From DUI at 19 to Mental Health CEO: Dr. Caroline Fenkel's Shocking Transformation

[0:16]  Welcome back to another episode here on the Heart and Hustle podcast. Our next guest was told she wouldn't amount to much in a 19 she got into she got a DUI. right now. She's building a mental health system that that says to every struggling kid, you matter and you deserve help. So, Dr. Caroline, let's get into it. You didn't learn to read until you were 11 and you were told you never achieved much. What did that little girl need to hear back then?

[0:40]  Um, that little girl needed to hear so much. Um, she needed to hear I believe in you. Um, she needed to hear I've been there. I know what that's like from other people who are struggling. Um, I remember a time where I was given those words by a teacher, Kirsten Blakeman, when I was 12 and 13. She would sit with me and tell me, "You've got this. You can complete this test that you have tomorrow. You can do this play that I had to do for school and get in front of a stage of all these people." She told me that it was going to be okay. And so, I was able to hear those things. Um, it just came a little bit later.

[1:17]  Yeah, I hear you. And and isn't it cool that we when we talk about educators in a general like they really deal with so much? They they really were like our parents when we went to school cuz just like you, I was having trouble the sexual abuse, the adoption so early on in my middle school, high school days, sometime elementary. But when I think about how did I get through it? It was those teachers that just seen something in me and would say, "Hey, I know you're not a bad kid. You know, I don't know what's going on at home. You can do better. You got this." um to one day after leaving school that same teacher that was so pivotal in my success becomes one of my board members in the nonprofit. Like that's how like

[1:57]  the impact that was being made that I would never forget her. So I love that you mentioned this teacher. Do you still speak to the teacher or or not?

[2:02]  I do. Her daughter actually babysits for my son now.

[2:06]  What? Oh yeah, we still keep in touch and I tell her every time that I see her, you know, you're the reason why I am where I am today because if it wasn't for her believing in me in such a crucial um pivotal time in my life, I don't know where I would be.

[2:20]  Yeah, that's why you got to show up every every time every day and every time I always say you just got to show up because you just never know whose life you're going to impact and the things that we say to ourselves as well really do matter. But I love that she was able to pour into you. How Let's kind of start there, right? Right? We're in a space where people are pouring into you. You were able to see success. I mean, life still had its own challenges, but I feel like that's just life. Life is a roller coaster. But when we talk about pouring into others, who's pouring into you nowadays now that you're Dr. Caroline, you're you're not this young girl anymore that, you know, had those struggles. Um, but now you're on the opposite side.

[2:53]  Yeah. I have a team of individuals that help me. Um, I have a therapist that I see every week. I have an executive coach that I see. And then we actually have a clinical advisory board that helps me to bounce things off of. I can come to them with any idea that I might have and basically say, is this crazy? Am I just being a founder and thinking that this is going to be, you know, an incredible smash hit or is this something that, you know, is something that really could be a reality? And they help me to kind of balance that and help to advise in different ways that, you know, I couldn't really imagine to be able to have such an incredible team around me.

[3:28]  That's good. Let's we need a team. We need people to I was just actually talking to someone now and I'm like it's so crucial when it comes to the mindset that we have people like that that are speaking really uh positive into you because someone can say something and it can just turn our brain into a whole different you know uh way that we weren't thinking to begin with. But I I want to kind of go back to what you mentioned you I wouldn't say it was rock bottom but you have some challenges at 19 years old, right? You're this young adult. What did that moment teach you about selfworth? It taught me a lot about self-worth. Um,

