AI Can Help You Think Better - But It Cannot Think for You

[0:16]  We're back here on the Heart and Hustle Podcast. We got Mr Ben in this beautiful office, sir. Where you located?

[0:20]  I am located in beautiful Alpine, Texas, the Alps of Texas is what they call it.

[0:24]  And what what's the school you represent in today, man? And what's your role with the school?

[0:28]  I am the Vice President of Student Affairs at Sol Ross State University.

[0:30]  Love it. It looks I mean, I love I love the view. It looks like it's a very bright day. Are you guys also hot and humid? I'm in Orlando, so it's always hot and humid here.

[0:39]  Well, normally we're very we're usually about ten degrees cooler than the rest of Texas. we've had some good rains the last couple of days and since we are located in the Chihuahua Desert, any kind of humidity is always welcome.

[0:52]  Why is it called the Chihuahua Desert?

[0:54]  So we are part of the the large dry area between Mexico and the southern part of Texas. It probably

[1:04]  Got it.

[1:05]  extends all the way up, I want to say close to close to Midland Odessa area. So that

[1:11]  huh.

[1:12]  huge region from there all the way down into Mexico is a very arid region.

[1:19]  Got got it. You said Chihuahua. I didn't know if it meant like, you know, something differ completely different. You know, we see Chihuahuas and we know what they look like. They're just loud, small and you know, no bites. I didn't know if there was a reference to it.

[1:30]  No, no, no. Nothing related to to small canines.

[1:33]  I love it, man. What brings you into the higher ed space, man? it's a space that when I speak to people, people are just so passionate about this. They tr they truly love it. It's like they don't feel like it's ever work. Is that the same for you, Ben?

[1:47]  It is really an exciting field because no two days are the same. my start with it was within campus recreation back when I was in college. And I I was originally gonna go into K through twelve education and things of that nature, but just wasn't a good fit or feel for me. So I found a home in recreation and the possibilities and potential that was within that field.

[2:13]  So what does your day to day look like?

[2:17]  our day-to-day is a constant troubleshooting carnival. from roommates not getting along in the dorms to somebody getting kicked out of class for some silly reason to you name it. I mean, we have we run the gamut here.

[2:34]  That's funny, Ben. Today I spoke to another leader and I just realized for the first time that yeah, there is an office for kids that are not behaving and acting up at a school. I guess I I never, you know, encountered that, but you truly have this on a daily where people are not okay being in the same room or just kids acting up.

[2:51]  It's not a daily thing by any stretch of the imagination.

[6:28]  Okay. Good, good, good.

[6:42]  But we do have an office of disciplinary conduct that if you are perhaps not abiding by the rules and the policies of the institution, some corrective action or gentle encouragement as to what the potential repercussions could be need to be presented to them.

[9:21]  Got it. So is it almost like high school, you can get suspended for a couple of days, or is it like, Hey, we're either gonna follow this or we have to remove you from the university? Are you guys as lenient, I guess, be like that?

[11:41]  We are fairly lenient in there because there's a lot of of room to have a conversation depending on on what the particular issues are. But at the same time, we are an entity of the state of Texas, therefore the rules, policies and laws have to be followed. and we make sure that people understand that early on in the process.

[14:59]  Got it. And then when you think about school now, man, you're you're around it, right? And you graduated obviously from university. So what what was it then that's so different today?

[15:08]  I think that was different from the late 80s, early 90s to what is today is the level of perhaps activism that we see on campus, the level of variety of engagement activities that are are possible nowadays. there were activities back then, but they're different than what they are today. And it's just really the ebb and flow of the culture of, I mean, programs that we did 20 years ago. won't necessarily fly today. So you have to adapt and overcome with the culture of the times. And our students of today aren't the same students of six, five, six years ago. The post COVID element and the interactions shift and change.

[15:09]  Do do you think that there's or I'm guessing you can imagine some of these changes will be but for the better, but we got something like AI that is kind of almost disrupted a lot of different industries. What does it look like in the industry of higher ed? Is it something that you guys are grabbing on to, still kind of a slow take to it or?

