The Hidden Costs and Benefits of a College Degree

[0:00]  I think because the world moves so quickly we're very quick to jump in and try and solve a problem um and so I think uh one of the pieces that stands out the most uh for me is you know the ability to listen and I think we're seeing um some definite challenges coming after the pandemic where folks were so reliant on digital communication um that it's hard for them to start a conversation um and go back and forth um you know even in being uh the political climate that we're in right now now instead of um having you know civil discourse and understanding that we don't have to be rights um to be heard um I think leaders really need to come into that space and be willing to listen to observe um to understand that there may not always be a right reason

[0:47]  or what was right yesterday may not be right tomorrow all right guys welcome back to a brand new episode of the heart and hustle podcast now today is going to be an amazing conversation because I'm sitting across from somebody who is the definition of heart and hustle specifically in the higher education space now I have an amazing leader across this table with me I have Sarah Williamson who's the dean of students at Newman University Sarah welcome to the show thank you so much Ken it's great to be here I'm incredibly excited to kind of learn about your unique perspective

[1:35]  on what's happening right now in the space of higher education especially when it comes to student expectations the things that they're looking for when it comes to their education the investment if you will but also some of the ways in which you're helping this next Generation think bigger and think different about their experience as well so before we kind of dive into today's episode how does one become a dean of students especially you know at such a young accomplished age what was kind of your journey like between where we started and how we got here oh awesome I mean great question I H grew up my dad is a teacher um actually it runs in his entire side of the family um and the one thing they told me before I went to undergrad is what they wanted me to do was be anything but a teacher um and so it's this running family joke um that I I went into the family business um in

[2:24]  regards I actually started off though um wanting to go into dietetics uh nutrition um my dad had an emergency heart surgery when I was uh in high school um and so I saw the power of these terrific uh health professionals um and thought this was the pathway for me and then like many folks who decide to go into the Health and Sciences um I found anatomy and physiology was not my cup of tea whatsoever um in regards to it uh and so I was just really fortunate along the way that I had these great professionals I I worked as a tour guide in admissions I worked in Resident Life that kind of kind of gave me that pat on the back and that support and I learned about this field of student affairs that I didn't even know was a possibility for a career um and so it it really ended up opening my doors to possibilities um as I went through it and and that's really the

[3:12]  story of my whole career I just have come across some really magnificent individuals that have helped me see the potential in myself um and so now as I step into this Dena student space you know I get the joy and pleasure of helping students along their way and and finding their joy and potential and opening doors and helping them see possibilities that maybe they didn't consider before they walked into that space student affairs is so fundamental for setting the tone right of somebody's experience in higher education what was kind of like the aha moment where you got that pat on the back if you will where you knew that student affairs and this entire space was something that you were going to give your most important resource your time to yeah H that's a terrific question um I think there's been a series of of moments uh along the way um but in particular I actually um I went to undergrad at the University of

[4:01]  Delaware um and I was there and had the ability to work in residance life with a terrific group of individuals that actually piloted the first uh co-curricular experience um and and a curriculum for residential um students and what they wanted them to actually learn um so talking about that return on investment you know if you're living on campus for four years by the end of the four years what do we hope you learn in this high density environment um and so being being invited into spaces um and having a chance to contribute to what that curriculum actually looked like along the way and for folks saying you know student affairs is more than just throwing pizza parties it's about building Community it's about capturing that learning um and those moments that may not always be realized you know

[4:47]  helping somebody process after class or connecting you know that experience from an internship into the next one um into a future career um or what they learned in a class and having those aha moments and uh for me that was really it so I got invited a seat at the table um in undergrad with some of the most incredible uh professionals I've ever met who then opened the door and showed me some different sides so I've had the joy of working in Resident Life I worked in health promotion during the pandemic um student conduct um which is sometimes a challenging space to being with students when they're not always at their best um and trying to you know help them you know learn for moments that could be really a period of challenge get them connected into the right supports um but it all started because somebody was kind enough to invite me to the table and show me you

[5:34]  know the profound impact that we can have um and those spaces I'm really interested to get your perspective when you're coming through higher education yourself as a student right what were some of the opportunities that you tried to I would say change impact when you became somebody who was in charge of student affairs and Dean of student were there any type of perspectives where you said I'm going to do things differently yeah I I think um you know I look back to some of the the decisions that I had folks kind of redirect me in a different way um that I might have been making an undergrad you know sometimes not studying the way I should I mean I think we see oftentimes students coming into their first year not having strong study skills um right and so how do you actually study for the first time for many uh people or how do you conduct

