Is Delaying Parenthood Actually HURTING Your Career?

[0:00]  in today's episode of the heart and hustle podcast we sit down with Elena Frank the CEO and founder of Jewish fraternity Foundation now in today's episode we're going to learn about what is happening when it comes to fertility the challenges that we Face the importance of community why so many people are waiting so late to have children in life today what that means for the impact of our next generation and so much more let's get into the episode but I spent 5 years trying to have my now 5-year-old and if if I would have known the love that I feel for him even though it wasn't the family I envisioned or like the child that I envisioned creating I thought I would have only biological kids like I wish people could understand the connection you have with a child that you are

[0:48]  raising and that you brought into this world um I wish I could like yell that because there are so many options to Growing your family um and just being flexible enough to like look at that Elana we're facing a big problem in society today it seems like less people are having children at a young age a lot of people are challenged with fertility and that is in the middle of what you guys are doing at the Jewish fertility

[1:35]  Foundation why is this work so important to you it's personal I um I have three kids born from various treatments in two different countries and I'm part of the famous infertility club which sucks so I started this organization out of my own personal suffering and um loneliness and isolation when it comes to kind of the community that you guys have built one of the things that we talk about in the podcast often is isolation and loneliness from like a macro societal level seem to be rising every single year why is community something that's so important as people go through these challenging times together you know I'll tell you I'll give you an example of um on October 7th which was a horrible day for many um we're not a political

[2:25]  organization we're not talking about you know what's going on in the Middle East like we don't do that but we have somehow created this unit this family around a shared common experience which in our case is infertility it's we always say it's a club nobody wants to join and my staff my team was able to pull together it was on Zoom a meaningful program on the anniversary of 107 which was just a few days ago we brought together so many people virtually who are are our people and it didn't make the day feel better you know there's still stuff going on in the world that are is really hard but to be able to be with like-minded people who have that like one shared unique Common

[3:14]  Thread it just makes you feel less alone and less you know stuck in your house less something's wrong with me um and it was really significant and meaningful for so many people in our in our space when it comes to how you guys support people I want to kind of give the audience a little bit of like an education process on what you guys do at the at the foundation what you guys are doing to support people in the community and kind of like the origin story of how we pulled all this together yeah so today we're entering our 10th year and we focus yeah we focus congratulations on three major areas so one when it comes to infertility support money is really really important if you don't know it costs upward of $220,000 to do one round of

[4:04]  IVF um and insurance is not mandated to cover this cost in many of our states nationally so it's a really expensive process that often young individuals young couples are not prepared for and just because you do IVF or a fertility treatment does not guarantee a child so you could be spending thousands and thousands of dollars in order to hopefully have that child and if you want another child you might have to go back and do it again so one of the um support areas that we focus on is the financial piece the second area we say is H honestly equally as important as money it's offering emotional support because even if for some reason you work for a company that does provide some

[4:52]  sort of insurance coverage or you yourself have the means or your family can help out there's still that toll that like you were saying the community piece like we're we're broken our bodies are broken um whether it is the man the woman or various other reasons like it is isolating it makes you feel just like what is wrong with me and even if you know people in your world you know your friends sometimes are having children and you're invited to birthday parties and like even if they're looking out for your your own best intentions or like your own happiness like they don't know what to say if you haven't been through this or even if you have been through this

[5:39]  like people say just horrible things when they think that they're helping and like it's lonely so it's nice to be around people who are going through something so we offer emotional support we offer support groups we offer a peer-to pure mentorship program we um offer um lots of you know we're in this day and age like Instagram Live support groups um and then the last piece of our prong is education so like when I was going through my journey almost now 15 years ago I was doing such sketchy things in the basement of a doctor's house because I wanted a baby and I wanted it now but the internet wasn't what it is today and even the internet that it is today is are we providing the right information

[6:30]  we want to make sure that you know the medical community is engaging with our community um and so we do lots of local community programs as well as um very much working with the community leadership to train them we work very closely with the doctors to work with them in summary that was that was way too long but moral of the story is that our organization offers money emotional support and education equally important all three problems absolutely I want to talk about the uh the education element you know one of the things that is pretty I would say famous from a user experience is whenever we feel like we don't have answers to our own body and our own health we naturally go to things like the internet and go down the WebMD

