From Social Work to C-Suite: Kerri Tamer's Healthcare Transformation Story

[0:00]  [music] Welcome back to another episode here on the Heart and Hustle Podcast. Our next guest says, "I'm a master's level social worker and even I get lost trying to navigate healthcare. That's the problem I'm here to fix." That's Carrie, chief of staff at Sentoa. How you doing today, ma'am?

[0:30]  Hey, I'm doing good. How are you?

[0:32]  Are you excited about today's conversation?

[0:35]  I am excited. I'm so happy to be here with you. I mean, who wouldn't want to spend some time with you talking? It's so easy.

[0:41]  I appreciate you. I mean, surprised that you even have the time. I know I said it offline, but beautiful background. All right. The aesthetics is gorgeous. These pictures, tell us what they're about up top.

[0:51]  These are my husband's grandfather took these pictures with a famous artist back in like

[0:57]  the 60s. Uh, and he passed away a couple years ago. Yeah,

[1:01]  he passed away a couple years ago and so we keep him in our house. He was like the He was like the original cool guy. Yeah.

[1:07]  Yeah. Those are nice pictures, too. Wow.

[1:10]  Is your husband doing photography now? Is he Is he keeping that alive or

[1:13]  So, don't let him hear me, but he does. He wishes he was a photographer. He is a pharmacist. So, so and so, you know, the conversations are just wild. My sisters are nurses.

[1:25]  Um, so we have the whole thing covered. But he does I think I think low key he wants to be a photographer. He does bring he has a lot of equipment he likes to bring on vacations.

[1:34]  He is that guy.

[1:36]  He might he might be into it. You know he I always see people just pivot their careers. Who knows? He goes from photographers.

[1:42]  It's a cool thing. We were just recently at at the Keys Florida Keys and there was some folks selling jewelry on the beach and I was like you know

[1:51]  I don't know. I I think I might be able to do that one day. [laughter] How do you like your your vocation? And is it working for you? Cuz it looks like it could work for me. You

[1:59]  know, it's interesting.

[2:01]  Uh well, listen, you you started in social work and now you're shaping the health care systems as we mentioned. How did that happen? Like as we mentioned, just pivoting with your husband, he might pivot, but you really did pivot. So talk to us how we got there.

[2:14]  I think, you know, I start I I think helping was just so inherent in my life. My father is a minister. I grew up in church. uh seeing people who needed help and see people how they should be helped was very common to me. So I I think I naturally gravitated towards it. But when I realized it could be a profession probably like in my you know early you know high school really beginning on thinking about college years I gravitated towards social work. I actually interviewed all these social workers to think about like what could a career be like and um and so I I wanted that direct connection with folks. I think I like the idea of hearing people's story and I like the idea of maybe being able to say some words that make them feel better. Um but I think as I gravitated into social work more and more, I realized there's like a strategy to doing this, you know, like you can't just sit there and listen to someone. And a lot of times that's maybe that's all that person needs. But I started to think about populations and macro ideas and how do people get here in the first place and why. And so it kind of led me to more strategic thinking. I would say I I started to gravitate more towards program development and think about the larger issues than I did sitting and counseling a person on onetoone. I did that for a little bit with veterans and I got a lot out of it. It helped me understand some of the reasons why uh these larger picture macro issues are sort of happening from the firsthand experience. But I I did I quickly pivoted to thinking about program development. I spent a few years building care coordination programs in New York for a few different nonprofit agencies. Um and then even within that I started to realize wow there's even this bigger picture of the health plans and the payer world and who sort of holds the cards and and how we um can direct care. Uh so after spending a few years in the social work world within care coordination, I I wanted to make that first pivot which was understanding the payer world and and I spent six years um working for a payer

[4:24]  um and understanding how they look at a care delivery system, right? So I I was in a care delivery system. I was working with patients every day and there was this other system that we were interconnected with and I wanted to realize and learn more about what that was. So I spent seven years there and and saw a whole another way that folks look at health care, right? It's very connected to our structures, our our government, our systems. Um and so yeah, I think I started to realize I'm like peeking behind the curtain and seeing how things were being made. It was it was really helpful for me to understand where I wanted to be in that structure

[5:05]  and and now you're doing it at a high level working with seniors working at Central I mean going up the seauite ladder maybe one day CEO you know maybe that's in the cards we don't know you talked about maybe at the beach so maybe there's something [laughter] there too um

[5:21]  what what are you excited to kind of last time we spoke born and raised New York

[5:26]  yep

[5:27]  does it feel even better knowing that the work that you're doing is pretty much your backyard. It's your community. It's where you grew up at. Um, this is that exciting you as well to know that you're still in that space.

