Leading with Compassion In Education | Marcos Rodriguez | HR HEROES S1 E6

[0:00]  if they can become a millionaire on Tik Tok they at least want to feel like the work that they're doing is Meaningful to the world in general but to them as well there's a new Workforce of younger generation and people who are coming into the space and saying money's maybe not everything but helping me develop as an overall person and proving that you're going to invest in me is a huge step a lot of people I believe they don't see that that behind closed doors we are advocating we are asking having those tough conversations with our leaders as well right a lot of people are are physically emotionally and mentally ready to retire and financially they're just not there all right guys welcome back to

[0:54]  another episode of our brand new HR hero series I've got Marcos Rodriguez with me today and I'm really excited to dive into today's conversation because Marcos when we connected originally we talked about some of the challenges in the HR space and some of the stuff that's happening out in the world on a daily basis some of the challenges that both employers and employees are having in navigating this new landscape if you will so before we start diving into today's conversation why don't you give everybody a little bit of an intro into you your job responsibility and kind of where you're at in the world these days yeah for sure uh so first thanks for having me on Kenan uh it's been great to connect with you so far I'm excited about our conversation today uh and I've been in the HR space for almost a decade um solely in the education space and so uh you know there have been definitely a

[1:45]  lot of times where you know just reflecting on my work on you know sometimes uh the leadership position that we sometimes as HR professionals take on how we can do things better how we're impacting people's lives lives uh and so that's really where I focus a lot of my work is uh definitely company values people focused approach and so that really is something that I'm passionate about uh so that's why I'm really excited to talk today uh and I am in right now I'm in in laish area um been here my whole life uh definitely interested in in exploring other parts of the world but you know we're we're in La for right now I mean hey man Southern California is a

[2:32]  beautiful place to be I know everybody else is dealing with snow right now so you and I being in the southwest of the United States are definitely you know benefiting from all that right now so I don't eny the the the the weather pains for sure that's exactly right um so as we kind of get into today's conversation the first topic that I really want to talk about is kind of the transition that we've seen from in-person to hybrid work right and this new landscape that all these different organizations are trying to navigate especially as we've come from the last couple years so as the landscape has changed from inperson to fully remote back into the hybrid work style right employers are having a really tough time getting their employees to commit to this new 100% inperson lifestyle and some statistics that are really interesting is in 2023 51% of businesses offered um

[3:21]  flexible working Styles and by the end of 2023 64% of those organizations then offered flexible working which is a huge Improvement but there's some dichotomy in there because those organizations were then surveyed at the beginning of 2024 and they found that 38% of those businesses that were representing that 51 and 64% growth want their employees to come back into the office fulltime so my question is for you from your perspective why do you think there's a significant of employees who prefer this flexible working arrangement and how does that expectation for them to come back into the office full time kind of create friction between leadership and the culture of their organization yeah uh I think it comes down to work life balance

[4:11]  uh before the pandemic and I'm going to refer to the pandemic a lot because I think it it was definitely a before and after right but before the pandemic a lot of companies were already exploring remote options a lot of companies were already kind of exploring what that meant what that looked like um but for just a about everybody during the pandemic everything was remote the world had to keep moving but everything was remote and so people got a glimpse of the possibilities that exist when you have a remote work lifestyle um it's also about productivity I think a lot of people feel like we lose work time right in the commute in the chitchat with our colleagues if you're not doing something that's truly meaningful in person it kind of feels like a waste a day uh and

[5:00]  so unless employees are willing to listen and have an open mind I think that this is going to continue to drive a wedge between employers and and staff members um I think a lot of times employees feel like leaders are out of touch you know I think there's a a huge understanding or a reshape in how leadership kind of approaches the new expectations of the workforce and so my next question for you is what type of qualities should leaders exhibit in managing the expectation of a flexible Workforce and why is that relationship and communication between their employees and the employer so important for kind of establishing a better trust equation if you will because I feel like a lot of organizations today have kind of almost pulled the rug out from

[5:47]  everybody and that really has a huge ability to diminish trust in the organization yeah for sure uh you know I've talked to a lot of people I've been in I've experienced this myself where when you're looking for your next work uh home uh a lot of employers were saying we don't plan on going in the like having a an office structure every day it might be remote but we're looking at it might be hybrid but we're looking at you know fully fully remote eventually and like you said earlier that completely shifted for sometimes reasons that aren't exactly transparent or reasonable to employees right and so I think it starts

