Why Jaime Klein Says "Fractional Work Makes Us Whole"—And How It's Changing HR Forever

[0:00]  He was talking about in a talent management department they do this thing called succession planning right you look at 100 employees you think who could be the one who could be the one that could be our new chief marketing officer right and you run a succession plan for that coveted chief marketing officer and what do you do to prepare for this meeting as the HR leader you look at um these 100 employees performance review data you might look at um like MyersBriggs or DIS or some type of like work style assessment that they've done over the years each of these data sources have thousands of pages of documents and you might need an analyst from the tech department to kind of aggregate this information. So I don't know data analysts about 250 probably $250,000 a year I think. Um and so what I've seen done and what I and I were talking about is the data that

[0:48]  could take days and days weeks to get you could have in minutes by having a system ready that can take these very disperate different formats. It's like merging something from like a PDF and Excel, right? It's like you can't do it. You're doing screenshots and it's that's it. It's taking the data and bringing it together and then just creating a rough framework to make sense so you have a running start for that meeting. That's a quick example we were just talking about earlier. Yeah. So, there's a lot of opportunity for sure.

[1:31]  So guys, welcome back to another episode of the Heart and Hustle podcast. I've got Jamie Klein here with me today. Now, this is going to be an amazing story because we're going to talk about the current status of human resources. Right, you see in the sign behind her if you're watching on YouTube, inspire human resources. Jamie started this business out of a personal experience and has been dominating the world of HR ever since. So Jamie, let's talk a little bit about your story and your heart and hustle. What was the catalyst that kind of pushed you to be the entrepreneur, the founder of Inspire?

[2:00]  Well, I appreciate it and I just was so looking forward to our time together. So, thanks for having me. I um have always been in HR. I've been in HR since I started working and uh have been blessed to work at places you might know of, including American Express. And the doctor said to my husband and I, "I surprised you with twins." And he had just gotten into business school at night at NYU, was going to work during the day, and I was going to work. And then life happens. Um, we plan God laughs. Our twins, who are now 20 and healthy, they came early and had some health hiccups. So, I needed to be laser focused on them hitting their potential.

[2:32]  And I had this idea to do this crazy thing in Q4 of06. I was like, what if I work from home part-time around their schedule and no one was kind of doing it back then? So, I thought, you know, there was this company called Net Jets and there were, you know, time shares for condos. I was like, what if we do this thing called like fractional HR?

[2:50]  And I swear to God if someone else was offering it, I would have just worked for them. But no one was doing it and we were kind of, as far as I know, one of the first movers. And I'm always really authentic about my story because I think that there are a lot of badass people out there who are thinking of starting their own company. And um I'm on panels and people will say, "Hey, why did you start your company?" And you know, all the panelists will say, "Well, given the confluence of factors in the market and I'm like, look, no one's crazy enough to do this unless something really um big happens." So, I'm really honest about my big what happened with our kids who are now, you know, in college and crushing it because I think it just being authentic helps other people kind of be brave to do the same thing. So, that's my that's my why. But what I am is missiondriven about all the 15 plus folks for work that work for us. I

[3:38]  always say fractional work makes us whole and them working fractionally lets them show up for whatever they've got. Raising kids, we've got um breast cancer survivors doing, you know, fundraising. We've got someone who just dropped their third record. She sounds like Barbara Streryand and I want them to, you know, live their big juicy lives too while they're crushing it, doing beautiful work. So that's my backstory. So this I had a another guest on another podcast that I host with one of my really good friends, Dante. And um we were talking to a very successful founder, right? and he was talking about one of the biggest things that we misconrue today in the world of business is a lot of negativity if you will gets thrown at the idea of like a lifestyle entrepreneur or a lifestyle founder and when I was thinking about our upcoming conversation I was like Jaime's the perfect example of what designing a business around your lifestyle can do for you but also your

[4:27]  team as well so when you think about fractional right what did that mean to you in the early days and how has that kind of terminology evolved I guess sure I mean straight up what it truly meant was having two preey twins crawling trying to crawl like around our living room with me having a desk. It wasn't really even a desk. It was legit. It was literally more of a small table that had been in the trash area of our apartment building. I was like, "This will make a great desk. I wish I still had it."

[4:53]  Anyway, so this desk/t was in the corner of the room, you know, with like the Elmo Dawn, like the Thomas the Train stuff. And um and it looked like for real it looked like me meeting with a lot of entrepreneurs in ' 06 figuring out how to do this. It looked like me setting up shop Gen 1 of07 and sending an email to like I don't know like my roommate my roommate's parents from college like anyone I had ever met. And I was like, "Hey, I've hung my shingle.