[5:37]  Yeah.

[5:39]  I think what was really interesting was when I was, you know, right working directly with patients, it would only be like a 20 minute drive from where I live to where these folks lived, right? And and I was finding them homeless and trying to understand where their next meal was going to come from. Um, and so it feels like it is right in your backyard. I think what's been really interesting is as I have deepened my experience with the macro level and working with national level companies, you understand that might not be your specific backyard anymore, but it's the same picture. These folks are in need.

[6:20]  It's across the country. It's the same for the family that I was speaking to maybe 10, 12 years ago, right in Copg, New York, where I would be finding my patients under the train trestle to understand what their needs were and how I can get them to their next safe space to stay. um no different from when I now travel to um North or South Carolina and meet folks that are seniors working um you know living in their area trying to get better care coming to a local centerwall center to to be taken care of right we're people and our needs are are really universal um and so I think that was a big piece of what helped me want to look at the bigger picture was I could talk to this one person and understand what was going on with them but there's a a lot of people like them and so if I could think of strategic ways to help the system I felt like that's where my skill set could be used.

[7:14]  So you mentioned it sensor well for those that may not be familiar with it talk about it. What are you guys doing there? What is it all about?

[7:21]  Yeah so well senior primary care we are sort of the care delivery arm of human um and we help seniors in um you know it's over 17 19 states. We have almost 400,000 patients. um we are there to give them all the services they need. So we're their primary care physician to which a lot of times we are the the only source of their um connection to the system and we're helping them understand what they need, how they need it, better quality of care, more efficient ways. um we serve them in a valuebased care arrangement. And so we are committed to making sure that they get better outcomes and we're trying to think of really innovative ways to do that every day.

[8:09]  Love it. And I remember when we first spoke you mentioned if you can't navigate the system, imagine what it's like for grandma. Obviously there's some experience there as well. Well, but what's that one thing most people really don't understand about the senior care experience in general? And I think that's where, you know, we all don't think about it cuz we're not there, but we all going to get there. So tell tell us what what is that?

[8:30]  It's so true. I think it's it's really interesting like, you know, thinking about your own mortality and uh it's it's something that not everyone is so comfortable doing. Uh and so I don't I do think that folks shy away from oh that's not me now. I don't have to think about that yet. But you know, as soon as you get a family member or a close friend that is in that space, you will very quickly realize this is a puzzle piece that is hard is a puzzle that's very hard to solve. I would say our system is very complicated and that's that's giving it a lot. It is intimidating. It's confusing. Um, and so when you have a senior who's just trying to understand the basics of what I need, trying to even articulate the basics of what they need, um, and then it going into this sometimes feeling like a black hole of a health care system, they need advocates to help them through. And that's really what Centerwell primary care physicians are are are being. They're being the advocate for that patient because they know it's hard. They understand their needs. They want to have them feel belonging with us so they can call us first before you have to go to the hospital. Speak to us about your needs before you have to get a much more traumatic unnecessary level of care that we could mitigate first.

[9:50]  Yeah.

[9:51]  So, I think there's two sides of that coin, right? It's families who want that for their loved ones. It's physicians who want to give that to their to their patients. Um, and so it's a really great thing when they meet and it's effective. It doesn't always happen that way. Um I often say this like healthc care for folks me again mast's level it's like you have this puzzle you have to put together and somehow your puzzle pieces you have they they don't match up they don't align you have like a monopoly piece in there as well. It's a really hard thing to understand. Um so I think what Centerwell is trying to do is make it easy and simple and talk to their patients more and hear them more so they can give them the care they need. I mean, and of course with you at the top tippity top of it, or not so much CEO yet, but we're pretty close, right? You're truly you're the strategy mind who knows what it feels like on the front lines, which is which is rare. How does your background make you a better partner um to clinical leaders?

