The $1M Question: Is College Worth It?

[0:00]  on today's episode of the heart and hustle podcast I sit down with John Davenport the dean of students and director of student life at the Ohio State University at Newark now today's conversation is going to ask an really important question why should we even go to college anymore over the last couple years we've seen a dynamic shift in the way in which we approach higher education as a community and as a society John's going to talk about some of the challenges that he faced in his academic career how he's been able to leverage life and lived experience to help students navigate and make better decisions for themselves the accountability that comes with growing up but more importantly the nurturing an enablement platform that higher education is today in our lives for helping us become the best version of ourselves really excited for you guys to check out this episode John is an

[0:47]  amazing leader and he is an amazing individual who's helping us navigate these unsteady times in higher education let's not waste any more time let's get into the episode you may not be a professional baseball player but those Lessons Learned are highly transferred able to other endeavors in life and that's the other part right it's you know you obviously your goal at the time was to be you know I'm assuming a major league baseball player but even if you didn't quite get to that Journey the the time you put in the the ability to dedicate yourselves to a yourself to a task um as you as you maybe something current in other business Endeavors and personal Endeavors um those lessons are highly transferable um and so it will make you stronger and better equipped to handle other challenges in life that seem to have nothing to to do at all with with what you worked your way through students are educated and um

[1:36]  understand their resources and um and in some cases the resources have to be you have to to hit them a couple times with you know okay doing this because like right now to most orientation most colleges are going through orientation programs right now I tell 90% of what I tell you today you're not going to remember um what we want to drive home is I want you to know that when your student needs something there are professionals here who will guide them and advocate for them and get them to those resources all right guys welcome back to the heart and hustle podcast here for a brand new episode with John Davenport

[2:23]  and today we're going to be talking about the landscape of higher education and I feel like there is no better person who can give us a true understanding of what landscape looks like than you today John so man welcome to the show Ken thank you very much for having me um great opportunity i' love to talk about what I do so happy to be here absolutely man I want to kind of start off by merging our episodes together our previous guest was a guy named Mark DOI and he is the leader of an organization out of South Florida and in our conversation we talked a lot about leadership and he said something that really kind of caught me right in the heart he said in tough times it is the people who are leaders who are going to step up and make the biggest changes in this world of instant gratification and social media followers are often not the people who are going to stand up and do things differently so his question for you was what is your defining

[3:12]  leadership Behavior what do you see as the most defining behavior that can demonstrate who you are as a leader h for me I think the ability to listen as it's intended to listen to as the message is intended by the sender um and I say that because I think especially in this world today and I agree with agree with him wholeheartedly um we often either listen with our own lens in place and so even regardless of what you're saying we hear what we want to hear or what we've been preconditioned to hear um or we listen with an agenda we're not even really listening we're preparing our rebuttal or preparing how we can take what you're saying and shape it and it to my own

[4:00]  ends and so I think you know there's action there's um planning and things like that but really as a leader those you work with those you serve to be able to listen to them truly with the way in which it was in it was intended um I think is the the best skill one of the best skills that a leader can have forget who had the saying but one mouth two ears you should listen twice as much as you speak and I feel like in today's society we've lost the ability to actively listen and that's a real challenge for a lot of people especially in this instant gratification world huh absolutely and the part is we have so many messages and we have we have so much information coming at us that sometimes it's not it doesn't seem like it's in our best interest to listen because we have

[4:47]  things coming we have to process and react process and react because it's coming at us so fast that if we don't um we're going to be things are going to be we're going to be 17 lines down and missed it um because people believe that because they have to respond as fast as the information comes in and I think the leader who's comfortable again is sitting with that and you know no we're going to pause for a minute let me make sure I take this in maybe ask some reflective questions and then go um I think that's an art that's um less and less practiced and needs to be um really high much higher on our list of what we're teaching young people today anybody and any leaders in particular I feel like we have a responsibility at some point in time in life to make decisions that are big that have huge implications basically are we going to go to higher education are we going to

[5:33]  take the The Road Less Traveled are we going to be an entrepreneur there are so many opportunities and choices in life and like you're talking about over the last couple years it seems like there's a lot of misinformation if you will that kind of comes out about higher ed and what it really means from the participation and the output that you're going to get from experiencing higher ed so I want to talk about that a little bit but give everybody a little understanding of your current position and kind of what you do at your organization I'm currently the director of student life and dean of students at a shared campus it's the Ohio State University Newark it's also Central Ohio Technical College and so um it's a great part we're a shared campus call shared and so I have the benefit of being of working with the traditional uh institution at the Ohio State University but also at a community college a technical college Central Ohio Technical

