Sabrina Lippman: Why NYC Has America's Worst Homeownership Crisis

[0:16]  Welcome back to another episode here on the Heart and Hustle podcast. And today's guest, her family actually fought for a home in Queens and now she's helping thousands build their own in the heart of New York City. Sabrina, I ask you. You grew up in a tiny home in Queens. What did that really mean to you as a kid? And was there anything that you felt was missing?

[0:34]  Yeah. Um, oh my gosh. Well, first, thank you so much for having me here. It's so awesome to be on Heart and Hustle. Um, love the conversations that you have on this podcast. So, um, yeah, born and raised in Jackson Heights, uh, which back in the 80s was a predominantly Colombian neighborhood. My mother's Colombia, my father's Dominican. It was a Romeo and Juliet story uh to have a Colombian and Dominican together um in the ear late 70s early 80s.

[1:01]  Um and we were very blessed. We we had a home in in Jackson Heights and as I was getting older, the neighborhood was getting uh more unsafe and so my parents were really looking um to see, you know, where else they could move. Uh, and some of the neighborhoods they were looking at, I remember my mom telling me the story, she would go to the bank and that she'd be like, "No, you're never going to get you're never going to be able. They're never going to let your family in to that neighborhood." And honestly, it was through the grace of God. My dad had a friend who had a friend who had a older gentleman that was um going to be moving out. And it was that connection that allowed us to start thinking about um owning our first home in New York City. And it was, you know, he gathered up, you know, my grandparents had worked in factories, so they had gathered up some dollars and, you know, intergenerational living is very um common in in Latin households. And uh honestly, it was everybody coming together. It took a village um to get us to a place where we had our first home. And to me, it changed the trajectory of my life uh from

[2:05]  You wouldn't say you grew up missing anything. You you tight-knit family that uh really all supported each other. We are we were very blessed you know I mean I think low-income family but um but full of heart full of you know food lots of culture so to me rich the rich as we could be and I think but it really does stem Ephrain from like having stability in the home really sets the tone right for for anyone and you're able to as much as things can be going wrong as much as you know someone might lose a job or have to be out finding something else Having the stability of being in a safe, decent, affordable place to live sets that tone, right?

[2:49]  You know, it's so important that you said in this whole thing that I still truly believe till today is you said connection because your dad had connections, right? And that's really in the nonprofit space that is so huge for us is to build that connection, build that network of people and understand how to communicate with people. Um, do you feel like seeing your dad in this space communicating and networking with people and and understanding real estate because you weren't always in the nonprofit space, you actually got into to the real estate first.

[3:17]  Is that what led you to your first career before you get into your second career?

[3:20]  Without a doubt. I mean, my So, my dad was a small businessman and I saw him, you know, go through the motions, right? That roller coaster ride of success and then, you know, some lows and some highs. And to be honest with you, I was averse to it. And my parents, first generation, you know, it was like, you graduate college um and you go out and you make as much money as you possibly can. Like that's all that matters is make as much money as you can. And so I started in the private sector. I started in commercial real estate. I leased, managed, developed shopping centers in DC, out in San Francisco. And I was, you know, from a financial perspective felt very secure. Um, but I was not doing what I was put on this earth to do. I I was not connected to what I was doing. Um, and to be frank, I was making a lot of very wealthy people wealthier, right? And it just did not feel connected to what I was put on this planet to do. And so that's how I learned to hop. And one of the things that I learned early on to that point, and I think about my grandfather because I've always been selling like since I was 14 years old, I've been working. I worked at Aldo Shoes um in high school. And I asked my grandfather who was a salesman like what what advice would you give me, right? Like what what should I know? And he said there's only one piece of advice any salesperson ever needs to know and it's the worst thing they're going to tell you is no. So ask, right? And that I would say to networking too, right? Like there the more you open yourself up to making those connections, you never know. It might not be for that moment, but later on down the road and as I've gotten into my career, I've learned how some of the networks I built 20 years ago have really supported me today.

[4:59]  You planted a seed. You planted that seed 20 years ago. You watered it. You went out, you know, and people don't realize watering it means you plant it today and you still go out and do these other things. And you it'll come back in full circle sometimes and you ask yourself, how did I get here? And it's those moments, right, that you you you've done. I mean, your parents, your grandpa, your dad, mom, they all plant the seeds and and now you're making decisions based off of what your mom and dad really instilled in you. We don't realize that, I think, when we're kids, right? We we're too smart. We don't want to hear anything. But I can always go back and think to myself, and we talked about plants a little early before getting on. That's my mom all day. She used to water these, not her. She used to make me water these plants and said, "Don't you overwater my plants." Right? and and and I wasn't into plants, but when I got into it, I'm like, man, this is what I used to do for my mom all the time and realizing I actually loved it. You know, sometimes you don't even know you don't even know you love something because it was so far ago or so long ago. Um, so I I love that you're talking about that, but you then kind of say, you know what, I don't want to um do any more commercial real estate. I'm leaving. How easy was it from you for you to go from a for-profit to a nonprofit? Did you find any challenges? Is was it an easy transition?

