Inside the Future of Enrollment Management: AI, SEO, and the Rebirth of College Applications

[0:17]  We are here on the Heart and Hustle podcast. My brother, I got a quick question. What is your favorite three movies? Got to start off something a little different today.

[0:23]  Three movies. I mean, so you gotta go Lord of the Rings, and and I get to count all three of those movies as one. That's that's one. jeeze. after that, I I I doubt you're gonna let me count the Harry Potters all as one movie. So I'll say the last Harry Potter movie. You could probably

[0:40]  Okay. I almost knew when you said Lord of the Rings that Harry Potter had to be a part of it. Seems like you loved the long movies.

[0:46]  Yeah yeah you had to go with that. You had to go with that. I'm gonna go completely left field just 'cause I watched it recently with my kids. Thirteen Days. it's kind of an a not older movie now, but it's about the Cuban Missile Crisis with Kevin Cost. so I really like political dramas. So yeah, I like that.

[1:01]  Yeah. That's funny that you said that we were just talking about political stuff, huh? Like we won't get too deep into it, but that is funny that you said that. And I'm guessing it's something that people may not know about you is that you do music.

[1:20]  Yeah, yeah. Yes, yeah, no, I've been a musician. played guitar for thirty-five years, plus thirty-five years. been learning piano now for last year and a half. And my side hustle that I'll be doing later on today is that I play guitar in an eighties rock cover band. I've done that for the last eight plus years. play about thirty to thirty-five shows a year. so I have a show tonight, I have another one tomorrow. absolutely love what music has brought to my life.

[1:40]  I love it. Do you tell people that often or is it something they just happen to figure out?

[1:44]  Well, it's kind of a joke at my work that, you know, I do virtual meetings like this for my job and obviously you're seeing me, right? And so you're seeing all the guitars behind me. So the joke at work is I'm not allowed to bring it up. But if the person on the other side of the call brings it up, I'm allowed to smash through that door and share it, right? So I have actually pictures from me playing in my band stayed on my like saved on my screen to share. I mean, I have

[7:18]  Yeah. I love it.

[7:18]  Facebook video I could send to you of me belting out sweet child of mine. so I have no shame at all. because it's fun and like and music is like the only un truly universal language. like everybody loves music in some sort of way that has touched your lives. And so it is a common connection point anytime you're starting a relationship with a new person.

[7:18]  All right, so before you tell us where you're representing today, you said music. Who is your favorite go-to music artist?

[7:18]  Sure. I mean, so I got a guitar because at 13 years old, I saw Slash and from Guns N' Roses. And I was like, I wanna do that. and so you can't see but over to the left. I have a cardboard cutout of Slash standing right there. Four of the guitars behind me are his.

[7:18]  yeah.

[7:18]  Yeah, so I mean, as far as guitarists, that's always gonna be a top one. I love all music though. I also love like Americana, I love acoustic, I love folks like Dan Rodriguez, which is, you know, great contemporary music, you know, 90s stuff like OAR, dispatch, music, again, like it it's magical. i i find meaning and

[7:18]  Mm.

[7:25]  and connection in any musical piece. I mean, I'll tell you, one of my favorite shirts to wear when I'm playing a show is a shirt that says, Real Men Love Taylor Swift. And I love wearing that shirt. I might wear it tonight to my show in honor of you. and like it's quite polarizing. I find out who my friends are real quick.

[7:33]  Do it, do it. You know, I love those shirts, man, that just really speak so much without saying so much, right? Like it's just a conversation starter. That shirt is going to be the conversation starter of the night, I can only imagine. Yep, yep.

[7:41]  Hundred percent. For for good or bad. Actually I should do that because it's like their wedding weekend now. So absolutely I gotta wear that tonight.

[7:48]  Yeah, yeah, yeah. You in with the times right now. You're in with the times, for sure. Art, we talked about music, talked about movies, but your nine to five, the passion, purpose, work that you do, outside of music is what?