[5:20]  If you know anyone who wants help with um to hire, train, and retain talent, I'm available." And what it really looked like was when they were um with a babysitter or doing whatever kids do. Um I would I would crush it. And what I want you to know is again Darren was at um NYU at night getting his um getting his MBA. So I would get online I don't know like 700 p.m. And I swear to God it was like all these female entrepreneurs were all so busy and between 7 and 12 women just were getting things done back in 07. companies hadn't figured out quite yet how to harness our superpowers working um from home part-time but and then I could go on there I was at the playground like pushing swings and talking to other parents and I was like hey what did you used to do like oh yeah

[6:08]  I used to run the trading desk at JP Morgan oh yeah I used to you know design ties for J Crew and I was kind of like what are we all doing here like we love our kids but we have these other parts of ourselves that we haven't used so I had this idea to just kind of work fractionally and so what that meant was our first client was a high- growth venture-backed company who needed someone 20 hours a week to do HR and then a you know Fortune 100 company found out that um I was available and they brought me in for a parental leave.

[6:35]  We've done 31 parental leaves at that company and then we got more requests than I could do with the availability I had. So I started recruiting some of these people that I'd meet in the playground who were in the HR space and then I did my masters at Colombia and there were a bunch of Colombia masters program alum folks that I knew or colleagues from AMX and so we've recruited and everyone really on the team has either been through you know um uh someone I've worked with someone who's been you know in my ecosystem then people that we recruited in our experts then their network so everyone has really come through that personal recommendation except for maybe probably This is our 19th year. Probably five people have been without that personal endorsement. And that, you know, I I've been at this a long time. We're only as good as our last project. I'm always

[7:21]  humbled every single time we launch. So um but yeah, that is what fractional looked like. It was working, you know, kind of like being a workaholic around the hours that worked for um for raising our kids. Yeah, that's really it. The progression of this is so beautiful to me because we're talking about you being able to show up as your best self when you had the ability to do so. And that didn't mean that you were turning a part of yourself off, but you're going to show up as a complete badass, very transparently, get this work done. Oh, yeah. And do exactly what people are asking for. Were there any hesitencies in those early days about the whole fractional element? Right. What was that like? Totally. I feel like I need to have a drink before I even answer this question. So, I remember standing in a conference room like this big mahogany like 16 big cushy seats around a big table in this boardroom. And I was saying to this

[8:08]  team, and I'll be available 20 hours a week. This is like like Feb of07. I'll be available, you know, you know, between one and five every day. There is a lack of the lived experience of having to um show up knowing you're from a marginalized group and having to kind of find that seat at the table in the big mahogany boardroom and also sometimes flex and do all sorts of calisthenics to to hit the goals that you want. So anyway, it happened to be a room of that avatar of people and they literally said, "There's no way. Absolutely. This like what are you talking about?" And I remember my face turning crimson red and me just saying, "Give me a shot." I didn't know what else to say. So, so that so yes, the quick answer is yes.

[8:54]  There were a lot of folks who are like, "I don't get it." And I once heard someone say it's like, I mean, this is dating. was like I heard someone at a conference in ' 07 say like if you hire Michael Jordan like work like 20 hours a week it's you still will get like 300% of a average player. So I just tried to show up that way and then there were articles that would show up in like the times and the journal talking about this concept of what they then called you know women working part-time in really cerebral roles. And I had a section of our original website that was called um HR trends and I would post those articles there so I could just give some credibility to just the concept um as it arose and clients you know they had

[9:41]  heard of fractional tech firms you like help desk firms or fractional law firms um but I didn't know anyone who was doing HR and HR tends to be kind of a not so exciting kind of you know cost center group if you will. So I just I don't know that you know high growth companies um large companies had kind of thought yet that this was needed but um it just really but yeah so that is what intram looked like and I'll share with you I was at a great um holiday party back in December of this group that I love called troop HR and um I feel like half the people there were talking about how they either are hiring fractional workers or they themselves are fractional workers and I swear to God I just had this moment where like I don't really drink but I just like sat back

[10:27]  and like had a drink of my seltzer with lemon and I was like this is so fun. I feel like I was with my people and it just felt great. There's even a group now called fractional people people and it's like a newsletter that goes out. So it just feels it feels great that um we can just do the work and not have to explain the ROI. Yeah. Yeah. I mean it's just it's an amazing because over the last years, right, especially because of the pandemic, I mean you started long before this, right? But leaders now have a different perspective about what their teams look like, right? Right? I mean, me personally at my company, Francis, we leverage like fractional resources from across the globe. And we started back in 2014, right? We thought that it was never going to be possible to build a business with resources that were not in our building every single day. But now leaders think about that completely different. So, how have you kind of thinking about with the with your guys's

[11:14]  expertise, right, in fractional leadership? What are some of the current challenges, right, that many organizations are facing when it comes to HR? We've seen so much turbulence in the marketplace and jobs and everything like that. So, what are some of your trends that you're kind of macro identifying? Plus, one on what you said about just the whole um the tapestry of the way that work gets done, it looks so different. And I think that the most modern organizations, they've decided we're always going to have a permanent core group. And then around the edges, we're going to have these folks that we dial up and dial down and we don't need to carry um the salary and the benefits.