[6:22]  research or really write uh robustly um and so I try and take that lens into the work that I did and so I remember I had this wonderful GA position uh where I was doing Health uh well-being alcohol and drug education and I tried to mix up you know let's bring some fun to this but let's actually teach folks what they really need to know what are the things um they should do I now even to this day I love getting into that space and doing like Alcohol and Other Drug education and so um along my way and my research I found uh fun facts are really great way to kind of capitalize on the attention and so there's this really interesting study that was done um back at Purdue and in the early 2000s uh when Red Bull and vodka was really popular and so one of the things that actually found is that physiologically drinking a Red Bull and vodka can have the same effects as

[7:10]  doing a line of cocaine um and so for students it just resonates with them so much and they remember it but I've had that like moment that that you can capitalize it that almost shock and awe um that opens a space for you to have some really important dialogues with it like all right why are we choosing to consume this you know how does it impact my body how can we bring a greater sense of awareness in this how can I make more informed choices moving forward um and the number of times I've had students come to my office like afterwards and be like oh I was at a bar and the student and I was like did you know and it sticks with them and so I you know some of those changes instead of just sitting in the front of a room and giving yet another PowerPoint presentation um and sounding like the you know teacher from Charlie Brown like wamp w w wamp at the front how do we get folks engaged in

[7:58]  dialoguing and and remembering these cool fun things that they're going to carry with them because those are the memories and those are the moments of change that are really going to you know make a large impact on the line I mean it's just it's so impressive to hear about how you're changing the way in which we engage with this different generation because they have been conditioned to think about things like fun facts right and those are the things that are impactful rather than standing up there like that teacher like Charlie Brown so cool really interesting now one thing I one thing I know about you is you're also an ad junk faculty member at Westchester University so you're doing a lot in the higher education space what is this what are you doing there as an adun faculty member yeah I um had the privilege I've ad junked on and off um interestingly enough in the leadership space and talking a lot about that um over uh my career but I had the ability and was

[8:47]  invited back to help train the next generation of student affairs professionals um and so what's been really beautiful is I'm working with a cohort of students now that are in their last year of the program progr um and we're talking about what does leadership look like in an implied environment what does it actually look like in practice um and so this is a great space again you were talking about you know what are some of the ways to Pivot and change and um I I work with a wonderful group of Faculty members and we adjusted the course uh to incorporate in a section of it looking at politics policy governance and higher education so what are the things that leaders really need to know to be able to cultivate change whenever they step into these environments right how do you understand the political landscape that you're walking into um

[9:35]  what does that incremental change look like what is the best way um to manage from the middle um and so we're having these really intentional conversations that are not only looking at the current events that are happening in higher education and and the need and the skills and the qualities of leaders but what does it actually look like applied in in practice right um transformational leadership and James McGregor Burns is great but what does that actually look like um when you're in a day-to-day space and so um it's been such a breath of fresh air to get to spend time with these folks that just want to change and improve or or have a lasting impact like those who had it on them um and their own experiences for undergrad and so yeah teaching has been really fun and and doing some you know different and and applied Concepts and helping them really think about who do they want to

[10:22]  be as that professional in the field what was the family's uh reception when you said hey I'm going to go teach this next generation of great leaders based on the advice that they gave you well you know I have some uh not so tiny humans um who have only ever been on college campuses and so um my my 9-year-old thought I was going to hogw worths to teach them and so I think in some ways you know student affairs professionals absolutely have some magic like Hogwarts um but I did have to let her know that there wasn't that kind of a letter coming in the mail um but I think it's awesome I look at my kids right um you know I I didn't know this field existed I um you know grew up uh my my dad taught um but my experience more aligns with uh some of the things

[11:09]  that a first generation college student um goes through and experiences just for the simple fact that my dad ended up putting himself through school um going into the army he actually served in Vietnam um and so his experience is very not traditional he commuted you know and he was in Roc and then ended up serving um and so that living on campus you know more traditional College age experience was not uh common in my family it nobody else had that um and so it's funny watching my kids now grow up in this space where they know what it's like to see these like incredible leaders and and speeches on campus um you know my doc my daughter has been featured on social medias with University presidents and hanging out and um she thinks it's the coolest thing and and says that she