[16:36]  So for us, it's a very fast adaptation period. we have to really indoctrinate ourselves into all the different variety things that are out there, but at the same time be very cautious on how we implement those in the classroom, how our professors are implementing it in the classrooms, and we have some specialists that are doing research and training our faculty and staff as to what are the best courses of action. And then of course we have peers and the Texas State University system that have already provided trainings and have different things and process and in play that we can mimic and borrow to really accelerate the potential for our students and staff as well.

[19:27]  Yeah, man, I think such su such a game cham changer, you know, when we think about what AI could ideally do. Not so much we're not talking about replacing a human, but ideally allowing a human to do so much more, you know, with a little bit of resources, I I would say. And I know you guys are strapped

[25:13]  Yeah.

[25:19]  on resources.

[25:34]  Well, yes, but at the same time, I I don't think AI is is sometimes people see it as a really big monster that's ready to eat us. that's not the case. I think AI is here to stay, but our ability to really learn how to use it appropriately in our particular fields makes a difference. That does not mean that you should not be stopped teaching people how to think and how to problem solve for themselves. You're not always going to have a phone on you with chat GPT on it or whatever else that you use. They're wonderful tools, but it's only a good tool if you know how to use it, what its limitations are, and also if you can understand when the information is not good information and how to apply that.

[26:06]  Yeah, I agree. And I I you know, I didn't when you talk about just not always having your phone. I was talking to an electrician and he was saying that one of his I guess journeyman is what they call them, but was was saying he's going to t take his tests or something along the lines, he says something about coding. The guy went to easily chat GPT. He's like, Hey man, when you take the test, you can't take your phone. He's like, What do you mean I can't take my phone? He's like, You there's no way that they're gonna allow you to use that phone and figure out the code. You have to learn the book. And what it looks like to actually find the code. And when the guy

[26:18]  That's right.

[26:19]  looked it up, realizing that you are right, I'm not allowed to utilize this resource. And it's like you have to understand by the book because a lot of organizations, while yeah, you can use Chat GPT at home, when it's time to take the test, you don't have this backup. Okay. You better have learned it and figured out how to utilize it. Is that what you're talking about, Ben?

[26:26]  Absolutely. I mean, this is as far when you go in to take a test, this is sometimes as far as you'll go, you know,

[26:28]  Wow.

[26:28]  and it's an old school way of doing it, but you need to know what the formula is, how to apply them, and and what is the difference and also have an understanding of what the expectation, a reasonable expectation of what an answer is gonna be. And if because if you're so far off the parameters, Then there could be significant consequences. I ran into that recently with an individual that was a certified pool operator. And he was telling me that the volume of the pool that we were looking at was twenty thousand gallons and the the what was necessary chemically to really balance his space was far less than what I know is reasonable. I with in a past life I was also a CPO, so I knew it was like, first of all,

[26:42]  Got it.

[26:42]  your measurements are wrong. Because that's a two hundred thousand gallon pool at least. And what you're telling me is merely a fraction of what's gonna be needed to disinfect that pool on a daily basis. But it's only because we know what we're working with and what have some kind of background as to what the expectation of the response or the answer was gonna be. You need to know the basics and of what you're looking at rather than take everything as an absolute gospel. You know, this is The only the truth and the only truth. Well, perhaps or perhaps not, and know what the difference

[26:53]  Yeah.

[26:54]  is.

[26:54]  Yeah, I've had a call chat. I've had a call out Chat GPT or Claude a couple of times. Like, wait a minute, this is making no sense. And they'll be like, you're right. I apologize. I was in the wrong place. Well, I need to get it together now. Like, we can So yeah, no, for sure. I mean, if you're gonna use AI, make sure you're utilizing it correctly. What what do you think is some of the the things that are needed for higher ed? Like what are those like is it communication, is it consistency? What is so important? important in the higher edge space, you think today?

