How Ellen McGuirk Scaled a Collapsing Nonprofit Into a $50M Mission

[0:00]  That was something Scott and I agreed on early on, but he made it more of a policy than anything else. I think it's really and he also he lived it 100%. And that is that in a community-based nonprofit, the most important person is the most important person is the clinician or the person who's, you know, giving the bus ticket. not giving the bus a ticket but also riding with the person on the bus to the shelter or wherever they need to go. Um and the least important person is the person sitting at the desk, right? Doing the finances, the paperwork or the outreach. Um it doesn't mean that CFO and the CEO and the COO or the CIO aren't important. We are. We take away the barriers and we

[0:47]  provide the money. We make sure the organization is running. We're in compliance with all the laws and all that good happy stuff. But where the work actually gets done, where the impact really felt is on the front line. Yeah. And so it's always been a premise to equip the front line of our organization with the tools like, you know, mobile devices that work brilliantly or laptops or, you know, AI instruments where they can do a scribble and they can turn the scribble into a sentence. So they're spending less time doing the writing of notes, things like that. um enabling the front force is really a key key element for us. And so therefore the front line's the most important and the the pyramid is upside down.

[1:51]  Welcome back to another episode here on the Heart and Hustle podcast with another great leader in Miss Ellen. Ellen, how you doing today, madam? I'm great. How are you? I'm doing phenomenal. Can't complain. It is Tuesday. But I really want to get started just straight into it. like you go in, you take a million dollar liability with no safety net and you truly turned a collapsing nonprofit into a million a $50 million mission all while still navigating that loss faith and leadership. So I ask you like how did you get through it? Like what is the mindset? What are the things you have to tell yourself? Who is the people in your corners to keep you um just you know full of life to still keep leading?

[2:32]  Well, in the beginning it was um it was something that my son, my husband and I did together. So that million dollar loss, the $800,000 loss was something that he took on based on his mission in his life. And I was very aligned with it. So it was something that I'd gone in to do a turnaround and I took the million dollars to sit on the board that was remaining after we split agencies apart. The next part of the journey was um he took on that next step. Um, and it was a lot of prayer between the two of us and agreement that this was the mission for his life and mine together.

[3:08]  And then he built a great deal with a great team at South Coast. Um, the remaining people that stayed, there's still a couple employees that are with us that were there at the beginning as as a board member actually. So, um, there's a lot of legacy here. when my husband passed, um the board made me the the CEO, which was a surprise to me. I really didn't think that was going to happen. Um and I'd been involved in the agency for years, um over the 15 16 years. So, I had a lot of inside knowledge of the ch of the things that he was going through on a regular basis. So, I had a working knowledge and I had also the projects with the organization. And so my mindset was always uh that the hustle was really the part of making money together with

[3:58]  my husband um and raising our son. At the same time, I had a consulting business on the side. Um I did an awful lot of uh work in the community and at my son's school. The heart part was always the mission of helping others, whether it was in this agency or in my community. Um I got that from my mom.

[4:17]  She was always a big volunteer as I grew up which is I think it rubbed off and big part of my faith and um the faith part is really when my husband died it was really leaning in to all the scary stuff you know most people will tell you when you lose someone's significance at least two or three months where you're in a fog and I had a great team and a wonderful board that really understood what was happening and um I just honestly you pray and cry every day and then when you come out of the fog, you just keep working towards what you know to do the right thing. And he's really led us in a lot of amazing ways since then. Of course. Of course. I I I want to uh give kudos to your husband because you said your husband really uh played a major part in the organization that you still have so much passion, you

[5:06]  know, so much drive for. Um so kudos to him. And we talk about leaving a legacy. You know, you you were you were able to tell me he didn't just do a little bit. He he did a lot. I mean, they had to call him out of wherever he was at because he was that good. And that's I remember the story. How did that make you feel that at least you were able to create that legacy with him that the the longer you stayed there till till the day that you know me and you go, he has a lot to do with the growth of the organization. Absolutely. He was the I mean I took on an a project for eight weeks and split two agencies apart and went around. he took on the part of the agency that was going bankrupt and turned that around. So, wow. 800,000 negative, five 100 employees, 100 kids served, um five million in revenue to

[5:55]  you know 30 million and um making money and over 300 employees at that point. So, and over 5,000 kids served. So, he did that on a point and a half of margin and the team. So, that's a big deal when you're in a medical business. Um, he was a turnaround guy. He was an accounting guy. He understood numbers very well.