[6:36]  with transparency I know that a lot of uh organizations a lot of companies they site um productivity and honesty and ensuring that you know there's um equality and you know how much effort employees are putting into their day-to-day and I think those are real concerns um however if there's an issue address it ask questions be direct about it but don't create problems that aren't there uh so I think transparency definitely is a key component in that if if you know your Workforce if your staff uh are presenting certain issues from being remote or having a hybrid uh schedule then address those things that you're seeing don't try to preemptively um punish or you

[7:25]  know before you even Explore those options I think leaders have to also be creative as I was sharing before if you're just having people come into the office just because uh that feels like a waste for a lot of people and if there's inperson obligations or meetings that you're expecting them to make I think that they need to be meaningful I need I I feel like they need to be times where you build connections with your colleagues where you dive really deep into deep into the work that you're doing um sometimes operating in this area right like in the planning in the in the looking ahead uh not really into the daytoday that I could have done at home anyway uh sometimes it can feel like a chore and I think if leaders can

[8:14]  become creative and find ways to keep folks engaged I think that's going to you know make those instances of in-person work um smoother and I think that transcends all types of organizations both in sophistication and size I was having a conversation before we hopped on here today with um another HR leader and she does contract work for Disney which I thought was incredible but one thing that she said was they want us to come into the office every single Wednesday for a 1:00 meeting and guess what this one o00 meeting today is on zoom and so now I from her perspective she's speaking she says I have to travel in LA traffic for an hour and a half to get there an hour and a half to get back and it's not meaningful and so that meaningful work I think is just so important and I kind of reestablishing what meaningful work

[9:01]  means when we come together is also important because if you're just going to come together and have that Hands-On meeting and everybody leaves again like what's the point of that yeah absolutely so my next question for you is one of the things that I kicked over to you as kind of our show notes was the terminology of flexer tirement and I thought that was really interesting because especially in the education space right we see that there's not only an influx of new people who are coming into the space but also your legacy employees also have to find themselves working other jobs after they retire and that's become a huge part of our culture today and so give us a little bit of your perspective on Flex tirement is what I was trying to say before and kind of your perspective and how that can play in your space of

[9:48]  Education yeah so you know just a little side note on there I I think you know the workforce has definitely increased in terms of size right but in opportunities and in desirable positions it has not and so in the education space specifically there's a huge shortage of teachers there's there's a huge shortage of Educators who are interested in remaining in the classroom interacting with kids on the day-to-day interacting with parents uh and so it's really detrimental to now see a bunch of you know Legacy Educators retiring and it's causing real concern and it's it's causing it's driving costs uh in a huge way up for employers uh in school districts because now we have to find uh credentialed employees from out of state

[10:37]  and do you know um relocation bonuses or uh you know sign on for an agency where we have to hire subs and and do all of that stuff so I think that the flex retirements is is a step in the right direction I think it addresses a couple of things right it creates those learning opportunities for younger or newer staff members that they can where they can learn from those seasoned employees I think that there's a lot of sound um practices that we can learn from from the Baby Boomers from you know older gen xers definitely um and we don't want to lose that uh we don't want to lose those opportunities uh because that also creates in my opinion um satisfaction on the on the younger

[11:24]  employees and because then they see well this is where I could be 10 15 20 years from now it look it feels like this organization is investing in my growth and in my learning and even if I don't stay here that long I can take these learnings and go elsewhere right so it's addressing those pieces but you you said it earlier just just now it also addresses you know the Social Security and cost of living crisis a lot of people are ready Are physically emotionally and mentally ready to retire and financially they're just not there um a lot of the times you know we we do a poor job of educating our employees or even ourselves on what uh a healthy retirement fund needs to look like when it needs to start and I think a lot of folks didn't have that education didn't

[12:12]  have the ability to take care of a lot of those things and a lot of people I think are now looking and saying okay I'm ready to retire and how am I going to live for the next 20 30 years I mean one of the scariest things I think about Marcos is somebody who's dedicated their entire life to their ability to create a a lifestyle for themselves that's based on their employment and then all of the sudden right you retire and you have no income that is sufficient to what you were making before and it forces them back into the workforce those are some of the saddest stories when you hear like yeah my dad retired at 70 years old but now has to work at Home Depot on the side to be able to pay the bills and I feel like this Flex tirement gives the ability for us to not only create security from a financial perspective for people who are on their way out of an organization but more importantly it

