from all over the world to find out how they did it in Cleveland. So that was my vision. That's what I shared with with our team. But what I said to them was right now we're here. My vision is we're going to be here now. And I even said not everybody wants to get there and that's okay. There are other places you can work.

[29:32]  Okay. But if you stay on this team, like I told I don't like losing. If you stay on this team, this is where we're going. This is where we're aspiring to. All right. So, what I normally tell people is when I got here, I had to remind them of the why we do the work because I recognize it that for a lot of people, it's a job. And I get that. I really do. Um I've even started and God gave me this um because I I was listening to some of these people who had this, you know, who had been here a long time and they didn't understand the work and the reason for the work. They they had forgotten that part of it. And so I said to to people, I said, and this literally is God inspired. I said, we were in a a regular meeting with the the entire team, and I said, "Raise your hand if there was a gun put to your head to apply for this position, right? Nobody raised their hand. Raise your hand if you read the job description." Everybody raise your hand. Raise your hand if you went through the interview process. Every raise your hand. Raise your hand if you went through the background check. Raise your hand if you expect your paycheck to be there every two weeks and correct. Hands go up. I said, given all that, is it not reasonable to expect that you're going to do the job that you just went through all that to get?

[30:56]  Yeah.

[30:57]  Okay. And so once you set the the expectation for people, there's some people who choose to stay. And if they do, what I say to them is, "You understand what you're choosing to stay in involved in?" And everybody says, "Yes, because like I started with you, my personal mission statement, open, honest, direct communication." I say that to every time I'm in a group setting, you and I'll remind our staff, you will recall. Okay? So, I'm not telling you anything that I'm not going to be able to back up later on. So, if you stay here, then you understand that this is the expectation. Okay? Now if you choose to leave we will help you find another job there other places you can work this not the only place but if you stay here then the expectation for from us is I expect your aame or whatever your aame is that day your aame may be C and that's okay but whatever your best is that day that's what I'm expecting because the people we serve going back to my mother sitting on that the bed you know crying about her children the people we serve need you to show up every day because they come through our door because they need help. And as long as you remember that, remember that part of it. They come because they need our help. Don't don't approach it like it's just a regular job because they when they come, they're expecting. They come expecting. And so I want you to remember either either what you have experienced personally when you were in a situation like that or family members of yours. How would you want your family member treated? And to remind yourself the why of what we do. That's how I get people engaged. Either you choose to stay or you choose to leave and either one is okay with me.

[32:46]  Yeah. No, I I I agree. And I think a lot of people when asking for help, they have to drop their pride and egos. Exactly.

[32:53]  So they're they already, you know, dropped all barriers and they're they're asking for help. Yeah.

[32:58]  And if they don't get the help, then it kind of puts us back in that same place, you know, mentally. A lot of us mentally are already going through things. And when we ask for help and we don't get it

[33:07]  or we get less than what we expected, it hurts us because we're human. Tell me that ain't right. You have to remember that the the work that we do, the job that we do, you shouldn't work here if you don't have a heart for people.

[33:19]  True.

[33:20]  You know, so let's be clear about that first. Be clear about what are the expectations from that organization and you'll work there.

[33:28]  You got to situate yourself in the environment. And if this if you don't have a heart for people, please don't work here. Don't come go somewhere else. Don't come here. Something else that I heard about you was that uh you won a smart business award for innovation, you know. So that that means you you innovating all the time. What does meaningful tech actually look like in the world? Especially when we talk about AI. Like that's a sweet word. That's what everybody's talking about. Are you guys implementing AI?

[33:55]  So yes, we have different people who are using it. I can honestly say I just started using like chat GPT. Um which is interesting. My my daughter was the one who told me about it. But for us, innovation when innovation when I first arrived, like I said, it's been 10 years. We still had typewriters. People were still using typewriters. And how I found that out was someone wanted me to sign the typewriter maintenance agreement. I started laughing. I said, "What do you Okay, now remember this is 2015 and we're still using typewriters." And at one point the organization was a $60 million company. What do you mean we're using typewriters? So for me, innovation was exactly every every assistant had a typewriter. We weren't we didn't have anything in the cloud. All of our systems were manual just about. So for me over the last 10 years, it was just bringing the agency into the 21st century. and to act like an to act like a $50 million company. There's certain things that $50 million companies do.

[35:05]  Correct.