[6:18]  Um, really good at budgeting. We have an amazing CFO that was hired and he did that with they did that together really. Um, and that's that's a big part of, you know, when he's in heaven, I'm sure he's enjoying uh enjoying watching what's happening now. I'm sure he's praying for us to make sure we continue and we don't screw it up. What What are some of those leadership skills that that you learned from him? I mean, you guys are both great leaders, uh, respectfully, but I can imagine as also a great couple, there's some things that you guys were able to learn from one another. What are some of those things you learned from him?

[6:53]  You know, his strengths are were very different than mine. So, he's a he was a really great finance and accounting guy, very um computer savvy. So, he did all of the technology planning. He really put a lot of the first parts of Zoom. He brought Zoom up right as the pandemic started. So he was very ahead of his time in nonprofit world to put all the technology talks in place. So um our community based folks were easily early enabled with mobile and laptops. We would give um devices to clients which is unheard of right or in the gangs. You know we give them a laptop so they could talk to us whenever they needed to. That was like unheard of but it really worked and it really spread the word that we were there to really help. So those are important things that um I learned a lot about how he looked at that community in

[7:41]  a different way. Um so he brought a lot of the operational technology and financial pieces. My you know I have an office background too but I'm probably much stronger in strategy and marketing and um sales and just making it's sort of like at the right time we both have our own role. Um, and I'm a lot I'm really into the data of the organization. How do you come through with operational metrics that matter that matter to the market, matter to the funding stream.

[8:13]  So, I think you do all that, but I think those are sort of how we balanced our Yeah, a great duo. A great duo. I I I want to take it back for a second. What does DARPA and manufacturing and a trip to Israel have to do with um mental health leadership? like take us to that moment. You you you had to go through a lot before you get to who you are today, Ellen.

[8:38]  Yeah. Um couple different questions there. So, in my career, I was with electronics in manufacturing. So, I was a VP at 35 with LA Signal um running, you know, billion dollar organization around different programs around the world. Um, prior to that I was in a small flexible circuitry and materials company that had won a vertical DARPA contract. DARPA is the defense research deep research for the country. And that first vertical was really the very first flip chip technology available because we had a very unique material called Novaclad that we forth to the market. And so a lot of my engineering and and technology background um helped me learn that there's an awful lot that can be done in

[9:27]  teamwork and that 50 people in the world can really make a huge difference. We're also a team that put the first lithium down into a plastic which is very risky because lithium volatile it burns quickly in water as lots of people with Teslas know. It's not a cut on Tesla. It's just that's the reality of the technology.

[9:45]  But in the very beginning of lithium batteries, there's 50 to 100 people. In the very beginning of um flip ships, there's 50 to 100 people that make a difference in developing a technology, right? So when you fast forward to this business in nonprofit world where I find I found myself, right? Um you realize that innovations like that are important to bring at the forefront. So if you think about mental health as a as an industry when the large largest provider is 250 million in an entire state like California which is the seventh largest economy in the world you realize that's a very cottage industry. you are a fairly small group of revenue against the big funders. Big funders meaning

[10:33]  insurance companies and the state itself group and the feds through medical. So you need to put your plate where you are in perspective to what's happening in the greater world, right? Well, mental health through COVID became a buzzword, right? Everybody was about mental mental health. How do you provide mental health? How do you get an agency like ours to be bigger? And that growth trajectory is very important because most of mental health is in dire need of more providers, right? So there's just not enough work for not enough funding.

[11:08]  There's not enough understanding about it. And you found Amazon and Walmart and big CVS, a lot of huge players jump into the market to provide services in their brick and mortar or to stuff online. you saw a lot of teleaalth jump in. Um you see comm apps now, right? So if you're a brickandmortar provider in a relatively small geographic area and you're in the 30 to 40 million range, you know that you need to grow to a 100 million to be rel relatively relevant, right? Yeah.

