How Dr. Wendi Williams Built a Leadership Style That Rejects the Status Quo

[0:00]  So AI only exists because we gave it information. It is intelligence based on the intelligence that we input into systems. That's why when folks have accepted the use of the various AIs on uh the technological platforms, I won't say their names in case that becomes an issue for your podcast, but there are major technological platform companies and they you know they have an update and they're like do you want to use this new AI and you got to like opt into that um or out. It's because what it is, what makes it intelligent is interacting with you. It's learning you and you. We have to ask ourselves, do we want the convenience of what it learns about us?

[0:39]  Right? Knows you pick your phone up and start doubting around and doing stuff and sending messages to certain people front off. Do you want it to suggest to you that you should send the message to the person that you typically send the message to first thing in the morning? Or do you want to remember who you send messages to the first thing in the morning? You know, it's that kind of thing. And so it can be convenient. It can feel like an assistant. And also every convenience has the possibility of and everything that feels good has the possibility of being your enslaver. Welcome back to another episode. And leadership isn't about the title, it's about the impact. And today

[1:27]  we're talking to someone who's defining leadership in psychology, business, and beyond. Wendy William, president-elect of the APA, is here to break it all down. Wendy, welcome to Heart and Hustle Podcast. How are you doing? I'm doing really well. Thank you for having me. Ephine, thank you for taking your time. Dr. Dr. Dr. Wendy Williams, I got to get this right. Listen, I've been messed this up since our first conversation.

[1:48]  You're doing You're doing great. You're doing great. I start off with the first question for you just right off right off the bat. If you could set up your leadership style just in one sentence, what would it be? I would describe myself as a relational leader who believes in other people's power. Is this something that you just gained over time? Do you feel you always had this in you? When when do you notice it?

[2:19]  You know, it's really interesting. I think that as you know um when you talk about over time that's been my life and my story. So, I think that as a as a woman, as a black person, you know, when I thought about leadership, the images that I saw in the world didn't look like people or didn't look like me, didn't look like people like me. And so, you know, and and so it's not only not looking like me, didn't act like me. It didn't act like, you know, um the people that I would grow up to be and look like as well. And so it took me a moment um to appreciate what I bring and who I am and what that leadership journey looks like and what those attributes in leadership look like and to value that they're very much needed right now. Uh so um definitely grew into it. I think it's if I had to sort of place it in a

[3:07]  time frame in my life, it was um when I recognized mimicking what I was told leadership was, I recognized it did not not only it did not work did not work for me and I found it ineffective as a way of connecting with people and accessing and creating change. Um and I guess that would be another piece I would add to leadership that you know we're doing whatever you're doing it has to be for a larger good. And so that I actualize my power for that and I want other people to actualize their power for that. Um, and so if you're enacting, if I'm mimicking a strong man leader or someone who's in political office, you know, and for the last number of years, you know, with the exception of say the last 20, they've only been white men, then this is not going to necessarily

[3:54]  fit. Or if I try and I'm attempting to mimic what I see exemplified in their leadership, uh, and I see that I don't like it. it's not authentic, it doesn't stick. We have to release that and let that go and start to figure out what does work. Um, and a lot of what works for me is what I was raised with by the women and the men in my family and in my community and they look like me. So, we're going to go with that.

[4:18]  I already knew this going to be a good conversation, but you start this off real strong and I'm actually going to kind of add to what you're mentioning or, you know, kind of add on to what you're talking about here. Sure. What was that one moment in your life that you felt you knew or I would say you knew you were meant to actually lead?

[4:34]  Yeah, you know, Ephan, it comes in the form and it making me think of my um my first very serious boyfriend in college and he way back way back. Well, now you're saying how I'm No, I am older. Stop it. Oh my god, doctor. Oh my god. No, no, no, no. I'm just messing with you. I have to, you know. No, he would say to me, he was like, he would tell me that I was intolerant. And you know, I would uh um I've worked ever since I was 14 years old. I've had different jobs, but I've always um I've like I like to make my own money. I like to be independent. I was raised to think like in that way to like you need to be out in the world and you know that kind of thing. Um to, you know, be self-reliant.

[5:13]  And I had a sub job in college and he was um and I was complaining about I was like they're doing it like this and I don't know why they're doing you. I was complaining. I felt like the people they were not doing something correctly in the world according to Wendy. And uh he was just like, "You're so intolerant."

[5:29]  And I was like, "What do you mean?" And he's just like, "You." And then I was like, "Well, at that point intolerance was reflecting that was the word referencing to folks being anti-LGBTQ." And I was like, "I'm not intolerant." Like I value everybody. We had a whole little fight about whole little fight about it. Um but mostly what he was saying is that you know you know you I had this discontent and my discontent ultimately was and now I realize is that this could be happening differently and better and I have some ideas about how that can happen. Part of that would be listening to the people that we're working with. Part of that would be understanding the people that we're working for. You know the I usually do a lot of social services based community work with children and families and community. And so the idea that we're making decisions or writing policy or enacting processes without including these folks who are affected

[6:18]  by them does not make a lot of sense to me. And so that was what was you know jenning up in in me and and getting uh you know activated. And so that is, you know, that's that's how I knew. Um I felt it as complaint at the time, but as I look back at my younger self, at my 20, 18, 20-year-old self, it's like, no, you just you had a sense that we could be doing this a little bit differently and better. Um I'll say one other thing is that growing up the middle child in a family, in a blended family, um my siblings jokingly call me the oldest sister, the oldest, the oldest. And it's like even though I'm in the middle and there are folks who are older than me and younger than me, I'm the bossy one.