[35:05]  You know, we had aside the typewriters, we had old equipment. Okay. People had like five to eight year old, 10 year old computers. We had to update all of those, upgrade all of those. the financial system that we we were using that we had to do so many workarounds instead of just buying a new system, figuring out what what we needed to do. Um, for HR, we had people who were being paid significantly more than the job and other people who were paid significantly less because it was based on whether or not I liked you, not your performance. So, I had to bring in I had to bring in an HR consultant, an IT consultant, a finance consultant. I had to bring in all these other people from the outside to say, I need you to go through this organization and give me some ideas as to what we need to do to modernize. So that's been over the last 10 years. It's only been in the last year, year and a half that we finally switched the financial system over. We just finally have a procurement, you know, department, $50 million and everybody's spending money and nobody knows how much money they were spending. This is crazy,

[36:11]  you know. So for me, innovation was

[36:15]  organizational efficiency. We needed to modernize for and AI's only come up in the last probably year, but first we had to have had the computers that will allow you to use anything.

[36:28]  That is so crazy. No, I I hear you. I've taken over organization that's 30 plus years old. They have about a little bit over half a million dollars in endowment, but they're only making $10,000 a year. They got no database. when I did go through some of the emails, not emails. When I went through some of the Excel spreadsheets they had, they don't have no emails, no phone numbers, but they have a home address. And I'm like, yeah, we don't do that anymore. Uh, you know, so everyone's always saying, "But what we used to do." I'm like, "Yeah, see, this is where the problem is. Is what we used to do. We got to move forward." I just, when you mentioned typewriter, I was actually cleaning up earlier before I got with you. I clean up my office and I'm I'm like maybe low-key a little hoarder, but these are just memories to me. But look what I found. Do I know what's on it? disc

[37:10]  only cuz you said time. That's what I was looking like. Let me go find this floppy disc. I I'm pretty sure it was something when I was a kid. I think it was like elementary. I would love to know what's on there. But just imagine that we used to use these floppy discs. Time has changed so fast that no one is using that anymore. Like you mentioned, there's a whole just data that lives on your computer that lives somewhere in the sky. And why are we not, you know? So, I love that you you're at least looking into it. You mentioned um

[37:34]  can I say real quick about tech technology? Good.

[37:38]  In order for people to to to adapt to it or to even adopt it,

[37:43]  you have to help them understand what's in it for them.

[37:46]  Because if you never get to what's in it for them, why is it going to make their life easier? Why is it going to make the job easier? If you never get to that,

[37:54]  then it's difficult for them to to adopt it.

[37:57]  I agree. I agree. I was going to ask when you mentioned uh Chatty PT that you just started using it. Um, I was working with someone yesterday, not yesterday, last week. And she was, as soon as I said Chad DBT, she said, "Nope, nope. I'm not doing it. Everyone's tried me. I'm not doing it." And I I pull it up and show her cuz I wanted her to test it on what I was trying to show her. Someone else is using AI to produce her work.

[38:20]  Y

[38:20]  Why do you not produce it yourself in your voice? Right.

[38:24]  Right. And and I've used AI now for the last year and a half, so I get it. Like, I've created these models. I mean, I have an assistant that is using my model to create my work and I'm not even touching it. Yeah.

[38:34]  But it's still in my voice. So, I uh I was showing her and by 5 10 minutes later, she's like she's already pulled up on her screen share and she's showing me she's already in chat GBT. Now, teach me again. Like, I want to do this myself. So, I'm a big believer in chat GBT and AI and how it's not it's a tool.

[38:50]  It's not replacing anybody, but it allows us to do the job that we really love, right?

[38:55]  More of that and less of the admin stuff. So, your daughter put you on Jag BT. Are you loving it?

[39:00]  You know what? I'm going to say this because I'm still, you know, like the early I'm trying to figure this out. So, my daughter's she uses it uses it as her counselor.

[39:15]  I love that.

[39:16]  You know, so she'll have a question and she'll and so she'll say, "Chat GPT told me blah blah blah." I'm sitting there going like, "It's a real person." All right. But what what changed for me? What changed things for me was a friend of mine um sent me a question that she asked chat GPT and she sent me the response that she received and it was so spot-on for her and so I thought well what the heck I'll try it for me and sure enough I mean it it's it I don't know how it does it

[39:46]  so scary huh

[39:47]  it really is um and then it'll say do you want to go deeper do you want to go deeper do you want to go deeper to the point where I finally said after like 10 times then you have to pay for it. So now I'm paying for it

[40:01]  because I see the value in it. Um but I also recognize that everything that is that is given to you, you really need to check that for yourself because check GPT is not infallible, you know, and and so you still have to be mindful of the fact that you have a mind that works. Like you said, it's a tool. And as long as you understand it's a tool, then you will never forget that a tool is to be used by you, not you. You you being used by the tool.