[11:40]  And we've never done any external fundraising. So that means on a point and a half a margin to grow at that level is very hard. Your cash flow is going to have a problem, right? So we've been doing a lot of different things to figure out how to improve margin by cutting cost. So that brings in the manufacturing chops in the background, but it's really about learning about process talking making sure that everybody has a voice in the team. Um, but it's applying some of those early process metrics that help you get there.

[12:10]  It helps you think about the industry a little. You're you're you're just a beast in in what you do. I mean, you talk about growing and scaling. I just love it. But I I know that there had to um be some pressure, right? Um you you you do you did something that people would run away from. You've taken on a challenge when no one wanted to do it.

[12:33]  What made you really stay when everyone was walking away and no one wanted to do it? Um mission. I mean it's about mission. So you asked me about the Israel trip. Um, you know, my personal mission is is a story of going to Israel and um at Gideon Springs, uh, our pastor said, you know, we we need you to bow your head and just very first thing that you hear in your, you know, you hear the voice of God going to be the name you have and you kind of have to be in Israel to understand that water doesn't move. So, Gideon Springs has been there since biblical times. Mhm. Um and so in the moment when you're really understanding the value of that moment, my answer was what I heard was pure mother of many.

[13:20]  And at that time I was not married. I didn't have a child. You know it I was single and that really hit me hard and I couldn't imagine why God was calling me that. That was in 1998 999. Um, and it really shook me and it really made me rethink my priorities and what am I spending my life? I'm spending my life um in manufacturing and airbag tapes, you know, for airbags was important. That was important. Delivery flip early flip chip technology. That's important. I had a little piece of some of those technologies. But I think what's important is um starting to work in the African ministry at my church and helping to fund raise for World Vision and doing a variety of things that would promote children's health and well-being became much more of center of who and

[14:09]  what I did with my life. And so sort of this natural outcome over my life work, meeting my husband, having the same mission, you know, teaching Sunday school, doing a whole variety of things that were children oriented, and then coming into this role um where this board member asked me to take a consulting contract for these two agencies that were formed. I turned him down three times because I'm like, "No, I'm a for-profit girl. I'm I'm not a nonprofit person. It's too bureaucratic." But, you know, it really changed the trajectory of my life and my husband's life. And so, it really became a mission together. So, God had a plan.

[14:49]  He always does. Was there moments where you just felt like this is enough? We're not going to be able to scale this? And if so, how did you even overcome those moments? Because a lot of times you're in it and and we all hit those places, right, where we start to have self a little bit of self-doubt. But how did you overcome that self-doubt in a place where you're trying to scale it to 50 million? We still do. I still have that self-doubt.

[15:15]  I love it. Because my end goal is 100 million. But if you don't have a little self-doubt, you know, I don't know. I don't know who you are, but um every day I have to ask for guidance and help and hopefully that's, you know, hopefully I'm listening correctly and um and really leading with teams and and listening to other people who say, you know, you're on the right track. you know, getting good counselors and adviserss around you that will tell you the truth. You know, no, I wouldn't go that direction. That's that's not the right segment. And then having, you know, really by God's grace, have people come around you that say, okay, I want you to help out on this committee or would you help out with this and eventually become on the state board.

[15:55]  And um a lot of it's just listening to other people looking for wisdom from others who have been around longer, who've done it longer, who have a reach and a trajectory that's different. And then I mix in some of the skills I've got along the way and you know, you start put one foot in front of the other. You know, pro 163 is a really important one. You know, make your way to the Lord and he will direct your steps. So, um, I think I think I think there's a lot to those principles. You know, you really do you really have to believe you're guided and you really have to listen every day and listen to other people very very carefully about what they're doing for their Hey, real quick. If you enjoying the podcast, we

[16:42]  first want to say thank you and we also just want to give you a little insight of what we're up to at Francis. Some don't even realize that we're working with organizations to help them use AI to create that real human communication experiences where that's actually supporting your your families, those patients or the entire community. We're actually creating tech that connects.