[6:56]  I can really see very specifically but I think it's because the middle gives you a lot of perspective and you can see like how uh what is happening touches the very youngest the most vulnerable as well as the oldest and that they may or may not see and so just because you have an age or an office or a role. I think that's why I really don't think that that is the definer you know of a good leader necessarily. I think people leave because they understand the people that they're with. Um, and that that is what's going to contribute to us, you know, having the type of leadership that we can depend on and that is that is helpful ultimately. We should be um making people's lives and experiences better. I wonder if this happened to you. You talk about that young leader in you. You know, did you ever feel that you were in rooms where you became the disgruntled employee, but in reality you

[7:46]  were fighting for what was right? Yeah. I only say that because you said something a little earlier and I'm that person. I used to always get in trouble like and I look back at it and I'm like, "Okay, maybe I could have said it better, but I was still right." Yeah. No, no, no, no. I don't think I mean I really, you know, I'm the middle of five kids, you know, so I am nothing but a team player. Like, give me the ball and I'll play my my dad used to say, you know, play your corner, know what your role and your responsibilities are and do that part really good and know that other people are in their corners doing their role and together we have a team.

[8:17]  we could win. Um, I I think for me, uh, I might have been read as disgruntled. I don't know. People tell, you know, black women that we're angry all the time, meanwhile, we're meditating. It It's like whatever. But I think that there's also the part of like there's also the part of like for me, I am someone who loves to see things be good, like good, you know. Um, I wanted to see like I wanted to shine, I wanted to sparkle. I wanted to be efficient. I want it to be effective. You know, I love those home uh remodeling shows. I love to see them come in and crash it all down and bid it all up and it's beautiful and it's sustainable, like all of that. I'm I'm here for it. When they say we have to redo the plumbing because the house is going to have a leak, I'm like, "Yeah, redo the plumbing and then put beautiful crown molding on it." Lovely. Do all I'd

[9:05]  love to see something improve. For me, it is a drain on on my personhood to just be involved in something that's mediocre. And that's really what my complaint is about because I want to be proud of what we're doing and I'm not proud of things that are sort of like lackluster and we're just kind of getting by and being lazy. That's my own personal values. That's like my personality and it probably gets on people's nerves if they just kind of want to, you know, eek on by and you know, okay, I but that's just how I am, you know. I'm always going to want to make it better, you know. And especially as a psychologist, part of making something better is that people feel safe, that they feel seen, that they feel secure, uh that we heard you and that we act in response to you. That we don't want you living in, you know, the dwelling of your trauma, that we want

[9:53]  you to find healing. that's making it better. Um, and so as a psychologist and as someone who's leading in that space, I want to create the conditions and support others to cultivate the conditions to make the world and the experiences of each of us in it better. And you, no one can convince me that that is wrong. I love that, you know.

[10:12]  So, people probably listen to the the the title of a president-elect of the APA and assume that that's the highlight of your career, but that's just that one moment um that that really meant even more to you than like that's not just that thing that defines you. What defines you in your leadership? You you recently go into this entrepreneurship world from this corporate lifestyle.

[10:37]  very scary, very risky people would say, and I'm pretty sure you've heard that. But talk to me more about these moments that make you It's not just at president-elective AP. I want people to know that you've been great beyond that. All right. But talk to us more on that. Oh, man. You know, I really appreciate your framing. Thank you. Uh I think that here's what I know. I know that I know how to do what I know how to do.

[11:04]  And I've witnessed folks kind of get lost um and a little befuddled. And what I mean by knowing how to do, I know how to navigate these systems and these structures. I really do. And um and knowing how to do that from this positionality is particularly interesting and also important. And so, um, a lot of times access and opportunity is blocked because you are, um, represented or presenting in such a way that seems, uh, inaccessible or not a good fit. Um, and you know, or you're not quite sure what's being asked when the words that are being framed and phrased around you are being asked or we haven't figured out how to fit our

[11:51]  authenticity inside of the main goals, vision, and perspective of an institution, organization, world, society. And that's my sweet spot. Like right now, what you're getting from me right now is what I bring to a meeting. Yeah. It just is what it is. Imagine I know you all the time. This is me all the time. And so um you know I yes had to learn to grow into my leadership to grow into my power. I don't shriek from it. I this is it. I know that I'm like this. And it I always tell my mother I'm like I don't know why I'm like this. She goes I don't either but you're like like this is what it is you know. And so uh when I think about the entrepreneurial space I'm not afraid of that. I'm very fiery and I'm I I I have a bolt and

[12:38]  everything that I set my mind to, we do cuz I want it to be done right and what that looks like on the other side and what that manifests into being. I look forward to seeing it. I also know that there are things we plan to do and then there is the larger plan, the universal plan, God's plan. And so you just kind of move in the directions that you feel pulled and you feel called. So there's that. And I really appreciate you naming that, you know, there is no role or identity or or positionality that I'm attaching to. Um because you can't take that with you when you leave this earth.