[7:56]  Yeah, higher education. So I've been in higher ed my whole life. I I worked on campus for a long time. my for most of my career I was a dean of students. So I came up the student affairs route, was doing student advocacy work, you know, helping students with mental health issues, also student conduct, responding to protests, like all the kind of full gamut of stuff that hits the DNA students' office. I transitioned a little bit about four years ago, and now I work for an ed tech company, an ed tech company called Liaison. we do enrollment management. I specialize in serving graduate enrollment management and returning adult. and has really just kind of given me an additional fun, interesting, engaging lens to still be of service to an industry that I love and still be able to advance the mission of access, which has been something that's been kind of my driving force throughout my life and career.

[8:04]  What do you mean by the access part though? do you, go ahead, elaborate a little bit on it.

[8:12]  Sure. Yeah. I mean, for me, I I'm a first gen kid from the south side of Chicago. and you know, higher education is something that is still not afforded to enough people. And some of it is just because of where you're born and what you have access to. And some of it is the self-efficacy of what we believe about ourselves, what we believe about our story. you know, I can remember growing up, and you know, I would never have thought. That I would go on and be as successful in graduate education as I as I have been. you know, from starting applying to college and being rejected, I ended up doing two master's degrees and a doctorate. And it was all because I had people in my life get in my way in positive ways and invite me into this conversation, invite me into this opportunity. to do this work. You know, I it they demystified the idea that this is somehow special and unique and beyond me. It's a part of me. And so I I I carry with me a sincere and deep need to pay that back and pay that forward.

[8:19]  Mm-hmm. I say this every time, it you just say, it just happens. Everyone's always says it. It's like that, those people is those moments, those resources that really changes somebody's life. So for you just sharing the word, spreading the word that's out there on what the resources that out there, people don't know what they don't know. And obviously, you you didn't know, but someone told you and then the rest is history. Here you are today saying, Hey, I got here because someone helped me. I just want to do the same thing. Right. So Pretty damn cool, man. But in the tech space, I could imagine that there's also lot of innovation that is probably not happening at the college universities level. What are you guys doing when it comes to innovation? Talk about AI, talk about technology, being in the tech edge space, you're probably seeing a lot of cool stuff.

[8:27]  Yeah, I mean it it is it is exciting. It moves at a different pace. I mean, you know, I I get the opportunity to think enterprise-wide as opposed to a singular institution. the few things that come to mind is thinking about how we communicate to students. you know, since I'm doing enrollment management work, it's about how are people even finding out where to go to grad school. And this is a a pretty recent change. I mean if I would have asked people, okay, and a student who wants to go out there and is going to begin their search about where to go to grad school, where are they gonna go? And I think up until recently, everyone would have said, well, you know, they're gonna go to Google, right? They're gonna go to a search engine and kind of start there. That's still happening, obviously. but they're going to Chat GPT. They're going to AI resources. And so as I partner with institutions and as we look at how we are serving, advancing their messaging, there's this entity called search engine optimization, which is, you know, trying to work algorithms like Google to make sure that if somebody is searching for a graduate program, that you come up in their search process. Like how can you score higher with Google in order to come up in their search process? Well, now that work has to include GEO, which is the generative engine optimization, so that when people are

[8:35]  Mm-hmm.

[8:43]  Searching up on Chat GPT that you're coming up. and so that's one entity. another one is looking at, you know, application services. I mean, the the application is the gateway, right? It's your it's your ticket, it's how you get in. and when you think about those processes, there's parts of them that have sadly not evolved from back in the day, from when I did it. you know, and and when I did it, it was literally a different century. so you know, how can we evolve those systems? And so that's one thing that I'm really excited to get to partner with. we we have a a system that that exists now where students can fill out one application and apply to multiple graduate schools at the same time, right? Rather than having to go piece by piece by piece to say, I gotta get you my letters of rec and transcripts, you my letters of rec and transcripts, I gotta fill in all this information eight times.

