How This Nonprofit CEO Grows Their Organization Like a Startup

[0:00]  have you ever had a tough conversation maybe with somebody who you love like your father who pushed you to become something greater than what you expected well that's exactly what happened in today's conversation today we sit down with the CEO of Lutheran Community Services Northwest David joins the show as we talk about what it's like to be the CEO of a multi-state organization that's having a huge impact in the community what Innovation means and also how we reinforce ourselves to be the leader that organizations need in times of growth today's an awesome conversation let's get into it staying cool and calm is just one of the things I think my parents gave me and so I don't know if I can take any credit for that um I used to work in my first job out of college was working in in a boy's home and there could be a riot going on and I'd come in and it would just be

[0:48]  calm you know I just I I don't know what it was um and I I'm overly like a lot of CEOs I'm overly optimistic about how quickly things are going to happen and so I've learned at my my 23 years as a as a nonprofit CEO have have have taught me that they're never as quick as you think they're going to be uh this thing that I can see coming together uh over the next month or two has been a three-year slog I mean just slog uh with really good I mean super amazing good people but with was hard and so I having that having that long-term Vision uh is is is super

[1:37]  important and then finding people uh that can help uh Implement uh is is just if not more important David you said that you are a dreamer and everybody who's watching today of this episode can see that you have a really cool pin of glasses on your jacket what's that all about yeah oh I appreciate that yeah um this is a lapel pen well it's actually a tie pin but I wear it on my lapel and it's just a constant reminder to tell me to focus um and so I've got a ton of them and um

[2:27]  I've I've had staff say we love your Vision we love that you dream all the time just stop it okay we we need to catch up and so this is a reminder for me is like everything that I try to implement and start has a consequence for our staff uh and one cool thing about this if I'm at a conference or if I see you if you comment on it like I did this on an airplane the other day I'm going to give you the pen because I've got a whole bunch of backups so you know I was uh in 2017 2018 I was really focusing on like social interactions and one of the things that they say to do in order to start conversations and social elements is to always have something that attracts attention that people don't expect and that is that pin right there man so it's an amazing way to start conversations with interesting people who are interested enough to ask

[3:14]  that's really cool yeah and that's why I keep wearing it because I've been amazed how many people Everyone comments on it so I appreciate you know what I'm seeing yeah man you know there's an element about being the vision Caster that I want to kind of dive into I recently read a book by an author named Kevin Kelly he said you lead by letting others know what you expect of them which often may exceed what they expect of themselves provide them a reputation to live up to what do you think about that oh it's convicting I love it it's something I'm trying to get better at cuz um I don't micromanage um and sometimes that's not a great thing so I that's a very timely I'm going to write that one down it's very timely because I'm trying to improve uh really sort of uh helping people you know discover how great they

[4:07]  can be uh and part of that is just not micromanaging right but they need that vision of where we're going uh and so I've experience that with with a number of my staff uh just very recently you know this is an element that I want to kind of double click on which is an element of trust in leadership I speak to a lot of different CEOs and sometimes CEOs and leaders ERS who are earlier in their path have a really tough time relinquishing control over things they want to be the guy they think they can do everything the best and often when we relinquish power we give OPP people the opportunity to stretch and that's where they kind of find that magic why are you kind of leaning into that as your leadership style so much part of it is just necessity uh the story of Lutheran Community Services Northwest over my last 10 years has been one of of growth

[4:57]  uh and our CFO has said this feels like St up growth because we keep growing each year uh and you can't keep up uh if you're not trusting your staff and uh it's been hard for me because I I grew up doing programs and and being involved in a lot of things and now as the CEO of this large three-state complex organization you can't do it all I can't show up to every event and so uh but it's also where I get my most Joy is seeing people succeed uh so part of letting people just fly on their own is is I get to you know sit back and someone explained this to me once and I I didn't get it until I I got to Lu from is you know I cast a vision or whatever and then my role is a cheer I'm a Cheerleader that is my role