[17:02]  Check it out. Francis.ai. I want to go back to that line that you just mentioned um from Israel, that moment where pure mother of many which is very powerful. But what is that phrase mean to you now all these years um late later now you're a work in progress. I don't know where that's going to go, but I would never have imagined having any part of helping so many kids. There's no way. Mhm. Beyond their comprehension really. Yeah. No, I and and

[17:49]  beyond what my child's my son is very strong, so I don't know what he'll do with his life, but you never know. I mean, you're you're a great example and I'm guessing you had great examples in your own life that um and maybe some that weren't great. You know, I I always look at life as we have sets of examples that we learn from. Not every one of them are good. Um but it's what do you do to not go down that path or what do I do to be a better version of my past?

[18:20]  Um, and I I think that to myself at all the time, you know, being a father, I think that was one of the biggest things is I didn't have dad. You know, I I don't I don't know what that looked like. And, you know, I didn't grow up with my biological mom. So, becoming a parent for the first time and starting to see like, wow, I'm breaking cycles here. Like, this is crazy. You know, my dad, even though he wasn't there, taught me on how to be a dad because I knew just all I had to do is do the opposite.

[18:44]  All I had to do was just be there. All I had to do is show up, give it a try, you know. So, um, a work in progress it is. You know, I sit here the same and I ask myself like, "Wow, how did I get here?" Do you ask yourself those questions? Yes. Yeah. Right. Like, and and it's God. It's it's truly when I sit here and think about those moments. Um, I was actually just just working now with um trying to create this this this article.

[19:11]  And I'm not one that really likes to I tell my story like this, but not when it comes to like actually writing the story. But as I sit here and think about it, I'm like, "Wow." Like like I a lot of the things that I said as a young kid, you know, that I said out there, God was listening. And and it happened years down the line and I go back, I'm like, man, I remember when I was a kid and I just said I wanted to give back. I didn't even know what a nonprofit was.

[19:37]  Yeah. But here we I am talking to nonprofit leaders. I run a nonprofit. So, yeah, we we are definitely a work in progress and I love that. I'm sorry that I brought that up and then it got you to that point, but Okay, it was it was good. It was good. Um, if someone is listening to right now, Ellen, and you and they're probably going through um a deep loss themselves but still wanting to lead, what would you actually say to them? What is that word of advice for someone that is kind of going through something that you went through and and is wanting to still lead, give back, help others?

[20:13]  Uh, you know, whenever you feel bad or you feel down, I've always that's always been sort of an MO is to give back to, you know, volunteer, do something for somebody else, take them a meal, figure out a way to help others is always makes you feel a little bit better because it's giving of yourself when you give it. When you give, you get things back that are unrealizable, which is just that inner self awareness of that you can do something different beyond yourself.

[20:44]  I think going through a very deep loss. Um, you know, right after I lost my husband, one of my dear friends was losing her husband to Alzheimer's. And I told her that if there was a way she could prepay her bills before his imminent death to do that because managing all of the finances is hard and she did that and she thanked me I don't know how many times, right? She had the wherewithal to do that.

[21:11]  But um you know really working on uh doing what you can do that day and leaving the rest for the next day doing as much as you can as intentionally as you can and asking for guidance and help from others and receiving help from others. Sometimes you have to learn to receive from others and that's an important leadership skill too. You have to receive wisdom and understanding and learn from other people.

[21:40]  You might have the final say in the chair, but you better be informed to keep the respect and to have alignment with your team. Not always agreement, but alignment. When you're going to go forward, you have to go forward as a true team. And so when you go through deep loss and grief, you have to find alignment um with those around you to give you help and to get help in ways that are meaningful.

[22:11]  Thank you. Thank you for that. And you're very special in a way of your leadership. Last time you told me that while most organizations put their CEO at the top, you've actually flipped the pyramid, right? Why did you go into that direction? Um, that was something Scott and I agreed on early on, but he made it more of a policy than anything else. I think it's really and he also he lived it 100%. And that is that in a community-based nonprofit, the most important person is a line. The most important person is the clinician or the person who's, you know, giving the bus ticket. not giving the bus a ticket but also riding with the person on the bus to the shelter or wherever they need to go. Um, and the least

[22:59]  important person is a person sitting at the desk, right? Doing the finances or the paperwork or the outreach. Um, it doesn't mean that the CFO and the CEO and the COO or the CIO aren't important. We are. We take away the barriers and we provide the money. We make sure the organization is running. We're in compliance with all the laws and all that good happy stuff. But where the work actually gets done, where the impact really felt is on the front line.