[4:00]  at the time I think I really just I consistently felt like I just wasn't good enough. Um, by the time that I was seven, you know, and I got diagnosed with dyslexia and ADHD, I was put onto medication. And when you're put on a medication at such a young age, the message that it's sending is you're not good enough, right? Unless you take this medication. everybody else in the classroom doesn't need to take this pill every morning. Um, but you, in order to get you to par, right, in order to get you up to the same speed as everybody else, you have to take this medication to get you there. And so, I really internalized that message that I had. And when I was introduced to drugs and alcohol, you know, at 14, I was a freshman. I wanted to be cool. My siblings were also drinkers, so I would, you know, end up doing drinking with them as well. And I just wanted to sort of fit in. And what I realized was that it just made me better and it made me feel like I was worthy of connection. And it sort of, you know, they talk about alcohol being the social lubricant, right? Like that always was helpful for me to be able to connect with others. And I felt like I needed to do this to get up to par with everybody else. And so my worth was really around how much could I drink, but more importantly, how much alcohol and drugs could I bring to a party, right? Like that was always like I was able to show up with everything that everybody wanted so that way I could be the cool kid and the one that people wanted. And that's because

[5:27]  I struggled with this profound feeling of not belonging and just feeling like on the outside I felt like

[5:34]  everyone got a manual on how to live life and I never got the memo to read the manual, you know? So like everybody seemed to get it and I just seemed to not get it. And so for me, by the time that I hit rock bottom and got into my car and decided to, you know, drive intoxicated and and to I crashed and totaled my car, um, I learned like very quickly that my life was worth something and that the way that people responded around me, my parents sent me to treatment, and the way that my friends kind of showed up for me in different ways, I started to realize like, wow, my life is actually worth it it's not just what I bring. It's not just what I do. You know, I feel like so much we're running around being human doing, not human beings.

[6:23]  And so I always just felt like everything that I'm doing is what my worth is. And I learned in treatment that like I can just be and be worthy of love and belonging just because I exist, not because of what I do for people. If that makes sense.

[6:39]  No, it truly makes sense. And I can actually relate to a lot of you saying just wanting to fit in, wanting to feel seen, heard in a sense. Um because I literally just had this conversation with my wife yesterday remembering all these friends. I used to at 19 years old I was already a general manager. So just imagine I'm I'm making 40 50 grand a year

[6:56]  and um I'm paying for all my friends. We go out drinking. I'm the one paying everybody's tabs and and like you said, I would just

[7:04]  get drunk, have a fun time. I was that fun person. You know, there's there's different type of drunk. I was a fun drunk. Um, but also realizing it wasn't until I had to go host a wedding one time that I was like, they don't have no alcohol here. That was my first time having to do something like that sober. But I've always had it in me. But we think we need something to do it, right? So, and and I'm I'm 30 years old realizing like, wait, I need a I don't need a drink to actually host this. That's how I do this. Right? So, we have to learn things and sometimes at various stages of our lives. So, we're we're not alone in this. There's so many people that are going to be watching this that experienced some of the same things. There's going to be some young leaders that are probably experiencing this now. And I love that you kind of mentioned you don't need it. You know, you you are worth so much more than that drink or that drug. And I experienced um my mom to this day still on drugs. I lost my mom to that, right? I'm an adopted child. Mom has 10 kids and to this day

[8:02]  I can't really have the conversation because that's her lifestyle, right? Um, so no, I I completely hear what you're saying, but I also want to talk about something. You mentioned you had a therapist, you have all these different people, and you built this organization. I hated virtual mental health. Okay. But you you built a business around it. What changed your mind? Because I'm still in the sense like I don't know. I had a bad first bad experience, but I'm guessing there's really reasons why you've done this.

[8:27]  Yeah. I mean, you know, it's so funny because I started out my career with horses. I'm I'm really love horses. I've had horses in my life for so long. And I started out by um doing ecoin therapy. And