[13:00]  creates those bridges towards mentorship that you were talking about as well which could be incredibly invaluable but also creates a an ideal for what the future looks like right I think everybody wants to be seen everybody wants to be heard but more importantly people want to be taken care of later in life by their employer which I think is just something that we need to become more comfortable with but Flex retirement seems like a good bridge to get there yeah I agree I think it also needs to there needs to be something that keep the broader population of the work of course engaged and and feeling valued right uh I think it needs to go beyond pay uh and maybe just really also focus on employee Wellness um so I think we can have a whole separate conversation about all that yeah well let's kind of get into um it from a financial Wellness perspective one of

[13:48]  the things that really caught my eye when we were talking about how we wanted to architect this episode was compensation and how it doesn't seem to be aligning with what's happening out in the marketplace so what I want to do is I want to kind of create a level set expectation for everybody with some stats from 2023 about how much profit was made across all sectors and how compensation is following those things so we're going to break down overall I would say Global profit into three different categories the first is global Giants so we've got Fortune 500 five Fortune 500 companies amassed a colossal 41 trillion in Revenue in 2023 with 2.9 trillion in profit now let's take that as level deeper sector powerhouses technology finance and energy claimed 63% of 20 or 2.9 trillion in profit and

[14:37]  US sectors technology was the leading sector generating 306 billion in profit but it doesn't seem like the employee compensation is following those record numbers of billions and trillions of dollars of profit so let's talk about that a little bit according to Bamboo HR study two and five so so about 40% of salaried employees did not receive a raise last year compared to 33% of people who did in 2022 what's more interesting is that the raises that did happen in 2023 were 25% smaller on an average of 6.2% increase compared to 4.6 in 2023 which is pretty wild so this means profit numbers are up but compensation and raises are down why do you think that's kind of like a macro

[15:25]  Trend that we're seeing out in the world I'm going to get into my own personal opinion here that is a little bit um controversial I'll say but I think it it it comes back to a little bit of that corporate greediness um you know there's the workforce is so valuable and the workforce is creating millionaires right people people have ideas people establish businesses people create working opportunities for the workforce but without the workforce those ideas that company means nothing and so there's I want to be careful with how I'm saying you know I'm presenting my ideas but there's a very real aspect of

[16:15]  companies continue to in some some companies obviously not all but continue to exploit that Dynamic uh and I think you know I I don't work in any of those Industries so maybe I'm not in the right industry but I will say um trends like that create a very difficult situation for companies and nonprofit organizations or in the nonprofit sector uh or areas that aren't booming like that right because employees see those those profits that growth and they see other workers advocating for themselves and obviously yeah of course they want to advocate for themselves in the same way but the realities are not the same and so I do think that there needs to be more transparency more of an effort for

[17:05]  these Giants to to level the playing field a little bit and and I think compensation for for the workforce needs to reflect that those those margins I feel like a huge part of this and this is me getting into my personal perspective is I think the lines between what's happening in our own world and what's happening in other people's World continues to be Blend or blurred if you will and so what I think about when I see those huge numbers coming from profit and technology and these other sectors I feel like there's a natural sense of comparison that happens in life where it's like okay if all these companies are making money is my organization making money like that and they're just not passing it down the tree like that that sense of trust is a huge element and some statistics that I pulled as well it says nearly 29% of employees don't expect in 2024 to get a

[17:56]  promotion so that's a huge number so that's almost a third of our Workforce expects not to have any professional growth in their organization but more importantly 73% of employees said that they would consider leaving their current role for a higher paycheck and 48 have thought about doing so in the next six months or in the last six months which is an incredible increase from what we've seen over the last couple years and so do you think it's a part of that distrust if you will that kind of we see out in the marketplace that creates people to start looking for other opportunities to be paid more because of the social structure and all the other Financial pressures that we see out there absolutely I I think that's exactly what's driving that um it's that comparison and sometimes the lack of knowledge right and the lack of how things work in some of these areas and and both both things can be true at