[23:25]  Yeah. And so it's always been a premise to equip the front line of our organization with the tools like, you know, mobile devices that work brilliantly or laptops or, you know, AI instruments where they can do a scribble and they can turn the scribble into a sentence. So they're spending less time doing the writing of notes, things like that. um enabling the front force is really a key key element for us and so therefore the front lines the most important and the pyramid is upside down. I love it. No, I love it. And if we talk about the frontline worker um at South Coast, what could they say today that would make you feel yes, we're doing it right?

[24:12]  Uh I hopefully they would have seen over the last two years we've increased their pay rates but we've improved their benefits. We've given them 410s or 980s so that they have more time with their families. Um you know that three-day weekend every other week has really helped them a lot. That's and we we did win a workplace award for Southern California. Um so you know one of the US News Award best places to work in the United States. So we we won that for our region. Um so we did a lot of things to make sure that people are heard and they're seen and that they have a voice and I think that pays off um in a variety of ways. Most importantly, happy employees make happier people as we touch them and help them and help help

[25:00]  them on their healing journey. Whose idea was a three-day weekend? Um well, we were looking for ways to improve the benefit package of our employees three years ago and um coming out of COVID, a lot of people didn't want to come back into the office. Um, so we were looking for a way to um, people were working long hours anyway, so we said, "Well, why don't we honor that longer workday and figure out a way to put what we call 980s in place?" So, it's a 9-hour day. Um, but on the every other week, you get an extra day, so you can have a long weekend. And people loved it. And that allowed us to figure out a way for

[25:49]  clinicians to if they wanted to do do private practice, they then had an extra day to do private practice for so they a little more money and hustle on their side. So worked out great. No, you you that's an amazing um implementation. I think people need to follow that three-day weekend. Listen, people are should be lining up at the door right now. Not a lot of people. Even if it's one to, you know, a month, that's that's enough.

[26:14]  Yeah. a lot of people be very excited about it and it's definitely helped in our retention and our in our ability to recruit. I like it. You mentioned a little bit about AI. Most people think of AI in Silicon Valley, but you're using in the community mental health. What made you take that leap? Is it just knowing that you had to stay with the times because I'm speaking to nonprofits now that are making, you know, 20 $30 million, but they say that they're still lacking on innovation and technology such as AI. Yeah. what made you actually take that leap? So, one of the key things I learned when I came into the job was people hate paperwork. You know, clinicians don't come into the business of helping people to do a bunch of notes and reports. They come into the business to help people and talk to them and

[27:01]  really try to heal them, try to give them the best care possible. And since we work with a very severe population, um they're hearing about child abuse or they're hearing about suicidality or 9-year-olds that are homicidal. It really heavy conversations day after day, hour after hour, every day. And so we got a team together and we talked about what would be ways to reduce that paperwork. How can we use software in our electronic health records to make checkboxes instead of written open fields? It one, it helps your data set, right? Because you're not trying to read through long narratives. It also helps people not have to write a long narrative, which saves them some time.

[27:44]  So we changed a lot of the paperwork and then as um LA came into place, we were able to really look at how to how to navigate that EHR in a different way where um there are AI techniques where you can write something on your phone tablet and then it can convert when you get to a Wi-Fi station and those handwritings can be translated into the beginning of your note. So it starts to write your note. Doesn't write the note for you, but starts to write the note because it understands what you've written. And that's been a huge timesaver. So somebody's not waiting at the till the end of the day to start to write the note. They're writing it either collaboratively or they're writing it right after the session.

[28:30]  That's particularly important in environments where you're outside playing with kids. doing physical activities to help them learn how to play and socialize or in group homes or in an SRT, which is our mental health 247 residential system where you're talking and you're working with kids a lot, but if you can jot a couple notes, it's really awkward to have a laptop there, right? you're typing, they know you're typing about you, but they can just scribble a couple things and they keep doing what they're doing with the client. That really helps them later when they're trying to put the whole process together and they don't forget as much, right? That's so good. So, doing a lot of things there and it also helps because it spell checks and it looks for language. So, um it really speeds the the checking of the note, the accuracy of the note up.