[13:13]  Um I would say that I am someone who has taken on certain responsibilities and they are uh they being those institutions that it's I'm meeting them in a moment when they need somebody like me. Mhm. And so that's why I'm there. You know, if the Heart and Hustle podcast has ever sparked any idea or made you think differently, do us a favor. Make sure to guys share this, post it on LinkedIn, or even text that nonprofit friend that you just have. Whatever works. This is what keeps the conversation going and allows us to just grow this community together.

[13:52]  Seriously, we appreciate you. Yeah. I I think it I think it's so good to what you're saying like these titles don't make us and I've I've currently work on a journal a mindset journal and it's to help these CEOs, these presidents, these business owners get outside of that title. Yeah. Because for so long we'll be focused on this title and we think that's who we are, but in reality that's not who we are. It's all it's it's you know everything in our personal lives that we had to experience or everything we have to learn or every sacrifice we had to make. Like that's what truly makes us who we are, you know, and and when you understand it, you move very authentically. You move very authentically because you found that. You understand that. So, I'm loving this conversation, though. This is really good. And then I just also noticed that we wearing light colors. It

[14:40]  must be That's a vibe going on, right? We're synced up. It's that and the glasses. We're synced up. And the glass, the good glass. Yes. could well we talk about evolving innovation um we're talking about growth kind of let's get into a space of AI that I think that's just kind of where growth is at right now and some may say even shaping psychology and business some say it's will be a game changer but there's all those that calling it a threat security issues um it's going to take people's jobs what's your take on it um I I I think that those were things that were said about nearly every technological advance that we've had. So, washing machines, I have a friend of of mine and we do some work in the AI education space and she's written an article um I think last year sometime and she said

[15:27]  how her grandmother uh her German grandmother uh was intimidated by the washing machine, you know, the um because they used to do the washboards. That's when her grandmother's coming through and she was intimidated by the washing machine because she thought that it would usurp the role of the woman in the family. Meanwhile, other people were like, "Please take this away from me." And she said her Brazilian grandmother was like, "This is fascinating. It's agitating and it's cleaning." Oh my gosh. You know, uh they said that about the calculator that none of us would know how to do math.

[15:56]  They said that, you know, the printing press. What if you put books and then people could read whenever they want to? They didn't have to talk to each other. So every technology I think has the capacity for expanding and creating more possibility, more opportunity for human beings and people. And every technology can be misused. Yeah. Everyone can you know so it's up to us to think ethically and responsibly how we integrate the technologies into our lives. AI is already in our life. uh when you sent a text this morning or whatever, you know, right? It's it finished your sentence and it's like I don't know if those are the words I want to say. Oh, those are the words. Oh, look, they don't misspell the word the way that I would misspell it. Let me just go ahead and accept that. And so, it's already in your life, you know. Uh and so there and and and in a lot of

[16:45]  other different ways as well. right now. I think with artificial intelligence and especially this um generative AI, this is what is causing a lot of concern because it's not just being seen as a helper. It's being seen as something that generates and therefore could be a replacer. Something that could create um something that could create a um could create a sense that I don't actually need the human. Human beings are expensive. Human beings are expensive.

[17:21]  So whether it's in business or in life, you look on any balance sheet uh in a home right now, everyone's looking at the inflationary cost and the the rising cost. Well, the largest inflationary space that folks look to are what? Groceries because we have to buy groceries to feed who? Humans. You don't have to feed the computer food. We do now there are the things that we do. Um it does eat electricity and water.

[17:47]  That's what it's right. That's what the impact the environmental impact. Human beings are the most expensive item bal on the b on the on the on the balance line for a budget for any business the salaries the benefits. So human beings are exper uh expensive is my point. And so certainly when folks can see that artificial intelligence could be used to replace an aspect of the things the types of information the type of activity that they generate the product that they generate that's intimidating and also AI is imperfect at that. In fact one of the relationships I think about this and what I think about for us in the space of in the space of psychology is to really understand our relationship with that technology. So AI only exists because we gave it information. It is intelligence based on the intelligence that we input into

[18:34]  systems. That's why when folks have accepted the use of the various AIs on uh the technological platforms, I won't say their names in case that becomes an issue for your podcast, but there are major technological platform companies and they, you know, they have an update and they're like, do you want to use this new AI and you got to like opt into that um or out. It's because what it is, what makes it intelligent is interacting with you. It's learning you and you. We have to ask ourselves, do we want the convenience of what it learns about us?

[19:05]  Right? Knows you pick your phone up and start doubting around and doing stuff and sending messages to certain people front off. Do you want it to suggest to you that you should send the message to the person that you typically send the message to first thing in the morning? Or do you want to remember who you send messages to the first thing in the morning? You know, it's that kind of thing. And so it can be convenient. It can feel like an assistant and also every convenience has the possibility of and everything that feels good has the possibility of being your enslaver. So you have to decide what about your life you want to hand over to automation.