[18:44]  the same time there can be a a reality in where other organizations are also not passing on you know those earnings to their Workforce that's true as well but it it's it's not just black and white there's definitely a great area that we need to also you know uh visit from time to time and so I do think that a lot of times comp compensation isn't the end all be all there are situations where folks will say well maybe I applying for this position and I might take a pay cup but I'll have work life balance I'll have these benefits that I didn't have before I'll be closer to home it could be a you know a number of things um but it needs to be partnered like for for somebody to come to that realization

[19:32]  it the organization also needs to partner that or those benefits with a sound compensation philosophy something that makes sense for 2024 uh because it's it's very different than it was even in you know when I started working in 2008 or nine or something whatever it was I feel like you know there's um and this is kind of leads into a perfect segue of our next type of conversation is the role that that HR plays in this fight so if we recognize that there's a new Workforce of younger generation and people who are coming into the space and saying money's maybe not everything but helping me develop as an overall person and proving that you're going to invest in me is a huge step so let's talk about some of the suggestions that HR professionals can use to be able to retain top talent the first one is

[20:20]  Thinking Beyond the salary so research has made it clear that while employees were sometimes dissatisfied with their compensation rates they were willing to to sacrifice higher compensation for additional perks like flexible work and job security Now this can be a huge opportunity from a communication perspective to be able to have HR leaders and leaders of organizations talk about additional perks so what do you think about Thinking Beyond the salary and the role of HR in that space yeah I think I said it before it doesn't you know pay isn't the endr be it's definitely the top um the the top aspect that folks keep in mind right as they're looking for work but I think it's also about creating me meaningful connections to the work that people do I think it goes into the

[21:08]  benefits into putting people in the right positions into investing in their growth I think you know I'm going to try to make a connection here but I do think that social media has played a huge huge part into the way that people view their work in the age of Instagram Tik Tok Twitter where people are making millions by posting a video by retweeting reposting or dancing in front of the camera it it goes back to that comparison like oh could I do that is that something that I could be you know getting a a chunk of and sometimes it is but that's not the reality for everybody and I think people if they can't do that if they can't become a millionaire on Tik Tok they at least want to feel like the work that they're doing is

[21:55]  Meaningful to the world in general but to to them as well and you know in the words of Jim Halper you know not just push paper um there's there's a very real component of that uh in my opinion and so it does need to be partnered with the benefits with the pay but I think employers have a responsibility uh of hiring folks for the right positions uh I I understand that there's a labor crisis and and many different aspects right but sometimes when you're able to make those meaningful hires don't just try to fill a seat don't just try to fill a position because you're going to find yourself having to recruit for that same position in six months right and so it's this cycle of do the right thing

[22:45]  and you'll see longevity in that employees life at that in that organization so my next suggestion is about communication and we kind of touched on that a couple times in today's episode but one of the next things they talk about is the resp responsibility of HR is to communicate clearly and often specifically around transparency of salary so this is a huge step that a lot of organizations have been taking over the last couple years is being transparent about what everybody's being paid now this kind of plays into the upper conversation of what we were talking about of these organizations are making gigantic profit and sometimes they are not passing those dollars down into the employee pool but also I think what's worse than not communicating about salaries is not communicating about the finan finial health of the organization so let's talk about the communication process around

[23:32]  salaries and also around the overall Financial Health of an organization what's your two step or two cents on that I've seen it play out both ways Keenan uh and in my opinion transparency is always the way to go people are better equipped to make the decisions that they need to make personally and professionally when they know where they stand right and so if if as an employer you're not making it your your responsibility to keep your employees informed about the health of the company and while the compensation is set up the way that it is that's just going to continue to further create that gap of trust because they don't know they don't always employees don't always take the time to read and and look into things and sometimes they it they

[24:21]  shouldn't have to you know as as a as an organization that should be your responsibility because you want to keep those folks on your on your payroll on your team um I think leaders should seek feedback from staff about their compensation philosophy and make genuine efforts to find true equity in those processes and sometimes you can't as you know some some sometimes the money is just not there sometimes the structure is not something you know that allows for certain things but then also be transparent about that if you're seeking feedback implement the feedback that you're getting or be transparent about why you're not because because it again it goes back to trust if you're just putting out all these surveys if you're just asking all these questions having all these meetings around these things