[27:05]  I think understanding what the value of higher ed is for anybody in any particular field that they're going into. is higher ed the right place for everybody? Not necessarily. There's a lot of alternatives out there, but what is the value of what we're doing here and trying to understand the the broadness of it all? and in what fields does make a difference. As a matter of fact, there was a report that I recently read. Given the need for financial literacy in higher education, well, it's a big need for everybody, and especially here in higher education. But additionally, beyond that is understanding what your course of study is going to open up for you. What is the field of study that you're looking to go into and what are the possibilities there? For example, people think if I'm going to school for kinesiology. For example, that I am going to going to college to be a coach or be a high school or an educator. Well, that is a a reality, but there are so many different areas that that degree can take you, from let's say personal training to health management to facilities management to correctional recreation to aquatic. you know, aquatics. There's all different kinds of areas of things that you can open up with that degree. And it's not knowing fully the capabilities of that that I think fall short. And it's not just in that particular field, it's in any field. There are a lot of things that get unlocked. And I think we perhaps don't communicate that as well as we should. We have precinc preconceived notions and preferences that we like to talk about. But you need to be able to Educate them on much more than what is your preference and your opinion on things.

[27:34]  That makes sense, man, 'cause I've had a lot of people that gone to school and would go and get a degree and realize that they can't use their degree for much. But it it's what you're telling me, Ben, is that that's not true. It's just more of they haven't actually found the right correct lanes or don't even know about some of the lanes that exist. Is that correct?

[27:40]  That is absolutely correct. Think of marketing, for example. If you're a marketing person, what is your space in recreation? Well, in any space of recreation or athletics or there is a place for marketing to happen, whether it's in online marketing or marketing campaigns in general or in higher education for a university. All of that is relevant. Everybody needs the web content. Everybody needs different modes of of reaching out to the public and selling your product or services. So there is different veins. It just doesn't you don't only have to be in the advertising business in in New York City, for example, or LA to be successful in marketing and advertising. There's so much more out there that is a possibility.

[27:52]  No, it's good stuff, man. And and where do you think people find this information like? One example that I could think of is someone that had a theater degree, right? of course, didn't kind of be that actor. Maybe in one point in their lives they thought they were going to be on stage, they wanted to do that, but realizing this this theater degrees really didn't mean much to them. And that's that's actually an example that I've heard. Where does that person go to to get exact what you're saying? Just more the assistance on finding direction to to figure out what that lane looks like for them.

[28:03]  That that's a very good question. I I don't have a straight answer for you. I I can tell you that if somebody is a theater major, for example, there's a lot of different things that you can do with that. For example, I'm not a theater major, but I have put on major concerts and music festivals and great gained great experience of that. But it was because people with a theater background really said, Well, hey, we need to look about lights and we need to, you know, talk about sound. And we need to talk about the reverb in the region or the area that we're going to be using. And it has a applicability for multiple different areas. The question is, as you asked, is where do they find information? Online, there's only so much you can do. It's through practical experience in our environments in the higher education environments that you can really learn about those things even more so and get practical knowledge on there, but also having the conversation with professors, with folks in that space that can really point you in different directions, not just in well, you're gonna be a performer on there. Well, that's part of it, and you may not make it as a performer, but what else does it take to really

[28:37]  Yeah.

[28:37]  build you up as a force in that area? It may not be performing, even though that's what you think you want to do. You may not be very good at it. And that's a reality.

[28:42]  Yeah.

[28:42]  If the camera doesn't like it, it doesn't like you. I mean I know I don't have a a career in TV or anything like that by any stretch of the imagination, but I could probably do a good job of putting something behind the scenes that would support somebody that would be the right candidate for that.

[28:50]  Yeah. I love that answer. And I think that's also what's so important about the groups and organizations out of school is to find those groups and organizations that are really around your your wants and and those needs, right? So you can actually find out so much more about what's going on there. I'll tell you what, I left h I left high school. I got some college, but what I realized is there's so many places that people don't talk about, like audio visual, right? Like A V work that is a very lucrative. job you kind of talked about what can you do in theater. Man, I'm I was doing conventions, I'm working at hotels, I'm putting on huge events. And it's like the ability to utilize those things that you do in entertainment, right? The lights, the camera, the soundboard, like there's when you really think about a production that is put together, there is so many different places. Stage manager, camera guy. So now I definitely hear you on that. I think that colleges, colleges are do a really good job when you think about not just so much how they give their students resources, but the groups

[28:52]  Mm-hmm.