[7:18]  dark hole now I think that it's really important to address why education from a trusted resource is so important because when you're in times of insecurity and you know you don't have a sound mind about what the the future is going to look like it's very easy to start hopping on Reddit forums and everything else that could kind of diminish our our positive outlook for the future of what we're trying to build right absolutely so we partner with organizations like the American Society of Reproductive Medicine uh resolve organizations that are offering not only like the physical uh reproductive Health Best Practices but also emotional like the mental health best practices for working with individuals going through an infertility journey and it's really important number one to Advocate

[8:07]  advocate for yourself and if you are the type of person that isn't going into a doctor's office and having Blind Faith which is okay and you want to you know go on the worldwide web and go down a deep dark hole there are resources that we would guide our audience um to check out you know like they have the stamp of approval by Jewish fertility Foundation also in terms of advocating we want our clients we call them clients to feel prepared for these conversations if something feels icky or if you don't um you know you don't like what your doctor said it's okay you're also allowed to get a second opinion just because this is out of your comfort zone or your area of expertise we do want to empower you with the understanding that like you can ask questions and you also

[8:57]  have the ability to really think about who you want as your doctor because they're going to be it's not just like an In-N-Out process right like you're going to be with this person for a significant time period and also it's not I don't want to say it's not it's not true science but the truth is there there's always this like there's the medicine there's the doctors there's the laboratory and there there's this other Factor so might say like the god Factor but just because you are doing a protocol that your Doctor is recommending it does not mean that it's going to necessarily equal a baby and um coming in for important but like with the right information let's talk about kind of the macro problems that we're dealing with

[9:44]  in society here today you know me being a millennial born in 1990 um more and more of my friends are having children later and later in life now what do you think's happening from a societal perspective are there perspectives from a generation is there societal pressure coming from financing what's happening here what do you think well as a whole like our parents are telling us to go to college go to graduate school then think about getting married and settling down and then you know start your family but make sure you have enough money to start your family and I think over time that pressure has come from the generations before um unfortunately biology doesn't wait and so even if companies are you know trying to promote egg freezing

[10:33]  which I happen to think is a great option again it doesn't mean that that is going to equal a baby in the future so I don't have a solution I think with the um the amazing medical innovations that are happening it's giving so many more people options but like wouldn't it be great if we could get all those things and like focus on our careers and focus on what makes us happy while also ensuring that we could have the family that we envisioned I mean like my third son was born when I was 40 I worked really really hard for him and ultimately we used an embryo donation to have him like that is something crazy Innovative different people don't even

[11:21]  know that that's an option um but many times you know single parents by choice both men and women will come to me at like 43 and be like I waited too long help me I provide that option I try to help match them but like I wish they would have come to me at 39 or 38 when they were like gosh I haven't met that person of my dreams I really want a kid um it just makes the process a little bit easier but tell our parents to stop pressuring us to get educated just kidding I mean that's that's that's that's a real thing though you know what I mean like the expectation as we've gone through the generations have completely changed I mean I think about just like the the perceived I'll put it that way economic pressure that is on the younger generations to be able to have the career that you want to be able to buy a house to be able to have a car

[12:09]  to be able to have six months of savings and then we're talking about the experience of having children on top of that and I think the younger generation coming from the place of how am I supposed to figure all of this out and it's really challenging for people to navigate that uncertain future I don't have the answer I'm trying to raise three boys to be like good humans and we focus so much an education right like I don't want them necessarily having a kid when they're raped to have a child I have boys it's a little bit different you know you guys have a little bit more longevity than our eggs but um yeah I mean if I had a girl like would I want them to procreate at 20 years old no but also I know I know based on like biology that mid-20 Mark that is like the best time to be able to biologically have a kid yeah I

[12:59]  mean there's just there's a lot of pressure um I want to I want to take this in a little bit of an interesting perspective with all of the things that we see on like social media and everything else like that do you think that these macro systems of Engagement and social platforms are putting pressure on people to kind of start families later but is there going to be a bigger effect because we have 10,000 maybe the number is as high as 12,000 people every day turning 65 in our country so we have a silver tsunami that's occurring but we have less people at a younger age who are having children and I don't know how we're going to be able to meet the needs of our future Generations if we also have the social pressure of social media Instagram Tik Tok and everything like that that says go build your career first it seems like we're kind of heading towards a glass