[29:18]  And and at when you implemented that, do you see less burnout and a different vibe in the team after implementing AI in that space? Did you get push back? You always get push back. It took us it took us 18 months. Well, almost a year to put it in place and we were about 70% acceptance now. Um so we rolled it out little by little, team by team and a lot of the teams just love it because it really it validates what they're working on. It helps with their spell checks. It gives them some confidence that they're doing it right.

[29:50]  And the program that we have, the way we implemented it and the way the software developer did it, it it's just fun. It says, "Yay, you did the right thing. Hey, no mistakes today. So, keep it up. You you know, you've done it in a shorter period of time." So, it's helped them reduce their paperwork, but it's also helped speed up the time of their paperwork, which is if you talk to most clinicians, that's the bane of their existence. So it has helped in morale but it's it's helped in a lot of variety of ways. Yeah. I like that. And if you could think about AI tool that maybe could go on your website and really navigate um communication through let's say the community or or you know patients whatever that may look like.

[30:29]  What would you want to see? You know AI being so advanced now. What would you actually like to see on your website that could potentially help you and your staff people in the community? maybe not on our website per se because in our business because we have such high acuity. Um there's a lot of talk now about website chat. Um but you can get into a lot of trouble with website chat if it's not clinically supervised and there's a variety of examples of that sadly where chat bots have just gone wrong with highly suicidal or manic folks. However, we're really looking at a um a great tool um for a clinically supervised chat that between sessions would have the person go through GHQ9, GAD 7, different

[31:17]  different sort of assessments and then they go into the chat and the chat has the 911 and has different security systems that flag the clinician if the person's chatting with the chatbot. But what it does is, let's say you had a session with Susie um on Tuesday. On Wednesday, Sus's captized and she pulls up the chatbot. She says she goes to the page, the GAD 7. She's Yeah. And her scores on depression go up and her anxiety is higher. Um and she's chatting away. And you see that on your screen as the clinician. And it's not a it's not an immediate thing that you have to call Susie back or text her back.

[32:00]  But when Susie comes back the next Tuesday, all that information is there for you. So that now you can say, "Hey, Susie, I saw that, you know, your do your your cat died. Um, let's talk about that. I see you you chatted a lot on Tuesday night, Wednesday night." Now, instead of spending 15 minutes to get to the core of the problem, you're already talking to her in the first minute or two of the sentiment, and you're getting to the things that are really um deep and important over that week of of life that she's lived. Um, so we're we're looking at tools like that that are clinically monitored that have safety protocols around them again to help the clinician get to the core of the healing issue sooner rather than

[32:47]  later. Be like going to your doctor and trying to explain a year worth of symptoms in 20 minute visit. You know, it's pretty hard to do unless you've done all your surveys and information ahead of time. That's good. No, definitely definitely valuable. Um, we're actually coming to to a closing, believe it or not, but I would ask if someone's listening and and they want to to help, maybe they just feel too small, maybe they they feel like, you know, they don't have the money to to donate, what's one thing they can do today to actually be of assistance.

[33:20]  Um, the most, you know, you could go to our website, SECS4, the number four kids. Um, there is a donate button there. Um, we don't do a lot of external fundraising. It's just not our thing. We live off what we make. We prefer to pour that money that you use for chicken dinners into the kids. Um, but the way they can help really is by listening to the people around them. Listen. Listen to people. Share a smile. You know, see if you see someone that's really dodging, just ask them how they're how it's going and mean it. You know, have a cup of coffee with a neighbor. You know, if you see someone in church just sitting by themselves, go sit with them or ask them to lunch. You know, sometimes it's just reaching out a little bit.

[34:07]  Making someone feel seen, heard. Yeah. Yeah. I agree. Right. Yeah. 100%, Ellen. 100%. So, we're to the point where we have a blind question. And um this this other leader that I spoke to uh earlier this week, he his whole he had a whole like rules of what it looked like for a leader after spending 30 plus years um in the nonprofit world. The a former lawyer went into the nonprofit world after having his own practice and loved every bit of it. And he says, "The reason I did it was because I was happy and never seemed like work." So his blind question was exactly that. Are you happy? And if you are, what actually makes you happy these days?