[8:43]  Yeah.

[9:39]  I can do it once and apply. and so that entity, Gradcast, is super exciting to work with. and then lastly, you touched on AI. I mean, that is the next technology that is both transformative and disruptive. to be able to see how you can harness that for good, make sure that we're mitigating the issues that can come up with it, because no technology is perfect. how can we mitigate those issues and be on the forefront of using it? Because It's not a question of if you're going to be using this, it's when. And like all technology adoption, the early adopters reap the greatest benefit. And and so how can you be at the forward edge of that momentum?

[10:23]  You have colleagues that don't feel the same, right? I spoke to someone yesterday and, you know, it's always crazy when you talk to people about AI and it's like, well, we don't want to, get rid of humans. And it's like, no, it's not going to get rid of humans. It's going to amplify these humans to allow them to do more of the things that they actually love and probably signed up for versus all, especially at higher at all the frequently asked questions, all that, you know, things that could really just be documented and with data and AI, think we're in a different place and people are just not tapping into it.

[10:38]  Yeah, a hundred percent.

[10:53]  You smile. Was it the data? Was it the AI? Which one was it?

[10:58]  All of it. I mean all of it. It's all very worthy debates, you know, and I love the field in general and higher ed in specific because you can have complicated debates with highly intelligent people. Like I mean, that's fun for me. I don't pretend to have all the answers. the few things I will point out is at every major technological advancement there has been a vocal minority that has rung the alarm bells.

[10:59]  Yeah.

[11:27]  And again, I'm old enough to have been through a few of these. and one of them is the internet. I mean, one of them is Wikipedia and to be able to Google and whether or not you're gonna know if a resource is good or whatnot. It's also email. I mean, so many of these things. I mean, AI is gonna be transformative in a way beyond those. And so I don't wanna say it's the same exact conversation, but the critical thought is needed.

[11:27]  you

[11:54]  however, the belief that this is not going to permeate our environment is a is a is is a is is not a worthy inclusion in the debate because it is here. And so it's not about if we use it, it's about how we do so ethically and well. And remembering that, you know, we talk about AI as if it is this, you know, singular entity under which all things are the same. They're not. I mean, there's all different sorts of AI. The type of AI that we work with at liaison, which is called Othought, is one specific targeted part related to AI and machine learning that serves enrollment management. you know, I watched a documentary a year, that's about a year ago or so, it was on Netflix, and it was about military uses of AI and the debate around giving AI drones, independent kill authority in the theater of warfare. Now, that also falls under AI the same way as O thought and Chat GPT, but obviously has slightly larger consequences that concern me, right? Deeply concern me. So we we have to be able to talk specifically and not just say, I'm worried about AI. What are you specifically worried about? Are you worried about you know data privacy? You should be.

[11:54]  Yeah,

[13:19]  You absolutely should be. and there are ways in which to mitigate for that. you know, I'll tell you one of my favorite parts of the debate with AI is bias. And I'm sure, you know, you've encountered this before. and and people talk about the bias that comes with AI. And, you know, the one thing I often like to challenge people on, and I say this kind of you know, controversially to make a point, and what I say is AI is not biased. It does not. We are biased. And AI is reflecting the data that we have put into it, that we have created from our biases. AI is reflecting back to us our bias. AI is not the problem we are. And that's the system that needs to be that that needs to be worked on. And in fact, AI can be remarkable and point out your bias. Point out what you're not seeing. I mean

[13:48]  Mm-hmm. I love it.

[14:18]  Yeah, I mean when I work with colleges and camp colleges and universities and talk about using AI, I always say, you know, our O Thought system is going to tell you the students that are the most likely to enroll and how you can continue to enroll them. But I also tell them, you know, O Thought's also gonna tell you the students that you're least likely to enroll. And I really hope that you dedicate time to asking the question why?