[11:55]  wants to be a girl Bross going up and you know that she wants to teach and learn and be a leader but I think all those doors open up because of the fact that she's had the opportunity to step foot on that campus and um it's great to see them on it so I did have to break some hearts that I don't work at Hogwarts uh but it it's really cool to see them get excited that like this is a career and that this is a way that we serve in other ways um and help the Next Generation you know that that first generation college student is really important for today's conversation because one of the things you shared in a previous talk was that 65% I believe of the population that goes to Newman is that definition of a first generation college student right many of them are pel eligible low-income families so how does that kind of contribute to the lived experience that you've kind of been able to kind of I would say observe

[12:43]  from your dad's college experience and how you think about this new generation of students who kind of come into the space yeah I Newman's a really special place right we talk about social mobility and and having a population that 67% 65% on a given year first generation college students um the other part that's really neat about us is that there was actually an article in the Philadelphia inquire that came out at the start of the semester that talked about how um specifically institutions in the Philly area are s serving um less uh minority uh students less uh Latino um less black uh students coming into it and yet here at Newman that's not our experience um our our institution is actually growing in the populations we are more diverse each year and coming forward but as interesting to see this this place in

[13:31]  higher education and so I love the the space that you're talking about um about serving this population and I look back to my dad's experience and and he was a first generation by a true definition uh college student right who paid his way through uh using GI benefits um and going and and serving then in the uh Air Force very very long time uh thereafter and so you know there was even a piece of tension when I went to school about not understanding like what is a dean of students I'm pretty sure even I as a professional didn't know what Adena students was until I started working for Adena students right and so we have to remember when we're working with first generation families that this is new this is an experience it's something different for their families and that as much as we're orienting our students into spaces we need to orient our families right we need to look at the

[14:19]  holistic approach of our student I mean that's the heart of why student affairs was actually started was to look at not only what you learn in a classroom but the look of the development of the whole person I mean I think that ties back to like the 1930s when the like field really first just came about um and I think sometimes we forget um that this is a new experience and that folks don't know what FAFSA stands for or furpa or any of the other higher education alphabet soup um so I appreciate that at Newman we take to heart this ability to really transform the Next Generation to open doors uh for folks that are first generation college students for folks that you know may not have considered uh going to University uh or colleges because of the cost of it um and the impact of their family and really help provide an experience that sets them up for Success down the line

[15:07]  but we do that in a way that we walk with our students and their families uh along the way I talk about it at orientation when I'm welcoming new students I'm welcoming families too because they're all part of our community um and and that's a really beautiful thing that comes with working uh on a predominantly first generation college campus I think it's a huge advantage that you have the ability to instill what the higher education process looks like for someone who doesn't have any family reference to it right the predetermined expectation of what higher education is going to be the access the experience that comes from Mom and Dad often I think can be a little bit of a disadvantage but when you come into a university like Newman we have a fresh slate we can reestablish what everything looks like but also you

[15:53]  have so many other challenges that are involved with the current College demographic right higher educ equals often the perception of opportunities for debt which turns into family debt means more family involvement we also have students who are working to three jobs sometimes to be able to pay for school so what do you kind of think about the current landscape of higher education and I guess the the elbow grease that's necessary to kind of make it through this process for a lot of students today yeah I mean there is there's Rising costs you can look um you know for the public school sector you're seeing less and less uh State funding into to it and so that has to be offset some more and that's typically tuition um if you're not getting the donations from uh you know different sources to help fund that um and so you're right

[16:40]  that is absolutely something that has you know come out there's some great nonprofit groups that are advocating for um debt cancellation and and whatnot in regards to it because of the cost of higher education it's just jumped up so exponentially um but in addition to that you have this challenge of like what is the ROI um we have there's upcoming rolling talking about um a law that goes into place thinking of it it's going to come to me I promise it will come back to me um in regards to but institutions are going to have to start um posting salaries and graduation rates um of different Majors right as part of oh my gosh all right give me 30 seconds Keenan to Google this this is GNA like Escape me so the actual uh name of this law uh gainful employment is the law that um

[17:29]  this is so interesting to me because how are we supposed to make informed decisions about the path that we go through in higher education if we don't understand the Grassroots hard facts understanding of what is the graduation rate and then what is the anticipated salary that I'm going to be able to recruit this investment in this seems so fundamental but so obvious at the same time right and it all comes back to this idea of a pay transparency so um you know if I'm understanding you know what kind of came about of this when uh President Biden want to to cancel um some of the student loans during the pandemic one of the things that happened um was almost a negotiation of you know what is the value of higher education in regards to it um and if we're going to end up cancelling debt then is the degree and which they're getting um actually contributing to um their future