[6:12]  It was hard. I'd be lying if I said it was easy. So, I mentioned I I had been working since I was 14. And listen, I I loved the commercial real estate space. I love the built environment, right? So, anything in real estate, I am naturally attracted to. So, I knew that I wanted to stay within the industry, right?

[6:28]  But specifically in the track and the niche that I was in, I was not feeling fulfilled. and having been working since I was 14, never not having the next thing lined up or I was very very blessed. I've always worked very hard, but I was working, you know, 16 to 18 hours towards the end there and I was really burnt out. And um I had one of those moments where it's like, you know, the straw that breaks the camel's back. Um I had just come back from my honeymoon. I had, you know, worked all up until my wedding. I went on a very short honeymoon so I can come back to work. Came back to work. We had a big situation and my boss goes, you know, I tell my boss, "Wow, that was intense, right? My first day back, you know, I was hoping to have a little bit more breathing room." And his response was, "Well, that's why that's why you don't take vacation." And that if

[7:20]  that was it,

[7:21]  that was it. And I had never in my life ever ever ever left a job without having something else lined up. And I left.

[7:27]  Yeah.

[7:28]  I couldn't hold it. And I was like, I quit. I It was like those TV sitcom moments. I was just like, I quit. Um,

[7:34]  yeah.

[7:35]  And you can imagine my husband who I just married coming home and done that I just quit my job. But it just felt like I couldn't even hold it back. And it felt in that moment equally terrifying but equally exciting. And it opened up my like world in thinking I don't have to do this, right? I can find other things to do. So I had done retail, I had done office, I hadn't done housing. And so this was almost 11 years ago now. And that was, you know, I was out meeting people and having informational interviews and networking and planting seeds and um I was introduced uh to the my predecessor at the time at Habitat um and hadn't thought really about the nonprofit space, but when I sat down and and spoke with them and learned about this mission, about how they're building affordable home ownership for working-class families, about how they do that in New York City, um it just it it felt just in it just felt very natural, right? Um

[8:37]  and it was a 2-hour information. It was supposed to be like a quick breakfast. It ended up being two hours. And at the end of it,

[8:42]  um again, very blessed. They were able to create a position and they wanted me to start right away.

[8:49]  And so that's how I started at Habitat. Uh and that was

[8:52]  I love the story. I love the story, Sabrina, of getting uncomfortable. Not a lot of people do it. You know, people literally will stay in a job and truly dislike it. But as you mentioned, it is a people think we should be chasing paychecks when in reality we should be chasing purpose, right? And the money will follow. All right? Like you're in a good place. You're not struggling financially. Can you go make more money? Yeah. But the reward is truly on helping other people, right? Like that's where the reward really is. You you feel happy that man, maybe I didn't have that, but someone else because of me is now able to experience what I'm experiencing today,

[9:30]  you know? Uh, and it makes a difference because we're not just impacting adults. We're impacting kids when kids get to

[9:36]  Oh my gosh.

[9:36]  get their own room, right? Get that that bed. Like there's so much in there. But I really also want to talk about you talk about working real young. And I'm about to throw a little shade out there. That's where the worth ectic comes from. Cuz I was with you. I My first job was at 15 years old, you know, and I was paying my cell phone bill. I was already paying rent. And at 18 years old, I'm already on my own. You know, I'm figuring out life. Did I fail as you mentioned? Yeah. But all those were completely lessons that we were learning along the way. Um making the transition from for-profit to nonprofit. What what was those failures if any and how did you overcome them?

[10:13]  Yeah, I think I think if I you hit it on the on the nail on the head. I mean the the fear is is financial, right? I'm coming from a first generation. I knew what it felt like when things got so difficult that, you know, if we had to skip a meal, if we had to do something, you know, and I to that point worked and I I paid my fair share

[10:33]  um of the bills for my family and I I still do that, right? And and so that weight, that pressure that so many um people feel is is real, right? And so it's scary to say