[13:46]  Cliff if you know what I mean I don't know is that like our next nonprofit that we're GNA create together like we could we definitely could I mean I think like religion plays a part in that you know I'm from the Jewish faith in my community there is pressure to have children especially in the more observant population like the expectation is is you get married young and start your family like that's the goal and in some of in some circles you're talking about six kids eight kids like maybe we got to turn back to not just Judaism but like these faith-based religions and really I don't know like maybe that that's kind of The Next Media pitch um I mean I think there's a lot of validity in that you know I think we've gotten to the place and I don't want to take this into like you know two of a polarizing

[14:34]  position on the podcast but you know it seems like we have as a macro Society gotten away from a lot of the faith-based Traditions you know what I mean and it seems like it's having a huge impact on our society and I do worry that every someday people are going to wake up at the age of 43 45 like we talked about and said wait did I miss my opportunity to bring children into this world which is kind of scary to think about I think it's like the individual versus the community it's very listen I want my kids to have everything I want them to be happy humans and like productive and educated but like you're right at the expense of the whole the community right you want to a community is not only about themselves it's about everybody else around them

[15:23]  um yeah it's interesting it's a it's an interesting time I'm looking for some statistics right now where I can kind of see so it says in 2023 the number of births in the US decreased by 2% um and by 3% in 2022 now it's really interesting just to kind of think about from 2007 to 20323 the number of births has decreased by 177% and the general uh fertility rates has decreased by 21% since its recent high in 2007 so we've got some macro statistics that are also kind of impacting us as well where do you think that stuff's coming from that's a good question I have no idea honestly I mean do you ever do you ever pay attention to you know like Diet all the other macro things that people are talking about a lot I hear a lot about these days like you know microplastics and our diet and

[16:11]  the things that we're exposed to what's your two cents on that h i mean I'm not sure listen like we we're so hyperfocused on infertility so we say that like 25% of infertility comes from the female 25% of it male 25% completely unexplained and then 25 is like the man and woman together cause infertility I would think about like that 25% like doctors don't know why that's happening um I don't know statistically if those percentages have shifted over the years but like if you look about health I am not a doctor I'd be curious like why are you know why are our

[16:59]  daughters getting their periods so early maybe because of the hormones and their milk and you know all the things that we hear but like what is that 25% that is causing us not to be able to have a baby I don't know what it is but like what environmental factors and like are those rates the same in the US every or in the world n internationally I'm not sure that's a good question um I don't know yeah this is this is actually really interesting uh to kind of think about and I don't have the statistics in front of me so I don't want to kind of like you know derail us here um I want if you're okay with it I'd like to you know create an opportunity for the audience to connect with us and we can talk about kind of your personal Journey if that's okay with you so you had your third son at the age of 40 so recognizing that you

[17:49]  often might be considered as somebody who waited some time to start having their children did you ever receive any type of pressure from your community from the family from the faith about about you know trying to get on board with having children so my journey actually started when I was 28 and it took those many years to be able to grow my family so the first like year and a half I had just I got married thought I was going to have a million babies and my husband and I we made Aliah we moved to Israel from America and like I wasn't on birth control for already a year um and like we were trying really hard and I'm used to like being able to get what I want when I try hard and um it was we were not getting pregnant and I'm like

[18:38]  that type A personality what is going on what's wrong I immediately went to the doctor I was already um trying to understand a country that like is a social offer socialized medicine so it's a different system than America which was which was new and different and they quickly said how long have you been married not how long have you been trying to have a baby in America if you've been trying to have a baby for over a year at that age under 30 that's considered infertility in Israel they're try they're trying to understand like it's a different um application like if you've been married over a year that's infertility so they put me on medicine Clomid and that was going to stimulate ovulation blah blah blah I was going to get pregnant month after month nothing

[19:25]  was happening I confided in my aunt in Israel and she I was getting pressure not from the religious component she's not religious but like Israeli Society is very direct they're like she's like what is going on why are you not having kids you know do you know how to have sex do you need to take a vacation all the things that you're not supposed to say to somebody who for whatever reason is not having a child and like that was the first time anybody put pressure on me because nobody else was asking because in my community it is like you get married especially in your later 20s and you have babies like that's just the expectation and I was like oh my God maybe we something really is wrong she worked in the healthare system gave me the name of a doctor and that he was like a legit doctor we went to his house for private um sessions in the evening