[11:47]  And that way we can stay agile and sustainable as a company and also import amazing talent for that key project. You might not need that expert forever, but boy did you need them for a year. So um yes to that. Okay. Big trends. So if we had spoke um last I don't know let's say 150 days ago I'd probably have a different answer than what I'm going to give as a top trend. But in the last 100 days here in the US the new administration's executive orders and their opinion around DEI being woven into the way that companies measure performance of um recruiting and retaining top talent. um has been I'll use the word distracting. So our

[12:36]  ecosystem has spent a tremendous amount of time, money, resources, particularly since the summer of 2020 that overdue racial reckoning. They've spent a lot of energy setting up these programs to help people understand their own blind spots and make sure that folks from traditionally marginalized groups have the barriers taken down so they can get that seat at the table because boy do we need diversity at the top of the house of every industry to like just be innovative. And now for real a client said to me recently um like as an example of how distracted people are. So big picture, people very much want to keep up all these great programs that help advance, help import and retain people from diverse lived experiences and they are really concerned about what those programs are called and if they

[13:25]  are um you know if there are any metrics associated with them that the way that the government for example has been told to take a look at those things are nervous that down the road they could be in trouble. They're not a government contractor. they're a small company, public company, but they want to get in front of it. So, for example, a client said to me, we were talking about really important issue. She said, um, I am distracted today. I'm about to sign our annual healthcare benefit renewal. We and should we offer um gender affirming care and I'm nervous to put my signature on that document because who knows what's ahead. What if another 100 days I could personally get sued for that or another organization? Anyway, I could give you lots of examples. Um, high potential programs. It used to be for women to be in, you know, managing director tracks at a big four firm. They just stopped to they just don't offer

[14:12]  that program as of February. So I know a team that had like stood up that program and they don't offer it. Companies are thinking should we call our department not DEI but transparency, fairness, equity. So it's that kind of stuff. So that's a trend. At the at the core, I hosted a salon uh we do a quarter um a monthly gathering of folks in very senior leadership roles to talk about the things keeping them up at night and a recent conversation was around how do we still do the great work but not um put the company at risk like really threading that needle. It's powerful conversation to be part of and everyone wants to keep those initiatives going.

[14:47]  So so figuring out how to create these transparent cultures um fair um etc. that that's one trend and who would have thought it would have been such a focus because anyway two AI everyone and their brothers figuring out how to um again insulate their company from risk but utilize the force of AI to reimagine the way that data and information flows through the organization. So a lot of our clients have us looking at people and process. We're always looking to, you know, assess how do we make your return department better and figuring out how to really elegantly safely weave in machine learning bots, whatever is needed um to the whole employee experience so that we can create um uh cost efficiencies, team effectiveness, and I just feel like no one's going to lose their job because of AI, but people

[15:35]  who don't know how to use AI could be at risk, right? So, let's give you that time back to do more strategic work. Um the other thing is return to the office. I speak to everyone. No one has figured that one out. And anybody who tells you that they figured out they're not telling you their truth. Yeah. Um so you know there are a couple of kind of bellweather companies um Chase um Goldman Sachs they're like in finance as an example of a sector. They're kind of the market leader and then a lot of organizations really look to them for guidance. Um we're seeing a lot of organizations ask people to very much be back on site. So that's a huge thing that folks are trying to figure out. And I just always say, you know, we whatever we do, we need to create moments that matter. People are coming in. You can't be sitting next to somebody. They're on Zoom. You're on Zoom. Like it just it just is not as effective. Um but I

[16:23]  think, you know, that was a huge shift that happened so fast. But we don't realize that typically these trends take decades of human experience to kind of, you know, um indoctrinate the way that we work. And that all happened so fast. And I think we're still figuring out what it means now in a fiveyear after, you know, we're in a post post pandemic moment. We're five years out. So, so DEI, AI, and return to office, also called RTO. So, I'm like acronym city with DEI, AI, and RTO. But those three things, um, there are others, but those are the top three. And it's only, you know, it's only the beginning of Q2. Who knows what's next?

[17:03]  Yeah. If the Heart and Hustle podcast has ever sparked any idea or made you dig differently, do us a favor. Make sure you guys share this, post it on LinkedIn, or even text that nonprofit friend that you just have. Whatever works. This is what keeps the conversation going and allows us to just grow this community together. Seriously, we appreciate you.