[8:46]  I really started doing it purely because I kind of fell into it. Like I found myself I wanted to ride and compete and go to the Olympics. And I was on that trajectory until my freshman year in college where I essentially got introduced to um you know I saw this kind of it was in a catalog you know and it was like I need to take an elective and I saw couples and family counseling and I thought wow that's like easy a my so messed up like I know everything that there is to know about counseling and couples and I've been to rehab and I've been to treatment and this is going to be great and um so when I took that I started to think like how can horses help people and I and I figured out something called ecoin therapy and ecoin therapy is all about being in person right it's about like smelling the horses touching the horses being with them and when I got um when I got out of my master's program I designed developed and implemented an ecoin therapy program and there I did things like psychodrama again all in person like this is like my passion is being with people and breathing the same air And like so when I got the phone call of like hey I want to start this business is one of our co-founders and I want to do you know virtual IOP intensive outpatient programming and at the time I was running brickandmortar intensive outpatient programming one of which had a chicken coupe like we put a chicken coupe on the property so that way the kids could leave the property go pet the chickens be with the chickens get get the eggs out bring the eggs to their family like it was like again all of this was so like all about being and in person and um so when I he called me and I basically said like absolutely not that's just not a thing that I'm interested in doing. I am like the queen of animal assisted therapy, of psycho drama, of like all sorts of different types of treatment, you know, I love music therapy, art therapy, you know, and so um fast forward co hit and I had to like transition all of these brickandmortar IOPS overnight to virtual where we just sent out a Zoom link and hoped for the best. And and it's funny because I did my dissertation on the use of technology in a therapeutic setting and what I found I sat with 40 social workers and they I said to them, "What do you think about technology in a therapeutic setting?" I wanted to design an app which basically was going to send all of the therapists like in session the step count for each one of their clients and like you know weather and what's going mood journals and things like that. And um I said you know what do you guys think? and they said, "Well, I hate tellahalth." And I'm like, "No, no, we're not talking about Tellah health. I'm saying, what if I designed an app for you?" And they're like, "No, no, no. I hate tellahalth." So, my dissertation turned into something that I didn't want it to, which is really interesting. And it happens all the time with focus groups. And so, I wrote my dissertation about how much their providers really dislike it. And um so you know when we went to go and open up this Zoom link I thought based on my dissertation there is no world that these kids from across the country right there's like five there's all these different ones are going to log into this and we had 100% participation 100% of our kids showed up that day

[12:06]  and I found myself I found a kid there was one kid who used to come in every day with her hood up and she wouldn't talk and she would sit and she would just, you know, not really say anything and we'd be like, "Anna, how are you? What's going on?" You know, like what how's how are things going? Fine, fine, fine. And then I got on with her and her hood was down. She was on the camera. She was talking to me. She was sharing about trauma. She had like some sexual abuse that was going on that we knew nothing about. And we said, like, what's going on here? Like, you would not speak to us in person. and she said, "Well, I'm in my bed and I have my weighted blanket on and I'm petting my cat and I'm now ready to talk about my trauma."

[12:46]  And I remember just being like, "Holy cow." Like, this is just such a powerful form of therapy that we're we're missing the boat on like so many of these kids that feel really they felt uncomfortable in their own skin. We treated a bunch of trans kids that were really struggling with how they felt in their skin and like they didn't have a sign that said their pronouns when they would walk around, right? But here on Zoom, they had their pronouns right there. There's their name, there's their pronouns, like, you know, so it's those types of things that I started to like become a telealth convert. I also

[13:23]  I'm a social worker, so we're all about like, you know, helping marginalized populations. And I found I live in outside of Philadelphia and so between Philadelphia and Pittsburgh, we like to call it Pencil, right? It's like sort of the middle of nowhere in a sense. And we treated a kid who had never had access to an intensive outpatient treatment program that was sort of in between those.

[13:43]  And they and that kid was able to come to a really high quality intensive outpatient program and get the treatment that they needed that they never would have gotten. And so for me like between the access and then realizing that for some like they're going to open up and share about things because they're in the comfort of their own home and then the third thing was that parents so parent participation in treatment is the single largest indicator for positive outcomes. So parents would show up to treatment because they didn't have to leave work early, drive a half an hour, sit in an uncomfortable waiting room and suddenly they would show up on camera and be present for the session and that would like that was it. So once those three things h hit, I was like, "All right." I called back my co-founder and I was like, "You were right. You know, we need to do this. This is something that can absolutely, you know, take off, I think, and can be something that can really help thousands of of teens and young adults, and now we're treating adults and kids across the country." What what was the biggest takeaway for you when you had to experience what therapy looked like that you now bring into what you do today?