[25:07]  and there is zero change Zero meaningful change at least you're going to end up in score one people are going to be frustrated people are going to be upset and um not trusting uh your your intentions my my next subject is about Gathering feedback and analyzing feedback back from employees so I was doing some research um the other day and I came across a empowerment study about employees and how this is going to be a trend for 2024 and the biggest thing was 70% of gen ZZ workers who are coming into the workforce believe that they can singlehandedly change or impact their business based on their feedback and if they don't get that feedback they start going to social media where they can magnify their voice and get more people behind it so my question for you is why

[25:57]  is actually taking that employee feedback and utilizing it and weaponizing it to create a better company culture and organization in general so important and how does HR kind of play into that role yeah so I think HR is often tasked with the things that everybody else doesn't want to do we deliver the bad news we have the tough conversations uh but what a lot of people don't see in the background is that a lot of the times we have to as HR leaders we have to stay informed about what's trending on social media what people are saying how the culture is changing and I believe that a good HR leader is not only keeping their organization informed about these Trends but also advocating on the employee side because our our base responsibility in my opinion is uh stay a breast of HR policy

[26:49]  compliance uh make sure you're taking care of the company that's our base um task in my opinion but there's also a huge component of you also have to advocate for employees in a in a genuine Manner and so a lot of people I believe they don't see that that behind closed doors we are advocating we are asking having those tough conversations with our leaders as well right uh but we are not the decision makers in a lot of these spaces and so if if you have an HR leader who is staying on top of these Trends listening to what's out there and as an organization you choose to ignore it you're doing yourself a service because then you get the backlash then you get you know the cancellations then you get uh the loss in in customers and in

[27:37]  Revenue I mean there's just a downstream effect uh and you know you obviously people have their opinion about how social media is being weaponized um you know in today's culture and I get that but it's still it's still a reality that we can't escape right and so you should shouldn't as a as a leader as an organization I don't think that you need to wait until somebody's trying to cancel you to start listening you should be proactively listening to these things keeping your your ear to to the street about what people need um I think a lot of times and I think this is why people think that leaders are out of touch because I think

[28:25]  sometimes it's easy to forget that they're not just employees they're not just working for you like this is how they F how people find meaning in their lives this is how they put food on the table for their families this is literally their livelihood right that's what we're talking about and so I think that's why it's really important for companies to to listen to their their HR leaders they the people who are who have their their ear to the ground I mean that makes sense I think you know it's interesting because social media over the last couple years has been demonized because it's had negative ative impacts right but if you look at it as a tool that's always going to be here I think it's advantageous for leaders today to get their ear to the ground like you said or ear to the streets and be able to use these channels to gather feedback because I think there's an interesting perspective as well we act differently

[29:12]  when we're in our work environment and talking to leadership but as soon as somebody hops on social media they're going to let their actual feelings and all their intentions and their true you know thoughts fly and thinking that we can't tap into those communication channels to GA gather more insights I think is a huge misstep and it's something that very transparently leadership in the future of business is going to have to become used to because it's always going to be a Channel of communication and it's honestly more transparent and honest on those channels than everywhere else and so we need to use those things to our advantage absolutely so my next thing for you is benefits and a focus on mental health so mental health has become incredibly popular over the last couple years which I'm incredibly enthusiastic about but some interesting studies came out in a

[29:58]  lra health 2024 Health Trend survey 94% of employees said their employer offering mental health benefits was very important to their prospective employers but that number is almost three times higher than it was in 2023 so why do you think there's such a huge emphasis on Mental Health these days and why it's so important from a benefits perspective of the employee I think there's been a I mean I think you just touched on it now there's been a huge shift in the culture around mental health right people didn't really talk about these things a few years ago there was still a lot of taboo around mental health and what that meant um going back to social media there's a lot of conversation on social media about mental health there are things that are

[30:46]  being talked about publicly that would have blown people's minds in the '90s and the 80s like you're really saying this in public and so that's broken a lot of the the stigma around mental health and so I think people didn't feel comfortable asking for these things as a benefit from their employer right um but today I think many people understand the need to prioritize mental health just as much as all of the other aspects of our physical well-being and so with an increase in demand you know Finding providers that are able to meet the needs of millions of people at this point I think people employees are are relying on their organizations to think outside of the box and be able to connect them to mental health resources