[5:46]  and it never really got that until the last couple years why did you come to that realization this is a really interesting conversation about the maturation of you as a leader so I want to kind of double click on that yeah um you know I think some times we overestimate our own abilities I know I know that I do and um so I think one of the things that I do well is I listen and so listening and and and I also provide a safe environment for uh staff on our executive team and I could tell you a story about someone just on sort of the beginner level they have uh an opportunity to give me feedback and and uh so when and I truly listen and sometimes it's not right I mean let's be honest sometimes

[6:33]  the feedback is they don't have the whole story and and so I've learned to take uh what is useful um not you know and it's all useful but you know there's there's always nuggets even if someone's really upset with you there's some nuggets of Truth in there that you can learn from um so I think that's probably part of my journey uh I always want to get better as a leader uh we're going through some challenging times right now um and uh it's it's it's it's it's making me I believe it's making me better you know one of my uh favorite leaders that I see on social media I actually have his book right here and my marketing director always yells at me he says you know we need to get an affiliate code because you plug this book in this author so much guy named Gary vaynerchuk um he talks about being

[7:21]  a leader in Easy times is easy but true leadership show when the challenging times peer their head around the corner so if you don't mind can we kind of double tap into you can state generalities of course what are some of the challenges that you kind of are navigating in your space well uh one of the things that you know when we've um a lot of our growth has been organic you know we just we do Refugee resettlement and and uh mental health behavioral health all of those kind of things and and those are needs that are growing so that organic growth is a little bit easier it's not easy but it's a little bit easier than when you acquire uh a full formed program and we've got a beautiful affiliate um that uh right now that we're you know you've got those

[8:08]  growing pains and you've got your change management and and uh to truly achieve impact which is what we're all about is how do we impact more of our clients whether if they're homeless um or if they've got a mental health crisis or they're a refugee from a different country um we need to affect uh impact that's lasting and so um yeah I I think that's you know sort of the focus of these crisis times I was I actually said a few months ago to our Co hi a lake is like gosh we hav't had of Crisis for a while I'm a little bored uh of course you don't manage them but that's why you're there and I we had a

[8:55]  special board meeting with their board of directors just to give them information uh about how the affiliation is growing and the integration of our services uh and it's really challenging but I can see that we're like a month or two away from greatness uh and there's so many great players on on there's we're all one and I'm trying to be General but the um I think good leaders can see through the storm you know they can see it and like all the all the pieces right now Keenan are falling in place and I I I told my wife last night I'm a little giddy cuz those I I knew they were there and they're finally falling in into place this is an interesting concept

[9:43]  that I've been struggling with on my maturation Journey but also as a leader and being an entrepreneur at the same time is I'm trying to think about things on a longer time Horizon when we want things to happen next month we make certain types of decisions we want things to happen a decade from now we make different types of decisions do you think you've been able to harness that longer time Horizon perspective as part of your ability to stay cool and calm in these times of turbulence if you will staying cool and calm is just one of the things I think my parents gave me and so I don't know if I can take any credit for that um I used to work in my first job out of college was working in in a boy's home and there could be a riot going on and I'd come in and it would just be calm you know I just I I don't know what it was um and I I'm overly

[10:35]  like a lot of CEOs I'm overly optimistic about how quickly things are going to happen and so I've learned it my my 23 years as a as a nonprofit CEO have have have taught me that they're never as quick as you think they're going to be uh this thing that I can see coming together uh over the next month or two has been a three year slog I mean just slog uh with really good I mean super amazing good people um and uh so but was hard and so I I having that having that long-term Vision uh is is is super important and then finding people uh

[11:23]  that can help uh Implement uh is is just if not more important 23 years as a nonprofit CEO one of the things that we talked about in our previous conversation was the prevailance of CEO burnout in nonprofit positions you know I was talking to a a CEO yesterday from United Way and we were talking about our goals unfortunately often turning into Horizons he said you know when we get it right our goals are a Finish Line an event or a destination but when we get it wrong often they're a horizon meaning we take one step towards them they move one step further away from us how have you been able to keep your goals on this 23-year journey from turning into those Horizons where it seems like you can't grab them oh gosh I'm not good at that yeah I I think that that hits hard