[14:54]  Um, I think that one of the biggest takeaways was that like the things like yoga therapy and music therapy and art therapy can all translate over to virtual. like you can do those things and still do them virtually and still do them really well in a high quality way and that like that form of sematic therapy is something that can happen for those that might not have access to it. Does that make sense?

[15:23]  Yeah, it does. But I feel some type of way. You're saying art therapy, music therapy. What happened with plant therapy? There's no plant therapy and all this. Come. I'm a plant guy. All right. You're not mentioning no plants. I feel some type I see you got a little plant little succulent over there. Come on. Oh yeah. No, I've got all sorts of plans here. I mean, I think that this is you're you're definitely on to something and I'll have to talk to my curriculum team about how we can pull in plant therapy. I think that that's something that we can do. You know, I will say we are right now in beta testing with a you know, have you ever heard of Finch? like where you basically it's a it's an app where you basically grow a um like from a chick to a bird and you do it by giving it different ways that you're doing self-care. So you feed it or with different coping skills. So right now we are in a beta testing with a group where they all have a finch and they all together are growing it. So it's really cool because you're able to say in the last week what did you do and then it grows together as the group. If the Heart and Hustle podcast has ever sparked any idea or made you think differently, do us a favor. Make sure to guys share this, post it on LinkedIn, or even text that nonprofit friend that you just have. Whatever works. This is what keeps the conversation going and allows us to just grow this community together. Seriously, we appreciate you. I'm pretty sure we'll show our age with this, but remember the little little dino thing that you had uh that you feed it every day or you had to give it water every day? So kind of in the sense of that, right? Like when we go back, we had a little baby and it built something. In this sense though, it's it's too actual human. You do well, you actually receive it. But back then it was just like a little button. You remember the little circle thing? I

[17:02]  I'm trying to think of what it's called. The hermit the I'm forgetting the name.

[17:07]  It was so long ago. It's all good. But no, with plants, um I speak to a lot of leaders and that is to me a form of therapy. Like I love it. I have over 50ome plants and I get lost in the plants. Um, I look at it as life, right? Um, I had this always go back to this one plant I had. I had it for so many years. Now it's had to be six, seven years. I still got the plant. Matter of fact, it's uh I'm going show you this plant, right? I actually had to repot it. But this plant right here, right? It was

[17:35]  it um it had died on me, right? And I thought to myself like, "Oh man." But I kept it and I kept it and I just put it in a new pot. And because I put it in a bigger pot, it had no leaves. It was nothing. and you see the first leaf start to pop out. I'm like, "Oh my god." And for life, sometimes um our environment when we put ourselves in different environments, right? When we realize that we shouldn't be here, we got to go here. When we uh feed our minds correctly, we can start to see a shift. We work out, the mind shift starts to happen. So even like just recently, I created a mindset journal and through it all, it's my plants. I got plants through it because to me that is the form of like why I find mindset reset. It's seeing how plants evolve from something so baby. Just love them. Just nurture them. And it's like humans, man. We just need a little love, a little nurture. We need kindness. We need good people around us. Um, a little bit of sun at times, a little bit of water, right? So, I don't know. I might put something into into what you guys are doing already. Just saying.

[18:34]  I love it. I love it. I think that we can absolutely start to use at least start to use a plant analogy for all of our clients. I like it.