[18:20]  careers right are are they taking on more debt than they can really um pay off in the long run and so there is a ruling it was originally supposed to go uh in October to be posted where institutions were going to have to start publishing publicly not only the graduation rates in different Majors but they were going to have to actually start posting um what the average salary was and it's the gainful employment law so the gainful employment law was coming forward and saying that you have to post this information publicly um and so that it's that transparency but it also um the second part of the gainful employment is that there's an impact that the government may say that hey you are not gainfully employing folks in a particular major at an appropriate salary rate that should be determined by the government at a later date and if that's the case then you can't use

[19:07]  federal funds to have somebody in that major so imagine math for instance you g cannot gainfully employ somebody at what the federal government says is the appropriate salary at the appropriate graduation rate in it and so then you can no longer use federal funds to pay for folks to take math as a major or as a course right it it is this this gainful employment ruling now originally was supposed to come out in October and I think it's now been pushed back to July um and and so there's still nuances and higher education institutions are still trying to figure out what exactly um is going to be the requirement but it's going to be a game changer there's a benefit to it right because students can now make more informed choices when they're coming in but most students don't know what they want to do when they come in in fact I think it's the

[19:55]  average student changes their Majors up to three times um over the course of their career so if you're looking when you're coming in your first year and you're like I'm going to be a doctor right doctor lawyer engineer um but that's not actually what you end up being you end up falling in love with theology right that that's going to change the course of where you go from there right and and it's a hard thing so it's a benefit because you see this transparency but on the downside right for those of us in a liberal arts education who are really um helping to cultivate critical thinking in addition to giving folks those critical skills um that they can use in careers some of which don't even exist right now um you know things like this could have a really um interesting impact in higher education and what the future of it looks like um especially when you're

[20:42]  looking at more and more graduates or going into career fields that don't even exist when they start um in a higher education institution and and so gainful employment is just an interesting one down the line that we're going to see um that goes back to this idea of how much uh debt that folks take on and and what is a reasonable amount of student loans um really looking at you know lessening the intergenerational impact of it so I think it's going to be a really interesting place um to watch in higher education but you know gainful employment came out this summer then you have uh Tittle 9 regulations which are all over the place with injunctions and how institutions are moving forward and so you have a lot of different um federal government legal um aspects of higher education that that on top of a

[21:29]  declining uh birth rate and an enrollment rate of college ready students coming in it it's going to be an interesting climate moving forward with it um and I think the folks that can be Innovative and creative in those higher education spaces are really going to be the ones um that survive the upcoming years and also create a next generation of leaders that will create the same type of impact in their future careers and their future Pathways in their communities um so I I think it's definitely a period for us to be Innovative and where we're headed to man isn't it wild to think about how quickly things are moving right I mean like I think about artificial intelligence as a simple example dropped in 2022 available to the public now it seems like everybody's thinking about how they can get into the space but is there a higher

[22:17]  curriculum pathway or a higher education curriculum pathway that we can push people towards to be ready for the changing landscape of the marketplace it's almost like we're being challenged to move faster to be able to catch up with how quick quickly the market moves and changes and adapts but I think that also mirr Society right we're moving so quickly that sometimes we don't stop and take a pause right um we jump from one thing to the next things we're constantly moving the goals as we go um and we never take a pause to actually stop and reflect and look around the room we're just constantly moving right it happens with folks chronically being on the phone um I was with a group of students not too long ago um right and we're just waiting for for a speaker to come in and everybody pulls out their phone and jumps on their phone in that moment and it it's that like not using those soft skills of that networking in that space or even just having a moment

[23:04]  to breathe or connect with each other in regards to it I mean we're seeing the same thing in higher education it's moving so rapidly um because there's so many different pressures on the environment and and there's nothing new for higher education it's the same thing in all other different fields across the board um but we have this culture of busyness and rapidly changing environments that you know sometimes we just need to take a moment pause and be like all right what is what is at the heart where are we actually going with this um I have a wonderful faculty member at one point in time that said radical to be radical means to get to the root and so at some point in time we actually need to get to the root and the Heart of what is higher education right what is the purpose do we believe it is preparing folks in their future careers and that it's about you know collecting

[23:51]  as many skills and attributes as you get or do we think it's about critically thinking right and helping folks you know re evaluate and look at things through a different lens a critical lens moving forward right um do we think it's some sort of hybrid in between but at some point in time we need to get to the root of what we're doing um in order to move forward I was listening to an amazing podcast a couple weeks ago I might have brought this up in our previous conversation so excuse me if I'm repeating myself I guess if we're recording this then this is the first time I'm saying this um so former employee like a number 20s something at Facebook right on a podcast with Joe Rogan and we're talking about what the future of Education looks like and this guy says you know very transparently in the future artificial intelligence is going to take a ton off of our plate even meaning how we do tasks how we get