[12:11]  because uh I'm a bit of a goal freak and uh I put people around me that that we I'm in goal accountability groups some are just personal and obviously a lot of them are professional uh one of the things I've enjoyed is going back and looking at those J and those and like oh my gosh we did that um and uh also with the realization that you know some of the work that we're trying to do is never going to be done you know there will always be um human suffering there always be need and if that's our core mission is is Health Justice and hope uh there is no Finish Line and just realizing that you know um there's there's Market

[13:02]  marketable things that we achieve whether we open a new building or a line of service or we've served so many seniors that are living in their home um but it doesn't end and so that's one of the hard parts that's why when I I'll go back to the ranch where I used to work with the boys I love doing the dishes cuz the dishes were done you know and the kids were never done they always working but I could do those dishes during a break and it's like yep that's done so there's a there's an interesting element that I want to dive into here which is often when we come across challenges and missions that we're trying to accomplish that will never end that can seem incredibly defeating but if we think about them as freeing because we're never going to be able to

[13:49]  really accomplish this goals it gives us the opportunity to experim to be curious to think about how we can get this job done differently how do you think about the role of curiosity in kind of your role and your character traits as a leader yeah I appreciate that question and curiosity is so important in any role I think there's there's a bit of a tide shift in the social service Human Services sector where it's it's uh Innovation is more accepted um curiosity is more accepted uh for example the way we used to do therapy would be all right you know Kean we got for three sessions we're going to build trust right and then we'll finally move on well the evidence and some innovators have shown

[14:37]  no you move on to the stuff really quickly and there's these new evidence-based practices and there's too many to mention um but there's we I'm proud of our sector for embracing Innovation uh it's hard to fail fast when you're dealing with a human being and they might have Suicidal Tendencies or they're homeless or um so we need to find safe ways to fail fast um and to try things and be an entrepreneur like you um so it it's it's an excit I think it's an exciting time in the social service sector for us to really utilize our entrepreneurial Spirits there's a there's an interesting tie to the entrepreneurial Spirit which I think is really tough to cultivate inside of a

[15:25]  nonprofit organization I was listening to a keynote the other day by Jeff Bezos and he was talking about the willingness to experiment and fail as a huge part of the culture of Amazon now he said this in the realm of a mistake that they made a $690 million mistake if anybody remembers who's watching and listening today Amazon at one point in time tried to create the fire phone to compete with the iPhone and the Google pixel he said that was a n or $690 million mistake but guess what we got out of that we got Alexa The Voice agent if you will and we also got the Kindle so one of the things that I have to constantly do as the leader of our organization is create the safe space for us to be able to experiment to be able to make mistakes and fail forward but that's incredibly tough in a space that's dealing with

[16:12]  humans but also comes from the mental and Behavioral Health space where there's not always a culture of experimentation to do things differently yeah yeah I'll give you some I I think we've got some examples one of the ways that we're structured we're in Washington Oregon and Idaho and we can talk about Florida later um but um one of the nice things is we got these very creative District directors and um Sharon in the Tri Cities is really good at experimenting she's very she's a champion to be the employer of choice which is the mantra for the for the entire agency and they just experimented with a 4-day work week uh she collected data it was in the safe environment they are all seeing their clients they're all um uh uh meeting the needs of the clients which is which is number one uh

[17:02]  and trying to prevent burnout and and then we've we've got Peter down in Portland that's experimenting with a different uh way of case notes things of that nature so I think there are ways uh and and we all get together on a quarterly basis we call it the Q slam quarterly strategic leadership meeting uh and then we compare those notes and uh and people sometimes brag about their failures so we've done a good job of creating that culture that uh where we can you know learn from each other uh and we haven't developed anything as cool as Alexa or the fire but we've done some pretty amazing things through just constant Innovation you know one of the things

[17:49]  that I think is important to talk about is the growth that you've been able to accomplish so one thing I recognize is there's growth for growth sake and we can look at that as in how large the organization is but I like to kind of boil this down to the idea of trajectory being more important than growth and the example i' like to share is it's very different to be the richest man in the world and then next year you're the fifth richest man in the world which feels like a huge downgrade compared to being an example of 350 now you're 246 you're not as rich as the fifth man but the trajectory that you feel in growth is really sustainable and it makes you feel different how do you think about the idea of TR trory compared to just growth in general about what you guys have been able to accomplish yeah it's a great question uh one of one of the challenges I have is