[18:41]  Yeah. Yeah. When you said horse, I automatically thought plant. And then you start saying music and all and I felt some type of way. I'm like, wait a minute. Am I not a part of this here? Like what are you doing? I'm just joking. Um, but let's talk about it. For people who still think therapy only counts of gotting to be in a room, what would you say to them? Because I know there's a lot of people that feel that you still have to be in a room and and what you mentioned, I loved it. I love that people are coming out of their shells virtually and I can actually see that happening because they feel more comfortable in their space. Um, makes complete sense. But what is your thoughts on that for those that still feel that need to be in the room?

[19:12]  Yeah, I think that that people who feel those feelings like we're not trying to get rid of that, right? Like we don't at Charlie Health like our we have so we have a lot of clients that call us that clearly need in-person therapy for one reason or another. And so we will refer them to in-person therapy if that's something that they want. Um, and so I think that that's definitely, you know, something that we are like huge advocates of, which is like there are times that you need to be in a room with a person. It's just about access. You know, it's so funny. It's like when we first started, we had a lot of these conversations, especially with payers, um, where they would talk about this idea of inerson versus virtual. And, you know, we do something very specific. We do intensive outpatient programming. That's nine hours of the group therapy a week. One hour of individual, one hour of family psychiatry can be up to 12 hours of therapy a week. And

[20:08]  that's hard to come by in an in in an in-person setting. And so for a lot of times, we would end up in these conversations with them where they would be like, well, which one's better, in person or virtual? And we're like, well, you know, that's like a really fun philosophical debate to have. Um, for the 7% of people that have access to a brickandmortar intensive outpatient treatment program, and by the way, that 7%, there's a six to eight week waiting list, average weight list, for intensive outpatient programming. So, it's like

[20:37]  which one's be? It's not about which one's better, virtual or in person. It's which one's better, virtual or nothing? Because for this particular level of care, like this is something that, you know, so many people don't have access to. Um, and so for us, that's like a big part of it. But I think too like even when we talk about outpatient therapy, therapists are on weight lists, you know, in-person therapists and so I think that it's really tough and it's it just makes it more accessible. You know,

[21:05]  I'm not saying that I go to therapy all the time. Obviously, I've been there once and I went there because I became a father for the first time and as I mentioned to you, my mom had 10 kids, father had eight, and you know, I grew up feeling why me? the unloved, all these different things that you can feel.

[21:20]  And um when I had my first child, I just remember breaking down. I don't know still this day what it was, but my wife looked at me. She was going through um postpartum, so she was going through to therapy. And she mentioned, uh, hey man, I have a session today, but it seemed like you might want to go instead of me. And I did. And I tell you that was the best experience. And before that, I was telling you I had virtual. But I'm also a big fan to tell people, as you mentioned, virtual works for some people, in person works for others. And I'm not opposed to the virtual, but I I do look at it as it is a rel it's almost like finding a relationship. That first therapist is not going to be the the one, but that doesn't mean you just give up on yourself, right? You got to go find someone that you can relate to. And I think uh when we talk about someone like myself that I went to school and I was living this until probably 15, 16 years old of sexual abuse, the adoption in my mind, we didn't talk about this at home, right? What is your thoughts for those that may watch this that at home they're saying that you know you don't have therapy, you don't talk about your problems, you don't XYZ because in reality what I realize to this day 30 some years old there's still trauma that sometimes I realize is creeping out I'm like wait a minute where's it coming from right what are your thoughts for and what do you say to those people

[22:30]  well two things one is trauma lives in the body and so what that means is that there's a lot of sematic work that needs to be done oftentimes to help to release that trauma. So, even your experience walking around and watering your plants, that's going to be an experience in your body where you're able to release some of that because that's going to be a big part of it. Um, and then I mean I think that another big part of this has to do with the fact that so many individuals that you know live in a position where they are told that their thoughts are not valuable or that their words don't mean anything. Finding someone anyone and that's what the research shows us, right? The research shows us that you don't even necessarily need a parent. It could be a teacher. It can be a coach. It could be a friend's parent. But that if you have one person that you can talk to and be vulnerable with and that hears you and sees you that you are going to be in a much much better position and that that's going to be a huge protective factor for you in the future.