[19:38]  And automation for what purpose? Yeah. I um it it is it's to me a tool. It's a resource. I don't think that you lose human connection. And I think that's where people also feel like you know that's that's where and someone has to feed a data so there's still a job there that someone could learn right it's understanding okay we're we're in this change how do I evolve with time so I think so many people are so focused of AI but it's like okay how do I embrace it because it's here it's been here you talked about text prediction like that's been a thing for some time now you remember T9 I don't know if you had T-Mobile but T9 was a thing a long time I did not have T-Mobile but tell me about You don't got T-Mobile. What do you have? I remember those flip. I remember I just didn't I had another phone at the

[20:25]  time and it didn't make sense to get another one. But what did what did T9 do? T9 was just the auto prediction like it would just auto just T-Mo would just call it T9 called it own thing. But now it's been around like you mentioned for a very long time and and people are using it every single day to this day.

[20:39]  AI is just a another level of what's already been implemented. That's right. Uh you talk about generative AI that's also just another level of what you know is coming next. Um can we talk about AI in the therapy like does you feel like does it enhance it leadership coaching therapy or is there a limit to what it can actually do? It's a hot topic. Um, I can tell you that there's a lot of concern particularly in my field because there's this aspect of AI where it in order to maintain engagement with the human being that it's interacting with, um, it is very agreeable. It's very supportive, very agreeable. You may have noticed that when you engage with generative AI, it's like, oh, I'm wondering about this.

[21:21]  Oh, what do you want to do this? And you're like, that's a great idea, Ephraim. Did you think about this? Did you think, right? And so you start having and it's before you know it you're in a full-on conversation and it's and it's in your phone or on your computer. Um what we've noted in in in the world of psychology and to a negative effect is that a few things. So when someone is seeking mental health support and therapy, they're not necessarily seeking agreeableness. In fact, sometimes and the role of a psychologist um and a mental health provider is to hold a containing or holding space for someone to process complexity and the challenges and opportunities in their lives. Sometimes a a big part of what my work is and what my colleagues do and you may find this in your coaching work as well. I think

[22:07]  you said that you do that with executives, right? Is that you have to challenge people, right? You have to challenge people. So being completely and totally agreeable all the time isn't actually the job. It's what AI does because it is funded. It makes its money by your constant engagement, right? So, it's the attention uh economy and the wars for our attention. We have to be I think pretty stealth in trying to figure out how to make sure that wherever and however we attend that we are maximizing that part that works for us and not just giving our attention away in a way that undermines our ability to be thoughtful, to engage and all the rest. So I would say that with in my field it's it's it's a hot button issue because the agreeableness means that there could be instances in which AI the generative AI is agreeing with

[22:56]  someone negative thoughts about themselves or plans to harm themselves or plans to harm somebody else. and and our we have a very broad-based ethics code, very expansive, but these are particular areas where um we we have a very hard line uh that whenever anyone suggests that they're going to hurt themselves, hurt somebody else that we, you know, we call out the guards, right? We we contact the the individual that's in harm's way. We contact local authority, you know, we do certain things. uh we contact local healthcare in terms of maybe this person needs to need some support in ways that they haven't recognized yet. Right? So yeah, AI is is is it's it's not going to call 911 when when that is happening, right? And also it's not just about

[23:44]  blanket blanketing calling 911. Like it's actually a much more nuanced perspective to therapeutically think about how to support and protect and and maintain uh the autonomy of an individual who is vulnerable. And that requires much much more nuance. Is it possible to teach AI that? I don't know. I don't want to I'm not a lite. I don't think that technology is bad. But my concern would be that until you know for certain that it can handle the type of seriousness of that type of situation ethically and responsibly and in such a way that uh that we keep as many people safe as possible and protect them as possible.

[24:23]  Then we have to be conscientious of that. Now, there are things that AI is so good at. I love a little AI assisted editing. It's helpful. You know, I I love it's it's helpful. You know, I love um some things that can be automated in terms of information gathering and some of those elements are part of the therapeutic process. Uh you know, in the clinical setting, when I was a graduate student, before I could see clients, they asked us to do the intake assessment, which is that you just gather a lot of information from a client. Um for some col uh colleagues who are in private practice um the intake interview takes between 60 to 90 minutes depending on who you are, what your practice is and your processes and oftentimes you have that first interview but you're still collecting information as time goes on.

[25:08]  AI might be good for that. AI might be good for that collecting data, putting it in a transcript, having it available later, filling out, you know, completing a form on the back end and the therapist, the clinician can then take that, use that and build upon that, clarify it. you do this all we do this all the time there's that could be helpful for note takingaking we have to always though make sure like okay so note-taking but who can see these notes when it goes into the AI uh into the system is it truly confidential because when it's one to one we can have the accountability that well if anybody knows what was said in those notes those notes were kept in a locked drawer in your office so you're responsible for the fact that those notes are not in that office well who has access to that within the virtual and digital space so needing to make sure that we you really iron out those kind of uh protections and and corrections that need to happen

[25:56]  there. And I don't know that we're there yet. I don't know that it's impossible, but there are certain ways to think about this. So my advocacy and I know that um many of my colleagues in our in the field, our advocacy is just to have psychologists in the buildout space. And so it's in the engineering designing of it. It's also I think in the consulting space to ensure that you know the ethical guidelines that we're abiding by how do we ensure that the uh technology holds those ethics so that we can as clinicians responsibly use that technology and not harm and also beyond not harm do good for people.

