How Ann Marie Cook Built a $22M Aging Services Movement by "Accident"

[0:01]  [music] Welcome back to an episode here on the hard hustle podcast. Our next guest says uh 29 years ago she was fighting for this job. Might be temporary, but today she run the $22 million movement for aging adults. Like what, Henry? How did you get there?

[0:32]  Well, honestly, by accident, really. I was looking to um relocate my job back to Rochester, New York, and got the opportunity to join Lifespan, which were a nonprofit serving older adults. I did think it was probably a couple year gig. Uh but 29 years later, I feel like every year is a different job, and I love every minute.

[0:56]  Oh, man. to to say that it still feels like a different job that you're loving it. It's clearly out of passion, out of purpose. I always mentioned it's not so much out of the paychecks. Um, what pulled you from that state policy into the nonprofit front lines? I mean, you definitely weren't always in the space. I did work for the New York State Legislature in the New York State Senate and loved every minute of that too, but it was uh I had just had uh my first child and going back and forth from Rochester to Albany in New York was too much. So really what I loved about government, what I love about nonprofit work is really helping people. So, you know, it's the uh kind of thread that has run through my career. And so, like I said, I thought given the opportunity to work at Lifespan, it may be a shortterm thing, but I got to fulfill really my goal of always helping people. And um then I ended up staying.

[1:53]  And you're not just running an organization, really scaling an organization is what you're doing. I mean, you grew this organization 10x. How do you still keep that soul of the mission while growing the organization? Yeah, I mean the organization I have to say I don't think you should give me too much credit. The organization grew because there are so many more older adults during that time frame. And when you begin looking at the data, that's where this becomes exciting, I think, in that there are just so many more older adults living longer and how do we support them in the community? And we're always asking different questions. How to do it better? You know, how do we serve them more? How do we ensure that people get the services and supports that they need? And that's what makes this job exciting. But I'm kind of living in a nonprofit that's on the the side of the demographics of you know, this huge influx for the first time ever in our history of more old people living longer. I I was just actually talking to my partner and um I think I told you I was adopted and I just spoke to this uncle that I have never spoken to a day in my life and he says, "Yeah, I'm taking care of uh his mom, which is also my grandma of 92 year old grandma." I said, "Wow." And then my partner says his grandma 92 years old. And I'm like, man, like I'm hoping to see 90 myself, you know. So you talk about people living longer. Yeah, for sure. And how do you think older adults are still showing up in in powerful ways that we actually overlook? Because I think that's also huge to talk about.

[3:27]  Yeah, it's a huge issue. I mean, what you just mentioned and I think in a lot of ways, uh, older adults are forgotten.

[3:34]  Uh, this sad part, a lot of ways they're overlooked. Um, but a but honestly, they're solving the problem most of the time themselves. And I will say they're the ones out there volunteering more than any other age group. It makes sense, doesn't it? Many older adults are retired, so they have the time. They're they're giving hundreds of thousands of hours in our community volunteering at food pantries and soup kitchens and in schools. They're doing that work. And I think older adults themselves are finding ways to make sure they're still relevant because we know that's so important as people age that they have purpose giving back and that they're trying to figure out um their own aging. Like you said, your grandmother's in her 90s. I mean, that's not that unusual today. It was 30 years ago. And a Time uh magazine article a few years ago was like the the kids born today are going to live to 100. Are they prepared? Are we prepared? I'm not sure we are.

[4:42]  This is completely off topic. Very intriguing actually as I think about us aging older. Um and and because when we think about just health reasons, right, the way that we eat, we talk about processed food. How are we living longer? It it like how is that happening? Yeah, I mean a lot of its medical advances as we know. I mean med medicine has advanced so far so quickly. You even begin looking at certain cancers that almost are being cured and for many people that just weren't the case 30, 40, 50 years ago. So we are living longer. We know more about heart health. We know more about brain health. Uh but it does come down to the basics, right? You have to eat healthy, exercise, have strong social connections, have purpose in life. And um it sounds easy for me to say and very difficult sometimes for people to do. So, you know, at lifespan, I always say, let's help with that health span. We know what people need to do to age well and how do we support those activities? Um, sometimes it's difficult and hopefully we will give people the opportunities to do that.

[5:58]  This is also another silly question, but I've recently read this and it was about dogs. You love animals?

[6:03]  I do like animals.

[6:04]  Okay. So, I love dogs. What do you love? Dogs, cats?