[24:39]  things done XYZ so the future of higher education and teaching in general is going to be so valuable because we're going to teach kids how to think about the problems that they're trying to tackle rather than how they'll get them done think creatively about the problem and so I think that we're at a really interesting clipping point in Society where like this technolog is progressing so quickly we don't even know what's going to be the current status in the next 5 years of how integrated artificial intelligence is going to be into our life so the role of higher education helps us think critically about these problems that we're facing that seems like uh aure man's bet for the valuable skill sets that we're going to need to develop in the future in order to be the leaders of the future like you're talking about yeah I I absolutely think you're correct you know

[25:25]  having finished my dissertation right about two years ago at this point in time right AI was just chat gbt was just coming onto it right and so I'm so grateful in some ways that AI wasn't there because I I like the writing is mine 110% in that but since then and that's such a short period of time now I'm seeing tools coming into higher education where there's AI chat Bots where you know you can drop all the syllabus um for your institution across the border or link it up into a platform like Canvas OR Blackboard or D2 and so a student can literally text a question to an AI chat bot and say hey what is my Spanish homework do and get a response right there and and so I think you're right I think right with moving very quickly I think technology scares Folks at some point in time um it's been

[26:13]  interesting to watch in higher education that folks have like started being like AI you can't use it and writing policies um for it and then they walked it back to be like wait what if this is the starting point and then we actually allow folks to then critically think on top of it um but it is moving really quickly and I think we need to have some honest conversations about how this tool can really shape moving forward so that we use our human abilities to be those critical thinking to think about new um going on it right because AI is going to pull from what is already known but only we can take advantage of these little moments and think about what will be new um we talk a lot about how you know higher education is a space of knowledge creation and I I think even in the AI space um it's R for opportunities for us

[27:01]  to kind of explore it even more in the future and we have to be willing to be uncomfortable in the unknown um as we're looking ahead for it I definitely think there's a space for AI in there Flex that muscle of curiosity right because it's so human to react to a moment in in time where it's like the internet's cominging out that's the end of the world it's like the Farm's coming or the tractor coming out that's the end of farming right we've made this mistake time and time again and I hope that we are able to approach this new technology with the lens of curiosity that helps us lean into the mindset exactly like what you're talking about I mean let's not uh make Y2K a thing again right when we're looking at do you remember right when we thought you know the computers in the world was going to break at you know 12:01 um just because nobody thought to put 2,000 as a possible year in a computer system right

[27:49]  we're navigating AI like I you know just because it's new does not mean it's y 2K here's a here's a question so I know that you're incredibly passionate about transformative leadership and what these next generation of leaders are going to have to be incredibly skilled at to navigate this uncertain future what's kind of the emphasis of how leadership has changed from your perspective and what we need to start letting our next Generation know about before they end up falling into this leadership trap that it seems like we're headed towards I think because the world moves so quickly we're very quick to jump in and try and solve a problem um and so I think uh one of the pieces that stands out the most uh for me is you know the ability to listen and I think we're seeing um some definite challenges coming after the pandemic where folks were so reliant on digital

[28:37]  communication um that it's hard for them to start a conversation um and go back and forth um you know even in being uh the political climate that we're in right now instead of um having you know civil discourse and understanding that we don't have to be right um to be heard um I think leaders really need to come into that space and be willing to listen to observe um to understand that there may not always be a right reason or what was right yesterday may not be right tomorrow um and understanding those different changing demographics with it and so I think we're seeing more and more leaders that need to be agile and adaptable with it but I think we need to make sure that we also rely on each other um I think that's really what helps moves us forward is is that

[29:24]  ability to talk out things and collaborate and lean on each other's strength along the way um but we need to give ourselves space and we need to be willing to have conversation um and let go of who's going to be right in the moment and really just move forward to what is going to be the best thing for our space and whatever that domain is going to be my last guest on the podcast brought up an amazing concept he said there's a difference between difference and division we are okay with having difference because that is healthy different perspectives different ideas gives us the opportunity to understand division is casting somebody else's idea aside as if it has no value and it's Us Versus Them AKA othering people that was a really unique perspective to me because we are so good at othering

