How Overcoming Personal Trauma Inspired a New Model for Mental Health and Justice

[0:16]  Welcome back to another episode here on the Heart and Holster Podcast. We got Doctor Lewis in the building. What's up, mister?

[0:21]  Hello, how's it going?

[0:23]  Good man. I'm super excited to be here with you to be able to talk so much more about just the healthcare in general. But first off, just let people know what is the organization you represent.

[0:23]  Yeah, I represent Arcus Behavioral Health and Wellness. We are a five one C three nonprofit community mental health agency based in Chicago.

[0:23]  Love it, man. How'd you get into that?

[0:23]  well, I worked nonprofits, about five nonprofits prior. And I part of it is I haven't really liked the way a lot of nonprofits are run. I think that a lot of nonprofits have a lot of altruistic values. and that sometimes you question the decisions made by the leadership. And what I have found is

[0:23]  Mm.

[1:12]  It can be a bit exploitative of altruism. And people kind of go into these, you know, places really wanting to help people and then find that it's at great personal cost. And so my goal was to sort of like find best of both worlds where we have this mission. we reorganize values that are focused on, you know, the the mission and not self-interest, because in capitalism, there's an inherent self-interest value. That can get in the way of our you know, social interests.

[1:45]  Mm. without I mean, obviously naming some people, what what are some of the experiences that you've probably encountered in the journey?

[1:52]  well, I mean a lot, you know. I think yeah, not naming many places. I think though if I share some of the examples, it will resonate probably with with a lot of your listeners in general. sort of like laying people off who have been there more senior and bringing on new people because it can pay them less. that's probably a common one. maybe having an office in like

[1:55]  Mm.

[2:20]  you know, downtown, even though that's not really our target population. And you're sort of wondering why, you know, why do we have this office? you know. I mean, and then the general typical nonprofit experience of low salaries, low compensation, you know, high caseloads, especially in mental health.

[2:41]  Love it. And and why did you choose mental health out of when you talk about nonprofit? What what got you into mental health?

[2:49]  Yeah. I was a pre-med student and was minoring in in psychology and was sort of working full time and in undergrad. and at some point I was struggling with some of the the coursework because also working and also I was also a foster parent, long story. but and then I switched to psychology as a major and sociology as a minor. And actually found I really enjoyed sociology more than psychology, honestly. But you don't get paid, you know, to do sociology work unless you want to be a teacher or something, a professor, you know. so I sort of pursued the degree in psychology and went back working in banking. And and I was like, yeah, I really I'm not about the banking life anymore either. And so I was like, you know, I'm gonna try to use my degree, which with a a bachelor's in psychology, you can do Basically nothing, you know. and so I was working at a non my first nonprofit, doing like case management. And I do speak Spanish. And I was working with a number of residents that were undocumented, pending cases. These were minors. And one of my co-workers there was going to grad school in Chicago, and she's like, Why don't you become a therapist? And I'm like, Huh. I mean, I do like Frazier at the time. and yeah, maybe I could do that, maybe I could pursue that. And so I applied for the doctorate and didn't get into it, I got into the master's program. finished that, got my license, and was able to transfer into the doctor program, and here we are. Yeah.

[4:36]  Yeah. Wow. And did you did you have the I guess the foundation built for you already to go to school and and get an education? It like did parents already kind of say this is the path you're going, or you just realize this is how we're going to kind of get to the next level?

[4:53]  Like my own parents? Okay. no, I'm no, I wouldn't say I've had that kind of backing, honestly. my my family, you know, we were on food stamps at a younger age. if anything, even to get through undergrad, I had to like get financial independence, going through financial aid department and sort of like share my trauma story of like why I deserve to be independent so that I don't include my parents' income. My parents were

[5:11]  Mm-hmm.

[5:29]  Yeah, we'll see how the public this gets. But the kind of people are like, well, your educ your education only benefits you, you know. so why should we contribute to any of that? You know. I'm a firstborn, you know. So I think for me, I was the first in my family to to go to college and actually get a degree. but no, I don't think that was my my parents. if anything, I was trying to be different. There you go. There you go.