[6:20]  College and so for me it's a great opportunity to work with those who want the traditional higher ed path or exactly what you're talking about folks who for for a lot of different reason I'm I'm an adult learner need some certifications I'm returning to it and I don't I can't afford to take a lot of time off I need to get some certifications um to better my family situation so um often times I'm sure we'll talk about a little bit later there's this dichotomy of there's one type of higher education um there're multiple types and so I love that I have an opportunity to work at a place here in central Ohio that offers both and I get to serve students on both of those paths um and sometimes you have one move from one path to the other you know they go back and forth sometimes One path leads into the other one from the technical college into the four-year institution um but I'm at a beautiful place and it's really a Nexus of of what

[7:08]  we're talking about in higher education of um the different paths the students can take to better themselves to support their families um and do well all in one institution so I really really love what I do I want to talk about your journey a little bit to bring you to where you're at today in our previous conversation you mentioned an individual who had a huge impact on your life their name was Clarence shell I believe yes sir who was that individual and what role did they play in your life when he came to me Shelly was I believe he was the um assistant Provost at the University of Illinois um but he was also he was an adviser to our fraternity he's a fraternity member and um his role was to um Shel was The Unofficial um I'm G to be careful my language um at a time in the country where um there was

[7:56]  a lot of um we were divesting for this it's a long time we were divesting from South Africa there was a lot of um black pride in the start of a lot of of of that movement um Shell's unique role great administrator but he also had a an ear and a heart for the students in particular students of color and so Stu so um you know Shel used to joke that he was the um he was the black people Wrangler sometimes right if if if there was a student um sit in we we were biging the C in as protest back in those days there was a c in or something like that shell was generally the first administr on the scene um and so he also again was the adviser to my organization my my fraternity and so um when I hit a rough patch um when I for for and strictly my own fault um too much partying and too much playing around got

[8:42]  dismissed from the University um shell my parents were freaking out um Shelly called them and said hey I I have them he took me there was a community college um Parkland Community College in town in Champagne arbana he took me over to Parkland got me registered helped me work out an agreement with the University of Illinois that if I did so many credit hours and got a certain GPA at Parkland I was assur at read admittance back into the University of Illinois and so he checked in you know he made me come in weekly to do check-ins with them um in my time at Parkland and um made a difference in my life when I got back into the University of Illinois um at that point I didn't I had some my career plans were changing I said Shel I want to do what you do man because you made a difference in my life my parents to this day um my dad's still here are grateful to him and so one man's Direct intervention and and hard

[9:31]  um we call Straight Talk and some hard truth sometimes um is why I here where I am today right now so I he's passed away not too long ago um but I owe it all to to Dean Shelly is what we all called him man isn't it amazing how one person can step up and do right by you when you can't do right by yourself and they can put you on a path that's going to be one that is destined to impact so many other people the one thing that I really love about your story is being somebody who is showing up for students is so much more important than I feel like any of us really tangibly understand especially when we're at the education process because one of the conversations I would love to talk about a little bit later on the podcast is the misconception about higher ed is just waking up and going to school right coming back home waking up and going to school doing that and repeat but you said in our previous

[10:18]  conversation that it's been proven that students who do that don't have the best experience and don't perform the best in school as well there's so much more that comes with this process but before we kind of dive into that stuff what is the misconception that we're kind of dealing with in the country right now with higher ed what's your two cents on that from my perspective what I hear and it drives me crazy is and I'm a lifer in higher education so um obviously I'm a little biased but what I hear people talk about is the the exorbitant cost of higher education and you hear these stories about someone coming out with you know $150,000 in student loans um there is a cost to higher education um and because of um dwindling State Appropriations there was a time when our states paid for a huge chunk of public education and therefore the cost to the consumer to the families to the students

[11:06]  was was less over time as you know Appropriations to higher education have gone down in order to make that up we've had to to raise tuition so tuition in a lot of places is very very high um but again what people um a lot of a lot of the things you see not all but a lot of things you see are these exorbitant hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt you dig deeper and that's somebody who got a law degree from colum from Yale or you know what I mean again and I've primarily worked in public um State Flagship education University of Missouri University of Illinois where I attended I'm here at the Ohio State University um and I talk about those pths and so if students want to attain higher education in a reasonable and a timely manner I can point a student on multiple paths that can get them a college degree in a field that will earn

[11:55]  um in some cases for significantly less than than an SUV than a nice SUV and so um but it we are told that the student debt crisis and things like that and so the only way you can get high education is to go into debt and have to give a limb and you're firstborn and things like that and it just it drives me crazy because I'm a testament to it um that there are ways to achieve higher education high value degrees in education in a way that's manageable and affordable um it involves our community college system our technical colleges it involves maybe some State institutions versus um certain private schools and private in tions and things like that but the conversation is so simplified and and um it fits our modern narrative that um it just when people talk about that it drives me crazy there there are multiple ways to get what we need out of higher education fits or modern