[17:26]  I'm I'm so interested um in this DEI conversation, right? So we put in so much con concentrated and intentional effort into building systems and processes that help people feel recognized at the end of the day for their unique attributes. Right? We're really talking about inclusion, right? And being able to include everybody in their unique experiences. Y how do you kind of navigate these conversations with leaders who decided to at one point in time shutter a program? Like you said, we had a team who worked on a complete program and now it's been shuttered. So like how does that maybe change your perspect your perception of that organization leader does it how do you then reenter yourself to be the supportive partner who can help them navigate this uncertain future. So I talk a lot about self-care for HR leaders. My sister's a vet that is a industry that has a lot of turnover

[18:15]  um and actually health issues among vets because they put down animals. It's really really stressful. I cannot compare to what she does during the day. Like I talk a lot recently, the last four years about self-care for HR because we're always holding space for um as a sacred like as a very um confidential um sounding board for organizations and sometimes the things that they say are intense. So, for starters, I just think anyone anyone on earth, but HR, because we're talking about should up self-care so that you can like get that deep breath as a client says, um, we're just managing the program that, um, we hired a whole team to do. And for real, I would love for a leader to get up on the town hall stage and say this. Um, as you know, we're just working and living and parenting in

[19:05]  very unique times. In order to keep our company sustainable, we're going to be making some changes to ensure that we can be a modern organization to meet this moment. We care about you deeply as human. You might hear some rebranding. Just know we're still leading with heart. Like I would I would love I would love for but instead this is what I've heard organizations getting up and say um we're bringing in our new intern class and um as you know the key metric for that is always merit. And everyone's thinking, but wait a second. In last year's town hall, you talked about how the intern class had to have a diversity of lived experience. We never talked about merit. Like people aren't they're adults. They understand that organizations have very quickly changed their script. And so how do I do what I'm trying to coach leaders to do is be as authentic as they feel comfortable doing. But don't try to spin it so that

[19:54]  everyone forgets that we made them go into mandatory training to how to conduct a interview without bias. Made them go into mandatory training to understand your blind. It's like we did all that stuff, especially the last um patch of years. Um and so that I don't love when um leadership teams pretend that they all suddenly got amnesia because then it really discounts the beautiful work and the heartfelt messages that came out. So um so how do I handle I think one just every industry but because we're talking about HR do a lot of self-care to steady yourself, yoga, breathing, whatever your thing is. Um um and then also just make sure that you I don't know I think with HR you like thread the needle. You have to insulate the company from risk and also create like this best place to work experience. But when you see these

[20:41]  programs dismantled it makes me feel that they're like people are doing what's on trend. So like the dismantling of the program for example that was um maybe 53 days after the um inauguration and the new administration started. So now we're like a hundred plus days out. And I hear people more say, "We used to call it the high potential program for female attorneys and now we're just going to call it the high potential program." And I'm like, "Good way to not dismantle it. Just rebrand it and still very much look to help people rise." But let's be honest, the reason that a lot of these these systems were put in place at organizations and in our country was because unfortunately there's systemic racism in the US and it's built into our system. So there is all these barriers to entry just to get to the right elementary school where you can get the

[21:28]  great after school program that teaches you to be a girl that codes and then then you have to get in the door for the interview and maybe you're from a family where the first generation and generational wealth wasn't passed on. Well, guess what? Someone's going to open that door for you and then you're ready when you get in the door. Someone at the table better say, "I've staged a seat for you because it is really lonely stepping into these mahogany walled boardrooms and being the only fill in the blank." So, it's the whole like recruiting and belonging. So, these programs were in place for a reason. And um and I just I want everyone to thrive, but we need to make sure that, you know, we're all um we're just trying to do our best as humans to create those equal playing fields. Um I could go on for a long time, but those are like the top line I just love the element that we're talking about consistency here, right?

[22:15]  Because us as people, as human beings at the end of the day, need to recognize that it when we hide changes, right, or challenging times from our employees, naturally, we can see through that stuff like a smoke screen. And so, it's like we just want you to be authentic about what's happening in this current moment and talk to us about how we're going to transition to a better place. Because I think it's natural and is human innate for us to be able to understand that something is up. But when our organizations say now the incoming intern class is all based on merit, it's like hold on, I'm not a child. I do remember what we said here from a messaging perspective. So why are we not being consistent at the top? And how can we expect our team members to now be consistent in their messaging as well?

[22:54]  And to trust there's like these, you know, we spend more time working than we do with family and friends in the US, right? So if you're going to spend this much time at work, I think it's so important to trust leadership. We had um neighbors over last night um for dinner. They're from Bolaris and they're um or Bellarus, excuse me. They're from Barus.

[23:10]  And at dinner, my girlfriend Julia said, um, we have three years parental leave coverage in Bellarus. And I was like, oh my god, we get three months. But what she did say in the Beller in the Bellarus sometimes, um, companies aren't running to hire newlywed 26 year old females because they know that they have that three-year parental leave coming up. So, you know, not every other country outside the US has it has it solved. I think there's so much to work work to do globally, but I do think that um people really have long-term memories and they very much remember how you know it's like a relationship. You remember most sometimes how people treat you in tough times even a little bit more than when when you know the economy is strong and

[23:57]  everyone has a role and all that stuff. So I think you have to just treat people um as adults and try to try to just garner as much trust as you possibly can. Yeah. And I think we really need a call for great leadership today as well, Jamie. You know what I mean? Because at the end of the day, being a leader in good times is easy, but being a true leader when times are tough is what actually separates the cream of the crop. You know what I mean? And it's um uh um uh someone that I admire so much says, you know, we need leadership with a capital L, right? We need leadership really, like you said, for these times.