[10:52]  I think, you know, that that is something that more and more of the last couple years has stood out to me. I I I have been in charge of the departments before, right? I've run sort of the end to end in the program making sure you know you got your P&L in order you have your staffing and your overhead in order you kind of know what your piece of the pie has to be. I think in this position being able like having the honor to work so closely with the chief medical officer like Dr. Vik Gar who's the chief medical officer of Centerall Primary Care who gives me the space to support and lean in and understand here really just be at the table so I could hear it helps me insert my experiences in a way that I think brings real life to it. I think I could say I understand the demands of the folks in this room. I've been there before. I understand that there are competing demands and how you have to understand business perspectives and keeping the patient at the center of it. Uh so can I share an insight here? Can I make it make sense here? Can I engage with leaders that are sitting with millions of things on their desk to do and they really just want to help patients? Can I help make that easier for them? And I do think my ability to say not just lip service of I know what you've been through, but I do know what that feels like to have these competing demands, but I think I can help you in this way and let me help you be a thought be a thought partner to you and then help take something off your plate. I do think that's been impactful for the leaders around me.

[12:30]  How long have you been with with Cynth?

[12:32]  It is going on two years now.

[12:36]  Wow.

[12:36]  Yeah,

[12:37]  that is a long time. But it looks like what you're kind of saying is that you're you love the place you're in because

[12:42]  there's the difference between that thought partner and and executing someone else's plan, but you're not just executing someone else's plan. You truly are, as you mentioned, a thought partner. They're listening to you. They they they know your value in a sense. It looks like companies know your value. And being with such a a team like this, what are some of the leadership skills that you see Central actually bringing individuals like yourself, but also those that join the team? Because I one of the biggest things that I hear is people don't feel valued at the table, but you're saying, "No, I feel valued." Yeah. Like they they truly do care what I have to say and and and when they don't need to, right? So, what are some of the leadership things that you've enjoyed being there for the last couple of years at Central?

[13:23]  I got to tell you, I didn't I was hesitant to be to be really honest. I I came through an acquisition. So, I was helping a um company um who was doing inhome senior primary care. so similar, but we were in the home. We had no brick andmortar locations. We were driving our doctors around and caring for folks in their homes, and they were all seniors in the same sort of boat needing that type of service. Um, and we were acquired by Centwell, the primary care. And I was like, "Oh, you know, I've done the the uh payer world before. You know, I understand this, you know, wasn't I I I learned a lot, but it wasn't where I wanted to be long term. I I wanted to be closer to patients." Um, and so I was like, all right, I'm going to just, you know, feel this out. I I see how this acquisition goes. And then candily I met Dr. Gar. And I was like, wow, if this if this is the thought leader running this clinical organization, then I can get behind this. Um, he's just genuine in his approach, wanting to keep clinicians at the forefront because he knows good taken care of clinicians take care of their patients really well. Um, and I was all about that message. So I was like, sign me up. like I want to stay like um the work that they're doing at Centerwell Primary Care to engage and retain and sort of honor their clinicians is admirable because they are taking their feedback from the clinicians and they're saying we know we hear burnout. We know we hear there's turnover because it's not an easy job. If it's not easy to get into the system

[15:00]  from a patients perspective, think about the folks in the system trying to figure it out themselves and work in it in an effective way. It's all really messy. Um, and so I think that they're, you know, admitting that and wanting to be better at how to help their physicians navigate that. So ultimately, their patients do get that better care. And so I think those are the leadership qualities that I quickly caught on to that I was like, I want to be a part of this. I think I have a skill set that could help these leaders um build this plan more and I was and I am really honored that they let me sit at the table um because they do. If they didn't then I wouldn't have that seat and I couldn't share these skills.

[15:40]  Um and I think that's what we need more of. I think folks have to understand talent and what they can bring and open the door for them so they can be there. And that's what Dr. Gar has done for me. That's what I hope to do for the folks that report to me. And um you know I think that's the piece of leadership that makes it make sense.

[15:58]  Yeah. No, I like that. I do feel that so many times people are very great talents,

[16:04]  but because like you mentioned, sit at a table and feel unheard, unseen, um they leave, they go elsewhere, you know, and you could have had the same opportunity, but if it wasn't for that great leadership that you were just seeing right during this being acquired, you could have also done the same thing, but you stayed. And I'm going to have to put you in the hot seat because you mentioned a couple of things. So if there's one thing that you if you say you walk away from Center well today cuz you're on the beach selling jewelry. Okay. [laughter]

[16:32]  And you you took one thing with you, one one great uh gem when it comes to leadership. What is that? What is that one?