[30:12]  people rather than creating and understanding the differences that we have about a topic or our own perspective which is really interesting to me what do you think about that different or the the concept of differences versus division yeah no I I think your spot on um and it's a beautiful Point um that your last guest uh made you know I I think it's so easy to look at what is different in that space but look at it from a lens of that you know there is this huge gap between your different experience and mine and forgetting any similarities that may come forward with it um you know I think there's also that place of like exploration and and um when you don't know like not being okay with being in that space that you may not always know

[31:00]  or that your lived experience could be really different um you know I I spent three years deep in the heart of researching what is actually Faith um you know I I claim that faith is uh in in my research you know it's really our innate desire and purpose to understand who we are and what we're made made to contribute in the world and for some folks religion ties into some folks believe in more like spirituality and connection but it all goes back to this idea of like what are your lived experiences and how do you make meaning of them and so I think going back to this idea of differences and Division I think we've oftentimes forget that your lived experience is your lived experience um and it doesn't have to be the same as mine we don't need to kind of take into consideration um and and worryed about

[31:48]  who's right and who's wrong because it's your lived experience um and there's something to that and I think if we're not willing to kind of sit there and listen and put ourselves in the shoes of other and and understand or seek out understanding then we're going to keep you know making this division wider and wider and wider as we go and um you know I think as a society at some point in time we need to remember the like humanity and and the Dignity of all people and and you know that I may not know you and your whole story but you know I I can still connect with you on a different level and and I can still be present and with you in that moment this is a an incredibly relevant convers because it seems like the perfect antidote to the problems that we experience on social media right when you're talking about you guys had a

[32:36]  little bit of a gap everybody pulls out their phones and starts going into the space of being alone together AKA everybody's on their device although we're in an environment with other people where we could easily start conversations I think that there's a there's an undertone in a current if you will of when we're on these social platforms we have so much reinforcement that comes from the likes the shares the engagement right and the likes shares and engagement of specific behavior often reinforces the fact that we feel like we need to do those things in order to get the acknowledgement on those platforms which in itself reinforces us being like someone else but like you're talking about the lived experience that people have makes them unique and that is often the thing that stands out against a a sea of copy and paste personalities and it's just really scary

[33:23]  to me to think about how the the macro Behavior people continues to be more and more alike when we need people to be more and more different and that difference is where the beauty of your individual experience in life comes out yeah and I mean there's research out there that shows that we saw significant uh decline in mental health with young people beginning in 2014 which just happens to be the first time where smartphones the iPhone became more popular than flip fls um and it's because folks often times forget that people post what they want you to see on social media that's not the whole essence of their being right and so you know I'm I'm not necessarily sitting there posting you know when I'm making breakfast at first thing in the morning

[34:11]  right I mean some people do but you know you're not posting every moment of your life in fact oftentimes people only are posting the good moments um and and then it makes this culture and this thought that you know it's not okay to have moments of low it's not uh okay to have periods where you feel anxious just because you're anxious does not mean you have anxiety right just because you're uncomfortable in a situation doesn't mean that it's not okay but when we're only sharing what we want folks to see and then that's becoming normalized and you're seeing you know all these people are traveling and all these people are are you know doing these great and wonderful things and everything is awesome um I think of the Lego movie right everything's awesome and you're not actually seeing the journey right and the journey is the core of that story um of who we are and what those

[34:59]  lived experiences are and and I think we have to create space where we remind ourselves and remind each other um that there's more to what life is on social media but yeah it's interesting that research actually goes back to when uh smartphones took a a a hit and went higher um than you know our flip phones back in the day or your little Sidekicks or whatever they were um and it's tied back to the fact that we are constantly connected and looking on on social media and we're not seeing the whole story we're just seeing a snapshot of what's going on in somebody else's life we live in a society that we're just playing keeping up with the Joneses and social media is another way in which we're doing it and the difference is is you know me personally I'm not going to make any assumptions about your age I was born in 1990 so like I went through school in a community where the only sense of comparison that I had was to

[35:46]  the kids and people in my community what happened when social media and everything dropped is we instantly became I'm going to say maybe around 2012 2013 when the algorithm started changed 14 is like what you said we became a global Society we started seeing people who had businesses in Europe and everybody living in Dubai and people going on jet setting trips to Asia and all this different type of stuff and so naturally our brains can't handle that sense of global Community we like I want to say that the number if you look into the study says that like human connectivity and relationships start to diminish on a group that's bigger than 150 but if you think about how many followers and things you have on social media right those numbers are much larger than that and so it's really interesting I know that I W I looked at