[10:45]  and it also feels selfish, right? To say, well, I want to do something that feels right for me, right? that this is more values aligned. And what I would say is you have to go with that gut because to your point like I love the way you do that is like chasing purpose versus paychecks because you're absolutely right and I think the money will come if you find what you love. It will get like God will find a way. The universe finds a way. Um I am more blessed now than I have ever been in my life. I am more fulfilled now than I have ever been in my life. And that is it was not easy. It was scary, right? It was scary to think, okay, I'm taking a a pay cut. How am I gonna adjust that with my family? But you figure it out, right? We are nothing if not resilient as people um and we will figure it out. And it allowed me to learn so much, right? Stepping into the nonprofit space allowed me to understand when you remove the bottom line from being your primary driver, the world opens up. What can you do? Right. If you have enough, right, and you don't need to be chasing more and you can pivot that investment into bettering working-class families lives, right? To your point, these families that we serve at Habitat, these are working people, right? 80% of the families we serve are single moms of color. right? They work two or three jobs. They're they're paraprofessionals uh in schools in the daytime. Then they're whole health home aids at night and then maybe on the side, you know, they're working at a restaurant. Like they do all the right things. Make too much money to qualify for any government assistance but then don't make enough to be able to go to the market and achieve that dream. So what it's just like you're spinning your wheels. And so when you think about living with dignity, living with pride, being able to know that I'm working hard and I have something to show for it, that matters, right? Apart from the fact of all the studies that show to the kids educational outcomes are so much stronger. 20% of the families we serve have college degrees, but 90% of their kids do, right? That stems from that home. Whether it's health, right? and being able to focus on health, whether it's safety, whether it's becoming more civically engaged in their community because they are part of it now. They feel invested in it because they own it. All of those things matter so much. And so for me, learning that space and understanding that made me think about all right, what's next? Like how do we scale this? How do we do more? And that's when I had the chance at um after five years with Habitat I went out and joined uh New York City and I I worked for Mayor Delasio at the time at the Economic Development Corporation.

[13:30]  I mean, how cool is it, you know, that you bet on yourself that you walked away with confidence even though through the journey it felt like am I I'm pretty sure you've uh had you a little imposter syndrome like wait a minute did I did I just do that? Maybe I should call him back. Like I but it's something in you as you mentioned it was something in in you in us at times that says you got to walk away

[13:55]  right and and it's not being dumb it is just listening to the man.

[14:02]  Yes right ab because a lot of times we we don't and then we go back to the same thing over and over and we're expecting a change but it's because you keep doing the same thing like over and over. is not going to change until you one day say enough is enough. Like I I pride in who I am and I like the man really said that's why we don't take vacations. What what do you mean to not have a work life balance? That's that's what you're telling me.

[14:30]  Like another man was trying to control your household, you know, and it that's actually really crazy. But I do want to talk about um the homes. You talked about the homes.

[14:39]  These are not things that are just given away. I think people may just think it's just given away, but this is there's sweat, there's equity in this financial education, the sacrifice. Do you do you recall a moment that uh you saw um that earned ownership really transform someone's life?

[14:56]  Oh my gosh. So I I there's a lot of stories, right, Ephrain? In all these years, there's there's a lot of stories I have. Um, one story that I think and it's only because I I was with this homeowner um just last week, uh, her name's Brena and she about 15 years ago. This is the beauty of Habitat, right? Is is we've been in New York City building for 40 years. And Habitat, I mean, it's such a big brand, right? It's 70 countries. It's been around for almost 50 years now.

[15:28]  But few people know that in New York City, we have been building in the five burrows for the past 40 years, right? So we have all these stories because we stay with these homeowners, right?

[15:38]  And to your point, these are not homes that are given away. We build these homes with volunteers, with the city, with the state, and these are homes that are subsidized so that they can match a affordable amount for a workingclass family. But that working-class family is putting in their sweat equity, right? They are learning how to become first-time home buyers. They are taking the courses. they are in their volunteering also, right? And then they purchase this home. They have a mortgage that they purchase and that is their home. Um, and one of the things that we pride ourselves in is we make sure whether it's a single family home in Southeast Queens or one of our multifamily, you know, 60 unit co-ops in the Bronx or whether we're preserving some of these limited equity um, cooperatives that have been around like in Manhattan and the Lower East Side for 40 years that are

[16:32]  at risk of foreclosure that we intervene and we help support. Whichever one it is, we stay with the families. We build relationships with these families. So we see them progress. So I think one story I'll tell you about Brendon in a minute, but Don Cal, right? So when Jimmy Carter got got started with Habitat, the first place he ever swung a hammer was the Lower East Side in this building, Mascot Flash. You can visit it. It's like between Avenue C and D right down there on Sixth Street. And it's a 19-unit co-op building. Don Cow was one of the first homeowners who built alongside Carter to for his unit.

[17:09]  Yeah.

[17:09]  He was um and this was in 1984. He was uh unfortunately he was diagnosed with AIDS at the time

[17:16]  and um had was very obviously terrified, right? He saw his friends passing away around him, but he now had this stable place to live. He was able to focus on his health. He got all the medical attention he needed. He got himself healthy and because he had an affordable place to live and he was able to get himself healthwise all set, he decided to dedicate his life to LGBTQ youth in Lower East Side. And so he started helping atrisisk youth on the streets to the point where he started building out a nonprofit. Now you look 40 years later, he has helped serve tens of thousands of LGBTQ youth and he talks about how he would have never been able to do that had it not been knowing that he had a stable place to call home. And that ripple effect is massive, right?