[31:34]  that are meeting their needs and so I think that's going to continue to grow as people continue to uh be self-aware of their own physical and mental health needs I feel like you know what you talked on there was a challenge that I've been seeing in the mental health space since I got here in 2014 is we now have a gigantic demand for people who are trying to talk to a trusted resource a therapist or a counselor but unfortunately the demand is not meeting or the demand is outstripping the ability for those providers to respond so being Innovative about increasing access to resources is super important and that's actually kind of the work that we do here at Francis we have a mental Wellness service that sends you one daily text of positivity encouragement support or a mental Wellness exercise because we even recognize that even sometimes when an

[32:23]  organization allocates an app or they have a fractional counselor somebody who comes in into the facility or the office not everybody takes advantage of that because we're so busy doing everything that we do on a daily basis and so being Innovative about approach about how we meet the demand of mental health support I think is just super important it's going to be a huge part of business as we get into the next 20 15 20 10 15 20 years because I don't think that these challenges are going to go away anytime soon no I agree I think that the need for this is just going to continue to increase I mean we've seen it in the last 5 10 years so so my question for you as we kind of wrap is Marcos this is a little bit of a personal question but what does mental health mean to you mental health I think is just like I said before just as important as every

[33:11]  other aspect of our well-being uh as somebody who has trust uh struggled with anxiety uh you can you can put yourself in the shoes of other folks that your your colleagues your the people that you work with um um and I think mental health to me personally needs to stop being looked at as like a luxury uh and benefits it's not a luxury anymore it may have been a few years ago 10 years ago maybe it's not anymore it's just as important as medical and dental and all of the other perks and retirement and you know all of those other perks it's just just as important

[33:59]  um specifically here in the US we we're constantly bombarded with tragedies that are attributed to mental health right uh if and I think if we focused if we put a little bit more importance around taking care of that aspect of our health I My Hope Is that we would see uh some relief from the constant grief that we're experiencing colle itively and so to me mental health is everything it's taking care of uh your heart your your emotions and having a resource kind of to Channel all those things that you're experiencing personally but also how your work kind of forces you to acknowledge those same things yeah I feel like you know we've

[34:48]  run into a problem in society and when you mentioned you know the consistent tragedies um over the last even the couple last weeks we've seen consistent tragedies happening from shootings at different schools and it's just a part of our American culture which is so heartbreaking to say but it almost seems like there's a sense of like compassion fatigue that comes along with that as well because it's like oh there's another one oh there's another one I mean here in Las Vegas we had a shooting at UNLV a couple months ago and the fact that that happened so close to home hit differently but I was talking to my girlfriend and a couple friends about it and we were like it's tragic to see but it's something that we expected and that expectation of tragedy is something that is just so terrible to see as it runs rampid through our society because it impacts Us in so many different ways and it almost seems like we are willing to spend money to treat a symptom instead

[35:38]  of the actual problem and it's like guys let's refocus down to First principles and start thinking about what is actually causing this behavior and then how can we impact that to reduce it Downstream and I think that's just so important for us to kind of think about well Marcos you know today has been an absolute blessing I really appreciate you coming on the show giving your insights really kind of De diving deeper into these compensation issues some of the profit that these organizations are putting up the expectation talking about flexement as well which I think is really cool and interesting concept that we're going to see more of this year um as we kind of close here why why don't you use the last couple seconds to give everybody an understanding of how they can find more information about you your organization and if they want to connect with you yeah absolutely uh as I mentioned I work in the education space and so I work for a charter management organization called Alliance College

[36:27]  ready Public Schools we have about 23 public charter schools in the LA area serving um communities of higher need uh with a real emphasis on the idea that all students regardless of their zip code can achieve a college a high quality college education so that's what we really put emphasis on on ensuring that our Scholars are equipped with the necessary tools and res resources to get that college uh education it's so important a lot of me personally when I was growing up I did not get the opportunity to go to college even though it was a desire of mine and so I feel like putting again going back to your point addressing the real problem

[37:14]  instead of the symptom uh you know giving those Scholars what they need to get that is is really our emphasis and so anybody who is interested in connecting with me uh I am on LinkedIn and you can find me under my name Marcos Rodriguez um or my URL or my tag on LinkedIn is M Rodriguez 2591 uh and um Kenan it's also been a pleasure thank you so much for having me well I appreciate it guys that's been another episode of our HR Heroes series and Marcos thank you so much once again for joining us guys that's a wrap thanks so much