[36:32]  a study at one time and it was in 2012 9% of girls had major depressive episodes in 2023 31% of girls had major depressive episodes the correlation directly ties to social media and how integrated it's been into our lives so very scary yeah you know I was talking earlier this semester in class like one of the things that we've seen higher education navigate over the last 20 years is a rising Mental Health crisis right um and folks will come back and they'll challenge it and say that well we talk about mental health more and so we're just seeing it more because folks are talking about mental health more um but there is exactly like you said more and more U major mental health issues that are coming to fruition um over the years it and the statistics are staggering when you look across higher education institutions folks that need greater numbers of services um you know

[37:21]  we're also seeing institutions needing to provide 247 Services um so I love that you know not only do we have a stand um Counseling Center and Student Health Center on our campus but we also provide 247 365 telea Health Services for both mental health and medical for students because we know that it's going to be 2 am in the middle of the night when a student you know has a period of stress right um because they're up studying or or something happens right um but that goes back to this trend that we've seen over the last 20 years of more and more mental health concerns coming forward and and higher education institutions are are not unique we need to be equipped to navigate those um but we also want to make sure that we help students develop strategies long after they graduate right because it's great that we have all these Services now right but what happens the second you cross that stage what's the support

[38:09]  that's going to be in place and so we need to start developing more protective strategies around mental health and some of it's having some real intentional conversations about social media and its use no I completely agree I want to I want to I don't normally do this on the podcast but I want to create like a free section here at the end Sarah what should we be talking about that maybe we haven't talked about really interested in kind of like what are some of the Hot Topic button burning items that are kind of on the front of your mind these days especially with your unique perspective and such an impactful organization now you're making me be like oh let me pull out the PowerPoint that I had a couple weeks ago after I just said let's not be like the person that has the PowerPoint um I mean if we're looking ahead in higher education right um if we're looking in just our world um I I think you were just talking about you

[38:57]  know looking at this diversity and not being fully equipped um to navigate that so I I think for me um we use a language right in in Catholic higher education the Catholic faith talking about like the universal family right um and so I think we need to be willing to enter into those spaces because we do have this beautiful ability now to engage with folks across the world at any given moment in time um but I think we need to also be willing and and able to um acknowledge those spaces and the different needs that folks bring into them um and and again like we talking about before creating those lived experiences so that's something that's on the you know top of my head we definitely have mental health concerns that are coming in there um the rising cost of higher education is in there um I think we have some unique um elements

[39:47]  if I was to go back in time I love the fact that I um did this beautiful dissertation and I've a doctorate and talking about faith and higher education Administration all this great um but I think there's a need more and more for educators to have law backgrounds and legal backgrounds um based upon some of the needs and the things that are happening um in the sector um I think just even as a society we're a highly litigious Society especially in the United States um and so you know we have folks that are coming through the field and more and more laws are coming into uh the space which are great and they offer a lot of transparency um but you need to be able to read legal jargon um to be able to nav navigate those spaces a bit more um and I think it changes the essence of what this position um and what you know the work that I do was

[40:35]  originally right student affairs was about you know supporting students and navigating and and developing the whole person and looking at how do you develop faith and you know how do you identify uh and develop your different identities and and now we're sitting here you know did we post the the clear compliance statistics and time for the federal government and you know what's the difference between the 2020 and the 2020 before uh Title 9 regulations that are coming out you know what is an injunction and and what does that mean and where do we navigate it and you know that just means it's a changing landscape and the nature of her field is different so I mean I definitely there think there's some interestingness in that that legal space I also think we need to like get comfortable being uncomfortable right my work right now I remember early in my career my very first research project I did I was still

[41:22]  in uh work on my masters in grad school I was talking about the seven Millennial mishaps since you're talking about being born in 90 I'm a proud 80s baby right I'm going to keep my side part and my skinny jeans as long as I can right but you know at that time I was looking at you know the tension between Gen X and Boomers and Millennials and and that and now we have you know gen Z coming into the fruition well guess what genen Alpha is right behind it and so if we get once we get comfortable working with Gen Z we need to remember that there's another generation behind it um and so you know we just need to keep on our toes and be be comfortable being uncomfortable and being willing to learn and adapt in those spaces um yeah that's a that's a great question and a free-for-all and and it's interesting I did a I made a joke in