[18:38]  when I do um public speaking is is talking about our growth because going from 30 million to10 million that's not a social server Mark uh service marker that you know we want to brag about because it's not about the size of your organization it's about the impact we're in the mission to impact people's lives but it does especially for our you know our folks in the audience that are that are more business-minded they're like oh okay and and I've been surprised how much they want to invest in that um and so but back to your question you know one of the things that we're trying to do is create systems that can increase impact and that actually might might uh shrink our budget you know if I can if I

[19:27]  can make us 10% % or our team can make us 10% more efficient from the back office uh and utilizing Ai and and all of the tools that we have to make us more efficient and our budget goes down but we help 10% more people that's how we should be measuring ourselves it's just way more difficult to measure H you know how someone's life is improved versus your budget or your staff size um those are easy there's a unique perspective I recently had a individual on the podcast he's a CEO out of uh the Illinois area organization nonprofit called Little Friends he said you know we've seen substantial growth similar to what you guys have accomplished over the last 5 years but one of the nuances is our team

[20:16]  has actually shrunk during that time and one thing I had to do was break beliefs about growth meaning we' had to have more people and often I get a lot of push back from people who have an idea that growth means more jobs more people but growth often means more bloat in inefficiencies what do you think of that oh I'm nodding for those that can't see I'm noting because yes it's so true you do need you do you know it it can go both ways right you can be too lean there are nonprofits that are just too lean where they brag about a 10% administrative rate which I'm like n yeah I one I don't believe you and two you know are you do you have the infrastructure for growth um but that that bloat uh is a real deal and those are real people and it's one

[21:06]  of the biggest challenges we have as nonprofit leaders is finding that sort of sweet spot and uh we we were talking about it at our cabinet meeting the other day about hey we've got some we've got a lot of uh uh Enterprise uh projects going on right now I don't think we need to hire we need to we need to contract and so we contract for 18 months it's a little bit more expensive but uh you know then we move on and so and and part of those contracts we're evaluating is does it allow us to shrink our administrative rate um and uh so we can do put more of our resources into impact uh and one of the one of our big initiatives is is salaries it used to be

[21:55]  people came and worked for nonprofits and you just did it at the goodness your heart if you paid me that would be great I'd love it um but that's no longer the case and it's all and and and we're growing up as a sector is like hey we need to people pay people at market rate and a fair living wage that's a huge value for us and so we've done a lot of things to to get to where we want to be we're not quite there yet but we're much closer than we were five years ago I'm really interested in the people problem you know often people think about the business challenges they have as we have a marketing problem we have an innovation problem we have an XYZ problem instead of thinking about those things through the lens of we just don't have a person who can Market we don't

[22:42]  have a person who can help us innovate we don't have a person who can XYZ but the thing I recognize is when we can attract top talent and we can pay them well we might pay 15% over Market but the results that those people create are five times more than a b player how do you think about a track in the next generation of great leaders and innovators to be able to impact the space in the organization yeah I think it that goes handing love with your last question as far as as bloat and and having a smaller but more capable team um it's a little bit of a challenge because one of the things about social sector is we can attract people that are one very mission-minded and so they're going to give you their heart and soul um they might not have the experience and sometimes our business model is to

[23:31]  give them the experience uh and that is something that we've embraced and we know that they're going to work for us for five years and then they might move on hopefully with us to a different job um but when you're talking about marketing and those backend um back office jobs uh we have a huge competitive advantage over business and that's our mission um and if we can match it where we we had people like give up 10 to 15% of their salary to come work for us um but they're not going to give up 20 or 50 50% so I think you know I agree with you if we could get you know in some positions 10 15 20% over Market uh and by the way they can they can do the work of two to three