[18:11]  And Brena in Atlantic Avenue who's been there for 15 years has become a community leader, right? She is civically engaged in her community board. she was able to help support and that building, it's two buildings, 41 units from 15 years ago. All of the original homeowners are still there. Four passed away and they gave it to their kids who are all living there. And so that community that they have built is so beautiful, right? And you talk about, you know, the building right after that. We have a district leader that came out of that. You have So it's the stories are so endless, right? It's so hard to pick one

[18:52]  because they all show the power of what home ownership can provide.

[18:56]  If the Heart and Hustle podcast has ever sparked any idea or made you think differently, do us a favor. Make sure to guys share this, post it on LinkedIn, or even text that nonprofit friend that you just have. Whatever works, this is what keeps the conversation going and allows us to just grow this community together. Seriously, we appreciate you. longl lasting impact. That's what's being created, right?

[19:21]  Um, and while there's really good stories, right, the stories that you shared, we're still also kind of almost in a desperation because we still have 15,000 applicants that are are applying and trying to get this, but still not enough homes.

[19:36]  Yeah.

[19:37]  Why? Like what what is the situation there

[19:39]  here? It's it's it's very easy. I think people like to over complicate the housing crisis. It's not that complicated. It is the most basic economic principle there is. We have a supply and demand issue. Period. We have high demand, not enough supply. So, we need to build more. So, that's number one, right? Okay. But we've been building more. Why are we still in this crisis? Why? Because we have only housing is not a one-sizefits-all, right? We are not as humans a one-sizefits-all.

[20:10]  Yeah.

[20:10]  We cannot build one-sizefits-all housing. It cannot be all rentals in New York City. You are barely scratching 30% home ownership rates. We have the lowest home ownership rates in the country. Okay? The average is about 60 and we're barely scratching 30. So you're looking at a city that is 70% renters. Now listen, there's nothing wrong with rental housing. We need rental housing. People, some people will never want to buy a home. But I guarantee and I can tell you from that 15,000, we had 15 homes in Southeast Queens that we built, single family homes. When we opened up that application pool, 15,000 application. So it is not correct to say that people don't want to own a home, they do. They just can't, right? And so what's happening is because we've only built one type of housing or certain types of housing, we have created, if you look at the housing as a continuum, right? We've created a choked flow. We have all this rental, but we are not giving any real space for affordable home ownership, right? And if you look at the families that we serve, those moms that I mentioned, right? Most of them are coming out of public housing. Not because they want to live in public housing or in nitro buildings, it's because where are they going to go? You can only push the working class so far out. We're on an island, right? They they can't be commuting two or three hours to get here. So now, as important as it is for that family to move into their new habitat home, you've also just opened up that public housing space for someone in supportive housing to graduate and move into, for someone in shelter to move into supportive, for someone on the street to move into the shelter, right? You have to create that continuum and that flow. And if we build out and we put more emphasis on home ownership, you will allow that flow to go because those families that are looking to own, they will be able to graduate and move on, right? Allowing that family behind them to graduate and move on and so forth. So I think that's the answer for it.

[22:08]  It's like how do you not enjoy what you do, right? You're really helping people on on their journey and then as you mentioned they become successful and they just want to give back.

[22:16]  Um and that's that's kind of the life that you're in, right? Someone gave you an opportunity, so you wanted to give someone this opportunity. I dealt with adoption and sexual abuse. I want to be the voice to others and let them know they're not alone in this world, that there's still opportunity. You just got to find the right resources, the right people that are will be willing to listen and execute at the same time. Um, and I think what what's kind of going with nonprofits, and you really hit it on the head the last time we spoke, is that they nieced, you know, that startup energy. um because they still living to me almost like in past times, right? Um what does that look like? Wh why did you even say that? Did you is that an experience that you have or are you seeing things that is like what are you guys doing?

[22:58]  Yeah, I mean I think it's it is totally startup energy because it's startup energy but without the resources, right? So, it's it's hard when you're so deep in the weeds, when you're so deep in the mission to be able to say, "Hold on, let me back up.

[23:13]  Let me get back to like that 30,000 foot level and are we doing this the right way?" Right? Are we being as efficient as we can be? Right? When you're so constrained and you're so lean and everyone's wearing so many hats, it's hard to find that dedicated time. But it's so important, right? Because what you're missing out on when you don't do that is the ability to see, well, wait a second. Is there new technology that we could be using to help streamline certain processes? You know, are we making sure that we're reflecting back and making the impact that we want to make, right? Can we be making a bigger impact if we built in coalition? Right? If we found other partners to help us in this mission. And so, I think that part we're always going to be nonprofits will always be scrappy. It's just that's the way we operate. Again, we're not bottom line driven. We're not about, you know, our goal is always how do you impact more families? How do you broaden your reach to to be able to help serve more? Um, and I think sometimes what's left behind is realizing that on the back end, how do you streamline to give yourself more time to think that way?