[12:42]  narrative is a perfect way to kind of sum it up because I feel like in a lot of those conversations about you're going to go to school and you're going to come out with all this debt and you're not going to be able to find a job is kind of a lack of accountability but also a lack of a plan right if you're going to go to school and get a a liberal arts degree or something that has no tangible impact on your ability to make money in the marketplace then yes you're going to probably come out of school with a whole bunch of debt not a lot of experience that you can apply towards your field of choice and that's going to then create some hardships Downstream is that kind of the intersection where you were talking about that col or the technical aspect of the organization at the Ohio State University at Newark that gives you that flexibility to kind of cross those paths and identify what you're looking for absolutely because I think and the key part about it is um I think and there needs to be like as with any

[13:32]  decision you know there needs to be um time to sit down and talk about it to plan to consider to have good guidance and advice um especially a lot of folks especially first generation students and things like that who might not know um I just I was speaking to a we're in the middle of our orientation or some orientation for our incoming freshman class and talking to a mom today and she was asking some questions that for somebody you like me who's been in higher education for the last 30 years super easy to answer but she didn't know and you she just hadn't been exposed to she was first gen her student would be first generation and so I think sometimes with those conversations and and again we can get into K12 education and and what folks are not getting when they come to institutions or the um the preparation um and it all starts with

[14:20]  with with education and preparation right and so I think um again we're fortunately we're at a place that's small enough that we can have direct contact we can help folks have those conversations you know any place I work would probably murder me to hear me say this um but there are times when telling a student this institution isn't the best fit for you is what's best for that student um or you know maybe you need to spend some time at a local college or someplace closer to home or um a smaller um public there there are a lot of things that are so individualized about higher education that I think what gets lost is it's not just a one-size fits all I want to go to college so I'm going to go to the biggest institution on a block that might not be a good fit and so again but because we don't have those mechanisms for everyone to get the same education um to get the same education about higher education and about the

[15:08]  practices and and making good choices um I think a lot of people by the time they realize where they are um a good number of student debt if you really look under the numbers or beneath the numbers is people who have a couple years of college but don't even have a degree exactly yes because they got they got kind of caught up in the meat grinder and and and and spit out but the Dead still there cuz you know Caesar you know Ren Caesar what he will get paid and so those are the kinds of things and so of course those folks skew it because now they have a large amount of debt they don't even have a degree to show for it so the types of jobs they can attain you know aren't the same and so paying back the debt is doubly difficult and so there's just so much there's so much context that needs to be explained in these situations um that I think if people knew I think it really would change their View and perspective on

[15:55]  higher education no I mean I totally agree and that's why I want to have you on the show because your unique perspective is somebody who is a lifer in the space and so you understand the elements that are necessary for people to make good decisions one of the things that really inspired me about our last conversation is you had mentioned that when you went to school the expectation of higher education was to sit at the feet of your professors and learn from them and eventually something good was going to happen for you how has the the landscape changed now what did you mean by that statement and I think it's it's a great thing a lot of folks have been moan it but it's a great thing I grew up in and I'm 52 um and so for me high school was 85 through 89 um and so again the modalities and which things were taught were very very old school and traditional right the teacher at the front of the classroom lectures um and

[16:43]  talks to the students and you take notes and you write that down a lot of memorization um a lot of rot you know I just I learned this like I learned the 50 states like I remember um you know I could go I can spit give me a state I could spit the um the capital but then we had to the next phas M you know um oh my God an arbor right Lancing oh my God in Michigan State people I'm at Ohio State so nobody cares about Michigan that's um but but right so it's like but then the next stage you have to actually fill it in on a map well I had memorized it but I got to fill it you know I mean so that was that was education then now our students are so much smarter because of all this information they have access to they're so much more I think more inquisitive they are used to being engaged in different modalities so I'm going to have to do a little walking and

[17:29]  talking I'm gonna have to have some AV presentations I'm gonna have to do some short videos some audio clips I'm gonna have to do some Hands-On um students today are demanding to be engaged in multiple ways that that that kind of trigger all the parts of their brain and and that is huge and and again I'm not here or paint the rosie picture the higher education is always right higher education overall does not change quickly I always joke it's like sometimes trying to to steer a cruise ship with a clown carwheel um we are sometimes slow to change and so so um but our students today are demanding that change and and a lot of it's coming from the external forces but we've got to adapt and and and move on and and adjust um if we're going to be successful because the students are demanding it this whole school way of teaching just isn't working I mean especially because of the pandemic right I mean we saw the the pandemic as a