[16:40]  I think that's a hard one to choose. One. I find that engagement with levity is very helpful in leadership. I think folks want to feel like you're present. I think they want to feel that you're real. I think they want to understand somebody here has a vision that I could get behind. and they also kind of know what's going on. They're not just a face. They're not just a name. I think they can be down to earth and real. That's how I try to approach leadership. I try to say

[17:29]  I have this thought. I have this vision. I think it's good for this reason. I'm also a human being. And I think that you should you should be able to be real with each other to understand really hard problems. We could do hard things. There are hard things to solve, but we can and we could do them in respectful and good ways together. Um, maintaining our engagement without having to have so many abrasion points.

[17:51]  So, I listen to your doctor like a very great person seems um to work for and I love those type of CEOs that say open door, you see them in the hallways, they're talking to you like they're not afraid to have conversations with you. So many times people are scared to have those conversations with their presidents and CEOs of a company and it's really that's what they created. That's the atmosphere. So I I love that your C your your president CEO has created the atmosphere that says hey we're all in it together.

[18:20]  Do you feel that this was new to you? Like in the past were you getting that? Um because it feels like that's really where you go to is just feeling like man it's just another person like holding a title but the title it's not making the person the person made the title like do you agree? Yeah, totally. I've had those experiences where I have felt leaders like my very first mentor, my first leader I had right out of college was totally open door. So to led by example, the the exemplary way to lead and I was like, "Wow, like this is how I want to be. This is the leader I want to be. I want folks to understand there's a good way. There's a we can move forward and we can do it together." So I have had those experiences before but I have also had the other where the leader is like there is no room for you to speak here. Um it is what I am saying it is not what you are saying and I have seen the stark differences between the the type of products that could be built in in both of those examples. You know it really is not I don't think it's hard for people to understand that when you have a more open person there's more ideas. it flows, the vision is there. When you don't, you don't. I I don't I don't think people there's not a lack of understanding of that.

[19:38]  I think it's more about doing the work and being a real authentic leader is harder because you have to have um things to say and do and you have to be able to engage and not everybody is so comfortable doing that. Um so I think it's it's the better way to be. it's not always the easiest way to be. And so I have learned that's who I want to be. And I can quickly see others um who fall in that same sort of category and others who do not.

[20:08]  If the Heart and Hustle podcast has ever sparked any idea or made you think differently, do us a favor. Make sure to guys share this, post it on LinkedIn, or even text that nonprofit friend that you just have. Whatever works. This is what keeps the conversation going. and allows us to just grow this community together. Seriously, we appreciate you.

[20:30]  All right, so I'm I'm going to reverse this question.

[20:32]  Thanks.

[20:33]  All right, Central has poured into you, but we can't just take and not pour back into it. What do you bring to Central from a a leadership perspective, right? You've had the experience. You've seen great leaders. So now, what are you bringing to the table for Central that has also kind of been like an eye openener for them? Yeah, I think um I think what folks would say is that I I bring a authenticity to my strategic um engagement, my strategic direction. I think that I my keen understanding of what the type of work is and my ability to say um we have to think of it this way and we can do it and I can help you think through it this way. Um, and I have been there before and I and I think we can find a way through this hard time and let me take some of the work cuz I I know how to do that is helpful. I think I'm also a really good listener. So, I think that folks um find it pretty easy to speak to me and talk to me about what they need to move in their areas and and I think I can take the key points of that pretty well and then help them execute on it. So all of those skill sets start started in social work, right? A social workers is there inherently to listen to help build the bridge to help understand what folks on both sides are are wanting so that we could get to a solution. Solution focus is like what social work is trying to do. And so I think the mixture of sort of being raised in that social work world, sort of where I grew up in the social work concepts, um, and then having some hands-on operational experience in the work has helped me sort of bring all of those tools, uh, together, uh, to help advance the work that we're trying to do. So, so I hope that is what all the folks around me are seeing. That is what I try to do every day.

[22:32]  Okay. I love it. I love it. Now that we now that we got that out the way, I want to talk about how we continue to care for our physicians. We're in a place where I don't really know because I'm not in it, but I know that there was a decrease, right? People were leaving. They're finding other things to do. Um, and some may say it was really feeling overworked, right? Feeling burnt out. The pandemic shifted the the mindset of so many people that they decided to walk away. But now what I'm seeing is that we're helping our doctors from actually still doing notes in the middle of the night to have more AI tools to really bring AI to a space to do things so we could do things more of what we love and less of the things that we hate cuz you didn't go to school to sit here and do paperwork all day. That's not your thing, right? Is that people So are you guys seeing AI play uh a you know a change in what you guys are doing on your day-to-day or are you guys not there yet?