[26:33]  I'm learning now when you said that about the whole like people feeding it negativity and being in agreeance. I'm like, "Oh, yeah." You know, I didn't even think that far. But yeah, I could definitely see where where that could have happened. I was going to say you could prompt it differently, but it's like that person doesn't want it prompted differently. That's what they want. They want someone to agree with them. You have to prompt AI differently.

[26:51]  You have to say AI. If we are doing this type of work actually being agreeable, so then it has to be programmed and designed differently. But right now its program and design is to maintain constant engagement, which is to be agreeable. Be a yes man or woman or woman or woman, right? But constantly agreed. And that's not helpful. I mean, I don't know if you've ever had the opportunity to seek therapy or coaching or support, but it's when you've been challenged, I'm sure, that you've grown the most. And so, okay, you want to go there? I'll go there with you real quick. For sure. I think I told you that my my past life sexual abuse, not my past life, the life that I'm living, but I say past because my younger days, right? uh adoption, sexual abuse. I grew up with that till I was like 27 years old. Um finally told my wife life was happening. I'm 27 years old when I finally told people. Okay. Felt at that

[27:38]  moment that I was um like I was going to be judged. All these different things, right? And it wasn't really until even though I know I probably needed some help, I reached out and I think the first time I I went into the virtual world and that was a horrible experience that just made me not want to do it. Okay. So then we became parents and then that's where really the mindset becomes different right I didn't have mom and dad like biological mom and dad there so my goal is hey I don't want to repeat this cycle um you know I don't even know what a dad looks like you know my mom that adopted me was a single mom seven kids so I don't even know what a man looks like so there's all these things playing um in my head and I remember my wife was actually going because we just had our child and she was you know postpartum yeah I can't remember what happened man I think it just it just everything

[28:25]  started to weigh on me, feeling like I owed my mom that adopted me something. Like I just wasn't living my true self, right? I felt like there was something holding me back. I remember breaking down and that same day she was going to um go to a session and she said, "You know what? I think you should go on my on my behalf.

[28:42]  All right, I'm going." That was my first time. And to this day, I only seen her that one time. Okay. But I didn't know what to expect. And I was also open faucet. I'm always always am, you know, but I was definitely just sitting there. I realized all she was doing was making me think. Yes. By asking questions. Yes.

[29:02]  And as she's asking these questions, I started laughing to myself, you know, because I'm like, why didn't I think this, right? So, it goes back to that that coaching aspect of, you know, just what you guys do is no one's telling you what to go do. They're just making you think differently. So, that's where I realized it's all in the mind. It's it's the way that we think. is the way that we talk to ourselves is the questions that we're asking ourselves and so many times people don't get that experience on what that actually looks like you know so no I have um I'm really glad that you had a positive experience ultimately um yeah she was good yeah yeah so let's talk about it the president-elect of APA can we talk more about the organization sure what about it but you want to

[29:51]  What what what what's the target audience? Where you guys doing the work? What what you guys do you guys do? Yes. So the APA is a few things. It's a guild organization which basically means that it's a professional organization for professionals in a particular world, right? And so our world is psychologist. Psychologists are so diverse a group of people. Um I think oftentimes when folks think of psychology, they're thinking of practitioners. you're thinking of folks who do clinical work, who are in practice um um and then you know the health services. So the therapy, the assessment and and all those pieces and that is a huge part of our work. It's a very important piece of our work but it's only part of the work. Many of us are researchers and scholars. Many of us are engaging in large and smallcale

[30:39]  consultations with large and small scale organizations, associations, companies and industries and institutions. Um, wherever you see the impact and the result of human functioning is work that a psychologist can be in. You said something really interesting just a moment ago when you're talking about your experience, you your aha moment about like what was happening with you with this therapist and it was that all she was doing was getting me to think what we have between these two ears is so powerful and amazing. Like it's actually miraculous when you really think about it. like it it truly is, you know, um and it needs help sometimes.

[31:19]  And this is why relationship is so incredibly important because we are pushed to think and to be different because of who we're in relationship with. It's, you know, being open and trusting the other person on the other side of that interaction. But once you have that, they really have the power. Not because they're manipulating or anything, but because they're curious about you, they help you to get a little bit more curious about yourself. And it's in having space where you can become curious about yourself, where you see more of your possibility. A lot of our stress and frustration and angst and whatnot comes from being so narrowly focused that we don't see the full, you know, range, 180, 360 all around us. We can only see what's in our our initial view. Um maybe the periphery as well.

[32:04]  And so having that support is important and I would say that that's what happens in my field that we have practitioners, we have scholars, scientists doing incredibly important work helping us understand the effects of this technology on our brain functioning and on our relationships of substance and substance abuse and use disorders and our relationships and our ability to think, practice and engage in the world effectively, how we think.