[34:50]  Wow, that's a great question. Um, am I happy? Yes, I'm happy. Um, yes, happiness is one thing. Joyful is another. So, I'm joyful and I'm happy. Um, and a lot of joy and happiness comes from taking a walk with my dog, giving my son a hug, enjoying the beautiful weather, um, talking to my parents, uh, seeing someone be healed, listening to stories of transformation.

[35:24]  All those things are joyful, happy things. Yeah. Yeah. And, and it all starts with you, right? It's the work that you put in. It's the conversations you're willing to have. It's getting uncomfortable at times. The walk with your dog, right? Like I I speak to people sometimes that are not happy but will still stay in the dark places you know but happiness it takes action right it just doesn't fall down you you have to do things to make you happy um and that sometimes surrounding yourself with good people um as you mentioned it could just be a walk outside I had another leader that says I just go planting I love plants so he goes in his garden you know whatever that may look like for someone like you have to find your happiness you have to find your why we all go through things because we are human and that's you know I always tell people life is like a roller coaster and

[36:10]  you tell me somebody that's not on this roller coaster then I'm like are you really living right because that's just what life brings us is the ups and the downs but I I ask you now uh we had the blind question from the last leader what is your question to the next leader that we actually interview here on hustle yeah that's a hard one Um, got to put you on the spot. Yeah. What's You know, maybe maybe it be uh how do you connect with God every day?

[36:46]  Oh, come on now. Yes, Ellen. How do you connect with God every day? That is a good question. I'm definitely we're going to I got to go back to these because I never write them down. So, I got to go always back to the interviews and look back at what it is. And when I when I hear it, I'm like, "Oh, that was so good." So I can only imagine that when I go back to this interview, Ellen, to refer you, I'm like, that was good.

[37:02]  Because you know what? Believe it or not, Ellen, I have a lot of leaders that come to me and speak here and faith and God is behind a lot of their leadership, you know, journey. And some will say, "Hey, but I'm not going to talk about it." And I'm like, "No, no, let's talk about it." So, I love that you said that because this is a platform that you can talk about whatever it is, which there's faith in God. Um, it's such a crazy thing. I actually listened to this leader and he says he he wants that with his organization because he wants people to show up their true selves. How do organizations say don't bring your faith-based into it but you want them to be themselves and come as themselves?

[37:38]  And I was like, you're right. Right. You got 3-day weekends. We have organizations where talk about whoever it is that you believe and get to know each other. You know, my my neighbor across the street, he's he's Catholic, but and and you know, I would say that I'm Christian, but it doesn't make it any different. We're both humans. our beliefs may be a little bit different, but I'm willing to hear from him. You know, he does I don't look at him any different. Um, so I love to have the conversation. So, good question. Good question, Ellen. Yeah. Superpower, right? God God is always the one that's giving you the energy to do it every day. So, 100%. Well, you kind of gave us a website a little bit, but if someone wanted to know more about the organization, know more about Ellen, what website, what social media platforms they can can can they visit?

[38:19]  really it would be um stcs the number4 kids kids.org og. That's our website. Um, we're going actually through a a new website. We'll launch it probably in the next week or so. So, that's pretty exciting. That's probably the best way to reach us. So, love it. Any social media, Instagram, Facebook that they can connect with you on a little bit. We're getting better at it. Um, but, you know, we're still, we tried it. We pulled back. You know, sometimes it's resources, sometimes it's just um I don't I'm marketing person, right? So that's kind of me in the early hours and late hour late nights. Um, but we're training. There's a couple people in the organization that are trying to learn and do some more of that. So yeah. Well, Ellen, thank you so much for the conversation. Thank you for really

[39:06]  pouring into our our leaders and for those listeners because truly I believe that every time we have a conversation or I have a conversation with another leader, there is so much that to be poured into others. Um, and and I hope that you guys are actually receiving it. And the you know how you guys can support here at the or at the uh heart and hustle podcast is just share, like and comment. We want to hear more of these stories. We want to see more leaders be more vocal, more vulnerable just like Ellen was today. We thank you.

[39:30]  And if you're still here watching, share this with another friend. We can't wait to see you guys on the next episode. My name is Ephrain. This has been Ellen. We'll see you guys on the next hard podcast.