[23:24]  Yeah, absolutely. that is a big focus of what we're trying to connect to our physician engagement, physician retention. Um, we are all about making sure that we're doing things in a smarter, more efficient way, leveraging AI in the sense that it empowers, intelligent, certified, qualified to do what they're doing folks to do it better. And that's essentially what we're trying to do, right? So you you you said it folks are overburdened. There is a lot of administrative burden that comes onto our physicians. They did not want to um come to this field to fill out paperwork. They want to help patients. Uh and so one of the big things that we're we're leveraging is AI to help them do their notes more efficient, faster. They can speak into their cell phone. Um the the app can be on their phone. It then generates their notes for them to review. This is more than just time savings. When we have taken testimonials from providers, they are saying like my anxiety is lower. I got to eat dinner with my family. I got to talk about my job today and not be stressed out about what I have to do in the middle of the night once my kids go to bed because I have to make sure my notes are closed. Um, you know, with AI is helping shape the way that we're going to think about the art of the possible. like what could we do if these things were not taking so much more of our time? What more could we do with our time to help patients? How do we make more impact in their lives? So, absolutely on the forefront of probably every meeting that I have from day to day is how do we leverage AI? How do we think ahead of the curve? How do we make sure we're doing what we can do to make it easier on them? Because again, easier on the physician is better, more at ease patient care.

[25:17]  Yeah. No, that's so good. And and I can only imagine that I'll make sure I clip that exact moment of how you said someone get gains back time with their family because it if used right, it could bring you that it could bring you back the time that you felt you haven't had in a long time. Uh maybe it's to to go work out now. Maybe it's to go spend time doing that hobby that you've always loved, haven't had time. It is your kids, right? Being there more present for your kids. And I still hear so many people kind of in that fear space. Um, and I'm like, it's here. It's not going anywhere. And then something else you brought up that was very interesting is that you said, um, they could just talk into their phones. And at one point in our lives, we were afraid from the computers. I believe like 1998, we were afraid of computers, but we carry computers in our pockets,

[26:02]  you know, like we're having conversations and in reality that every time you were having a conversation before AI was a sexy word, you already experiencing AI. We just weren't calling it that. That's right.

[26:12]  Right. So, I love that you guys, as you mentioned, at the forefront is how do we continue to utilize this to our advantage so that we could have better experiences because to me, the experience is everything. And I always bring this up. I went to this hospital. I'm I'm I'm waiting to go to a hospital that has these AI transcribes. No, because I believe the experience will be different because I've been to the p the person that goes to the doctor and the doctors never looks at you, doesn't even know what eye color you have. like they they can't tell you anything to be quite frank other than what you're telling them,

[26:43]  right? And I think that in itself for a lot of us have created a bad experience and as humans we just want to have a good experience. That's what makes us want to go back more. But once we have that first bad experience, we go find elsewhere. We just don't go back. Um and you know, we used to have family doctors that would take care of the whole family. That doesn't even exist anymore because the experience is not the same what we used to. So, I think, you know, what we're doing now and the AI and trying to just help people get back to giving and helping like they wanted to, I think we would definitely be able to get back to those places. Um, so I love it. I love that you mentioned what you did. That was

[27:20]  for sure.

[27:20]  Right on. Right. Right on the head, man. I'm clipping that. [laughter]

[27:24]  I think it all comes down to trust. And so, if if we could find tools that our physicians can trust is going to make their job better, then they're more confident using them. And then they can show their patients, we can trust how we're thinking about these things because we're helping you and this is good. And that's what patients want too. They want to trust their physician is doing the best for them. Um, and that's arming them to do so.

[27:52]  I love that. How can everyday people who just advocate for better senior care in their own communities?