[20:15]  for his private Clinic paying him money in a country that is supposed to offer free health care but he was a private doctor and he was doing iuis or like the turkey baster method um in his basement like my husband was going to the bathroom doing his business coming out with his sperm the doctor looked under a microscope and he would put it in me never once checked me and we were doing this for months and it was weird but like I didn't have any you know online Link to look at for education I didn't know how to talk about this how awkward is this I didn't want to bring my parents into this because they don't need to know what's going on and it was really isolating and lonely and nothing was working after about a year of doing sketch things can we can we pause really quick I want I want to know like just

[21:02]  because this is really helpful for the audience what were some of the conversations that you were having with your husband at that point in time so we get a little bit of pressure hard it was so hard conversations were fighting because I was getting so frustrated he was getting frustrated he didn't know I was so emotional every month that I would get my period I was working at like a youth Village an immigrant youth Village and like with a lot of religious people I was also gaining weight because they were pumping some hormones in me to try to make it work and people were like touching my stomach am I pregnant I'm like no so I was coming home with that not getting like the physical like angst of not getting pregnant he was seeing me frustrated like babies in our world were like surrounding us and I didn't want to do anything or go anywhere and he didn't

[21:49]  know what to do with me like that was his biggest thing is like he wasn't going through all of this but he was watching me we were in marital counseling like it sucked like it was not fun um which is which is an element like which is also embarrassing I didn't want to talk to my parents about like my my I'm in my early stages of my marriage I'm like it's really hard um anyway ultimately we found a second opinion or a third opinion and my tubes are bled I actually am one of the 25% that has a diagnosis it's my like my tubes are blocked no sperm is getting in so if in fact I had gotten pregnant by sketchy doctor I could have had an ectopic pregnancy which means that like it wouldn't no baby would be viable and it

[22:37]  could really affect my health ultimately I was able to do IVF very quickly and it was free so the financial burden was off it was still stressful I wasn't like talking about it with anybody I didn't know the words and language until I then had children and like realized oh my God I'm not the only one in the world going through this I I can't thank you enough for sharing your story um the reason why I asked that question and I'm so appreciative for you being vulnerable enough to talk about your experience is because it seems like when we come across hardship and challenges like this in our personal lives it's very easy to keep to ourselves and I think there's so much value in you sharing your story because I know other people are going exactly through this at the same time and

[23:24]  they're feeling like I don't have somebody to reach out to so what would be a and maybe you can give us a little bit of a personal anecdote if you could go back in time right and give that younger version of Elana the advice that she needed for not only the challenges that she was going through but also the relationship challenges that she was going through at that time what would you say to her just so we can give some advice to the audience okay so I have two things one is um the outcome is not going to change of a treatment if you tell somebody so I was always like very Very Superstitious or like playing games with myself if I tell somebody that I'm doing this treatment then it's going to work or then it's not going to work or like how am I going to feel if it doesn't work or and I would like be really reserved what

[24:15]  I learned about myself is that even when there were times that treatment wasn't working or there were losses I wanted that support and like I wanted people my people around me in a certain way I didn't want the look from my mom of like pity and I didn't know how to say what I needed but like understanding that was really important so sharing things with others if that's what you need as a person is not going to change the outcome of that process and then the second thing I would say is I spent five years we were trying to I was like going back when we moved back to America I was going back and forth to Israel trying to use up all my Ros cuz I knew that I wasn't done growing my family and so

[25:02]  many people were trying to have me focus on the kids that I already had and love the kids I already have which is just like a dumb thing to say um I just knew I wasn't done and like that didn't seem fair so wasn't working going back and forth to Israel to get pregnant we tried to adopt for several years which was just we failed at that and then like I said we ultimately received a donate ated embryo everything happens for a reason but I spent 5 years trying to have my now 5-year-old and if I would have known the love that I feel for him even though it wasn't the family I envisioned or like the child that I envisioned creating I thought I would have only biological kids like I wish people could understand the connection

[25:52]  you have with a child that you are raising and that you brought into this world um I wish I could like yell that because there are so many options to Growing your family um and just being flexible enough to like look at that it doesn't have to take you five years like you will love this kid no matter how you brought them into the world it's it's an amazing story and I'm I'm so glad that we're able to be vulnerable enough to share your experiences here because you're right I think um often we ourselves and Society puts a narrative in our head about how things are supposed to be but going through the Journey it never seems like that's how things work out right but I think