[18:17]  catalyst where everybody went into this digital world we started doing everything so asynchronously instant access to information multiple different modalities of engaging with content if that's reading if that's presentation like you talked about video presentations audio stuff what are the some of the other culture elements that changed in high Ed because of the pandemic i' love to hear from your perspective I think a big part is just that like but how and the timing and how information is delivered right and so I can you talked about sing versus a sing I can we can someone can watch this podcast live when you drop it or they may save it for a car ride a week later or three days later um often times in higher education I'm going to speak broadly um we've come to believe that our information is best delivered fresh

[19:06]  right and so getting a big thing I will say is getting faculty getting people in higher education sometimes to deliver our message um because some of us are you know I'm fine with recording my conversations what they mean is I want to straight record it and just drop it on you right um students are are saying not only do I want the lecture but I still want ways to engage and so so it's not just a lecture up and maybe a PowerPoint attached with some notes um there's some some we want this to be a little bit more responsive right so if I have specific questions in the moment um I want to be able to still reach out to you via chat and drop that question oh you know seeing this prompted something um and so I may drop you I may send you an email or I might expect you to be in the chat and or I may want you to be the chat within um the zoom or te some of

[19:54]  the funniest things I've heard is is some some folks is they deliver content and man I'm trying to do my thing and people I look up and all these questions are popping up on the side like I don't have time I'm focusing on it you know what I mean but that's how these students they're listening to you watching they're firing off questions and then you know God forbid you know I can direct message you hey did you understand this point and um it is it's people would in general just call it multitasking but I think it's the ability to deliver information in multiple ways simultaneously or very very closely coupled together um that is one of those things because if it was just a matter of delivering a lecture and recording it and you reading it at the at your leisure that wouldn't have been a huge huge change or adaptation but it's um again a video some text maybe some more audio because now you drop a word on me I don't know it while

[20:41]  I'm listening to you I'm going to go ahead and open up a browser find it oh okay got them and get right back to it um without breaking a sweat and so um a lot of people feel that you know that's divided concentration and things like that but that's the way because the information is available that's the way a lot of people process now I mean I think think a lot about consumer Behavior I talk about this a lot in business in general the consumer behavior that we experience in other parts of our Lives means that we expect it in environments like school and work and if those things are not met then we have a a feeling of inadequacy right like something's wrong here we're not getting the same amount of Engagement the feel the touch the information is not the same it's a really interesting perspective I want to talk a little bit about the transactional nature of students today because this is something that you really got fired up about in our last conversation so what do you

[21:28]  think has caused this transactional nature and what does the transactional nature of student mindset actually mean to you I'll start with the cause first again as I talked about when the relative cost of higher education was not that High um students it was it was just such a good bargain that students didn't quibble too much with um the cost and or not the cost but they didn't quibble too much with how it was being delivered you know I'm getting a great service it's it's a great price um and so I'm going to go ahead and you know I'm fine with it you know you're you're the expert you're the master I have to go through all these this Administration this Bureau bureaucracy and and crap I'll deal with it because what I'm getting in the end um it's so beneficial to me such a minimal cost I'm fine with it as that subsidization as that Appropriations from the states have gone down and more

[22:15]  cost has come up and it's taking more and more for students to attend I think and and don't get me wrong I think rightfully so um students and their families are demanding a little bit more responsiveness um in the process now where I think it goes sideways and goes off the rails is this isn't you know I grew up I worked you know was grocery stores and things like that you know there's a saying the customer is always right um in my view in higher education students aren't customers um they are here to be educated right and so sometimes education one of the things when I talk to families I tell them it is my job to make sure you get all the information you need but I never promise it's the information that you want right and so sometimes you know you'll hear things like um well you know that instructor gave me a c or you know as much money as I paid

[23:04]  you know families often say as much money as I'm paying they they should be getting more than these poor grades well you you earn the grade right coming and paying isn't you know a guarantee of a certain outcome right you still have to come in um put in the work learn and things like that so right now I think folks are so caught up on the sticker shock they say for what I'm paying I better get X um really quick changent thing I use with my students all the time is in a lot of ways it's it's not a Perfect Analogy but in some ways higher education is a lot like a health club right like I tell people like I'm joking my my wife and I am recently married are going to on a vacation trop Aruba in December oh nice I got to get in shape I love Hot Wings I love bourbon now if I join the health club but never go and then come December I'm on the beach