[24:22]  And you mentioned, you know, um, just evolving. You mentioned technology word on the street is that AI is a new tool that everyone's trying to incorporate right um how incorporating AI the technology itself you you speak to some leaders and there's kind of a fear in it I actually was very surprised I spoke to my mom yesterday my mom is 63 years old and I was like ma you ever use chat GPT and she's like what I said chat GPT and she sayso and I'm like never mind guess you never used it so I I was showing her and she's like wow you really use this I'm like, "Yeah, all the time." And it it is something that people do live in fear because of, you know, safety reasons. Completely understandable there. But I'm seeing that a lot of people are implementing it. So now they get to do more of what they want. And especially in a nonprofit world where we really get to do more of what we want and we can automate it and AI some of the things that are just um heavy on time, you know, that same old same old admin work that no who let us do admin work to be quite honest with you. But what is what is your thoughts on AI? Is that something that Habitat is looking at or are you guys kind of dipping your toe in it? I would love to know where Habitat's kind of taken the AI world.

[25:31]  Yeah. Yeah. And I'll talk uh specifically obviously I'm speaking on behalf of New York City and Westchester. So the way we're structured, we're our own

[25:38]  different chapters. Yeah.

[25:39]  Right. Exactly. We're our own nonprofit and so we have incorporated we have our own AI policy because it's just you kind of have to live in the world you're in. Right. And so to me, I think I do have a lot of trepidation on AI and it's very new technology and what does it mean and what what are you feeding it? You know, it's like good data in, good data out, bad data in, bad data out.

[25:59]  Um,

[26:00]  but I think it would be a missed opportunity to say, uh, well, we're not we're not going to dabble our toes in that. Um, especially if there are things to your point, Ephraim, that allow us to be more efficient, right?

[26:15]  Yeah. the the not to me personally and we'll see like 10 years from now, right? If it's too AI, if I even Sabrina's talking,

[26:24]  that'd be crazy.

[26:27]  But I I cannot envision a world where I think AI where it is so helpful and useful is on the technical automation side when it comes to what nonprofits specialize in, which is that people piece and the social queue and building relationships and building trust. um to leave that in the hands of something like an AI to to me is is a disservice, right, to the families that we serve, but to allow us to get more time to do that work while AI works on things like administrative tasks, like putting together minutes for a meeting, like making sure we're staying on top of action items, like scheduling, and that to me makes a lot of sense because all of a sudden, to my point earlier, instead of us wearing seven hats, Maybe we can wear six and choose one, right? And that allows us to really invest our time where it's most needed. Um, and so we have put but how do you do that responsibly? So we put together a very thoughtful um AI policy taking uh cases from different from the tech sector to other you know national nonprofits to see what's what they're doing and just making sure that we're being very cautious right that we're not providing sensitive data to chat GPT that can then be used um in ways that maybe we're not aware of right now. Yeah.

[27:50]  And so being very very responsible with it I think is critical. But I also think it's a tool that is going to it has already changed the game in so many ways.

[28:00]  Yeah, I agree. I agree that um nonprofits have a lot of data if done correctly. Nonprofits should have a lot of data. So for your to board, you know, your board or your community to be able to reach out instantly and get accurate information. Like that's kind of mind-blowing because it would take now sometimes call Sabrina call this person and now we're all calling three four people probably forgot to call back the person at this point you know but we can do things that now it's like we can help that out of sight out of mind. I think that's another situation, right? Is that how do we continue to be in the face of someone and let them know that we exist? Not just in a time of need, um but in a time of giving,

[28:40]  right?

[28:40]  You know, because everyone always knows when that when you need something, everyone finds the resources. But what happens when it's time to give, you know, and I think that if we're not reaching out to people like, "Hey, you know, I know you told me cuz being a part of a nonprofit, I I hear people say, I would always want to donate, but you have to remind me." Okay, so how do we do that? You know, and I think that organizations I'm I'm seeing helping other, you know, nonprofit leaders whether I'm having these conversations or through coaching is that they're now implementing social media. So, just think about it. We now are implementing social media. To me, if you're not implementing AI, you are left behind because social media should have been a part of your marketing, part of your game plan a long time ago, right?

[29:20]  Um because that's how you stay relevant. So, I I do I do love the AI. I love how people are using it. I do feel that there is a safety measure there and I and I honestly think that when people think AI is going to take away jobs, I think people that understand AI and as you mentioned know how to get good data back out, not just any data. I need good information. So I think those are the people that going to be replacing and as you mentioned as well yeah I never see a robot taking place of a human interaction

[29:49]  because listen I speak to my AI all the time Sabrina okay and I have good conversations but there's nothing but getting you know a laughter uh just seeing somebody different from across the world. I I just can't see me talking to a robot 247.