[24:28]  And I think do you remember at the beginning of the pandemic really strong leaders would do things like say how are you really really really doing right and they would kind of stop and they'd say like how are things going at home? I know you have you know a two and a four-year-old. Are you um how's it going with like logging them in to their nursery school class? Like it was just it was so trickier. People like have you found enough you know fresh vegetables in your community because they're kind of out like people were talking about things on more of a human level. And I think that suddenly what I heard show up in um talent reviews like talent reviews of you know thousands of leaders is um this is that leader authentic is that leader able to create a sense of belonging and I had never heard these terms humility you know um creating

[25:17]  belong ever discussed it was more like are they are they open to a global reassignment are they really good at translating um are they good at storytelling to not line storytelling, but we're like, can they get up in a big stage and create a sense of vision and tell a story that really brings people along on the journey of how the company's going to get to its ultimate goal. That's what I mean by storytelling, like storytelling in a good way. Um but now it was more about how are they treating people as a unvarnished unphotoshopped human just going through a tough time and like so that's a quick example like that was I think a moment of leadership for say you know the start of the pandemic and beyond. Can I back that up with some stats actually as well? So there was a statistic that was shown to me in one of my other podcast guests that talked about employee

[26:04]  engagement skyrocketed during the pandemic. Why? because they were able to see the leaders, the CEO of the organization as a human because now they were in this environment, not in an ivory tower. But it also goes along with exactly what you just said. When you have leaders who show up and ask questions about you as a human being first before the role that you perform, naturally that connection is, I would say, boosted as well. And that's why you see higher levels of engagement, too.

[26:29]  Yes. AB, it's a great stat. And I think that, you know, leaders can be intimidating, but when you're on Zoom with them and like, you know, the cats on the keyboard or like the kids running back and forth on their scooter, like you just see them as people who also um have tricky days. I need to keep us into humor. There's like a moment of recognition where it's like, you know, forever we spent this world where you would think about yourself in two different personalities, right? You've got your home version of yourself and then you got your work version of yourself. But then the pandemic blurred those two lines and leaders had to come to a moment of recognizing I have to recognize both of these people. This is one opportunity I want to kind of bring up a book that I think is really cool.

[27:06]  So there's a guy out there named Gary Veaynerchuk, right? Have you ever heard of him? Gary Vee on social media. Absolutely. Yes. Okay. So Gary Vaynerchuk came out with a book in 2022 called 12 and a half which is leveraging the emotional ingredients necessary for business success. And one of Gary's stories is like, "Hey, listen. I'm the chairman of Vayner X, which is also Vayner Media. We do media services and marketing for Fortune 100 companies, right? One thing that I'm doing here at my business, which is different, is I'm building a honey empire." Now, don't confuse honey when I say that with something that is soft. Because when I believe that just like the famous saying is you attract more flies with honey than vinegar, right? I'm trying to create a competitive empire, which means we are going to dominate, but I'm leveraging the skills in 12 and a half.

[27:53]  And I want to read off some of these to you and get your opinion. Skill number one, gratitude. Two, self-awareness, accountability, optimism, empathy, kindness, tenacity, curiosity, patience, conviction, humility, ambition, and the 12 and a half, the half element in here is kind cander. What do you think about those skill sets of the leaders of the future and how they're going to benefit from really becoming skilled at those things? Oh yeah. Yes to all of that. And I actually have had the pleasure of meeting his head of HR, Cloud. Her title is the chief heart officer. Yes. Right.

[28:26]  So it's really baked in. So um I think that is spoton. I think that we're living in So there's so much happening at once, but I think that we're I think that being showing up as more human um human is incredibly key. No one, as I said, wants to attract no one can attract and retain people unless they show up that way. And I also think that we're living and working and doing life in times that there's just a lot coming at us with the economy. I can't think of a part of our country or the world quite frankly who has not had some impact from all the large weather systems that have moved through and how that impacts people's sense of safety.

[29:14]  Remember like Maslo's hierarchy of need like before we get to self-actualization you need food, water, shelter and if there is a hurricane that hit or fires that are building a lot of smoke um and shutting down your school or your town can't do business. These things are terrifying. So, so yes to all of that because I think that what we need leaders to do is is be really kind and have that cander and say, you know, I know that you're on payroll and you live in the Carolinas and I know that with Hurricane X coming through, um, you've really spotty internet access, like we have other people that are out in Salt Lake City and they're going to cover for you for this payroll run. we've got you like just really kind because if you're, you know, dealing with water in your basement because a hurricane came through, you want to be on point and you want to be on screen and get it done.