[40:35]  Tool. Yep. No, I agree. I I love that you mentioned the prompt. That's like everything. And I always say you won't be replaced by AI. You'll be replaced by someone that understands AI

[40:45]  and the prompting and how to navigate it because my best friend, she's in a situation. and she's starting this new um you know venture of of organizing office you know organizing spaces clearing the mind stuff like that and she had this one client and I'm I love to talk to chat DPT like just like I'm talking to you I have that conversation I hit play and it just gives me everything back right so I'm talking to her as I'm talking to chat dbt as well and and I'm reading her the prompt and I'm reading her what it said she's like oh my god can you send me those prompts because she's like the way that you just talking to chat dbt and the way he gave you all that I need that information. But it is it's about the data that you actually input. So if organizations have enough data, then you could really use this to save time. Yeah.

[41:29]  You know, um especially in a time where,

[41:32]  you know, our our country is not in the best situation when it comes to fundings, right? So there's going to be people let go or maybe jobs that uh that we really need someone that we can no longer provide. And I think a lot of people are kind of putting AI into those spaces. But as we start to really wrap things up, I want to talk about step forward. Uh what's one way anyone listening can actually step forward in their own community?

[41:53]  I think too often people assume what needs to happen in the community. I think you need to ask. So we spend time asking people are are the services that we're providing what you need. And as if they're not, then why do them? And that's the other conversation I have with people who've been here 10, 15, 20, 30, 40 years. It has to be relevant. Otherwise, close the door. And I've said this to to our staff. If we're not meeting a need in the community, then give the money to somebody who is. I'm not trying to keep a job for the sake of keeping a job. Now, do I like my job? Yes. Right. Best job I've ever had. But I'm real clear about why I'm here. I'm here because I'm supposed to add value to the community. That's why we exist. I never forget our why. So for someone else who's who's trying to figure that out, I would ask the question, what does the community need? Not what you think the community needs, what do they think they need. Because if you only do what you think they need, chances are you're gonna miss the mark.

[42:54]  So I remember saying earlier, what's in it for them?

[42:59]  Yeah.

[43:00]  If you meet that need and the and I'm a change agent and I'm I realize that I'm a change agent. I walk in the door, God keeps sending me places where either A I'm taking it to the next level or b I'm building it. So, a lot of my professional experience, I'm the first one in the job. So, I'm real clear about when I walk in the door, it's because God sent me for a reason. There's a purpose behind my being here. Now, once that purpose is served, and he'll tell me when it's served, as opposed to what I think it it may be served, but the minute God tells me that my time here is over, I can back my entire office up in less than four hours, I'm out. I'm out because I'm not wedded to the title. I'm not wedded to the position. I'm here to do a work and I'm here to make certain that I'm doing all the things that God wants me to do in this seat, in this moment for such a time as this.

[43:51]  Let's talk to those nonprofit leaders, those that are grinding right now. What's your message to them? I mean, you're talking about a 50 plus million dollar organization you're running and some are just trying to get to the million. So, what's the message for those that are out there trying to figure it out? I think the message for for people trying to figure this out is number one, I think you need to be clear about what is it that you're expecting. You know, why did you get there in the first place? Because people people forget that. And and I've seen this a lot, especially with politicians. Many politicians walk in the door saying they want to be a public servant and then they get there and then they forget because all of a sudden it's Mr. or Miss or Congresswoman or council person. So as a as a especially nonprofit leader,

[44:35]  why did you decide to go after this position? If you started the foundation or organization, then the question becomes why did you start it? So if you get there, that becomes to me your northstar. That becomes the reason you continue to either persist or shift. Right? So you've got to remember that part of it. I I don't chase money. We don't chase money because the minute you start chasing money then all of a sudden you have to wedge yourself into whatever it is that they want. You have to be clear about the why. I keep saying that. I can't tell you how many other times. The why. Why are you doing what you're doing?

[45:15]  And then you have to connect with and you talked about this. You have to connect with who are you and the who you are is going to change over time. The person I am now is not the person I was before. years ago, I was so worried about people liking me. Going back to this abandonment and all that other stuff, I would have changed. You need me to be green, I was green. You need to be purple, I was purple. You need whatever color you needed me to be because I wanted you to like me.