[6:07]  Dogs. Definitely dogs. [laughter]

[6:10]  Yes, same. Um, what I was hearing and I think it was like FDA approved me for the first stage that there's medication that we can give to dogs to live longer. And um I'm like wait a minute that's that's a thing and I I think I automatically thought humans like would that be a thing for humans if you're doing it obviously if you're testing on animals that there's reason why do you think that we see that in the future?

[6:33]  You know I really think there's endless possibilities. So I agree with you when we begin testing on animals what you often see is then we begin testing on humans later on. Who knows how long

[6:44]  it will be. Um I'm really not that focused. I will tell you on longevity. I think that we doctors do a great job, the medical community does a great job at that. I'm really every single day trying to figure out how do we increase people's quality of life and how do we ensure that they have the opportunities to live the life they want to live. So, you know, how do we get people to manage their own chronic conditions or at least learn about it? How do we get people connected to other people? Because we know social connections mean so much in terms of your health and well-being. So, I really look more at health span rather than the lifespan or longevity. Um, but it all matters and I do agree with you. Whatever they're testing on animals, I'm sure they'll be testing on humans 20 years from now.

[7:38]  Yeah. Oh my gosh. Times. Uh, so it's about being seen, you say? supported and strong every year that we personally get. Is that more of where you're in the space? Right? Is that what you're asking? Seeing.

[7:51]  Yeah. I love how you just said it's about being seen. That's a perfect way to see it. You know, and I think many older adults and I talk to them all the time feel like they're overlooked. Uh I'll give you an example, a personal example. My mother is 94 years old. She's an amazing woman. Lives by herself. Honestly, she is terrific, very smart. We'll go out to lunch together and people look at me for her order. Now, she's perfectly capable of ordering her own lunch. Um, but, you know, I think because she's smaller, she's in her 90s. Um, they look at her and may think she's frail. She's not. But that's an example, a small example, but a critical one. I think of often times older adults aren't seen. You said it perfectly and we need to make sure they're seen.

[8:47]  No, for sure. I I I had my um my grandma before she passed away and it was just, you know, because everyone was doing their own thing that she was just kind of in because she she wasn't really too mobile. So, one, we had we had a two store two-story home. She could only stay on the first floor, right? The kitchen, everything's upstairs. So, she really just stood in her room for the most part. and chair. So, we talked about what does that actually really do to the body, right? And and she felt alone. And then you start to hear her say, you know, I I'm not gonna make it, right? Because she understood where her body's at. She's understanding the needs. And I don't think that sometimes we ask what the need is. And I've been on the other end of things where I used to work for an airline industry and I used to get the elderly to call in and believe me, they'll speak for an hour, but those are some of the best conversations and I will hear like, "Oh my god, thank you." like I don't have conversations with people often and you sat here for a whole hour and one you helped me but you allowed me to just have fun with you and at that I'm like wow I have a friend that's he goes to um and this was pretty cool to actually see yesterday he does like MC work and he loves to dance that he goes into their nursing homes and you see him dancing with them and you just see the life that people do have you know so everything that you're mentioning is is so true and I think that we just don't um we're not educated enough into this space right so what what do you say to to those young individuals that may have aging parents like myself, what should we looking forward to?

[10:08]  Uh, I think it's hard for what's called the sandwich generation, those individuals who are raising children as well as trying to support uh aging parents or grandparents. So, first of all, I have to say hats off to those people because there's not enough hours in the day and fit work in there, too. So, I mean, crazy kind of stuff. I would say the best way to do it is to try to figure out how to have conversations about what people um need, planning needs, but also what they want. You know, I'm often shocked to be honest with you by when we enter into a situation, usually in a crisis, somebody's had some kind of health issue and no one in the family has talked about planning or what mom would prefer to do and everybody has different ideas, the siblings around the table, because no one's had that very difficult but important conversation. So, I'd say sometimes the most important thing to do is say, "Hey, mom, are you doing okay in the future? Uh, what would you like?" You know, "How can I support you better?" You know, uh, and sometimes it's very simple simple things that would make someone's lives better.