[23:47]  So that's what I would tell them.

[23:49]  Yeah. I also love that we're in a space now, you mentioned pandemic a little earlier. The pandemic really changed what mental health looks like for the world. Um because now it's something that we talk very openly, right? And and you hear it all the time. And I've even had my little nieces will say something like that, like, "Oh, I'm I'm stressed or I'm this." And my daughter was like, "What do you know about that?" But no, that's them speaking out. And we have to really be very mindful of what they're saying. Um so I I do love the space that you're in. I think what's even cooler is that you've lived it, right? the addiction, the recovery, and now in the leadership. So, I'm I'm a big believer that you know the truth on what makes a better healer, right? So, it's it's it's really cool that we go through life at times like myself, all that and yourself, you still overcome adversity, that we still become the testimony to someone else's story because the more that we share, the more that we put ourselves into this place, the more that we can truly help. So when you talked about it earlier about your purpose and and you know God still have something for you. It was truly for you to just help other people change the mindset. Um to my favorite motto was know your worth. And I was at a school one time and this kid won something. I forgot what it was but I was like I want to leave him with something that allowed him to know that I see him. And it was a shirt that says know your worth. Right? Because a lot of times we don't. Someone I used to be told um that I sound like a girl. So, I would never I hated my voice. So, early on in my 20s, I would never go back and watch a video that I did because I just hated my voice. So, I love that you're in this space. I love that you're sharing your testimony, really making a big difference for others. Your face, you're the face of a clinical organization and also in recovery. Has that transparency ever felt really risky?

[25:32]  Um, I feel really strong in my sobriety and I think that it would be risky if I didn't. Um, but I'm lucky enough to be surrounded by other individuals that are in recovery. My husband's in recovery. Uh, my best friend's in recovery. So, for me, um, the risk of re like the how far the armor that I've built up against relapse is so strong that it doesn't feel like I don't think about it regularly. It doesn't feel risky at all. It feels like that's just who I am and a part of my story. And um yeah, I don't feel I don't necessarily feel that way.

[26:12]  I love it. I love it. I I love that we're having this conversation and I hope that people are really taking from this conversation as well. Um because sometimes it's just this conversation a lot of people like, you know what, let me go try it. Yeah.

[26:22]  Um so I love that we're having this conversation. What was what's what's a recent moment that tested your resilience as a leader and how did you actually show up for it?

[26:33]  God, I feel like I get tested all the That's what life does to you. It'll test you every single day. I mean, look what happened earlier. We were trying to get on to record this and it was just testing us. We could have gave up and not have this conversation today.

[26:46]  Um, we're in the middle of doing a couple expansions and I'm really really excited about it. Um, one is um our substance use disorder programming and then the other one is our eating disorder programming. and substance use disorders um and eating disorders are really deadly and it's can be a lot of liability to take on clients that are struggling with these really significant issues. And so when I sat down with our medical director um and a couple other executives to kind of figure out who are we taking and who's going to be um an individual who does need inperson or needs residential and sort of setting those thresholds that I would say was a test, right? Um it's very hard for me to imagine a world where somebody's going to call Charlie Health in distress and we have to say we're sorry you're too acute. we can't take you.

[27:46]  Um, and so I had to really be tested by our medical director um, and by our senior directors um, to kind of come up with where is the threshold and how are we going to take every single case on a case-byase basis and be really thoughtful about who it is that we can take and who is it that we might need to send to a different program. So when you think about innovation, you talked about just growing and I want to get into innovation piece, especially tech. Everyone's looking at AI and AI obviously people are in fear because it it loses that human to human interaction. I'm a big believer that it it doesn't really it's a tool in our toolbox that allows us to do what we love to do more and let everything else like admin work sometimes sit on the back end. So when we think about AI, is that something that you guys are also looking toward into this space? I know it's kind of probably challenging to incorporate, but what are you guys thinking about AI in this space?