[30:03]  Yeah I think at the end so long as like we I think that's it. I think Ephra that's it. It's just remembering how important human connection is because and I do too. You know, I'd be lying if I said I don't have my conversations with these AIs, which are very warm, but at the end of the day, you know,

[30:22]  it's it's AI, right? It's a robot. So, it's

[30:25]  making sure the emphasis on human connection is always there.

[30:30]  I love it. Um, do you do you feel like there's any like surprising AI actually freed up space for your team? Like is there anything that you guys implemented you just really felt that oh my god this is good?

[30:40]  Oh my gosh. I think from uh like having it um take track of meeting minutes and action items, right? Because I think that's the part that it's the followup, right? That is something that's so easily forgotten and having

[30:56]  it be able to really quickly comprehensively say, okay, this is what everyone's working on and then you measure progress off of that. game changer for us. I think the other place is gathering there is in the housing world it is so broad and there is so much happening at any given time.

[31:14]  So being able to go into a prompt and say you know gather all of the news for each day and deliver it in the morning right um and be able to like quickly conglomerate you know what is happening in the housing space um across you know the city or the country. the amount of time that saves somebody from just Google searching, right, is is huge. So, I think there's those are a lot of little ways, but I think that will continue to evolve. Um,

[31:43]  no, I the big the big one that you just said is um and I don't like I take minutes in and as a you know, president, but I I can't even imagine someone sitting there just taking minutes like you want to get involved, but you can't miss something, you know, like what did she just say? Hey, what did she say? Right.

[32:00]  Um, so I spoke to my secretary. I was like, I know you don't really like to do this. You're just doing it cuz for me, but listen, why don't you use AI? That way you don't have to do that, you know, and you could just take that, put it like prompt it. So it gives you exactly time and time again organized. I think it's the funniest thing. I recently did uh we provided scholarships for my old high school. It was like 15 scholarships. So we had to write a script for each child. Um, so it wasn't my responsibility, but it was another lady's responsibility. And I'm like, "Hey, have you ever used chat GPT?" And she's like, "Uh, no, but I'm willing to learn." She's like 70s something years old. So, I'm showing her this and she's like, "Oh my god." Like, she's just in awe of what it's doing. And, um, whatever. I get on stage and I'm I'm giving these, you know, kid after kid. And another board member that's there, he's like, "Yo, Ephrain, that was the best. Did you write all those? Those were so good." And I start laughing. I said, "No, Chad GBT did." And he's looking at me like, "Oh my god." But it's it's that as long as you have good data and you prompt it well, it just sounds so good. And then to make it sound in your own voice and I think that's where people are they see AI, they understand AI but not really understand AI because if you could put it in your voice um I have one now I think you mentioned to you a little bit about my assistant my chat GPT now it's in a workplace that she could use that same brain of chat GPT to get a lot of my work done. So if it's articles that need to be written, right, she could take a transcript from this conversation, go put in chat in my word and says, "Hey, let's get an article on leadership and it'll take everything that we did, like come on, that's saving time and still showing up

[33:36]  right

[33:37]  as ourselves in reality, right?" Um, so I don't know. I'm a big fan of it. Uh, but let's talk about people that um, they're listening. They just never volunteer, never donated, or really paid attention to this space. What's that one small act that can really ripple out if they start today?

[33:54]  Yeah, if I love that question because I think right now it's tough out there. It's it's a tough world and it can feel very overwhelming. It feels like what it feels very um disarming in the sense of like what do I even do? What can I even do? Right?

[34:12]  Um I am so inspired by the collective activism right that we are seeing around the world. And one of the things that I'm just such a big proponent on is is just do something not nothing there's no such thing as something too small right so whether that and for Habitat you know we have volunteer opportunities up in the Bronx right we as big as Habitat is from a brand perspective again we operate independently in New York City and Westchester so for all intents and purposes we are actually a small nonprofit in this space so every dollar that we receive is critical in in order to be able to help more working-class families. So, if you are in a space where you feel like, you know what, I can donate. I can I want to make a difference. I want to be a part. I want to leave my mark on the New York City skyline, this is an amazing way to do it. So,

[35:02]  donating monthly, right? Even if that's $5 a month, it makes such a difference, right? And so, I would say just get out there and and these small acts of kindness, it's incredible what they can do because that's how it all starts. It starts with you, right? And if you can find a way to donate, volunteer or advocate for better housing justice. We constantly have different um legislation that we're writing to better our housing laws.