[11:25]  If the Heart and Hustle podcast has ever sparked any idea or made you think differently, do us a favor. Make sure to guys share this, post it on LinkedIn, or even text that nonprofit friend that you just have. Whatever works. This is what keeps the conversation going and allows us to just grow this community together. Seriously, we appreciate you. I was actually in shock when my mom came to us with exactly what you just mentioned. She's like, I have to have a conversation with all my kids. I would love to get together. She made it a bingo day. We're playing bingo, have lunch. But it was also, what does mom have to say? is she not okay? Like, and then she kind of expressed, hey, I just, you know, I'm getting older. I don't want you guys to be fighting when the time comes. I don't want you guys to have to worry about making decisions. I already made my decisions. Who's going to carry out my decisions? Who's going to do XYZ? And for us as, you know, her kids, we're like, what what the heck is happening here? But understanding that is a conversation that needs to be had because people don't have it. And we've also seen and you've probably seen this where now families are at the end of you know somebody's passing and now they're fighting because this person wants this as you just mentioned this person wants this and you know all these different pieces and no one really knows what mom or dad ever wanted.

[12:36]  No question about it. What a gift your mother gave you really of initiating the conversation that really every family needs to have. um and ensure that you know at the end of someone's life or in I don't know if that's 20 years or 5 days that everybody can be on the same page and enjoy everyone's company because it will change. We know that. So what a gift your mother gave and I hope other families do the same thing.

[13:03]  Yeah, for sure to take that. It's a hard conversation but we're all going to see that day. It's so have it now as as you mentioned we don't know if it's five days, five years, five hours. Um,

[13:13]  right.

[13:14]  Another thing I want to talk about that is very important that you mentioned was elder abuse. Still under the radar.

[13:20]  What needs to change?

[13:22]  Yeah, incredibly under the radar. I I mean, I have to say to this day, which is shocking to me, people don't understand that elder abuse even exists. And when they do understand it, they consider it like child abuse and domestic violence was 40, 50 years ago, that it's a family issue. It's not a family issue. It's very serious. What we end up seeing is that a lot of times it begins as financial exploitation that there is some sort of financial impropriy. People justify taking their loved ones money by um by saying, "Well, I'm going to inherit it anyway."

[14:02]  And of course, oftentimes what we see is that money is financially exploited. the older adult doesn't know about it and then doesn't have enough money for their own care. So, it's a very serious problem. Another very serious kind of related issue is scams. I have to say I it's an explosion right now in people getting scammed. And I like almost talking about it. every presentation I talk about because what we're seeing are older adults are being scammed on average of about $10,000 and for many people

[14:37]  and for a lot of people $10,000 even if you're wealthy is a lot of money but it really rocks someone's confidence and it really takes away their dignity and independence and so we're seeing everything from you know grandma I'm in jail kind of scam to this is you know the government the IRS and you owe money to the IRS or social security kind of government impostor scams uh all the way to romance scams. We've seen a lot of romance scams as more and more people are online. Um so people are getting financially exploited by close family members and friends but also scammed by unscrupulous people out there. And we really really always talk about to everybody pause and think before you send any money certainly any gift cards or anything. It's probably a scam.

[15:34]  There's also the things that we uh people don't think of is someone going with um unanswered questions spiraling into crisis, right? Can we talk a little bit about that? You have a lot of you know experiences. There's just so many different things that when we talk about elderlys of what's going on of how their lives take turns um whether it's that financial whether it's the unanswered questions is feeling alone no one to speak to. Can we kind of talk about that those answered questions and how that spirals as well? Yeah, it it's honestly one of the biggest things that we do that I think is of value to people because a lot of people don't think about you don't think about senior housing or assisted living or memory care or nursing home until you need that or until your family needs it. And really what people need I think at that point is information, understanding of options and how to pay for those options. And you know here at Lifespan, I know other places around the country, you know, I always say the biggest thing we can do pe for people is answer the phone like when you were said you were working for the airlines and someone can talk to a real person

[16:39]  so they can explain their situation and we can begin to narrow down for them the decisions that need to be made in the short term, how you make those decisions, how you pay for some of that care, and so the family can take that or the older adult can take that and run with that care plan. Later on, we can pick up other things uh with them of things they need to plan for or consider, but immediately. Most of the time, people are calling us with an immediate question, an immediate situation, and I'm always measuring how often did we just pick up the phone live instead of leave someone leaving a voicemail because that's what they need, a live person on the end of that call.

[17:23]  I love that. And you guys offer so many different things. What are some of the things? I mean, we talked about um so many different, but you guys have a monthly calendar. You guys have events, classes. What does that look like from the organization lifespans? Um you know, and the resources you guys provide.