[28:41]  Um, so it's funny you mentioned this idea of feeling like this therapist was not the right therapist for you.

[28:49]  And for us, we're going to solve that completely by using machine learning. So we have treated um over 70,000 clients and with that um we have been able to create a lot of different archetypes of patients that came to us

[29:10]  and then look at the therapist who they did the best with.

[29:14]  And so now every client that comes into us, we're able to use a machine learning model that takes every single variable about them. What's their age? What are they struggling with? what's their lived experience, what's their family situation like, and then match them with a therapist that's going to do the best with them based on the 500 other clients that looked and sounded just like them. So, we're just as similar. And so, basically, what that means is we're able to optimize the match so that way you're going to be in front of a therapist that does the best with your type of personality.

[29:50]  Love it.

[29:51]  Yeah.

[29:52]  I love matchmaking. Yeah.

[29:53]  Swipe left, swipe right.

[29:55]  Yeah,

[29:56]  something like that. Right.

[29:57]  Exactly. A little bit like that.

[30:00]  If someone is listening, but they're still afraid just to ask for help because I think that's what happens a lot is that people are just afraid to ask for help and and be um without being judged, right? What would you tell them? And not so much as Dr. Caroline, but as a woman who's really been there in those person's shoes. I would say that if you're afraid to ask for help, I always think to myself that change only happens when the fear of holding on becomes greater than the pain of letting go. Right? And so basically the idea there is you need to be in enough pain in order to start to ask for help. And so my question would be like at what point in time, like at what point in time you have to set the threshold of when it is that you're going to

[30:54]  to let go and you're going to ask for help. And so like putting it into their own like sometimes people who are afraid to ask for help feel like they're victims and feel like they can't go anywhere and they're grasping for straws and they don't know what to do. But the truth is is that they're complicit in creating the circumstances, right? And so they have to be the ones to say, "All right, enough is enough. I've felt enough pain. I now I'm ready to ask for help." So it's only until they make that decision that when are they going to be in enough pain? And I remember saying something to somebody um a while ago where I said, you know, basically like you get to choose. you get to either continue to live in pain or you can ask for help. But like it's up to you. Like it's you. It's your choice. You get to decide whether or not you want to continue to be in pain. And I think putting it on them is a really it's a helpful intervention and it really can help to reset how they think about asking for help. I also want to talk about we all are humans and we always don't have access to um clinicians but what can people actually do everyday people what role can they actually play in transforming mental health access everyday people can just talk just share about their experiences with their own mental health or their family mental health

[32:25]  and the more that they talk and share about this as a normal family conversation. You know, my grandmother was really severely um mentally ill and my mom talked about it a lot and I really believe that her talking about it helped me to be more open about my own struggles and my own journey

[32:47]  as opposed to being hush hush about it and not talking about it. Um, and I think that that's really what everyday people have to be focused on is how can we help others by sharing our story? How can we have the courage to tell our story and tell it with our whole hearts?

[33:07]  I like that. I like that answer. You It's ready. You know, believe it or not, we're about 30 plus minutes into this conversation. I told you it would just it go by so fast. Didn't I tell you that? Didn't I tell you that, Kayla?

[33:16]  But I do uh want to get you put you in the hot seat. Um, for those that are listening, what's a piece of advice that you ignored at that time that you live by now, though God, recently I've gotten into I can't I can't believe I'm going to say it out loud because I am so not the type of person that would say this out loud. Like, it's just not the type of human I am. But I've been meditating. Okay. So, I tried. How are you meditating? I tried. It just I feel like my brain doesn't shut up.