[23:52]  looking sloppy I can't go back to the health club and say you cheated me I want my money back where are my six-pack abs I didn't work out I worked out twice a week still eight Wings you I mean so again it's important analogy but you're paying a high education you're getting access to faculty staff support networks tutoring resources um and we should make them open and inviting to you but ultimately the participant though the student has to engage with those Services you have to go to class you have to um engage with tutoring you have to use the writing lab the math lab um and so and that's what to me the transactional piece of breaks down because if it was a matter of you pay x amount of dollars you guaranteed a degree when you walk out of here that's a a clean transaction it's not that you're paying for access to resources facilities instructors teach things like

[24:40]  that um and I think again a lot of folks get it but when you're looking at a huge number um and when things hit the fan like right now we're in orientation season fents love that message they're so happy with it yeah that's right my kids going to work hard and you know students like I'm going to give it at my all talk to me again in November when grades about to drop um we'll be having some different convers I say I tell people like remember you remember this moment I wish I could take a picture every day remember this moment we're all singing Kum by we're all happy we all agree with it um and sometimes things change a little bit do you feel like do you feel like the lack of accountability on a personal level is what kind of contributes into the if my kid is paying for so much or if we're paying so much money for the education they should be getting these grades because very much like your experience when you talked

[25:26]  about in our previous conversation you went to College you got involved in all of the social elements and unfortunately that's where your focus went and so that's where all of your resources went I was the exact same way I went to school at a school called Coastal Carolina down at Myrtle Beach South Beach Absolut technically yeah exactly went there and got distracted was doing the wrong type of stuff was still paying for education had a scholarship to play baseball and stuff like that but I was not accountable and I feel like the holistic college experience in itself was a lesson in accountability you're not under Mom and Dad's Wing anymore you're not at home you're by yourself it's your job to take advantage of all the resources that are necessary and here for you to get the best bang for your buck and that was something I was hoping you would be able to talk about is maybe the message of higher education that isn't spoke about which is all of the surrounding resources that are so

[26:13]  important for students to be involved in yeah and I couldn't agree more we we like you said we're cut from the same cloth and and the the tricky part about it is it's a balance right because again a lot of folks wanted to blame it on students and you know they just don't want to take accountability for anything a lot of people want to blame it on again like with most things the truth is somewhere in the middle um if students are educated and um understand their resources and um and in some cases the resources have to be you have to to hit them a couple times with you know okay doing this because like right now to most orientation most colleges are going through orientation programs right now I tell 90% of what I tell you today you're not going to remember um what we want to drive home is I want you to know that when your student need something there are professionals here who will guide them and advocate for them and get them to those resources um same thing with

[27:01]  the students you know we tell them you know you're beautiful you you got this plan um when things go AR R it's not just about you you don't have to just worry about disappointing my family you know things like there are folks will help you manage it and navigate it um you just have to be willing to ask um and so I think that's the part that um and there's some accountability with that because we know numbers through through different reasons um just kind of tap out um and just you know continue partying doing everything say but there's just as many students who if they remember where to or or were comfortable enough to reach out U because higher education can be intimidating right there everybody got titles out the Wazoo we go to you know everybody's got all these things on their wall when you walk into faculty offices and um you know we half our stuff is in this regalia right the Pomp

[27:48]  and Circumstance of it and it can be really intimidating um for a lot of students and so I think it is there's some some additional accountability needs to to to happen on part of students but I also think institutions need to design um interventions and resources in such a way that we are reaching out to the students and continue to let them know that we are there and we are available for I mean one of the messages that I got when I joined my fraternity when I came to UNLV here in Vegas was it's not about just being a part of the fraternity but it's about the relationships that you build here that are going to play for the rest of your life me being a young 21 22 year old kid didn't really believe that but now today I'm currently in business with two of my fraternity Brothers we've gone down their own paths and we've been able to leverage that connection I want to talk a little bit about the social media voices that say that higher education in

[28:36]  college isn't really necessary today what do you say to those voices and I think you know I'm qualified in it I think it depends on the path that you're willing to chart for yourself and and success in that regard is it's just as much work being an influencer right a successful influencer is just as much work as attaining a four-year degree and I'm talking about the ones who you know have all of the trips paid for not the ones who faking it with the you know the trick shots and things like that you know the the toilet lid like it's a a plain window for a private jet right but to really be these people raking in millions of dollars they are hustling day ended they are putting in a lot of energy um they're putting in the same some cases may be more energy than it might take you to go to school to go to class to study um and the more successful ones most of them did not

[29:26]  achieve that success overnight it took time time um and so I think sometimes that message gets lost because that's not that's not a fun sexy message for me to put out in um if I'm trying to package myself in the glamour of my lifestyle um as the product right and so often times that's not what we're going to share that's not what they're going to talk about often if you'll get them in choir M some interviews they they'll talk about it but the package the product is all about success easy breezy times happy living um and and again we tend to focus on I was I was looking at something recently I was talking about um and and I I just talked I just fell into this trap talking about while vacations nowadays are becoming more stressful and one of the things they talked about was one because of social media right we see everybody taking their Beach vacations with their washboard abs and you know on the surf