[28:52]  and the organizations are so important. Community is so important.

[28:52]  Community and engagement of those. I I think of Jack Black in School of Rock, that movie,

[28:52]  Yeah.

[28:52]  you know, one great rock show can change the world or or something to that effect. Well, you may not be that musician, but having the vision and the passion to really put something on and be excited about it makes a world of difference. we have a living learning community that we're actually gonna be engaging in researching a an event, world class event. and I can guarantee you none of those individuals will have had a background in motorcycle racing, for example. If

[28:54]  Yeah.

[28:54]  you've ever heard of the Isle of Man time trial or Tourist Trophy, sorry, that event is a tremendous event. And man, there's so many different tangents in there. Because if you're in marketing, if you're in business, if you're in risk management, if you are in video production, if you are in aeronautics or or drone management, all of those things are going to come together. And none of it has to do anything to do with motorcycle racing. And but all of those things are relevant to putting on a great show. The question is, can we interest people enough to come and take a part and take a sip of the Kool-Aid and get immersed into that so they can get some experience. So we'll see how that goes.

[28:56]  But I I'm just having a blast talking to you. You have a lot of energy. I don't know if you know that, but where does the heck does this energy come from, bro? Like is it because you're around the students? Is it you just wake up like this? You had two cups of coffee. What was it?

[28:57]  no, I it trust me, I I I don't necessarily wake up with this and my wife can can attest to this because I'm a grumpy morning person. But you know, being around the students does provide you quite a bit of energy. And I love what I do. I mean, if I were to, you know, win the lottery tomorrow, would I come back to work? Absolutely, because it really feeds you and the possibility feeds you. And I think one of the most important things in what we do is. Eventually you want people to not need our services. We want people to empower people to not need what we do. But at the same time, we want to make sure that they are surrounded with every opportunity to succeed. So if they come back in 20 years, I want to see them come back successful. And I've had that opportunity to see some students that came back from 20 years ago that were my students early on, and they came back to be inducted in a Hall of Fame event. And it was just tremendously a full circle moment for me to see all of those folks with their families being successful and serving people. And that to me made a world of difference. And that's exciting.

[29:01]  I love You got Kid Divion?

[29:01]  I do. I have a a wonderful son that just got married. He's in the Navy and he works in the Office of Naval Intelligence and my other son just moved to Washington DC to work in the Department of Justice and they're just great guys and love to pieces and I'm so happy they're in the same place so I don't have to go to different places to visit them anymore. So

[29:02]  That is so cool, man. And what do you what you want your your your boys to just always remember about dad? Like who is dad?

[29:02]  I think I I I want them to really take away that we try not to waste moments where we can do things that improve our quality of life, where we can laugh and enjoy, and not lose a sense of humor with overly serious elements. I mean, we have a lot of stuff in this day and age can weigh us down. We have a lot of baggage in so many different ways that can really draw people down. And it's great to see when They become the beacon for other people to gravitate

[29:04]  Yeah.

[29:04]  to because they're good leaders and they have a great sense of humor. And, you know, that's what I try to do is not just to make them laugh, to be the clown of the house or anything like that. Some a lot of times there is, but it's about having a good time, having a good experience,

[29:05]  Yeah.

[29:05]  and also being able to share that with other people because it's good that you're having a good experience, but man, it's even better when you're sharing that good. Great experience with somebody else, and letting them really share that with somebody else makes a difference.

[29:05]  Yeah. I love it. Yeah, I I got a two and a a six year old or five year old now. And it's just always funny when they say, This is the best day of my life, and you you didn't really do much, but just as you mentioned, just clown around man, you know, maybe go for a good old bike ride around the block. Like I I'm still in those early days, but it seems does it get harder, you do you think, as these kids get older? You gotta really start to entertain them more. What what does that actually look like, Ben?