[14:33]  I love it. love how deep you go into it, man, because there when I speak to leaders, I remember talking to this one leader and she was so against it. And I'm pretty much I imagine you got to go through this when someone says, no, AI. And then you really start to kind of break it down on how it could be really beneficial for them and how to use it. They're calling you back saying, hey, I haven't stopped using it since you showed me this, because a lot of people just have even tried it and you're already making a decision.

[14:48]  'Cause that's what used.

[15:04]  off of it, right? It's like, try it, actually learn it. And as you mentioned, there's so many different versions of AI. We think it's just a co-pilot, or we think it's just a chat to be to whatever our company has maybe given us to use, when there's really just a huge amounts of different AI that can help in so many different ways. And I'm glad that you are the one that's kind of spreading the word, someone that's kind of been in the higher ed and says, Hey, I've been here, I know it, you know, so you definitely speak from experience. What are some of the things that some of the, guess, pushbacks that you're hearing in the higher ed space when you're talking about AI and some of this new technology?

[15:24]  Yeah, I I think it is more of what you were saying there too of I don't say I don't use this word pejoratively, but ignorance, just because it's lack of experience. I tell people, you know, we should be learners in higher ed, so lean in. I did an online certificate program on AI through LinkedIn Learning about two years ago. if you've used LinkedIn learning at all, it's super it's phenomenal, it's che it's it's inexpensive.

[15:45]  Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

[16:06]  It's you know asynchronous, you can just do it as you want, but it it really gave me a conceptualization for the complexity to this. And I took some of the you know math-based courses, and trust me, like I am never gonna be doing the math related to anybody's AI. Like that should make you concerned. But still, it gave me an appreciation for the beauty and complexity to it. That this isn't just flipping a switch, this isn't something that just came upon overnight. so I'd ask people what their apprehension is. I mean, I I could tell you, like, I mean, I have people debate about bias. You know, my former Dina students were people are all worried about students cheating. You know, like, they're gonna use AI to write their essays, they're gonna use AIs to do whatever. I saw a really funny AI like meme recently that said, you all better stay healthy because your future doctor is passing med school right now using chat GPT. And that made me laugh.

[17:00]  Yeah, could be true though, right? It's possibly true.

[17:02]  But the one thing I always love to hammer home and and and and I think I have the stature to say this as someone who was a dean of students for 11 years at three schools, assistant dean for six years prior to that, the overwhelming vast majority of students are honest and hardworking. And they always have been. Like we concentrate on a minority of cases that somehow or other do kind of bubble up for other reasons. And

[17:15]  Mm-hmm.

[17:29]  I I don't like it when we kind of pick on students that they're gonna cheat because you know, faculty and staff aren't immune to this either. why couldn't they also use it for nefarious reasons? So there's all sorts of folks that are gonna use tools for bad reasons and and and be bad actors. I have to believe in our systems to have the ability to control for that.

[17:39]  Mm-hmm.

[17:49]  but so I hear people talk about bias, I hear people talk about cheating. But the biggest thing is that if you really kind of drill underneath, and I think you kind of touched on this, it's just lack of experience and fear of the unknown. And the only way you're gonna get comfortable is by playing around with it. I tell people, you know, I have two screens in front of me, I have my other screen here, right? And my other screen has 18 tabs open on Chrome, just like we all do, right? one of those tabs has to be a generator of AI so that. You find ways just to experiment, to use it in your life, just to learn how it operates and how it thinks so that you can become more comfortable.

[18:29]  How many times have you been talking to AI and it gives you an idea that you didn't even know was possible or right? Like those things. It's like, crap, I didn't even think about that. But how cool is that? Right? Like it gets you in a direction you didn't even know was possible. So it's like, yeah, use it. Cause you don't know what comes out of it. Now there is this prompt engineering in you that you have to really start to learn how to prompt it. But kind of go back to what you mentioned. I am in Orlando where we have one of the biggest districts here in central Florida. And we're blocking AI in the schools.

[18:29]  Who?