[32:29]  Um it runs again the ways that people, human beings interact in legal systems and other systems, military systems, structures and organizations and how then that results in certain outcomes. And if we want to create a society with pro-social engagement, how do we support individuals um and systems and organizations and communities to work toward the optimal? Well, part of it is understanding what can happen when we work toward the suboptimal or those things that are negative for us. And so that's the work of my field. Um, we do work in advocacy because once we know what we know through our studies, once we do it through practice and our work with people, it's actually a responsibility and part of our ethics to disseminate that information like to share it out widely, to tell people about it. Our science, our work is one

[33:17]  of those things that we really need to give away. I one of the things I like doing the most is when we get to go to Capitol Hill and talk with uh politics uh or politicians rather and and lobbyists about the work that we're doing and its impact on people's lives and how it will affect people in their communities no matter where they are and who they are.

[33:35]  That can be in urban centers that can be in rural centers that can be in sub that can be anywhere in educational context that can be in the mil that can be anywhere and across the globe. uh because that is how expansive the work that we do is because it is all about people mind body spirit soul of people that's my work and so I feel really grateful for the work that we do it's it's really really broad in that way though as you can see so when you say well tell me about I'm like well what do you want to know because there's there's so much there's a lot we have state associations for each state uh we have 54 divisions which are focused in particular areas and types of psychology ology even for folks who major in psychology in college or study it even in high school because we do have the the instruction of high of of psychology

[34:22]  in high schools. There are so many dimensions, so many subd discciplines within the field because the human being is quite fascinating when you when you break it all open and pay attention. How does spirituality or mindfulness actually play a role in approach to leadership? Oh, that's a nice question. Um, you know, I consider myself to be a very very spiritual person and I I think the tagline for my for my business is lead authentically you. And I think so importantly for us is that that authenticity has to come from something greater and bigger and also more internal and personal and larger than any of us. And it's not about our

[35:10]  performance in the world. It's not about what we want or think people should think about us. It really is like when I am home in my soul in myself, when I, you know, shut it all down and gather it back, who am I? Like, who am I? And I think that those are questions that are answered when you have a practice, whatever it is, uh, that allows you to come on home to yourself and to connect and look out from the world from that place. uh and look out from the world and to challenges and opportunities, the people you love, the people who annoy you from that place, the people who you work with, the people who you don't want to work with anymore from that place. It it allows me to be much more generous and allows me to have much more capacity to see also they have that same place that I'm looking out from. They have that too

[35:57]  and I have to honor that in them as I honor it in me um and honor it in all of us. So, I think that that foundationally creates the context and the space for good leadership because then it makes it not about the little I don't know whatever it is we're we're we're tustling over or the the disagreement that we have, but more importantly, um where we're trying to go largely.

[36:22]  Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I I have another question because I love your insight when it comes to just everything that we're talking about, but I I want to bring it back to that leadership aspect as well. And so many people, they hold the title of a a manager. They hold the title of they they hold these high-end titles, but are they really leaders is the question. They awake they kind of mistake that title. What's the difference between a good leader and someone who is just kind of holding power? I'm pretty sure you've experienced this in your successful career.

[36:53]  Um, yes, I have. Um, I think that people who are holding titles are just excited about that. You know, one of my favorite TV shows is Abbott Elementary. So, okay. The principal in that show, she's such a funny mess. She's a mess and she's on purpose, but she's someone who just, you know, appears to hold the title. You realize as the show goes on that there's something more there, too. But gosh, on the surface of things, it's like, can I have the high-end bag and the title and the salary and the car and the shoes and my hair and all this? I need to look a certain way. And part of that is for her or whatever. Um, there are folks for whom that's all it's about. You know, maybe there's an inkling for others in there. Um, and so I don't want to steal away their sense of purpose.

[37:41]  Um, typically it's a niche idea that also connects to what's personally important to them as opposed to what is generally important even if it's not in their own interest. I think that a good leader is someone who has to hold the interest of everybody even if even if it sort of um even if it's not in your best interest you know so kind of like what bothers me bothers me at times is that these people become these managers these supervisors cuz someone a leader or so-called leader thought that this was the good fit and and it could be a good fit if leadership was invested. A lot of the times they may have a lot of the skills but not the

[38:28]  leadership skills and there's there's no training into that. I do truly and maybe you can agree that you could teach somebody how to be a leader but are we investing that time and I think that's really where it fails and so I see some good potential managers that if they just were poured into a little more Yeah. you know, given the resources. Um, I give you an example. I just had uh through the coaching, someone says, "Hey man, I feel like our store is not making enough um money. Like, how do we help increase sales?" And I said, "Well, who's running the store?" Because I've been in those shoes before, right? I I was a restaurant manager at 19 years old and I went into I grew up in Pine Hills, which was the hood here in Orlando.

[39:06]  Okay? And that same that same because I understood how to speak to these people, right? That's where I grew up. That store went from almost closing to a very successful store. Why? Because I understood leadership. I understood what that actually looks like, right? Just because I was a manager doesn't mean I wasn't on the front line making sandwiches. Just because you know I was a manager doesn't mean I was only opening. Like I just understood all aspects and the customers. So some other people I I told them I said if your manager is not good and the when people go there they don't feel good. Like that all is a part of growing a store. And if someone doesn't understand how to be a leader, that's where you probably want to look into to to kind of increase sales. If you're just putting a body there to just put a body, you're just going to get the minimal work out of that story. Yeah. You know what I mean?