[30:00]  Yeah, it is. It is. So, I think that we're in a pretty informal time and um you know, Gen X, Gen Y, they're bringing that they're bringing that to work where in contrast the Gen X, that's the generation I'm in. Oh, sorry, sorry. I mean the Gen Y and the Gen Z, I should say. There are newest generations coming in. Um but um myself, Gen X, definitely the boomers and certainly the traditionalists. There are a handful left in the workplace. Much more formal, much more um boundaried. Um but yeah, so the those 12 and a half I think are truly needed. Yeah. Yeah. So let's let's switch gears and let's talk about kind of like you know, you said it in the very beginning, everybody in them, everybody and their friends are talking about how AI is going to change the future of what we do in work, how we approach it, the tools that we enable

[30:47]  our team members with. So in November of 22, OpenAI released chat GBT. Right now in that time, leaders had a choice to either say we are going to lean heavy into this future of curiosity and possibilities or we're going to ignore this stuff completely. Now HR has always been a human centered division of organizations. Now we talk about this new landscape of AI. How are you kind of approaching this technology and what is your vision for what it's going to do for people especially in the HR space?

[31:15]  Yeah, at our age salon next week we're having um a friend and colleague um Erica Orange, she's literally a futurist come on and talk about AI and one of the things that is on her mind is really the convergence of um processes with HR and it over time. So what I think is yes, I think that every modern organization needs to try it. What we always recommend is that people try even a little bit at home to plan a vacation or find a restaurant just to get comfortable with it and then very much bring that aame to work and make sure that they're using it almost like a ride along buddy. Um not a not an Ivy League intern but a really ambitious intern to to so that people can think all right

[32:02]  I've got this to-do list. What are the what are the pieces of joyless work that I can ask my my really eager intern to look up to sort to collate to make sense of with all these disparate pieces of data so that those employees can do the more strategic work so I think there's massive opportunity um I also think that there are some risks so um you know there is a lot that is not yet known about um how the data like for example 23 and me just announced I think they're selling or there's something going on and Someone said it might not be a bad idea to just take a look at your data and make it non-viewable in case that data is now for sale. Like I was thinking of that as an analogy of how so many of us are bringing on AI. you know there's all different tools cloud and um or um claude rather and co-pilot and Gemini and some organizations have

[32:52]  created their own um and we are all using them and I just wonder if in 208 if some of our queries could ever be accessible. I don't know. I'm just kind of wondering just because I never thought that I I don't know anybody that doesn't have a family member that didn't do the swab and do 23 and me like every it 10 years ago I felt like a lot of people were starting to do that and it was really illuminating and um widening their aperture on their family tree and I just thought God I'd feel so bad if that data that we all so many loved ones felt comfortable engaging with um and offering and having uploaded was there and I just think we don't know what we don't know and So I think that the organizations that we're talking to are just doing everything they can to based

[33:39]  on what we know now just try to build firewalls, customize all sorts of privacy issues. So that's the only thing that I think about. Um but I see massive upside for sure and I'm just encouraging everyone to um to lean into it as much as possible. Um yeah, I I have other thoughts on that, but that's my high level. What do we say to what do we say to leaders who aren't going to embrace this technology? Right? because there are a lot of people out there who say like hey I'm not interested at all and so what is your message to them? Um I understand I think of other times in our um evolution as humans for example when that thing called the WW what was it in like remember there like in the beginning in 95 folks were just not really sure that they wanted to do that

[34:25]  or they didn't want to use easy pass and now I can't find a toll booth collector to save my life right all these things I think I think this feels akin to that in that um it will eventually just become the norm. So, um just to like the New York City subways, like they legit like they won't take your token. Like there's no there's no slot anymore for the token. What they they used to want a slide through card. Now they just want you to tap with your phone, right? They just want you to go beep. So the folks who were just holding on to the token, like they just aren't going to get the uptown train. So I think that that's an analogy that I use and I try to say in the most, you know, I ask them just to kind of start slow and start in a way that feels comfortable for them maybe.

[35:06]  So, in my world, um, you might want to say, "I need to write a job description for an administrative assistant with 10 years of experience and someone who has done event planning as well as has a tremendous attention to detail for our database for contact management and just see what it comes up with." And it is just a running start. And then, of course, you polish and you customize, but things like that that just feel user friendly, um, I think are a good place to start.