[5:48]  Trying to break the cycle. I mean, that's ideally, yeah, breaking the cycle, man. I wanna kinda go back. You mentioned foster parents. Obviously, me being in the system myself. What what what what got you into that, man?

[6:00]  Yeah. my goodness, what a story. and I did it twice too. I part of it was when I was an undergrad, I was taking child psychology and a sociology class. the sociology was sociology of gender, which I was love that shit. I'm very fascinated about gender socialization. And part of the requirement for the child psychology class.

[6:14]  Mm-hmm.

[6:29]  was to do some sort of like internship working with kids. And so I I did an internship working at this place called the Child Abuse Council in Florida. And because I was also taking the sociology class, I was particularly fascinated about how childcare faculty socialize kids into gender sort of norms and how they may reward kids that adhere To gender norms and they say things like, are those your are those your pigtails? they're so cute. And you you sort of like reinforce that. And then they punish kids that deviate from gender norms. So boys are playing with girl things. And it was meant to be an observational study. And I did, I did complete it, but I have always loved kids. and you know, I my the director came to me and she's like, you know, would you like to like become a preschool teacher? And I'm like, wow, maybe I don't know. But does there what's the training involved? and so and then I guess in Florida the the requirements are really low. and so I had to get some sort of like, you know, certification or something. It was like a 40 week, 40 a 40 hour training thing, wasn't even that crazy. And and so then I got a job working there with a lot of these kind of kids that come from rather underprivileged homes.

[7:13]  Ha ha ha.

[7:58]  And got very attached to a couple of the kids. and you know, basically got involved in that path. It wasn't like the official foster care system. In Florida at the time, it was against the law for gay people to to adopt. I believe that has changed, hopefully. but that wasn't actually a legal path for people like me.

[8:15]  Hmm. Wow. I how times have changed though, you you just mentioned. What are you learning from those experiences? You said you fostered two kids. What are you learning through that journey?

[8:32]  what did I learn? well I mean that it is really hard to be in the system. I think there are a lot of kids that really just want to be loved, you know? And I think that I don't think I had the awareness at the time. I think now I look back and I'm like, what was in the way of that? And I I attribute that to patriarchy. I I attribute that to a society that doesn't put relationships first, puts our things first, you know. I think at the time, I don't think I had those insights. But yeah, but I actually have worked in child welfare since. I mean, years later, I worked at a child welfare agency in foster care, and I was the clinical director. and oversaw all the therapists and not only the therapists that work with the kids, but even the parents who had to do things in order to get their kids back. So I was sort of responsible for all the clinical functions there. It is hard work. Hard work, yeah.

[9:10]  Got it. And fast for yeah, yeah. Fast forward today, you're leading your own organization. What are some of the things and services that you guys are providing?

[9:49]  so our agency is you know, we've a kind of a unique business model. I think that I was trying to find best of both worlds. a lot of mental health is funded through insurance, but not everybody has insurance. And what you'll often find is that people that, you know, don't have to use insurance. And they can pay out of pocket, they have access to a different kind of quality of care. They can talk about depression, but they also can talk about existential questions. They could talk about drag race. And they don't have to prove anything to anybody, you know, in terms of establishing what's called medical necessity, which is sort of an arbitrary kind of concept developed by insurance companies that. People have to prove that they deserve this treatment. And so that means people who don't have to use insurance and they can pay out of pocket, they have access to a wholly different type of health care. And it becomes a social justice issue because disproportionately, those are white people, cisgender, straight white people that have access to a different kind of quality of care. And everyone else has to prove their deserving. And so

[10:30]  Mm-hmm.

[11:11]  Our mission is to sort of bridge access to a different kind of quality of care. and that's not just focused on making people less miserable, but improving quality of life and well being. And so we work with all people. Yeah.