[24:20]  people this is an interesting conversation about kind of the Next Generation so I had the pleasure of interviewing some of the Nations largest organization leaders from people in culture right and one of the trends that I heard was gen Z specifically is more interested in the mission in the impact of the organization even over dollars and this is surprising and so when it comes to being able to lead with Mission which I'm also going to kind of lump into the idea of brand here how do you kind of think about that being your guys's superpower you just kind of touched on a little bit but how are you guys leveraging it strategically yeah uh we've done a much better job under recruitment materials in our interview process to start telling stories you know with the AF Gan crisis and the ukan crisis we do Refugee

[25:09]  resettlement um and people come to us because they want to be a part of that I had people from Starbucks and Microsoft and Amazon we're in the Northwest so we've got all those all those Brands and all those companies where I I want to do something that has a a meaningful difference I still need to make it decent salary um but I don't need to make as much as I was so that we're we're doing a much better job of our story one of our challenges too and this goes back to be I'm I'm Lutheran Norwegian is we don't brag you know we we are we are taught to be humble and uh I mean we're a little bit like this we're like no no no stop stop give you know but um but we do uh we are getting to and

[25:58]  I've got some mentors around the country that are doing a much better job of branding themselves but also their organizations yeah you hit on a spot we need to improve we are improving on it but yeah it's we we don't tout ourselves as much as we should it's it's an interesting like vector to have to think about right because it's a vulnerability especially when we're trying to collect and attract the Next Generation brand is something and Mission is something that these people really care about and when the first thing people are doing when they're going to look for a job is like what relevance do they have in our Marketplace in our community and how are they showing that and so even the idea of media and you not being you know somebody who likes to get out and tell your story or be you know the braggadocious leader that so many people are which is a skill set but I also

[26:46]  think that there's an opportunity for great leaders to be able to show what their organization is about by showing up and telling the story as well completely yeah yeah I'm actually trying to adjust my schedule more more so I can get get out more so that's part of the again that's part of what we talked about earlier is getting out of the dayto day as a CEO you have to and you have to trust your staff so you can get out and also I need to get those younger you know gen Z folks helping me write my talk you know what do you what do you guys want to hear and what you what don't you want to hear it's really important that is really important you know often we think of speaking a message that comes from our unique perspective but in order to meet people where are right we have to be able to understand what things are important to them which is super cool I want to I

[27:33]  want to talk a little bit about your maturation Journey over these 23 years and it kind of get us into this realm let's take us back to you know 22 23 years ago you have an opportunity David to meet yourself in a private moment and give yourself advice for how you're going to navigate the next two decades what would you say to that younger version of David yeah we touched it on on a little bit like don't do everything thing you know don't do everything um really focus your efforts on Talent acquisition um coaching coaching coaching coaching do spend more time casting your vision in a very clear way uh I know exactly what it is sometimes I

[28:20]  have trouble getting in out um and uh and then again going back to the glasses Focus you know uh you know just I I think I would focus more um take more risks uh some of the best uh one of the things I'd like to do is fund raise uh because I believe in our mission so much and uh some of the best success that I've had is just just being brave and asking for ridiculous gifts from people and just being surprised yeah we love to invest in you um and and the other one that's touching home right now is like keep take keep modeling work life balance um and I don't know if that's the right phrase maybe you have a better

[29:07]  one but um you know just taking care of your own mental health your physical health so you can be the best leader um we can fall into the Trap of working 60 80 hours a week and not really taking care of ourselves what about the idea of work life integration oh better yeah yeah over the years we've seen a dramatic shift and the buzzwords of work life balance has been very popular but that balance when you're in different seasons is very tough how have you kind of recognized the seasons have changed as a CEO I'm sure you've spent the 100 hour weeks the 80 hour weeks and now you're focusing on being in a different phase how's that been for you um yeah you're you're you're at a time where I I had a sabatical uh we have a

[29:56]  sabatical uh policy every seven years anyone that works our organization can take a month sabatical uh doesn't count against your vacation or anything like that I had it scheduled and because of some things I couldn't delegate I had to I had to I had to postpone it um I love the term integration um when I started this job I was struggling with work life balance and one of my mentors said David this isn't this isn't a career this is a calling and um and so the integration word is perfect because uh you know when I'm speaking at a church or I'm speak it a lot of times it doesn't feel like work um so I think the integration piece I'm I'm going to take that I that that's a