[17:37]  Yeah, we we really, which is a bit unusual uh of other places around the country, we have all the aging services under one roof. So, if your mom needs a grab more grab bars in the bathroom or to raise her toilet seats, we can come out and do that. We have social workers that can come out and do an assessment of these are things that might make your life easier. We have specialized social workers who work with loved ones who have a family member with dementia or like you talked about earlier, somebody who may be being taken advantage of, elder mistreatment. And we have a lot of senior centers. We have a food cupboard for older adults who really are low income and need extra food. We have over 30 programs and services. And if you go to our website, you'll see classes all the time about aging issues and how you p plan legally or financially or to understand housing or to understand Medicare, which one would think would be easy to understand. It's not. But our whole goal is to make life easier for older adults so they can take on those challenges and opportunities of longer life and make a better quality of life.

[18:52]  I love it. I love that you're in this space. I can imagine you just get your cup filled every single day just doing the work that you do. But is there a story that really stuck with you that you remember that I would say maybe still haunts you?

[19:05]  Yeah, I you know it's a very good question. There's a lot of stories that still haunt me. I'm going to say, you know, one of the early cases, I'm going to go back way back 29 years. We received a case from a gentleman um he was actually financially exploited and he used to be a art restore. I mean, talk about an unusual job, but he restored art and really wasn't on the business end of things, but would restore art, hit a lot of art. He was financially exploited. really all of his art, his beautiful art taken and um his money taken. And we received that case as his guardian to help him. And we were able to find him housing. Quite frankly, not the kind of housing, lowincome housing that he was used to, but we found him housing. And he said, "I have one wish. I can't even afford to go to the art museum anymore. I'd like to go." So, of course, we took him to the Memorial Art Gallery here in Rochester, New York. And and um he went around and he told me, he was very funny about they need different lighting for this painting or, you know, explaining different works of art. But um what I loved about kind of the end of his life, which we walked in on and able to support him, was that even though he went through this horrible tragedy of losing everything, he still had this incredible knowledge and um ended up where he was placed in housing, ended up teaching art classes to people. So, you know, I I I love that too as a success story of someone who had gone through so much trauma but still able to use his gifts for others. And it was a wonderful experience really watching him because it was really him um picking up a lot of pieces. I love the stories and I've heard so many of individuals that at the end of life they have this wish um and is granted because organizations like yourself that really [clears throat] help them and these people get to die at peace. Uh to give you a quick story that I thought was really uh pretty cool was it was a it was a um uh I think they he was actually at home. He was doing it at home. Um so he had a caregiver. So they came and the kids was like I don't he should not be on morphine. I don't want him to have morphine. But that was the only thing that was going to kind of get him to feel better. So she asked, "What is your what is your wish? Like what would you like to do?" And his response, "I want to shoot a bear." And she's like, "Oh, okay. Well, you know, that's farfetched, but well, we we have to start with morphine. We have to get you, you know, up. We got you." The kids were like, "No." Um, she was very like, "Hey, don't worry. We're going to get it where you can press it on your, you know, your time, XYZ's." And he ends up, you know, weeks later feeling better and and you know, saying, "Oh, you can't take this away cuz they wanted to take away." And he's like, "No, no, no. I need this." He ends up going to shoot a bear. So the first bear, he goes shoots with her first son, doesn't get it. Second bear, he goes shoot with the second son, doesn't get it. The third bear, he shoots by the third time with his last child, and then he passes away months later. And it's like, wow, he died at peace. He died doing the things he wanted to do, spending more time with his kids, shooting a bear, right? Like, so it's cool that we we're in a space of technology. We're in a we're in a space where where things are just so different that we could really help people live their life to the fullest. You mentioned about the the art. I think there's people don't understand these elderly were us at one point, right? They were CEOs. They they were teachers. They were whatever it was in their professions. so much knowledge. Why do we not have those conversations, right? That when we talk about learning, that's a learning tree. Do you are you am I saying anything wrong here, Ann?

[23:05]  We're saying everything right. Quite frankly, I I do think it's part of the country's history, you know, that we unlike other countries, I think we were just a young country. always valued that independent spirit, you know, kind of go west, conquer, you know, we really didn't think of older adults as a key part of the community. And really, I will say, you know, our longevity's really exploded in the last 50 years. It's not like it's been a conversation for a long time. We just haven't had that many older adults in the last half a century. So, um, I think it's part of our history. It's part of our culture to value younger people, but we have to figure out a way in which we're accepting of all people regardless of their age. And you know, we, you know, I think it's a key conversation that we need to have and we need to start talking about agism and um the negative impacts of agism and how do we accept people of all ages? Aren't we going into like a silver tsunami where we'll have more 65 year olds than uh the age of 18 and under or something like that? I mean, are we prepared for that? It seems like we're not.