[33:54]  My Correct. same. My executive coach, uh, who's amazing, um, he got me into just staring at a candle for five minutes a day. And what he said to me was, um, every time that your brain goes somewhere else, all that you have to do is begin again. and he learned this from his teacher Sharon Salsberg. And so what I did was I stared at a candle every day for 30 days. And I wouldn't call it meditating. I refuse to call it meditating. And I would get on with him and I would say, "I've been staring at this freaking candle freaking five minutes a day and it's a torture chamber. You have me in a torture chamber." And and he would just say, "That's okay. Just begin again. That's okay. Just begin again." And um what I have found over the and this is recent. So what I have found though over the last I've been doing it now for about 60 days about about 45 days is my thoughts are slower and I am noticing my thoughts more and that's it. It's all that it's doing. It's just

[35:05]  I had a I thought I had a candle here somewhere. Uh I might have to start standing on candles. I'm just saying cuz uh listen I used to sit there and like you know by myself and have the little music in the background or the noise and my brain is just 100 miles per hour that I don't know how as you mentioned do not know how to slow it down. I I even reading like with me I have all these

[35:25]  I could never read. Are you kidding?

[35:27]  Yeah. I tried to read and then I'm like I'm already thinking about 10 other things and I'm like

[35:32]  I watch my Netflix on 1.5 times the speed. Okay. I can't really understand. Okay. I get it. I get how the brain works. I

[35:41]  I got a question for you. Yeah.

[35:42]  Did you watch Straw yet?

[35:43]  No.

[35:45]  Go watch it. It's really good. You'll probably cry though. But

[35:47]  Straw,

[35:48]  it's on Netflix. Yeah. Yeah, it's on Netflix. Saraji Pinson. Uh, it's a Tyler Perry movie and then Taraji is the main actor.

[35:55]  But I watched it. It showed up on Friday and I will tell you it's definitely when talking about mental health.

[36:01]  A really good story and and it's a real like people are experiencing what she felt in that movie.

[36:06]  You know what I mean? And I can imagine a lot of people can relate to it. So yeah, if you haven't watched it, I'm pretty sure those watching by the time this airs they probably watched it. Put your feedbacks in the comments. But what is where's your blind question, Dr. Caroline, when we talk about the next leader that's going to be here on the Heart and House of Podcast.

[36:20]  I would love to know what is the moment that changed you.

[36:30]  The moment that changed you. We all have one. Listen, I that's what I've realized that we're all human. We all have a story. We all we can all overcome it. It definitely takes a lot of digging deep as you mentioned um to just seek that help. Um ask for help. It truly would change your life. Don't let life bring you to that point where you're forced to change because then it happens in ways that were not, you know, as you mentioned a car accident, right? That was that moment for you.

[36:56]  Um and for me it was um really my wife that changed my life. I would tell you I was I was not like relationship and I would always remember her saying to me even before marriage where she says, "How are you trying to help somebody if you haven't helped yourself?" And that hit deep, right? Because I'm like, "Oh, yeah, you're right." You know, the actions in my relationship, she's like, "Something's off, right?"

[37:21]  Um, and I would always remember her saying, "Man, even if this don't work out, I'm I still want to help you overcome what it is." She didn't know about sexual abuse. she knew about adoption, but the sexual abuse I didn't know because as we mentioned earlier, sometimes it may it feels like someone may be judging me when I say the things that I say. Um, now I share the story without crying first of all, but I also share it knowing that people every time I share the story, someone is sharing their story on what happened to them. Right. So, you said it a little earlier, just share your story. If you're asking how do you become a part of someone's mental health growth is allow people to know that they're not in this alone. Um sometimes we go through life because not for us but for others. Life is not about us. The experiences everything we learn is how we pass it on to the next generation of individuals to our kids or as a leader to those that you come across. So I appreciate the conversation. I felt like it was very very needed today. I'm so excited. Had a lot of fun. Dr. Caroline, where can people find you? What is the social media? What is the website before we start heading off?

[38:17]  Um Dr. CLCSW. Um can find me at Charlie Health. Uh and yeah. That's it guys. If you guys enjoyed it, don't forget to like, subscribe, and comment. This has been Dr. Caroline Ephrain. We'll catch you guys in the next one.