[26:39]  there's an amount of confidence an amount of trusting in the future to say hey I'm still going to get this done and the way in which it happens I think we can be appreciative for at the end of the day and so I love the fact that you touched on there are so many ways to be able to grow your family because I know a lot of people today are feeling that pressure about like if it doesn't go go my way then I don't want it but the other side of that is being able to raise a family through alternative means which is just as valuable and you're a Living testament to that thank you thank you so let's talk a little bit about kind of the education element I want to talk about this now when we talked about a little earlier in the episode we talked about a trusted resource for trusted education and information how are you guys using your guys's platform the network the ability to engage with people who are looking for this

[27:27]  information through the use of Technology have you guys built out a platform what are you guys doing to be able to increase access to this good information I mean a few things um one for sure we use social media as a way to offer support and we love bringing in experts in the space to share not only best practices but like I said I I have a podcast as well and I love bringing in um experts in fem Tech so like there's so much innovation in the reproductive space that is happening which I mean from like how sperm can be collected to how embryos are created to you know technology that you can do at home just crazy amounts internationally of what's being done educating and

[28:16]  sharing those um practices with our audience has been great um one of the things that I love to work on is embryo donation matching um and there's some creative technology that we use around that and now we're actually focusing a little bit more on um everything going on in the fertility space around post RVA and I don't know if you were following what was going on in Alabama in February have an office in Alabama and our fertility clinics were closed and we had to really quickly um we're not an advoc advocacy organization but we had to help our clients there figure out what the heck they're going to do if they're mid cycle

[29:04]  if they're mid um trying to do a fertility procedure we brought them to Atlanta but it was very all very reactive we were quickly able to bring together attorneys and doctors um to try to understand what was going on what was legal what wasn't so we bring people together in a space to share information very quickly we want to be more proactive moving forward because this is not over and we want to make sure our audience understands access points for Reproductive uh procedures you know so we're creating right now a website of like the safe States for Reproductive access um specifically relating to fertility and infertility and then also

[29:53]  again we're not an advocacy organization but we partner with lots of uh organizations doing advocacy what are like reporters asking from us they're asking for testimonials real people who have built their family in a variety of ways and we're using social media regular media um and different technological tools at our disposal to be able to get that information and education out there I want to talk about this idea of adaptability with how fluid it seems like all the laws are from state to state and at a federal level you guys are having to be incredibly adaptive based on the newest release of information and legislation how is that kind of putting you in a position to think about what the future looks like for the state of the United States and

[30:42]  being able to access services like this well it's scary I mean you know real life like there are real people who um who unfortunately have to be able to access the Qui things quickly so again like we don't really try to focus on the politics we are more reactive but like even getting that information out is not even getting the information to ourselves is not not easy so we're very much following what our reproductive attorneys are telling us we have a network of doctors of attorneys they're feeding us with the information a lot of it in partnership with resolve with American Society of Reproductive Medicine and like our goal is to really really be able to distribute that

[31:29]  information disseminate that information to our clients and say like how can we quick as quickly as possible make sure that you have the care that you need unfortunately and we're not talking about abortion but unfortunately um abortion is a part of our story and like if you're going through this treatment like one of my one of our clients actually also in Alabama she had six IVF transfers for a very wanted baby learned her baby was not viable with life and needed an abortion and like this was right after the overturn of rvy Wade like she was in our infertility Network we were supporting her we had to very quickly help her navigate this process and like

[32:18]  that is just not what I want to be doing I want to be helping people make sure that they can have the children children that they want not and we already shared they're already dealing with so much mental anguish and stress Partnerships you know relationships that are hard to have this added bonus of like all of this is just ridiculous I don't know if that answered your question but that's like no it it does it does because you know there are elements of and I'm just going to say this very transparently I think uh the media does a really good job at you know using language that demonizes the choice of you know being able to protect the mother through things like abortions I know I have a personal friend um there was a term that you used earlier when you talked about the fact that your tubes were blocked we talked about a certain type of what was

[33:05]  that defin what was that word that you used you said that we had a we had if you were to get pregnant but an example of topic pregnancy an ectopic pregnancy so this is what is the definition of that just so I'm not speaking like when you're growing a fetus inside your fallopian tube okay perfect so not gonna grow yeah right it's not it's not a viable child right and this is exactly what happened to one of my close friends and she had to go into the hospital right to have an abortion to be able to save her life and I think that we have to be able to look at these things at a higher view to be able to say hey where is the appropriate access point in the community for us to be able to protect life in general and I think that sometimes the media does a really good job at saying that this is either right or wrong without the full context of