[18:58]  But then we're going to college and we're probably given AI courses and all these different things. And it's like, well, kids are going home and using AI anyway. They're going to go to college and use AI. The reason, I guess, is because teachers don't know how to use it or teachers are not comfortable. like, well, don't put that on the students' fault, right? Like, learn together. Like, let's learn together type-ish. And I think it is the ignorance sometimes, but I am only 36 years old. So I got to see the AOL days, the early online days, the early iPod days, early social media days, and everything was a learning curve, right? And if you evolved with it, you were just on par with what the world was in. A lot of times people are still behind because of fear, a fear of the unknown, as you mentioned. Someone said this recently on a podcast, but it's like, we live in this comfortable zone and outside of it, there's so much world. You got to get uncomfortable. You got to. I'm loving the energy that you have today talking about AI because there's not a lot of people in higher ed that are excited about speaking about innovation, AI, and what is that really doing in our college and universities.

[20:07]  And it is, and you know, and and the last piece of advice I often give to people, and I did not say this quote. I've heard people say this quote in multiple different ways, so I don't know where it originated from. But in higher ed, everybody kind of sometimes talks about being worried that AI is gonna take their job. And here's the quote AI is not gonna take your job, but someone who knows how to use AI will.

[20:22]  heard it. Yeah. And you're right on.

[20:37]  Right. I mean, so like this like all the people that are coming up in the field now, this is gonna be native to them, right? I mean, just like I had to learn, I mean, I remember getting an email address when I was in college. I can remember, you know, going on to Google for the first time. I'm just you know, a couple of years older than you. and so you know, all of those things like we overcame those all along the way. We will do so here as well. And in less than 10 years.

[20:39]  You

[20:59]  This is going to be adopted everywhere. And it's going to be just whether or not you're the one that's utilizing it or you're the one fighting against it. And when you and if you fight against it long enough, you're going to be on the outside looking at.

[21:13]  Yep. And to be quite frank, let's be honest, AI has been around for a very long time. It's just now this sexy word that is kind of out there and people are now using more and ever and thinking that they become intelligent because they're using AI. But it goes back to how are you using it for sure. In the space of what you guys are doing, how are you guys communicating this to, I guess, the students, to your partners? Is it via social? Is it text message? I mean, we're talking about innovation here. I can imagine you guys are kind of tapping into many different sources.

[21:40]  Lots of different things. I mean, as far as us getting information out, I mean, it is through conference presentations, it is through articles, it is through, you know, social media posts. I do a session that I just term AI 101. I've done it at conferences, I've done it for individual colleges, universities, and we do this for free. Like any school that would be interested in this, able totally willing to do an AI one one just to teach you what it is and what it isn't. Because I mean, to your point, like you said, like we're We're we're acting like we're presenting something new and it's not. And also you're using it all the time because I love presenting AI one-on-one and asking people like, hey, how familiar you are with AI? And and and only a few people raise their hands. And then I'll say, How many of you are using Amazon? How many of you watch the show on Netflix? Like all of these things, like you're using AI. Like, because that is all, you know, utilized, you know, within them. So, you know, it is a lot of those individual educational moments that I enjoy. and so so we do we do a lot of that, you know, so yeah, it's a lot of conferences, a lot of traveling around to campuses, doing individual conversations. And sometimes I just have one-off conversations with people that wanna have a conversation to learn more.

[22:12]  Love it. And what is the website like? Where can people find out more about this?

[22:44]  Sure. Yeah, no liaison dot com. and so that is, you know, our, you know, you know, company website. People can reach out to me on LinkedIn as well. Art Munin, you know, Art's a unique enough name that should be easy to find me. I have articles on there I could share. you know, we have webinars that we have done, case studies, all sorts of information. it is it yeah, it's it's it's a super exciting conversation. and one that I just you know continually enjoy leaning into. And so and then and that that website is liaisoned you.

[23:16]  is our happy happy appreciate you. Is Art your actual name or is that short for Arthur or something?