[39:51]  I totally agree with you. I Yeah, I totally agree with you. You know, I think what you just said about your experience um at 19, which is such a compliment in terms of uh just what people saw in you and obviously um your life story too in terms of you what do I want to say cuz I it's on my spirit to say to you is um you could have took another route.

[40:20]  Mhm. And you didn't, you know, and Yeah. And that's listen I um I you are right in life we have options is how I look at it. I have a my biological mom 10 kids biological father eight kids. I have brothers and sisters that are still um feeling like someone owes them something. Yeah. You know and and obviously they look at me like I got it all and no I'm just living life or trying to live life per se, right? I'm still got a family to take care of and when they see that you have a business, you got money. No, I just took time to build something in in hopes that we can leave a legacy for the family, per se.

[40:59]  Right. And um really going back to that 19-year-old Ephrain, I didn't even know I was a leader until that moment. Where and I tell you I was I was there eight years and I finally had to walk away because I don't know if I mentioned this, but when I was talking to you, the uh HR then just became CEO. She had no leadership skills. Sorry if she watches this. Oh no. But she looked at me and said when I said, "Hey, I want to do more. I ran five to six different stores. I'm running a million-dollar Subway inside of a science center. I just did Undercover Boss. I looked really good in it, you know, for the company." And she says, "I waited 25 years for my opportunity. You have to wait your order." Yeah. I'm like, "Yeah, what?" But I learned these leadership skills and I remember the gentleman that worked at the actual headquarters in

[41:46]  Connecticut. He says, "Man, Ephrain, you're a rock star. If my son grows up to be anything like you, I'll be a happy father. Yes. Those moments resonate with me because I wasn't hearing this at home. I didn't know that I had these skills. Yeah. Someone gave me an opportunity to go run a store and and what was the funniest thing, I remember me just being such a hotthead. He um I said, "Hey, I'm not manager yet, but I'm doing all the manager work." And he comes to the store, it's late at night.

[42:13]  He's yelling at me about something. And I'm like, "I'm doing schedule. I'm doing inventory. I'm ordering food. And he looked at me, he says, "My 11-year-old daughter can do it, but you're doing it right." And I'm like, I But it was such a like correct thing to say. You are a manager. You are a leader. Are you doing it right? And I was always willing to I was a sponge. As much as I was hard-headed, I was taking all the right things, you know, to put me where I am today in front of people like Dr.

[42:44]  Williams. These conversations don't happen if I didn't see it within myself. You all reached out to me. Yeah. Right. So, yeah, you took the No, I I just I want to name that just because I think it's a very it's a powerful thing. And one of the I used to run a a girl a leadership development program for young people in New York and Brooklyn. And um it was to address um sexual health and you know, also risk behaviors is how I phrased it in the work. But basically, I didn't want them to have themselves out there too early. Uh cuz it's psychosocial, emotional, it's also health, and it's all these other pieces.

[43:18]  And depending on what's going on for you, your self-esteem could put you in situations if it's not healthy, that are not good for you, have longl lasting impact, right? Um and one of the things that I would always say to the girls and and you know, and when I talked about it was that you know, part of this is that we want to ensure that be above all else, we are leaders of ourselves. And so what I hear from you, and you call it hard-headed, I call it leadership skills. I call it having a, you know, that's calling me. You know, I agree. I agree with you. Yeah. Yeah. Whenever my niece or nieces or my nephew are like being a little ab obsent, I'm like, "Look at the president. Look at the president." And they're my sib, you know, my siblings are always like, "Yeah, okay. You don't have to live with the president." But the idea is that there's a lot of potential there.

[44:03]  There's a person there who knows their mind. There's a person there who has thought about something. ask them what's going on that you know I was discontented right you said I was disgruntled you know I was discontented but it's because I had an idea about what should be happening you had an idea about what should be happening and and what your future could be and you were told to wait 25 years or whatever ridiculous amount of time for that you know I've had the same thing even I've had folks tell me like oh I thought that you could get that job uh you know that you'd be great as this and they were seeing the this as the position that they had and I was Oh, okay. And then like five years later, I'm way above that because my vision for me is something different. But it's not just my vision for me. I really believe that we're responding to something much larger than ourselves. And it's not about that job or that role. It's about

[44:52]  where you need to be to uplift and exact on that vision and that mission for your life. It's not about that job. But if that job or that role puts you in a position where you have that microphone in front of you and that audience, then that's where you need to be. And that that's what I really believe.

[45:09]  Okay. So, I'm I'm almost wrapping this up, but I like these questions because I always love your answer. I keep telling you this. I already This is gonna be great. If you walk into a room and you want to know if a company has great leadership, okay, what's the first thing you actually look for? Um h I look for whether or not the janitorial staff are smiling and happy.

[45:30]  Tell me why. Tell me why. Because they have to clean the True. That is That's Yes. Okay. You know what? I'm just We We got to move on. This is This is good. This is true. That is so true though. You know it. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. I I can see that. And And so many people can take that however they want to take that. But they can. Yeah. I like We already both said we're a little bit fiery, so it's that part that part that part.