[30:44]  gift so thank you for that um the other thing I'm acutely aware of is I need to balance this stuff for the staff and for the executive team and for the leadership I just I need to I need if I'm not doing it they're going to be um our our chief advancement officer Jamie uh we have so many events around the Northwest and she said if you go to all of them then I have to go to all of them and so I need you to balance and so we we had a great meeting just okay what are the top ones I need to be at and I I can't be at again if I'm at all of them that sort of sucks the air out right and I'm not giving other people opportunities to shine and a lot of times people don't want to hear from me so I just need to realize

[31:32]  that I I would say that you are deservant of being heard um so I'll push back on you a little bit there you know there's a there's one interesting topic that I've been waiting to bring up in a conversation with a guest and this is kind of aimed at being a little bit more reflective with perspective so as a CEO right we have so much responsibility and so much Vision that we're casting in ideas that are constantly brewing in our head how do you separate the identity of David compared to the work that you do as a CEO because I know a lot of younger leaders often get wrapped up in this is who I am but there's obviously a healthy separation between who you are and the business role that you perform how do you do that it's interesting because I when I'm with my kids or my family or

[32:21]  where on vacation or um there's a silliness that comes out there's a kid that comes out more and and sometimes I wonder do I need to do that more at work um I try uh I try to be my authentic self at work and and I don't think staff would say I have trouble being vulnerable um and uh so yeah that's a great qu that's a great question I wish I have a great answer for it it's going to I'm going to think about that one a lot um yeah I know yeah that's good good question um I I I want to ask I want to ask my team what do they think um because but they don't see me on

[33:08]  vacation mode they don't see me um you know out in the woods and stuff sometimes they see me we have some charity golf events or something like that they'll see me but anyway good question one of the things that was a really interesting data point um from the pandemic that happened was employ engagement with CEOs and SE Suite Executives went up across all businesses why because we were able to see the CEO in an environment like what we're in right now we could see them in the house we saw kids dogs walking around it created a hum a humanistic element of the leaders of our organization and I'm kind of interested in that that idea of authenticity as being part of showing Who David is that silly side at the same time yeah yeah yeah one of the things

[33:57]  that we have this thing called David's corner where we do exactly this so um once or twice a month I just interview a staff um I prefer it this method um our comms team likes me to do it live I think it loses something um but that's a chance where I ask them you know really important questions about their work but then what's your favorite dessert you know ocean versus Mountain things like that and so um that the the pandemic did give us a uh and engagement is so important so that's a really good data point I hadn't heard that yeah it's a really interesting concept so you know one of the areas that I want to kind of touch on here is in our previous conversation you were very intentional about using the word coach and you've mentioned it a

[34:45]  couple times here today who is one coach either professional I've got Kobe Bryant and a whole bunch of sport stuff around here that maybe you look up to or a coach that has been a mentor for you who's impacted your leadership style yeah the the one that jumps out was uh I went to undergraduate to Pacific Lutheran University we had this famous code Frosty westering uh I went I was it's a long story that we don't want to talk about but I went there I was supposed to play football and then I got hurt and then I got hurt um and but I was able to really be in classrooms with him uh our class was fortunate to um to uh help him write his book make the big time where you are uh and he was just one of those guys that just he could

[35:32]  have coached at any college um for any college team in the nation he really could have but he couldn't do what he could do at PO with the methodology and so it really I love that title make the big time where you are um and uh he had these tricks for posi mental attitude and really uh but he was also fiery and he won he won several National Championship so uh it wasn't just touchy feely um that is one and then I've been blessed with just mentors I'm I'm good at finding them um and not ashamed to uh male and female mentors that uh uh that have just helped Propel my career um and

[36:21]  I I'm a sports guy too so I I sort of go towards those those Sports analogies as well uh you know who can be John Wooden as far as a legend so I'm older than you so that one probably resonates more John Wooden man I want to say it was what seven national championships in a row at UCLA or was it 10 how many did he get at the time yeah I don't know if it was in a row but yeah 10 within um it might have been 10 in a row yeah and you know he had Kareem and he had Bill Walton but just his sort of fundamentals of leadership everything from starting day one like how put your socks on so you don't get blisters uh he was he he was the man yeah so there's something that this is why I love the podcast because often when we share our stories it's easy for