[35:33]  Um, yeah, that's kind of what I would say. I always use the job description example because everyone in HR has had to do that at some point. And I think we also need to look to leadership to de to partner with our CIOS, our CTOs and just develop, you know, um, the goalposts and make sure that things are absolutely secure. Um, that is the number one priority because we we touch employee information which is my gosh the most private thing ever. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think that leading with a a mindset of curiosity is super important on how we're going to navigate the future, right? And so, thinking about how can we be curious, not saying yes, not saying no, but that middle intersection of maybe is where that magic can come from. Um, because these tools are, and this is a really important frame for a lot of people

[36:19]  listening, when you think about exploring AI for your organization, you need to think about really kind of, and I loved your analogy about the uh the ambitious, I would say, um, intern, right? These are never meant to be replacements, right? But these are meant to be accelerators to help us do the human work like you said, eliminate the joyless repetitive things that we don't enjoy doing. So if you were to design a future workforce, right, to help you as the CEO of your role do what you need to do, you would probably build some very specific assistants that can help you do the highest leverage task possible. And that's a beautiful frame to kind of look at this technology through, but you have to be curious enough to get there in the first place. Definitely. Yes. A a quick example um a colleague of mine Ian O'Keefe is a company called um Icona Analytics. So I was meeting with him right before we hopped on and he was

[37:05]  talking about in a talent management department they do this thing called succession planning right you look at 100 employees you think who could be the one who could be the one that could be our new chief marketing officer right and you run a succession plan for that coveted chief marketing officer and what do you do to prepare for this meeting as the HR leader you look at um these 100 employees performance review data you might look at um like MyersBriggs or DIS or some type of like work style assessment that they've done over the years You might look at written documents that they've done. Um, videos of town halls that they've led. You might want to get 360 feedback of how people who are peers or junior to them experience them. Each of these, I'm just like each of these data sources have thousands of pages of documents and you might need an analyst from the tech

[37:52]  department to kind of aggregate this information. So, I don't know data analysts about 250 $250,000 a year I think. Um, and so what I've seen done and what I and I were talking about is the data that could take days and days, weeks to get, you could have in minutes by having a system ready that can take these very disparate different formats.

[38:13]  It's like merging something from like a PDF and Excel, right? It's like you can't do it. You're doing screenshots and it's that's it. It's taking the data and bringing it together and then just creating a rough framework to make sense so you have a running start for that meeting. That's a quick example we were just talking about earlier. Yeah. So there's a lot of opportunity for sure.

[38:33]  So let's put ourselves um in the position of mentor right now, right? So know it's absolutely guaranteed that there's going to be a young HR leader who's listening or watching this podcast today and they're like, "Hey, listen. I grew up in a world where I thought I knew what HR was because maybe my mom was an HR leader or my dad was an HR leader." Right now, I'm thinking about what the future of HR is going to look like. From your unique perspective, with all of your experience in the space, Jamie, what do you think the skill sets of the future HR leaders should be developing today with the current landscape of technology and skills that you've identified that help you know leaders be effective? Yeah, great question.

[39:13]  having a coaching approach. So having the ability so I would have them develop coaching skills because so much of what is done on the daily is coaching a leader to have very difficult conversations with an employee. People would rather have their tooth pulled with that nova cane than tell someone hey the way you handled that meeting was not approp like people avoid it. So coaching to be able to have um coaching leaders have those difficult conversations. Um, also coaching so that you can hold up a mirror sometimes for a leader and say, "You are great at 25 things." But the way that you navigate meetings with sharp elbows and cut people off, it just it leaves people not feeling seen just to kind of and many times people like, "Oh my god, I had no idea. Thanks for pointing that out. I like, you know, broccoli in my teeth.

[39:57]  Nobody told me." Like, thank you. But being able to coach, I think, is really key. um being able to have a consultative approach so that you know desperate third party that is non-emotional and just says you know I know that we want to do a big um acquisition of a company and what I'm realizing is that um we're proconing two different companies we're going to acquire but I want to make sure that there's a strong HR strategy for the business strategy and this one organization that you all are leaning towards has a glass door brand that's really tarnished and I just don't think it's the type of people that we want to import to our culture but being able to come at it and speak in those kind of terms. Also feeling really comfortable with numbers. So being able to quantify and show the return on any investment I think is important. So you can be in a

[40:44]  meeting where it's all about numbers and talk talk about the HR initiatives um in the framework of numbers. Um, also someone who is not afraid to try a little code or do a little bit of tech because so much of that will be needed for the future. And I think also an HR leader who I admire um last week, one of our clients said employer relations, she said she's just seen a slight uptick over the last, you know, year. Just there's a lot going on in the global landscape and I think people are bringing a little bit um uh of their true opinion. We used to say bring your whole self bring first was bring your whole self to work then it was bring your best self and now everyone's bringing like their opinionated self to work. So someone who can really like in the moment really deal with employee relations issues which is a fancy way of

[41:32]  saying you know people aren't compliant or they're not being kind to each other or not in the company's values and to really address those real time. Um so those are those are the skills that come to mind. And then leadership, you know, we're all um on a personal level, we're all, you know, setting example. We're all on brand for the company. We all want to um everyone at the company is really in recruiting, right? Just to make sure that you're showing up um and being, you know, um personally um in line with the values and are comfortable with leading as the gray and ambiguous always unfolds in a department. So somebody who can kind of lean in and take that leadership role for a project or or so. Yeah, those are beautiful and I completely agree with everything that you said there. So I want to give you an

[42:19]  opportunity to put your futurist hat on. Right. I am a guy who came from a big sports background as a baseball player. One of the uh the infamous moments in baseball is when um uh Babe Ruth stood at home plate and then called his shot to center field and then actually hit a home run to center field. So what is your Babe Ruth moment? What are you gonna call your shot for the rest of 2025, 2026 and inspire and in the space of human resources? Okay. So, first up, I'm going to keep my commitment. I'm really loving yoga. I'm going to do that three days a week because that helps me then show up in the way that I have all this energy for conversations like this.