[29:05]  You know, I I think they l as they get older they realize, hey, maybe dad was onto something. Maybe the fact that he got the whole family on one bike at one time, you know,

[29:05]  Ha.

[29:05]  we we were like a clown show, was a heck of a lot of fun and

[29:05]  I love it. Yeah.

[29:05]  not to take themselves so seriously. So they over time they learn and you you're gonna see their personalities evolve as well. And hopefully from You know, everybody has a their own ebb and flow of personality and you'll you'll see that emerge over time. And it's exciting to see them develop into their own little person as well. So

[29:05]  Yeah, can't can't wait, man. One thing you did mention that I would love to know from you is you mentioned leadership and you mentioned your ch your boys in in that leadership space as well. Like what is so important to you as a leader?

[29:05]  Being able to be flexible and understanding that empathy is part of being a good leader. It's very quick to look at the policies and look at it in black and white and crack the whip and say, Y this is wrong. But what made it wrong? And what can we change about it to really learn from this and be empathetic and be more supportive to that person versus punitive altogether? not to say that, you know, we just Let everybody walk all over us. That that's not the case. But we need to really understand what led to the failures, what led to the behaviors, what led to the actions, so we can help them go in a better direction of what is expected of us. and of course, I don't ever want anybody to come to school to walk away with a record or anything like that. if they walk away with that, you know, there's some something went wrong there. But at the same time, can we help them understand, hey, you're in this particular state and these are the rules and the laws, and this is how we enforce them, and have those conversations in an empathetic manner rather than a this is, you know, finger pointing moment and you're wrong and I'm right, and that's all there is to it. Have a conversation.

[29:05]  And and yeah, and we could really kind of stay on that moment, right? It's people are going to make mistakes, people are going to fail, people are going to you know, just beat themselves up during these times. But do you recall s a time where you failed, you lost, but in reality it was a big lesson that you still hold on to today? Because I think a lot of the times people get down on themselves, but it to me it's changed the mindset, not my god, I failed, but What can I have learned in this moment to move forward? What does that look like for you, Ben? Do you recall those a moment like that?

[29:05]  All right. I don't think we have enough time for my list of failures

[29:05]  Ha ha.

[29:05]  because that's a big one. But the reality is that, you know, that there have been a lot of failures. And the question is, when you bring out those moments, can you take a step back and be honest with yourself and say, you know what? I screwed up there and I should have listened or done something differently. And can you have that conversation not just with yourself, but with the person you have aggrieved? the person that you have wrong or that you have to tell, sorry, I was wrong in this particular ruling, this decision. I mean of a particular moment I I can think of this kid that this kid, this student that was we jumped a conclusion what had happened and we made a decision that got him kicked out of school. But upon researching it further, we realize this person wasn't guilty of what we said he was. And the person who was culpable really snowed us over. And having to go back and t let that individual know, hey, I'm sorry, we made a mistake. I made the mistake. It wasn't

[29:05]  Yeah.

[29:05]  a committee, it was me. I made the decision to remove him altogether. That that was pretty tough. And a significant blow to that individual and you have to think about how that that person felt when that decision went down and knowing that they were not guilty of that. That that's that changes your perspective because what if that would have been done to me or or somebody one of my boys, for example. And

[29:05]  Yeah.

[29:05]  yeah, that that that hits you pretty hard.

[29:05]  Yeah. But you learn from it, I can imagine. Now next time that that same, you know, situation happened, you realize, well, before we make the final executive decision, let's make sure that we've dotted all our I's and cross our T's, right? We kinda almost live and learn. We're not all perfect people,

[29:06]  Absolutely. Absolutely.

[29:06]  right?