[45:58]  Can an organization really thrive without a strong leader or is that a myth? I think that organizations have many strong leaders and that's one of the mistake of many organizations is that they think it's in one person and if but if they really are are are worth their salt and really you know are going to be able to cut through then a good leader is always cultivating all the leaders and everybody is one and it's not special to any one person. A good leader is always looking for how to cultivate, build, even convince their staff and their and their their their direct reports where their leadership capacity is and is always pushing them just to be a little bit more self authenticated, authorized, um, independent, um, and someone who can trust their own thinking and be, uh,

[46:45]  have practice and support in developing the skill set of trusting their thinking and and their expertise. I don't believe in just puffing people up, you know. Um, anybody who knows me will tell you that I have no problem telling you the truth, you know, like that wasn't good. Let's talk about how we can get it good, though, right? But the other side of that, too, is no organization is helped by everybody looking to one person to tell them which way to go. We got to all know which way we're going. What's the vision and mission of this place? And then we can all get information from our particular corners.

[47:17]  We can all play our corner knowing where we're going. So good leader provides the vision and the support, but every there are leaders all throughout an organization if you're smart. Yeah. Yeah. No, I do 100% agree. Okay. Um and some people they don't sometimes others don't see that and those great leaders end up walking away. They walk away like that person let you walk away. That's right. Yeah. 100% 100%. They could have promoted you and made more money off off of your innovation. Yeah. But they did not do that. It the craziest thing I remember one lady said, "Oh, he'll be back. You'll be back." No, he's not. Let me tell you, I was a hotthehead I was. Right. So, I knew So, let me tell you how I walked away from this. Okay. I gave it to God.

[47:59]  Yeah. And he gave me a sign. So, I remember I still remember like it was yesterday. This was like 15 years ago. And I um I prayed for a sign that morning. It was like 7 something in the morning. And my supervisor is showing up. Okay. Never showed up that early. I'm like, the hell is he doing here? So, he was here to give me my um my quarterly review. Okay, a great review. I was always top in my in my, you know, district. So, it wasn't nothing expected, but I'm like, that's that was my sign. I had no idea what I was doing next. He went outside to take a phone call. I'm on the computer typing up my my two weeks. And I said, "Hey, man. This is going to hurt me more than it's going to hurt you." Because it was I was walking away from something that was very 5050 $60,000 a year. And I was 20 something years old. Big deal, you know. Yeah. So, um, I walked away from it, but I also knew that I was winning,

[48:48]  I think it was like customer service of the year award. So, before I'm I'm getting this award before I'm actually leaving on my way out. So, we have this big meeting. It's like a Michael Jordan moment right there on top. Yeah. Yeah. Pretty good. So, uh, 120 something managers. It was a pretty big franchise. 120 some, you know, stores. All the managers show up and I go get my award. And normally you just, you know, take your award and go.

[49:12]  I took the award. Again, this was the young version of me. I took the award and the mic and I said, "This is for those that said that I wasn't going to amount to something. For those that say that I'm going to be back, I'm not going to be back." Nor will I wait my 25 years and that's just how I left it. Very good. And the owner, the CEO is looking like we actually went to the bathroom.

[49:36]  He's looked like everything's okay. I'm like, you have people on your team that this is how they're talking to others. I'm going to walk away and you know I never went back. Even when they asked me to come back at a higher I just wouldn't. I wouldn't. Oh, we can keep talking. But listen, good. Oh, I love that story. We're about to end here.

[49:52]  Yes. I got one more question and then we got the fire question. What's one book, podcast, or resource that you think every leader should check out? Uh, oh gosh. How to put you on the spot. I know you had a good one. How to put you on the spot. Like, oh gosh. You know, I got it. It's the four agreements. Um, have you heard of this book? I haven't. The four agreements by Don Miguel. Oh gosh.

[50:19]  Um, you did put me by Don Miguel Ruiz. Uh, I love that book. And yeah, okay. You did catch me off guard. That's the book. That's the book. She a know what else to say. Get to the hot question right here. This this happened from another leader. Um, I always love these questions and his question was one value. What's one value you didn't u know was actually important? One value that you maybe young people would instill in you, but you didn't know was important until that I didn't know was important. I know he he stumped me that I did not know was important. Yeah, I I would say that I did I have

[51:09]  underestimated the value the importance of uh true intim uh empathy and relationship like really seeking to understand. No rebuttal just ask the question receive what they say. Yeah 100%. I like that. And what is your uh blind question for the next leader? The my Yeah, I that was a hard question that that leader gave me. Uh uh um who was it? I have to think who it was. Oh gosh. Yeah, they I was like I got stumped. I think the question what would I say I the question that I would ask the next person is what does it mean for you to lead authentically as yourself?

[51:57]  I knew you gonna have a good one. I knew you gonna listen to Wendy. If people wanted to find you and just kind of connect with you, where can they find you? Um, well, I do have a website. It's Dr. Wendy Williams.com. So, d r n d i w i l l i.com. I'm also on Instagram. Um, I like to post things from there from time to time or just different events and things that we have going on. So, you can find me there.

[52:26]  Wendy, this has truly been a master class um in leadership and in psychology and we talked about some AI. So, I I truly thank you for just taking your time and doing this with us here on the Heart of Hustle podcast and hope that this is actually not the last. Thank you for the impact that you make. Keep hustling, keep leading, and we'll see you on the next episode. Thank you. Bye.

[52:47]  Look at that guys.