[37:09]  other people to find themselves inside of that um I was a lifelong athlete I got hurt I got hurt and I ended up going through a huge identity crisis when I stopped playing baseball after I was in college and one of the things that kind of shook me out of that moment was I had a mentor who had a really serious conversation with me high compassion if you will where he said Keenan you know I know that this is a really tough time for you right now but someday you're going to have to go pro at something other than baseball so what is it going to be and in that moment I kind of looked at my life and was thinking about what I wanted to do and I thought about Business and Entrepreneurship leadership communication I would love to be able to have a season that is as long as a lifetime instead of being a 33y old guy who's like I'm at the end of my days

[37:56]  right how do you kind of think about that element of going pro in something other than football in your example yeah it you know my origin was I went to um I went to Pacific Lutheran University thinking I was going to become a pastor uh and I took my first social work class and I immediately changed my major um and uh the whole profession of of helping people and getting paid for it was ridiculous I just I it it it just happened in an instant it just made sense to me uh what I found out over the over my ten years is you can have a you can have a good career uh and when I would speak to Social Work classes uh I would I would tell them I'm like you're in the you're in this major because you

[38:44]  want to help people um but if you want to be in leadership at Social um or sociology um or the humanities take some business classes because what happens in our fashion is these great great you know it it's sort of like you're you know you you being a good what position did you play by the way I'm just dying to know in baseball I played uh first first base primarily big dude 6'6 240 yeah big Target 6'6 240 so you could hit yeah yeah you middle lineup yep exactly yeah you don't put anyone at first base if they can't hit um so it's sort of like you you know that you know you're around baseball so you know baseball that doesn't mean you're going to be the best general manager so you let's say you never got hurt you went to the pros

[39:31]  and then you go into coaching and then you wanted to be general manager well you're going to need to pickups and skills along the way the same is in true in social work you could be the best therapist and this is what happened is they oh my gosh this therapist is just the best maybe they're a little bit charismatic so let's put them into leadership and then like oh what's a spreadsheet and oh I have to hold people accountable I you know and uh and marketing and all that kind of stuff so um that was my journey and so that's what I went pro in and I had this moment uh if we have a second to tell you how that happened is um I was uh again at the boy all my stories originate from The Boy Ranch and then um I was in the car with my dad on uh we were going from Milwaukee to Chicago and uh he said yeah

[40:22]  you know you're doing well in your career blah blah blah and what do you want to do and I said well I want to lead an angan and he goes are do are you going to go for a masters they said yeah I'm already looking at I'm going to get my uh masters of social work and he sort of paused and then he said have you thought of a master's in business and it was like switching my major it was like duh of course that's what I need if I I need a b a business sense and at the time when I got my first CEO job it was a huge advantage that I had at MBA a huge Advantage um and an mssw so um sort of tick that box it's really interesting how we have some of those aha moments that put us on the right path right a conversation with Dad in the car whoever kind of puts us on that path that's really amazing yeah there's never forget there's a there's some elements about

[41:11]  leadership that I think are really interesting and exactly like you talked about I have so many conversations with different leaders and we talk about this weird Ascension process of somebody being an amazing Central or social worker charismatic let's put him into a leadership position I have a current story right now one of my friends um became a CPA and became a junior partner of his firm accounting firm and we were having a conversation this last week and I was talking about the skill set of leadership and he said Keenan I've been promoted 10 times because I've been really good at executing on my job now they're asking me to manage 11 other people and I don't know what I'm going to do from a skill set perspective because I've never had to be a coach I've never had to invest into other people and I'm kind of freaking out why do you think it's so culturally

[41:58]  normative for people who are good at a task to ascend in an organization but often leaders don't spend the time investing into their leadership skills so they can get the best out of their teammates it's a different skill set you know back to you know you uh becoming a better first baseman better hitter um you're not thinking about those other things maybe you're thinking about being a better teammate you know how do I make my U teammates better um one of the best defensive you know first baseman was John olude there's stats that show that how he like I I don't remember what they were but he was one of the best defensive uh first baseman ever and because he could you know scoop the ball like no one else and so there less errors things like that um I I think I think uh especially in my sector in