[23:49]  Yes. Arthur. I'm actually Arthur the Third. I'm named after my grandfather.

[23:54]  Really? man. Listen, let's go back. Arthur being one of the cool shows we used to watch on PBS, man. Come on. Arthur is a legit name here, No, I love it. I love it. Art is short for your music name, huh? No one wants to be, you know, singing up there, Arthur, right? Art sounds much better. I hear you. I hear you. What advice, as we start wrapping up, man, what advice do you give to those that are not using AI? Because we talked about just the fear of something new.

[24:06]  That is that Yeah. It it does, it does.

[24:19]  What do you tell your colleagues that are right now battling? Do I do this? Do I not? But also in fear of retention, of how do we communicate and all these different things? I believe that they all kind of go hand in hand. So what do you tell those people?

[24:34]  Start small. I mean, you don't have to jump in the deep end today. like start small, take an online class to learn more. sit around with younger staff and your students and ask their thoughts. and then challenge yourself about how your experience might be limiting your perspective. And this is one thing I like to challenge leaders on. And again, it's something that I reflect on as you know, being a man of a certain age now with gray hair, is that, you know, I'll. Regularly get introduced, like, art has 25 plus years of experience in higher ed. And you'll hear people with that like 20, 25, 30 plus years. as if that number matters, you know, as if that number somehow means my belief is somehow magical and that someone with less years isn't. The folks with less years are actually closer to the student experience than I am. I mean, I said it jokingly, but it's not a joke. I went to college in the last century.

[25:01]  Mm-hmm.

[25:28]  When I filled out my applications, it was paper and pencil and I didn't have an email address. Like my experience is limited. And there was this quote I read in this book once that always stuck with me that said, experience is the collection of mistakes you made in a cultural context that is no longer relevant to the present day. And so what that really means is that your experience after a while can actually be limiting. And so how can you challenge yourself? And some of that is talking to people closer to the student experience, ask them what they think about AI and what they can teach you about.

[26:01]  How many coffees you drank this morning,

[26:03]  man, this is just how I rolled. I get I I come out

[26:06]  I love it too though, that's why I just want people to know your energy is just, this is you, man.

[26:10]  Yeah, it's just me. I mean, I you know, in about seven hours I'm gonna be standing on a stage playing Sweet Child of Mind to a crowd of people. so you know, this is just what I bring.

[26:16]  I care about you. I love it. All right. We have to do this again, man. Thank you so much for your insight and everything that you bring. I want you to know something before we hop off. And I'll tell it while people are watching. You keep saying it throughout. And it reminded me that you said this the first time we spoke about the century ago. When we first spoke offline on the discovery, you kind of mentioned how Efrain, like I, you guys, you are the next leader, right? Like. I was a century ago. Like I know what happened a century ago, but people like you need deserve to be in these rooms and all that. And because of that moment, I literally remind myself that I am the next leader in these rooms. I am of today. I am of what this generation needs. And I think for so long, used to have that. I mean, I still kind of have it, but the imposter syndrome of going into these rooms sometimes when I am speaking to a 56 year old and I just had a friend recently tell me like, Ephraim, I'm always just, I'm in disbelief of when I go, when I see you do this line of work for so long and you can just. relate to that 50, 60 year old, also relate to that 23, 20 to 30 year old. And it's a thing that you say, man, it's just really being able to adapt, just really able to evolve and find out where's the need and figure out how you can be a part of it. And Art, I just love that you found your spot on where was the need, still in higher edge, still that passion and purpose, man, and still giving back. So kudos to you and still playing music at the end of it, doing the things that you love more than ever. So that is truly chase your passion, chase your purpose, it's not about the paychecks. Art, you are definitely the man. Thanks for the conversation. If you guys are still watching, make sure you guys check out Art on LinkedIn. Make sure you guys go find those music videos and share with us. Make sure you guys like, comment and subscribe. My name is E-Prave. This is Art. We'll catch you the next one. Laters.

[26:23]  Thank you.