[30:14]  board and so that we feel like we have to live up to that right in our vacation I'm just talking about I got to get in shape to go on vacation that's it's kind of dumb right I should be able to go enjoy my vacation but and so again those messages they resonate and they do have um an impact on us and I do think younger adults um who haven't had as many experiences who are still seeking um validation um recognition value from their peers I think it can have an outsized impact on many of the folks of that age um especially High School age and even early college age um and so I think that outside influence on them and on that lifestyle sometimes overshadows um the fact that in order to do most things in life again you play basic always my goal was to be the starting

[31:01]  short stop at Chicago I Sox that was my dream I couldn't even come close to hitting a curveball what I mean Charlie was breaking you off yeah look and and so it's like you know people think athletes anything that's worth doing requires a great degree of work and dedication and concentration but the good ones don't we don't see it right because we see the end product and I I just think that's the message that needs to get conveyed more and we need to talk about how we can make higher education palatable um and you can do that work um and and you can reap some some shorter term rewards as well I think you know I shout about it but I think another thing we talk about with higher education is you got to do four years or if you want a master's degree six year um it's all about wholly deferred um rewards and that's something that this generation is

[31:49]  is used to um you know I called out the the micro rewards from like in video games and things like that they're used to to a little bit more acknowledgement and some some Rewards at kind of benchmarks along the way and again higher education has got to be a little bit better at that as well it's not about you know you do all of this and at the end of the rainbow is your reward we can find ways to give people some recognition of some importance and rewards along the journey um to help incentivize them and keep them on the on the right track man brother but it's tough to fall in love with the journey process I was going to ask you how many things in your life have come instantly and have been a huge return on your effort when you've been like man that was really easy and now I'm all set how many times has that happened to you I I can't think of a time when it has uh you know the only I joke withe the only time I I grew up in F that played the lottery a couple times I hit 40 bucks on the

[32:36]  lottery right so a couple times I dropped a dollar on a you know a box three number three three numbers box and won 140 bucks that might be the only thing I still cost me you know a dollar I'm dating myself again but other than those lottery tickets and and I paid a lot more than I won even with those um so I I can't think of too many things that were you know High reward little low work low effort just can't think of them yeah one of my buddies uh his name is Dante he's a partner in my business he uh talks about marketers ruin everything and I was like what do you mean by that he was like we are always trying to come up with a marketing message that is quick and easy zero effort no no time passive income instant gratification instant reward because it's something that we're attracted to because we always want that shortcut yeah but if you really think about

[33:22]  applying yourself to anything being a short stop for the Chicago White stocks trying to play baseball professionally there were so many many days where I spent in the dirt taking ground balls hitting curveballs trying to get better and unfortunately it just didn't work out for me but I'm still glad that I was able to put in the work to actually get there and I think that that's something that we need to hear a little bit more in society the echo chamber if you will is that great things do take sacrifice or at least seasons of sacrifice in our life in order to accomplish great things but they don't last forever it's just a season in our life and I feel like that's really important to kind of echo absolutely and I think the other part about it is um you may not be a professional baseball player but those Lessons Learned are highly transferable to other endeavors in life and that's the other part right it's you know you obviously your goal to Time Was to be you know I'm assuming a major league baseball player but even if you didn't quite get to that Journey the the time

[34:09]  you put in the the ability to dedicate yourselves to a yourself to a task um as you as you maybe something current in other business Endeavors and personal Endeavors um those lessons are highly transferable um and so it will make you stronger and better equipped to handle other challenges in life that seem to have nothing to do at all with with what you worked your way through and I think that's those aha moments that come and those again those aren't instant things those are things later in life how many times have I think about you know in life that something that somebody was trying to drill in my head you know four years ago you had eclick oh man I get it and and um that's what that's all about right that's what it's all about do you have a tough time deploying patience in your life I recently took a behavioral

[34:56]  assessment and part of my behavioral assessment was I am impatient when it comes to results and I put a lot of pressure on myself how do you kind of deal with patience when it comes to accomplishing things in your life I think ironically the older I get the more difficult it gets um I've been fortunate enough to to by being in the game when I was working more directly and I still have a good amount but when I was working more directly with students um it was easier the other part was it's where I was in my particular life Journey right when I was young like I took pride in you know I'm starting at the bottom too I'm you know I'm here with you um and so it it was easier to be patient the other part was um I grew up on I grew up on the south