[33:53]  what's Happening yeah well we're trying to kind of shine a light on the real stories of real people who are you know going through some of these procedures and processes yeah I want to talk a little bit about what the future of the organization the foundation looks like 10 years of advocating and doing amazing work what does the next five years look like for you guys Elana yeah so I mean we've given out more than like $2.4 million in Grants we have given out out I think like over 325 I was just looking 325 actually 26 um grants in our in our time in the past really nine years we've helped

[34:41]  hundreds and hundreds of people we have partner fertility clinics we have 10 locations nationally where we're really deep into the community um and who we're helping we have like built out a direct service organization we've figured out how to scale we've got that we have an amazing team on the grounds doing this this work where I see us in the next five years is really making sure organizationally that we're efficient and that we're operating at the best level that we can and we have to kind of pivot we've been a direct service organization we have to fundraise in order to help our organization grow to help more people nationally to be able to give out a lot more fertility grant

[35:31]  money to more people even outside of our territories we have to really kick ass in fundraising and so right now we're making some organizational pivots so that we kick off our 10th year with a bang um so that's where I hope we see us I want to raise $18 million over the next five years to be able to do um continue doing what we're doing well I think that this is an awesome opportunity for us to talk a little bit about how can people give back to the organization where can they find more information about what you guys do and I want you to also talk about you know the the community aspect I talk to you about you know somebody in my personal life who's going through this and you gave some amazing resources let's talk a little bit about that yeah so we well we

[36:19]  work number one we work in the community so we've created I'm in Atlanta we started our first community-based I guess you would say chapter um where we are able to offer financial assistance education and emotional support our education and emotional support is to anybody regardless of religious background we very much love on and rely on our volunteers our volunteers locally can offer um become a fertility buddy so they might have gone through some sort of experience whether it's adoption surrogacy straight up IUI or IVF maybe they had losses in their pregnancies we want to match somebody up with somebody who is currently experiencing infertility it's a great program it's a really easy way to be

[37:07]  able to give back additionally um we uh have development committees in each of our locations because again everything we do today uh has to have a fundraising angle to be able to support the work um and then nationally we actually just started offering the fertility buddies program which is I think what I recommended to you so anybody in America is able to join that program if they need some sort of emotional help while they're going through their um their treatment process or a loss or whatever is going on but there are a lot of ways to get involved um following us on Instagram is a great way to learn more Facebook also great maybe not as sexy

[37:55]  for some of the younger people um and then just our website Jewish fertility foundation.org is is a great way to learn more if we're in a community you know near you but also if you remember we are really expanding out to be able to help more people nationally Elana what should we be talking about that maybe we didn't talk about here today do we miss any subjects of conversation or things egg freezing we talked about embryo donation those are my favorite things um yeah no I think I think we did we did good okay well I just want to say thank you so much for coming on the heart and hustle podcast you are truly the definition of somebody who represents heart and hustle the tradition that we have here at the end of our episodes is

[38:42]  we have our previous guest ask you a blind question and their question was as the CEO of your organization what are the three habits that you've built to be able to recharge and rest as a leader of your organization I um well these are like my personal habits um number one I really like taking bubble baths with a glass of wine after a long day my kids know that like just give me 10 minutes in the bath and it like I don't think a CEO can ever really turn off but it does decompress me um to be able to be more present during those times that and I am not perfect at this but during the time we I'm trying to like prepare dinners for

[39:28]  my kids and like homework and all of that um was the word what was the word three things to recharge yep so I actually get a lot of energy from working with like my executive team which is who are all females like I love empowering them to kick ass whether it's they need like a professional coach or they need or I recognize that they need a massage like what whatever it is that gives me energy and builds me up when I can do that to them with them um and three recharging is I mean exercise like I want to be doing it more but just even taking a walk sometimes I have my best ideas like if I'm strugg listen a job of a CEO is

[40:18]  hard lots of jobs are hard but like having to deal with um external with a board with your staff taking a long walk for me I figure things out a lot and so I really think that's not for everybody but it really helps ground me and like also helps my heart rate get up a little bit well I think that's an amazing place for us to put a wrap on today's episode Elana Frank once again thank you so much for joining us really appreciate it you rock thank you so much