[42:54]  So, I'm just I'm putting that out in the universe. for Inspire, we have done this beautiful um um we we just been able to create these community moments where monthly we host salons or twice a year we'll get folks together in Manhattan to kind of sit around a table and have conversations, you know, in a really safe space where um people can kind of workshop all the things keeping them up at night. And I would love to have additional um events like that in other geographies and you know San Francisco and Dallas and you know Boston and Atlanta, Miami etc etc to just to get other HR leaders to come together and talk about all the things um and to keep it real that that's something that I

[43:42]  would love. Um the other is that we are seeing more and more requests from organizations to um import talent and do parental leave coverages or help if a position's open. And I think that with this uncertain economy um the speed with which those requests are coming in are going to increase. So always recruiting and having we never want to get a request that we cannot staff someone for. So always having that strong pipeline of experts is another big goal of mine for this year. And um like 12 other things, but those are and oh and we're just always AI obsessed. We are just always looking for new ways to innovate. So free up time to do the more strategic work. So that as well.

[44:27]  Um, in terms of the field of HR, I think that we are at a moment where we're going to I'm trying my Babe Ruth moment and say it in the best way. I think that just to keep it real in the pandemic, HR had a seat on the table. We were elevated to mission critical permanently during that time.

[44:56]  And I have seen unfortunately a chipping away at that over time where um we're not as much on speed dial and I understand all the reasons why but my vision and my hope and I can see it is that that role is having a stronger voice because I think that during times where the economy is unsteady and there's a lot going on globally I think that people more than ever they're kind of looking to work to kind of for kind of vision and leadership and direction and I think that there's no one better than HR to make sure that the culture is strong and that the whole employee experience is world class and that can only happen if they're in those rooms and have that seat at the table. Um so that is something that I see coming. I

[45:44]  also think what's coming is that more and more HR and tech processes will be um just more symbiotically working together. Um, so that's another thing that um I'm kind of ready for. I love this question because I'm always living in a couple years. I'm like always in the future. Um, so I love I love this question. Yeah, you were early to the party. Can I can I say one other thing?

[46:08]  Yeah. I am so focused on the impact of climate and work. So I give that quick example of, you know, a hurricane going through the Carolinas or um, you know, the payroll can't get done. That's real. So, you know, you know, we used to call it like emergency preparedness, and that doesn't even feel like grand enough of a noun anymore. I really think that organizations need to really think through how the work gets done by who and what we can do that isn't our control to make sure that um we are doing the very best we can to have our toolkit in place so that it's not if you have an employee who has a weather emergency whereby they can't get really critical work done. It's when none of us have generators in our home office, you know, to power a home office. It's like if a hurricane comes through the

[46:54]  Carolinas, the payroll isn't getting done in Carolina. So, it's like how does the payroll get done? So, you have to think the redundancies across various um areas based on the climate changes that we're living in. So, that's my last thing about the future of HR and I think HR can take a leadership role in um in starting to create initiatives around that. Yeah, I love it. Well, one of our traditions here on the podcast as we kind of put the wheels down, Jamie, is our previous guest wants to ask you a blind question. Now, this is going to be interesting. So, I want to hear your perspective. Okay. Their question is is what mistake are you currently making?

[47:30]  Okay. On a personal note or a work note, you can take it however you want to. Well, I'm really bad at stopping for lunch. I start working and then I look up and it's 4:00 and I'm like, "Oh my god, I forgot to eat." So, that's a quick work one or a quick home one. Um, but on the work front, a mistake that I'm currently making is probably not the being easy on myself that I always tell my team and our clients to embody. So, I want to walk the walk. And I think I've been a little light on that recently.

[48:05]  So, I think I'm making a mistake because um people need to know how it's done. And people need to also feel that they're working for someone that is a woman of their word. Yeah. So, whenever we make a mistake, I'm always like, it's cool as long as we've learned three things. What are the three things? And I think that a couple things happened recently where I'm a little bit like, oh snap, how'd that happen? And I don't want to show up that way. Yeah. So, that's my mistake. Well, to be a great leader, we first have to lead ourselves, right? And I think that's super important. Well, Jamie, what an amazing time having you on the podcast. I mean, here just the discussion today is it's easy to understand why you are the definition of heart and hustle. So, thank you for everything that you did here on the podcast today. Really appreciate it, guys. We'll catch you in the next one. Great. Thanks so much for having