[35:43]  side of Chicago and again I wasn't in a horrible place but I wasn't you know it wasn't the Fresh Prince right and so I I grew up I saw some things in life that I was like you know what it's not that you know what I mean I saw some people come to some rough ends some some it's not that and so I had some early life experiences um my parents were amazing um and and and letting me stumble and fall and bump my head a couple times and so um I had a good perspective for me getting into the higher education space early on I was like this is this is great because I'm dealing with lowlevel issues right um at the time I didn't have the awareness even though it was low level for me you know K you getting kicked out of school and I try my best that's what I thought at first As I Grew a little bit more

[36:30]  empathetic you know things changed so you know early on it was easy I was crazy patient because I was like you know at the end of the day make it not I'm all right you know what I mean um but as as I became more empathetic and understood the importance of each individual case what it minut then you know the middle tier of my career I leave it that way trying to put dates on it years on it but um that's when I patience really grew with some kindness and more empathy and so I think I was definitely better and and now um in in a more administrative role I'm kind of seeing it from both ends early on I could I only dealt with the student and so all this chatter from outside about you know let's get rid of this work and you know higher education you know practitioners are overpaid I wasn't so I didn't even think about it you know what I mean now that I'm kind of on both ends I'm working with the

[37:16]  students but I'm also trying to push back against some of that um so now my patience is a little less but it's going both ways sometimes with Stud I'm like really come on man sometimes with you know the things see I see happen in the world I'm like come on people we got to be better so um yeah it's ebbed and flow because we're talking a little bit about you know some of the soft skills here in our last conversation I brought up a book um into this conversation this is 12 and a half by Gary vaynerchuk dropped this back in 2021 the subtitle of this book is leveraging the emotional ingredients necessary for business success so there's 12 and a half ingredients or soft skills in here and I want to get your opinion about some of these um what role does curiosity play in your life John it's I gota I have to know why right and I want to ask and um I need to know and again working with such a diverse with

[38:05]  on any size campus curiosity about the personal stories and where our Stu where my students have come from um helps me find ways to engage with them and learn about them and so that's that's what that's that's what high ucation higher education is about the stories to me and you know all the different students I meet and and interact with so always if I'm not curious I'm not going to be doing this job anymore I love that last one I got for you is ambition what do you think about ambition that's a tricky one that's a tricky one um and and I say that because I think ambition to a certain degree is good um you know what and it let me my fault I'm I'm I'm I'm boxing myself in ambition to do positive things I think

[38:53]  in my head I first went ambition I think about money car there you can be ambitious for for any number of things and so I think ambition um for I hate to use this word for the right things ambition for things that are um that give for Beyond just the material I think is a phenomenal more education to learn more about people ambitious to improve yourself um I think I think that ambition can be a great thing again it's just I got to get out of the Trap of you know thinking about being only and being ambitious about certain things I think that's that's a great thing for someone to be a leader and to be successful man I was really hoping that you were going to be able to pick up on that Nuance because a lot of people today think about ambition as I need the next car I need the next house I need the next dollar value but I'll tell you what man

[39:40]  I've had some experiences in my life where I've been surrounded by other successful young entrepreneurs who are pulling down like multiple multiple multiple six figures a month and I'm like man if I could do some of the stuff that these guys could do I would be happy at some point in time I was able to get the car I was able to get the things and there is no scarier feeling than dedicating your energy and your effort into accomplishing something that is materialistic you obtain it you put it into that hole inside you and it disappears and that hole is still there that is one of the scariest experiences and so I think about ambition in the element of being able to have healthy relationships being a trusted friend that people can call on being somebody who does things that they say they're going to do AKA a man of your word holding myself accountable towards doing the things that I know I should be for myself and for others I feel like those

[40:27]  things are inputs that create the output that can create those monetary things down Downstream and I'm so glad that you took that there man I really appreciate that no it's it's great again it's just something to remember to remember it really is I want to use our last couple minutes here to kind of talk about your perspective what does the future of higher education look like from your lens so much has changed like we talked about the last couple years we've got new generations coming into the space we've got great leaders like you holding down the fort ushering us new into into a new age what do you kind of think about the next five years 10 years of education I think there will be um in most places not all um some places are immune to it because of the nature of migration but uh many states where I am in the midwest um some of the northern states we're talking about a demographic Cliff so in higher education

[41:15]  there going to be a number of places that um as a result of the depression of recession whatever you want to call it of 2008 this is about the time students born about that time would be coming of college age things got tough people don't have many babies and so in a lot of places um we are seeing a demographic decline in the number of available students so I think I think there's going to be a little bit of contraction in higher education I think a lot of Institutions um are either going to have to merge or totally shut their doors where I am in my area in central Ohio um in just the two years I've lived here there have been two smaller private institutions that have shut down um I think and again primarily tuition based in order to support tuition has got to be really really high high so I think there's going to be a little bit of contraction I think there's going to be a um a trimming I shouldn't say that way