[27:57]  You know, I think that it's not as complicated as people think. Candidly, I think if you have a neighbor and they're older and they need support and you support them, you are supporting the senior population. I cannot tell you how many times casually folks think, "Oh, you're the social worker. I'm going to ask you for help." I'm not doing groundbreaking things for them. People just want to feel heard. They want to feel connected. And so I would say if you are a loved one or a friend of a senior, stay connected to them. Reach out to them. If you are not, then find ways that you can in your community. There are really easy ways to do that. And there are more sophisticated ways if you really think about the career of social work or engaging in the medical field in some way. Um but but I don't I think we have to make it really simple for folks. I think finding someone who needs that support and giving it to them is how you can make a big difference in their lives. You know, I recently was talking with someone and they said sometimes, you know, when you talk to a senior, they only talk about one or two things. They keep saying the same thing over and over again. They don't have too many interactions in their world as they get older. The interactions get smaller and smaller. And so, what you might be for that person versus what they are for you could be very different. you know, my husband's grandmother needed a medicine dropped off to her maybe a couple weeks ago. Um, and it was like 4 in the afternoon. Their lights were off. They were ready to get ready for bed. It's 4:00 in the afternoon. And I came to them and I gave them their medicine and we talked for a little bit and she was so happy. And you know, maybe I was the only additional person they saw that day. Um, so I I think there are small things that make big differences and I think in the community you could do that. And then I think there's absolutely space for us to be responsible in the way that we handle these macro issues in the way that we deliver care and the way that we take care of our seniors in healthcare and and make sure we're using the most innovative ways to do so.

[29:59]  I'll tell you what, I used to have I used to work for the airline industry, right? Picking up co calls. So a lot of these calls, it was people with issues most of the time, right? That's why people call. They don't tell you the great things, but they would call, they couldn't work the website, change, cancel, whatever that is. And and when I get to the elderly, I'll be on the phone with an hour, but you know what? It was a fun hour. They were great to talk to. Like it was never a dull moment. They're sharing stories and it it just always put a smile on my face. Like as you mentioned, they just wanted to have a conversation and that I could be that for them. While they thought like I was great, I'm thinking like no, you were great because not everyone calls in with this kind of attitude and sharing these type of stories. I was actually talking to my friend last night because obviously there's been a lot of deaths right now. Hulk Hogan and Aussie Osborne all that and we were just

[30:49]  I was just bringing it up like you know um how people uh Aussie Osborne got to die the way he wanted to performing on stage. How huge is that? So I was letting her know that when people go into hospice like they also help them try to live out those dreams that they've always had. And I've heard some phenomenal stories. So I I was telling my friend I'm like, "Man, we we should start like volunteering at some of these homes or, you know, centers because there's so much to learn from them. This used to be a former CEO, a former former athlete, former whatever, right? Like they have so much information. If you really want to learn, go speak to someone that experience life."

[31:25]  Yeah. You know, so I I love what we're we're talking about now is people don't have those conversations often and not realizing that that also lessens their life a little bit, right? Because they feel like why why am I here? They start to think that way. Their body starts to, you know, feel that way. So I'm always a big believer. I think I'm good though. You know what I'm saying, Carrie? Me and you probably good. We talk. We like to talk.

[31:47]  You know, be being a social worker, you have to talk. You had to. Like that's how you're getting information out. So I think we're good. But to those people that don't realize it's okay to have a conversation,

[31:57]  you know, it's okay to say hello. Sometimes they're staring at you because they just want to they just want to talk to someone. Give them five 10 minutes. Truly makes that difference. So I I just Carrie, I know you're doing amazing. I can't wait till one day you stay. Listen, I got promoted to CEO. Okay. My CEO stepped down or retired or whatever that may look like.

[32:14]  Big dreams on the beach selling jewelry. Somehow [laughter]

[32:18]  never if that happens, you got to tell me, Carrie. You got to tell me. Um listen as we start to wrap things up where can people find you LinkedIn if they wanted to connect with you but also just the website for people to find out more about Centerwell.

[32:29]  Yeah you can um find me on LinkedIn and Centerwell is Centerwell a primary care organization. If you search them up you'll see them right away. They're um across the nation having centers helping seniors in their local communities. So there's a lot of opportunities within the company. So you would also see that. Um but yeah reach out to me. Love to talk to anybody anytime.

[32:49]  All right. And in the blind question, what's one thing social work taught you that you still use in everyday leadership meeting today?

[32:58]  People are human. We all are. And so we all have a lot of the same thoughts and fears. And that if you give space to just talking to folks, those come that comes out pretty naturally. Um, and so you really can have a conversation with anyone. That's what it taught me. Isn't that cool though that I'm pretty sure you've had conversations with people and you think you're telling like this secret in a way and it's like oh and they'll start to share their story and

[33:27]  it's really universal experience.