[42:49]  social work we get these questions all the time is like um you know hey if I want to get to your level and it's really you know what do I do I was very lucky at The Boys Ranch um where I was able to serve like I I started out on the floor working and then I became a manager and then I got promoted to this and that and then I was the development director I was raising money and I I served almost every role so it really prepared me for more of a generalist you know you know supervisor um I also was very lucky and I just had good and bad coaches as athletes you know that that's just I had some really I can only think of two really bad coaches and it was I learned the most from them like I don't want to do that I don't like the way they make me feel I don't like the way

[43:37]  that they instruct it's fear-based uh and I just knew I didn't want to be that and so there's you know whether it's Athletics same with the Arts getting some of those kind of experiences where you do have coaches or directors um so helpful in your development and your soft skills I want to ask a fun question to kind of you know put the landing gear down here in 2001 the Seattle Mariners went 116 and 46 do you still think about that year like I do I think about the interception of the Super Bowl more um but why didn't we give the ball to Marshon you know what I mean it was right there it was right there and Seattle's not even my favorite team but um but they're my they're my third

[44:26]  favorite team my first favorite is the Vikings and whoever plays the Packers is my second favorite team um there you go but I do I do think about that I do think about that and and um and uh how successful that was but it was feel it it felt like a failure right no one you know we remember it cuz we're local or or I I'm not even sure where you're at but um we remember it cuz it was Seattle and I'm going to the Mayers game with my wife folks tomorrow and they're still they're still mathematically you know possible they can make the playoffs um but yeah they were so great it was such a fun season but in sports you know you get this oh there's only one winner

[45:13]  which is a bit of nonsense it's a there's an interesting concept and I want to kind of Riff on this so um I I'm interested in the mindset between first and third place so let's kind of think about the examples of when somebody wins a championship they celebrate when somebody comes in second place they act like the world has ended but the third place winner often has to beat that fourth place position and they also feel like they're on top of the world I'm really interested in that mindset that comes along with ending on a loss and feeling like everything's a failure even though you finish ahead of other people in the rankings do you ever think about that I do I think about a lot and I've read articles about how the bronze winner is the most happy yeah I mean and you know cuz they got a medal um you

[46:02]  know silver is like the worst cuz you're so close I mean you're so close there's I think it was Jerry Seinfeld did like the difference between a gold medal and a silver medal is this you know it's this I mean it's just like so close and so you felt like you BL yeah I I feel like that's changing a little bit this whole winner take all mentality uh I think it's healthy uh watching the Olympics this year I felt like there was more celebration of just you got there and uh and celebrated that you got metal it didn't seem as as focus on gold silver and bronze as I don't know if that's true or not but at least maybe as I'm aging and and thinking a little bit differently I appreciated it

[46:49]  just a lot more that you know hey these these people these men and women are just in the event right in the arena I agree well David the last thing that we do here is we have a uh a question that comes from our previous guest it's a blind question and you've already hit on this a little bit but their question was what tools do you use to create work life balance slork life Harmony yeah uh it's really accountability and goals um for the first time for the first time um I I I didn't have any real work goals I just focused on on my P my personal goals because I just felt like that was so out of balance I go on a um two to three day uh Retreat sometimes in the

[47:37]  mountain sometimes in a city uh usually in January and I focus on what do I want to accomplish this next year and and accomplish might be the wrong word who do I want to be in the next year uh I go very hard into goal setting uh sometimes way too you know everything from like I want to see 10 concerts this year cuz concert live music just feeds my soul um so really but the other thing that I've done is is I've got some accountability partners that we just go over you know I'll even text them um on a on Wednesday at noon you know how's your week been with your goals um and so finding those accountability accountability is a harsh word but it's helpful it's just okay

[48:25]  they're going to ask me because they care about me you know did I see a concert this last month and so it'll remind me to do those SS that feed my soul I think that's a beautiful place for us to end man thank you once again for joining the show you're a perfect definition of heart and hustle you've exemplified that perfect David once again for everybody tuning in and watching that's a wrap thanks guys