[35:32]  So advocate for them, right? Send a note, right? Make your voice heard. Um so I think there's so many different ways uh that folks can support. I I'm gonna ask you a question so I can tell my neighbor this answer because um he says, "Ephan, I don't know if I can do electrician my whole life or like if that's what God wants me to do my whole life." And I said, "Well, you never know if you don't try anything different." And I said, "You can start in the nonprofit space." Um that's my go-to all the time. It's like, yo, and I'm not saying that you have to leave your job, but you can volunteer 5 to 10 hours, right? So, I think about for the Habitat, like how cool it would be to give his experience as an electrician, right? A master electrician to say, "Yo, I want to be a part of that." Is that something that people can actually do?

[36:11]  Absolutely. We are always looking for skills place. One of the things we do at Ryen is we work with workforce development nonprofits. So this is part of that coalition building where they are trained, right? They have OSHA certified training. They're carpenters or they're um you know in the trades, plumbing, HVAC, electricians,

[36:31]  but they need that real world experience. Come to Habitat. We will give it to you. We're building so much. we're happy to use our site. Um, we have an incredible construction team that has expertise as well. So, you're not alone. They're going to be there.

[36:46]  They'll guide you through it. But, it is something we're always looking for. Um, because every dollar that we save on that side allows us to keep the house affordable for that family.

[36:56]  I love it. Yeah. I tell people all the time, there's a nonprofit out there for you. Just Google what you love and put nonprofit and I can guarantee you there's something there. Absolutely. Um, so and he's a single man. So I tell him I said, "You never know, you know, doing this type of work, you might find the the woman that of your dreams, right? Like-minded people, you know, he starts laughing at me."

[37:14]  No, I'm going to tell him exactly what you said. Like, listen, she said they can utilize your your experience. Okay,

[37:19]  I'll give context right after this call.

[37:23]  I love this, Sabrina. We we've been chatting it up for some time. Where can people find you? Where can connect with you? Um, but also the social media for um your local Habitat. Yeah, thank you for asking. So, I am incredibly active on LinkedIn. So, come find me on under Sabrina Litman. Um, our website habitatennycwc.org. You can kind of look at all of our socials and uh follow us on Facebook, on uh Instagram, on uh X. Um, through those we've gotten me uh excited. We are not on Tik Tok yet. And I think now with this AI, maybe we can find a way to get ourselves enough content to be uh

[38:04]  listen. Yeah, Tik Tok is it. Tik Tok is really cool. I jumped on TikTok about two years ago and um we talk about doing what you love. I love wrestling. So I used to watch wrestling for years, but especially my later years as an adult, you just fall asleep on the couch and uh it's a three-hour show. I fall asleep. So, I used to um I remember sometimes when I was at work overnight, I would watch this guy and I wouldn't watch the show, but I would watch I would listen to his commentary and listen to the match that way. Thought it was pretty cool. So, as I continued to build the podcast out, I'm like, man, maybe I could build my own wrestling community. So, I said, you know what? Ne I wasn't a Tik Tocker. I didn't know anything about Tik Tok. I said, I'm just going to show up, right? It just just show freaking up. Um so, I showed up every Monday, every Friday, and even when my friends were making fun of me like, "Yo, you still watch wrestling? you know, it's fake, right? Our responsive beast. So is all the damn movies you watch, right? So is all these shows you watch. But continue doing it. Continue doing it. Sometimes not knowing why I was doing it. I mean, my mind it was to build community. Um, and wrestling for me when I was growing up was really a escape of reality of everything that was happening to me. The sexual abuse, the adoption, the feeling alone. You turn on TV and you see these superstars are greater than life. Like you're just so entertained. So, um, to all that to be said, I as a young kid always said, "Man, one day I want to do something with WWE, right? That's as big as it gets." So, I'm an extra on WWE TV, you know, holding back one of the wrestlers at my barber shop. At my barber shop, cuz my barber cuts celebrities hair. Like, he called me, "Hey, they're going to be here today to do a scene. You want to show up?" I said, "Uh, yeah." Drove 45 minutes to be there. Okay. So, when they ask me, "Hey, do you want to

[39:46]  Yeah. you know. Um, but then I get people locally that say, "Hey, will you want to do commentary?" Um, and the big the biggest thing was just showing up and doing what you're doing, staying consistent. Anytime someone says, "How did you get to 50,000 followers on TikTok?"

[39:59]  I showed up and I stayed consistent and I go live to this day still every Monday and every Friday. But the biggest win was recently mindset is everything, right? And when you listen to somebody's story, it could easily become your story in a sense of your mind starts to absorb it and thinks that it's your story. And um so I had a friend tell me something and I'm already like in this kind of in my head like, "Oh my god, I had another friend says, "Hey man, check your TikTok. I I earned $5,000." Okay. Like they paid me allin-one. $5,000 to do what I was already doing.