[33:29]  Yeah. Wait,

[33:31]  we're just alike. You know, I I'm a big believer and when I have these conversations, I always tell people, I speak to CEOs, seuite execs in different, you know, areas. We're all human. Like our titles don't make us any different.

[33:43]  You know, when we die, we go through the same dirt at the end of the day, you know. So, I I I hear you. We are all human and we got to be kind to each other.

[33:51]  Yeah.

[33:52]  We got to be kind to each other. That's the difference between life and death. I believe a lot a lot of the times it's just being kind to each other, having conversations like this. And I what I love to have these conversations, Carrie, is someone may have taken something that we given them today and we will never know. Yeah.

[34:06]  That they ran with it.

[34:07]  Yeah.

[34:08]  You know, and that's why having conversations.

[34:10]  Yeah.

[34:10]  Yeah. More often you don't get to see um the, you know, you've sewn something. You don't always get to see it grow. Um

[34:21]  but you still put this the seed out there. And I think that's part of opening up the conversation. you know, letting there be space so folks can share their experiences. Whether they're talkers or not like us, everyone has an experience. And so if you if if you're honored enough to hear somebody else's, be kind to them and give them a little bit of yours. And that's really what we need. That's what seniors want, too. So there's really no different.

[34:45]  You ever try to talk to someone that doesn't like to talk and still get them to talk? [laughter]

[34:51]  That is always the best. It's like, yeah, you can tell they're not trying to talk, but by the end of it, they got a smile in their face and [laughter] they're just having a good old time and realizing that they've talked to you for 15, 20 minutes.

[35:00]  Um, those are always the best because

[35:02]  I agree.

[35:03]  It they have these guards up.

[35:05]  They seem like, you know, they want to talk. It's just they have these guards up for whatever reason

[35:10]  and they find someone authentic like Carrie that is just just wants to talk. How you doing? You know, like there's just can't be mean to that person. It is it is very But what is your blind question to the next leader? Um, I would say where do you think we need to take this next generation and how we maintain our human connection with each other?

[35:33]  How do we stay connected as humans? It's kind of something that has been around my discussions the last couple of weeks

[35:41]  with all the AI, all the good things. How do you keep the human? How do we stay connected? That is true because I'm finding out more people using AI for therapy.

[35:51]  Um, more people using AI as an assistant. All right. It's just so easy to have the conversation. Like I I'm not going to lie to you. I talk to AI all the time, you know, whether it's here on my computer or my phone. And it's really for business reasons, but

[36:05]  now twice I've heard somebody use chatb as a therapist. I'm like, "Holy crap." Right? So, you go back. What's crazier is that people don't believe that AI can have that human interaction,

[36:15]  but there's people using it already for that.

[36:17]  Yeah.

[36:18]  You know, that it doesn't can't show empathy, that it can show this,

[36:21]  but it's how you prompt it, you know. So, it is a very scary world when I'm pretty sure, Carrie, back in our young days, we were outside kicking the ball, riding our scooters, riding our bikes, getting hurt.

[36:32]  No phones. And nowadays,

[36:33]  no phones.

[36:34]  No phones. Yeah. You know, you fall, I can't take a picture. Nowadays, they're just inside. They're streaming. They're playing games, which is all great. I hopefully, you know, I always wondered,

[36:46]  do we have as much injuries nowadays with kids? Probably still, right?

[36:50]  Even though you're not outside.

[36:51]  I think it's more about like how do you I think you have to realize this is the world we're in. Like my son is on his tablet and wanting to be on it and, you know, doing all these games, watching documentaries. He's doing everything on his tablet. But how do we still maintain that we're we're the human leading it. Like how do you still keep that connection I think is is going to contangularly be the question we have to ask ourselves as a population as a as a community because we are going to have a lot of supports and we should use them. We should also think about how to still be authentic with them as well.

[37:26]  Well, I won't take much too much of your time. Carrier, you have been phenomenal to talk to. I know we can do this for another hour if time actually permits, but we got things to go do. So, I appreciate it. You guys make sure you guys subscribe, like, comment. Carrie, has been a pleasure having you on the Heart Hustle podcast and we'll catch you on the next one. Sounds good.

[37:42]  Lers.

[37:42]  Thanks.