[24:20]  I don't think I don't think we're prepared. And I use that stat all the time. For the first time in American history, in a couple years by 2030, we will have more older adults than children for the first time ever in American in history. I use that stat all the time. And most people don't realize that they're not focused on this demographic, a huge demographic shift that we have right now. And I think it has public policy implications. You know, there's a lot of professions here now in which we have workforce shortages. Um, but we still, you know, you hear people in conversations still wondering why isn't that person retired? You know, uh, people use that question all the time. Well, the reality is we need people to stay in the workforce longer. We don't have enough workers here in this country. So, you know, I think that we have to prepare ourselves for an older population and prepare ourselves for what does that mean? And if people are going to spend 30, 40 years in retirement, how do you prepare not only mentally but also financially for that kind of longevity?

[25:30]  And what a good what a good conversation. And I know I'm I'm 35. I've got some ways, but it's really cool to understand the conversation of where we're going cuz I think um when even you mentioned like people don't get it when we talk about there's going to be more older than younger. It we don't right because we're in the age where we don't see it. We don't care about it, but we're going to be at that point in our lives whether it's us physically or our parents are getting there. Just talked about my mom, you know, now being over 60. What What does she have another 20, 30 years? What does that look like? um we have to have these conversations a little bit more, right? We're all going to get older. We all know someone um that we love that is going to need this care. Um and the work is already personal, you know, like to be quite frank. I I really appreciate the time. What where can people find more information? I mean, things that you guys are doing. What's the website?

[26:19]  I mean, certainly go on lifespan rochester.org oorgg and you can look at all of our different offerings. But I also say to people, we have connections with other agencies across the country. So if people and we get these calls all the time, you know, someone may live here in Rochester, but their parents live in Florida now. How do we get help there? We can connect people to those organizations that are closest to them. And really our whole goal is to help older adults live fulfilling lives and help those family caregivers, those incredible people who are caring not only for their older parents and children get the support they need too to help their family member make the right decision.

[27:03]  I love this. Well, and it's time that we have to start wrapping up, but I do have a blind question for you. So, I put you in the hot seat. Actually, this is the last question that we have here for you. So hopefully you enjoyed your conversation. But what's a one moment of care someone showed you that changed you forever?

[27:19]  Wow, that is incredible. One moment of care. That is a very good question. Um I would say every single day I get to see older adults and this happened a couple months ago during the SNAP crisis, you know. So, SNAP was suspended for a while and I saw a bunch of very lowincome older adults

[27:43]  emptying out their cupboards to bring donations to our food cupboard and them saying I can get through the weekend so I whatever was extra I'm going to give to somebody else. And I thought that is just incredible that these individuals who don't have enough food themselves are making uh it enough so that somebody else can eat. And you know when I thought about that caring moment I thought if everybody in this country was as caring as those individuals uh it would be a better place to live. [snorts]

[28:21]  You say that and I feel like America is that. I mean, I know that we don't see it and sometimes we don't feel it. But I mean, look what happened during the pandemic and how people were able to come together. And of course, there was the other side of it as well, but I do feel that as America, if we're just educated enough, if we really get to spend more time um caring for others and have a little bit more empathy, we all have a story, you know, we we we are going through something today. So, it it I love that story. And yes, I wish more people could do that. like we wouldn't have so much anxiety, depression, and feeling alone, all these different things if we just show up sometimes, just have a conversation, say hello to people. Like that's it, you know? So, and kudos to you for almost three decades of doing this work. Like, what how many more decades you think you got, Ann?

[29:10]  Well, let's do this again in 10 years, then I'll let [laughter] you know.

[29:13]  All right, let's do it in 10 years. And thank you so much, guys. Guys, if you guys are still watching, make sure that you guys do like, subscribe, and comment. This has been Ann and we appreciate your time. And listen, if 10 years we're still doing podcast, you still in that same seat, I'm coming for you, guys.

[29:27]  Awesome. I look forward to it.

[29:29]  All right, guys. Take it easy. We'll see you guys in the next one. Fighters.