[40:33]  Wow.

[40:34]  So when you show up, so Tik Tok, first of all, there's there's there's a lot of things to be done on Tik Tok, but it goes back to what we said earlier. If you just show up,

[40:42]  don't chase the paycheck, chase the passion. Yeah,

[40:46]  I love wrestling and I was doing it for free to build community so people didn't have to watch wrestling alone because I get it sometimes people make fun of others that watch certain things. So I show up and I have a anywhere from like 50 60s to maybe 12 13 year olds that are in the group and it's how do we build community where people can see feel seen and heard. I try to read every single comment like I truly engage. So, it's just kind of back to everything that we saying, man. Just chase what you love.

[41:13]  Just chase what you love.

[41:14]  And I think if there's anything to take away from that, it's that community building, right?

[41:19]  If you do that community building, if that if that is where your heart is, the rest will fall into place.

[41:26]  But it is all about community. It really is.

[41:30]  This has been a good conversation. It's been a good conversation. Are you ready for the hot seat? We got one more question for you.

[41:35]  Oh my goodness. Yes, I'm ready.

[41:38]  All right. What's one lesson you learned from your parents' hustle that still shapes how you lead today, but you've never said out loud on a podcast? I mean, maybe to anyone.

[41:52]  That's a good one.

[41:53]  Yeah, let's go. Let's go.

[41:56]  Um, I've never said this live on a podcast, but I learned it from my dad. Um, and it goes back because now as CEO of a nonprofit, I find myself in a similar situation as entrepreneurs, right, that own kind of all of it, right?

[42:11]  My dad always, he would say when he walks in the door, right, after it doesn't matter if it was a great day at the office, at the at the business, or a terrible day, he would always hang it up before he and and I appreciated that so much. He never

[42:25]  let out his frustration in front of us. He never he never showed it. He always he was always just so healed. Um and it is something that

[42:35]  I still strive to be. It's hard, right? To just be able to hang it up

[42:40]  and

[42:41]  it's not about not showing it, but it's about realizing that

[42:46]  you cannot let your frustration seep into your personal

[42:49]  Yeah.

[42:49]  from a professional side.

[42:51]  Yeah.

[42:51]  Um

[42:52]  that's good.

[42:53]  That is something that I still strive to continue to do.

[42:56]  Yeah. That's really good because I was complete opposite. I My mom has seven kids. She was a single mom. So now I get it a little bit. You know what I'm saying? Like you had seven kids. Yeah. You did this by yourself. Um but she would show the frustration and I didn't know when to ask her a question, when to not, when to approach her, when to not.

[43:14]  Um so I kind of always grew up just never asking,

[43:17]  right?

[43:18]  You know, and I and it now that I sit here and just say that, I'm thinking like, damn, maybe that's why the nonprofit world has been so hard. I hate asking, right? Because there's trauma to that.

[43:29]  Sometimes we don't even realize why

[43:33]  something is so hard.

[43:34]  Yeah.

[43:35]  But if you go back and you really dig deeper, you realize like, oh wait, there's actually something to that, right? Um, so thank you for helping me just dig that up. Maybe that's why I hate asking. I am not a person. And maybe it's pride. Maybe it is what it is. You know, as Hispanics, we just keep it in our house and we don't go outside of that. Yeah.

[43:53]  Um, so it could be a little bit everything, but I really appreciate that. What is your blind question for the next leader, though, Sabrina?

[43:58]  Okay, my blind question, um, you know what? I'll I'll go along similar lines. I'd love to know for the next guest when they took a risk and whether it paid off.

[44:13]  Like when they took a big risk and how it paid off or didn't.

[44:16]  Okay, I love it. Yeah, I love it. I love it. Sabrina, this has been a wonderful conversation. I always am so intrigued at how fast it goes. Like this is almost a 45 45minute conversation, but it felt like a five minute conversation. I feel like I can do this with you for a long time. So I definitely appreciate your just um being authentic, being yourself, and and being vulnerable at times, you know, to share those stories. So guys, if you guys haven't already, make sure that you guys do connect with Sabrina over on LinkedIn, but also make sure you guys connect with them on social media as well and see what they're doing in their city, okay? as she mentioned, Habitat for Humanity is different chapters. So, we're talking about her city happening in New York City. Um, we thank you. Make sure that you guys do comment and share. That's the only way that people actually know something is going on here and that this even exists and get to meet people like Sabrina, other leaders. I think that's great when I when I see another a woman leader of color as well that is getting to do this. Um, representation matters, you know, and I'm pretty sure that's big for you as well. another young little girl that looks like you is gonna like, "Wow, she's doing this. I can do it as well." So, we thank you for your time, guys. This has been the Heart Hustle Podcast. I'm Erain. This is Sabrina. We'll catch you guys in the next one. Lers. Thank you.