[42:09]  class I made a letterman top 10 list of all the things that have changed in higher education over the last 20 years and then I realized that um Letterman wasn't on the air for most the people in the class oh my God there's like two folks that uh knew the reference and I was like okay all right here we go uh right so generational references like I probably need to stop referencing uh Ferris Beer's day off um whenever I'm like ber and people are like I I don't get it uh where is this ber kid at who are you talking about you the last name what are we looking for um yeah so it's interesting you know we we need to look ahead and we need to look U behind one of the things that came up I was uh talking yesterday about um assessment in

[42:57]  Affairs and this goes back to this idea you started at the top talking about return on investment right and so it was really interesting to me looking at like how did assessment kind of get lumped in to student affairs and as I was looking at this journey over the period of time from the 1930s where you know we saw this first call for like hey we need to like ensure that what we're telling people we're doing we're actually doing so an assessment is important to you know now we're seeing a lot of co-curricular language looking at how we're measuring learning and and whatnot even curriculums within student affairs and there's a whole Institute for the curricular approach that looks at exactly that you know what are curriculums outside of the classroom setting and higher education uh but the interesting part about it is over this period of time since the 1930s to now so almost a hundred years um we've had like

[43:47]  three or four Cycles where we've went back to be like the purpose of higher education is critical thinking and then it's no we have to and most of the time it comes from the government being like no we have to actually uh demonstrate the return on investment are you actually doing what you're saying you know there's period of times when we saw the increase of Grants coming in uh federal grants I think it was in the you know 1970s we really saw an increase with it um and so right you have to demonstrate with a grant you know the money that I'm getting in this case from the federal government this is what I'm actually doing right the goal is being matched um but we're in that same world right now where folks are saying what's the return on an investment and so at some point in time we have to realize that history does repeat itself um and so as much as I joke that pop culture references may not hit the same way that

[44:35]  it once did the fact of the matter is we have this beautiful history behind us um and so the challenge that we're coming up right now and this change in enrollment and and the decline it existed in the 19 you know coming out of Vietnam right we saw it we saw it coming out of World War II this is not the first time that we've seen a decline in it and so this is a great moment to kind of look back and see what we've learned um over the last period of time take our you know Letterman top 10 list and and kind of go down that road but also look ahead about you know what did we learn during that period of time and how can we adapt and pivot uh and utilize that to grow and be more Innovative in the future well I know with leaders like you leading the way we are going to have those different perspectives you know but it's very important to kind of emphasize I'm going to double click on that history does repeat itself and it's so human to not look backwards and to

[45:24]  only look forwards and I think some of the great examples that we've seen in the past are just repeating themselves now so you know Sarah the last thing that we do here on the podcast is we put the plane down right to land it is we have a question that came from our previous guest the previous guest wants to know Sarah what is the number one book that you enjoyed as a child and find yourself coming back to as an adult o good questions I am an Avid Reader um probably read like 2,000 pages into the last week in a in a book series um right so I'm trying to think if there was a book that I went back to I I mean I I joked about my Harry Potter reference I will say that that is a story that I've

[46:11]  come back to a couple times but now it's fun to come back to it with my child um and watch her go through it and like read it and pick up on different things that I never saw the first time around um but I think actually um if I was to look back at some of the books um that I read early on I have this distinct uh memory in a high school English class um reading uh Hamlet actually and at the time I'm a city school kid right um and so I props to Innovative teachers um and getting us through Hamlet we were told that at the end of it we could watch an episode of The Simpsons that talked about Hamlet so that was like the mo ation uh to get through reading this

[46:59]  Shakespearean play and and and looking through it and I think there's so many interesting dynamics of conflict that come up in that story um and you know how folks end up discussing it um you know different nuances with it and then the Poetry that comes within the writing um that while I I have went through in red Hamlet probably once or twice since then um I would say that story actually has been thread and shows up a lot in contemporary literature um and so going back to this theme that we have going that like history repeats itself um you know Hamlet is a great example of of a story that keeps getting retold over and over again with just a little bit of a different spin along the way um but it's something that stands out to me and then

[47:46]  for fun I think you know that ability to Fantasy and get lost I guess technically Harry Potter is education right he to go to Hogwarts so maybe that sticks with me long long after so that's a great question wow I was like I'm trying to think of like books that I've read multiple times and what came from it I was like oh okay very interesting um well that's an amazing answer Sarah you know I just want to say from the bottom of my heart thank you so much for being the definition of heart and hustle you know you give me so much confidence in a space that's gotten a lot of flak higher education over the last years right I'm glad to see that we have a new generation of leaders who are thinking about the important topics and pouring into the next generation of great leaders we're going to impact our communities as well so Sarah Williamson thank you for coming on the show really appreciate it