[42:03]  there's going to be a um a reduction of Staffing um there's going to be um for two reasons one because administrative um what some people perceive as administrative blow would be trimmed but the other part there are fewer people who want to do this kind of work who are going to be coming into the field and so I think um you know a little consolidation a little um some issues losing staff um for multiple reasons um and so I think those are going to be some things that are going to freak people out and in some ways kind of Drive some change I think to change is we will become more we will become better at integrating technology into the educational process I think you will see more of what we call micr credentialing um and that's where I think the community colleges and technical colleges are pway so you know six months get a degree that allows me

[42:51]  to work in a cleaning room for a chip Manufacturing Company not necessary for and earn a good living and if I want to continue I can stack other you know another two-month class another six-month class I think we're going to see more creation of more of those um and I also think we're going to successfully in the next five years integrate artificial intelligence um right now it's it's many folks see it as an opposition to learning um I the tool you you it there are some amazing things that can be done um and I think as we be see it brought into the fold and not seen as what are way we can block AI or catch people who cheat using AI how can we begin to incorporate it into what we do I think the institutions that are successful and I think higher education is poised to do that um we're going to be I think going to be the leaders in

[43:39]  integrating that into our educational processes so it's a little reduction some some some scaling down but I think the places that are survive are going to be stronger more techsavvy and and engage students in a lot of the different ways that they need to be engaged to be successful it's interesting to kind of think about uh the conversation of artificial intelligence because I have it so much on the podcast you've got two camps really you look at people who often think that AI is going to be the end of the world right or it's going to be the accelerator that's going to help us do more with less and the end of the world conversation very much sounds like back in 2000 when everything was going to tick over into the zeros on the computer and everybody was like make sure you got enough water in the B bathtub because we're g to get in trouble you know what I mean it's it seems like we continue to make these mistakes over and over again um there's one interesting study that

[44:26]  talked about McKenzie relased a study that said by the a by the year 2035 I want to say that there was going to be 800 million displaced jobs because of AI at the same time there was going to be 860 million jobs created because of AI so which side of the headline are you going to be on when I think about higher education we need to adopt technologies that help our team do things that are more meaningful it's an interesting time in history because a lot of the unfulfilling work that I hear so many people complain about in the ethos of work is repetitive stuff redundant stuff I don't like answering questions I don't like going back and forth on email now we have ai that can do that stuff and put humans in a higher leverage seat to have meaningful conversations and like you said talk to that parent or that perspective student say this either is or this is not a good choice for you and

[45:12]  this is why by the way you can obtain all of your information via the technology that we've got available at your fingertips I feel like it's an interesting time to be able to leverage the human element instead of thinking about it as a replacement if that makes sense oh I I wish I could I need to bottle that in and share that with a lot of my staff and people I work with it's again technological leaps are followed by a lot generally you know we're talk probably from the wheel to the motorc car right the motor it's Panic freaking out this is going to end us this is and then people gradually adopt um figure out new ways see the benefits of it and Infuse it into our lives moving forward and so I think again that's going to happen again I in some ways I just think um again we have much more access to more information and more the doing and Gloom um and so again you're absolutely

[45:59]  right I think the places that are successful because not everybody will some people will go to we at a dinosaur right and just hold on to I think those folks are probably going to be underemployed in the future if employed at all um being real about it but I think other folks those who adapt industries that adapt are going to stay robust and find ways to better serve their constituents and provide meaningful employment for the people who want to be in those fields and I feel like that's kind of what we have to let's go back to that ele El of curiosity right we have to be curious about what the future looks like you know it's not a red it's not a blue it's a purple it's somewhere in the middle that's where we're going to be able to find success um because often what got us here is not going to get us there man so John I want to I just want to say thank you so much for being on the podcast I want to use the last couple seconds here for you to pose a question for our next guest what do you got and I

[46:47]  think you you kind of touched on it and be looking forward to hear other you know other folks answers on it we talk a lot about soft skills and the value of them um but I want hear their perspective on the best ways to quantify those soft skills for folks who are living in a transactional world um how can they you know how can we package those in such a way that folks see the value in them um and somebody who might not necessarily be inclined to but but how can we quantify and um and help articulate the benefit of these soft skills in a Marketplace is so dominated by how much things cost and the value quote unquote of everything well there we go guys thank you once again for everybody who is watching and listening today for the hard and hustle podcast John Davenport again appreciate you for being on the show man man thank you very

[47:35]  much whether you be well