[29:06]  No, no, by no means. and I can't remember where the the term measurable failure came from. But we have to understand that we do expect our students to make mistakes. There are going to be some failures, but I'd rather make those failures and mistakes here and now than out there in the real world. Granted, there are some mistakes that are pretty challenging that you just can't walk away from. But you have to make sure that you are prepared to expect that and also have that empathetic course of action to have that conversation. And sometimes that conversation is not going to be best had by me. It might be one of my staff members and be able to support them and provide them with the tools to have that conversation in a way that they understand. How to help that person too.

[29:06]  Love it. Man, Ben, we start wrapping up, man. I think so many people may know Ben the educator. But who is Ben outside the suit, man? What is he like to do? What is somebody going to be surprised about that Ben actually does on his free time?

[29:06]  Well, I used to enjoy doing triathlons and doing a lot of cycling and running and physical things. I've slowed down significantly in the last couple of years and in part it's because of the role. the role really focuses and keeps me pretty active altogether. But at the same time, I enjoy just chilling with my wife and just kind of slowing down and just being at home and working in the garden. and doing things like that, which I never saw myself doing that kind of stuff. And it's enjoyable, but it it's also because it takes your mind off of things and you can also disassociate as well. And sometimes you need to do that and for your own wellness and that of your spending the family time together is important.

[29:06]  I love it, man. Yeah, out there gardening. I got 50 plans, believe it or not, Ben. Inside plants. And then my wife

[29:06]  Mm-hmm.

[29:06]  has started the outside now. And we're even to the point where we're just kind of growing some vegetables, man. You know, getting our hands in there. It is there is some fulfilling about that, right? When you really get to see something grow from nothing. It is truly the analogy

[29:06]  Absolutely.

[29:06]  of life, of us growing from nothing, right? We we knew nothing. Our parents poured into us, people poured into us. We took what was for us. You know, we made choices. And these plants do the same thing, man. So you get to really see them grow, you're like, man, I was a part of that, right? I I wanted that plant.

[29:06]  Absolutely. I've got cantaloupe growing in in my yard right now and I can't wait to to to pick for the first time.

[29:06]  Let's go. Hell yeah, man. Hell yeah. if you could just speak to your colleagues, I think this is a tough time for some. I think what's happening at the just national government level where people are almost in fear of maybe their jobs, they're in fear of what it looks like for higher ed and they've been doing this for so long. I love your spirit, I love your positivity and your energy. What do you say to those that may not have what you have today?

[29:07]  I think one of the things that you have to take into consideration is that everything in higher ed is very cyclical in nature. That doesn't mean that what is happening today is the same thing that's going to be happening in the next two years or what's going to happen after those two years. But our ability to pivot in our ability to really take a step back and adapt to the situations and follow the mandates, whether We agree with them or not is a skill that we need to really impart in our staff and also help them understand that just because we don't agree with it at this moment, it doesn't mean it's always going to stay that way. But these are the rules and the guidelines that we have to ascribe to, and this is part of the job, and you have to be okay with that. That being said, self-care becomes a huge part of the equation as well. And we have a propensity to burn the candle at both ends.

[29:07]  Mm. Yeah. I love that, man. I I truly appreciate the conversation. I appreciate you you as a leader, man. I just had a really fun time. You put a smile on my face, just the energy that you have. I can imagine the students at the school also enjoy themselves. what is the website? Are you guys on social? So someone that may not know about you guys can actually go check you guys out.

[29:07]  Absolutely. So www yeah, www. dot solros dot edu is our university website. then we are on Instagram, we are on Facebook and all of the other social media outlets. so if you'll just go there, it'll direct you through there. We're the birthplace of Intercollegiate Rodeo. So as soon as you go into our website, the first time you see a a bunch of folks on horseback herding a cattle. Or or a a herd of cattle through campus, that's us.

[29:07]  I love it, man. Thank you so much. And for those that are watching, that is S U L R O S S dot Edu. Make sure you guys check out them on the website where you can lead to all their socials, see some of that rodeo stuff that he's talking about and and some of that great weather they also have over there. Well, Ben, it's been a pleasure, man. Thank you so much for the conversation. I'm Ephrain. We'll catch you guys in next episode. Later.