[45:44]  God sent me to Atlanta to to start a music museum. Back my background is I used to be a vice president at the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. So, somebody called me in Atlanta, said they wanted to to put a museum there. So, people thought I was crazy. I mean, seriously, when you talking about, you know, you left your corporate job and it's because God told you, right? People are like, "He told you what? God spoke to you?" I mean, and you're going there without a, you know, without a job. And I was like, I all I can tell you is God told me, "All right, so my husband, you know, he's crazy enough to to believe me, right?" So, we go to Atlanta and it didn't work out the way I thought it was going to work out. I was devastated. I mean, you talk about faith, my faith was in toilet. God, I don't understand why you allowed this. You know, people thought I was crazy and you let me go here and it didn't work out. What I didn't know was that was preparation for this job. I didn't know that. So, when I came back to Cleveland, the woman who would have been purple, green, blue, whatever color you needed her to be, that woman died in Atlanta. The woman who came back here was like, "I don't owe you. I don't I don't know you and I don't owe you. If you didn't call me when I was in Atlanta or text me to see if I was dead, who are you to me?

[47:02]  I mean, seriously, totally different woman. But it was the trauma of that experience. And God had to help me understand that's why I sent you. It was never meant for you to do the museum. I sent you there to that part to for that part to die in Egypt.

[47:19]  And then when you came back, totally different. That's why I'm

[47:23]  I always say all life experiences um teach you something. Yeah. Even the bad. What What do you learn from it? And you clearly learned something from it. But as we start to wrap things up, I know we on time here. If you could go back and thank just that one person from your childhood, someone who saw something in you early, who would it be? And what would you actually say to them?

[47:41]  Um I would say my mother. My mother died at the age of 53. I was 27 when she passed. She died two weeks after my first child was born. What I would say to her was was thank you because she was the one who instilled in me a love of of learning. I watched her struggle. I watched her as a single parent even though she was married to her second husband who was an alcoholic. I watched her struggle. She ended her life not being able to see everything that her children accomplished. It was she she was my role model. She got up every day. Didn't drive. She got up every day and took buses to work. I watched this woman struggle. Um, so yeah, she she would be the one. And there is a there very few times she's on my phone or pictures on my phone. I look at her every day. There are very few times that I don't say I wish she I wish she was alive because I would get on my hands and knees and number one say I'm so sorry for everything I put you through. Because that happens when you have children, right? Have children, you go, "Oh my god, I wish I You're right. I wish I could tell her I'm sorry. That would be the person. The second thing.

[48:50]  All right, Dr. Jackie, thank you for sharing that. I really appreciate it. What is your blind question to the next leader we have here on the heart and hustle?

[48:57]  I'm going back to what I said before. Why are you doing it?

[49:01]  Why are you doing it?

[49:02]  Why are you,

[49:03]  you know, what are you accomplishing? Are you are you do you see leadership and stewardship? How do you see leadership? How do you define it?

[49:11]  How do you def Okay. All right. Cool. All right. Where can people find you? What's your socials to the uh nonprofit? Let's talk about are you guys on Facebook, Instagram, but also yours maybe on LinkedIn so people can connect with you personally.

[49:21]  So I'm on LinkedIn and it'll be under Jacqueline Shift J CL L Y N and last name is C H I S H O L M. Same thing is true on Facebook. I'm on X. I'm on all these things. But I'm going to be honest with you, I don't really do social media a lot. And the reason I don't was because it had gotten to the point where I was on Facebook so much, not so much LinkedIn, but Facebook so much. I'm reading about other people living their lives and I'm sitting there going and I'm not living mine because I'm too you know so I try not to do that. But um as far as the the agency is concerned it's JISM chi hol lm at stepforwardtoday.org.

[50:01]  All right. Well I appreciate it. Well guys this has been another great episode with another great leader. We thank you Miss Jackie. We thank for the work that you've been doing and what you will continue to do because clearly you still got so much fight and so much like just excitement. I can't see you stopping anytime soon. I'm just saying.

[50:15]  Yeah, me neither.

[50:16]  Guys,

[50:17]  I want to say to you even as a leader, a leader when when you do these kinds of things, I benefit by this. I hope your audience benefits by it. But also, Ephra, if there's anything I can do for you, let me know.

[50:30]  I appreciate it. I appreciate it. Don't worry, I'm in your DMs, okay? I know you said you won't be on social, but I Guys, this has been the Heart of Hustle podcast. I'm Ephrain. This is Jackie. We'll catch you guys on the next episode later.