[11:30]  Yeah. I was talking to my mother in law about this whole having insurance and not. and I think people don't understand that even if you don't have insurance, you there's still it's actually to me I found this cheaper at times. so what is your thoughts on that, man? The whole not having insurance, being able to pay out of pocket idea versus going get insurance, having the deductible, having to meet the deductible, like Clearly you you have a stance it looks like on on on what that looks like.

[12:03]  Healthcare is a human right. It should not be tied to employment. I think the whole make people work for Medicaid is absolute awful policy. I think that everyone is entitled to be treated with dignity. And that includes access to treatment and and health care. Yeah.

[12:28]  Mm. Yeah. How long have you been doing this? Your your own thing now, Doctor?

[12:33]  I started Arcus in twenty seventeen. But I've been yeah, I've been but I've been a therapist since two thousand eight.

[12:37]  Wow, almost ten years now. You know, I graduate high school's other than a doctor.

[12:43]  my goodness, you make me son.

[12:49]  No man, I love it. I think you really talk about a lot of things. obviously being adopted, there is those things that I've had to experience. The sexual abuse. I think I mentioned it to you on on our first call. and even to this day, just having literally a conversation with my wife the other day, I still deal with all that trauma. And it is so hard, you know, sometimes to you mentioned it. I think some of the things I've experienced was feeling unseen.

[13:55]  Yeah. Yeah.

[14:00]  Unloved, you know, obviously through the sexual abuse is something that doesn't go away. Happened for years, you know, it could be smells, it could be those things that come back. So I think it is it's something that a lot of people experience and may not talk about and then may feel that they can't get the help because of everything you just mentioned. Right. what is the stigma around seeing a therapist and getting the help? I think so many people we we've grew up in places where we didn't talk about this at home.

[14:05]  Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

[14:10]  Right. And then you don't talk about it out in public because now you feel the shame to do so. I think I for a long time I wasn't I didn't talk about it I was twenty some years old because of the feeling if someone would look at my my sexuality be different. Right. what is your thoughts on that, man?

[14:15]  Mm-hmm. Yeah. Well, if I could just take a moment and just acknowledge what a model you are. You know, even sharing what you just did, you know, that is a testament, probably of your own growth, that you're able to kind of like share this, you know, with with a large audience. And and it says that you're actively, you know, have been working, you know, on this. And part of trauma, trauma is not what happens to you.

[14:20]  Mm. Thank you. Appreciate it.

[14:26]  It's what happens inside of you. You know? And so the hijacking, the avoidance, you know, the not wanting to go there, that's that's trauma. People think trauma is like, this happened and this happened. No, no, no. See, that's those are traumatic things that happened. But trauma is is sort of like what lives in my nervous system. And how does it come out? How does it affect

[15:40]  Right. Mm.

[15:41]  My body, how does it affect the way I see myself? How I relate to myself, how I relate to others? The sort of like cynicism that people can have, the skewing, you know? So and it's generally not super courageous, you know. So, like the fact that you're able to kind of go there, you know, good for you. But and that actually also answers your question, which is more people normalizing it, more people talking about it.

[15:43]  Yeah. I I would tell you it's what gets me through it. just recently, this past Friday, I I felt like there was I don't know why. I mean, I felt like there's growth happening in my life. And in order for me to not lose myself in this growth, there's things to talk about. and I've realized early on, because of sharing something as simple as being adopted, right? had the opportunity to do that on national TV through on the cover boss.

[15:44]  Mm-hmm. Yeah. Okay.

[15:46]  and this is like early Facebook days, but seeing that people were reaching out, like, thank you for just being that voice. when I started talking about sexual abuse, that I was peep people that were 10, 20 years older than me telling their stories for the first time, I realized it wasn't even about me, Doctor. You know, it's about those that are still struggling internally, that have not shared their story and feel like they're a, you know, like they're maybe the problem when in reality they're not. so a lot of the times, man.

[16:00]  Mm. Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

[16:14]  when that weight is on my shoulders and I was I am able to tell that story, I think it really does help me because there's somebody on the other side. And I always go to like we think representation as male and a female, right? A man, man, but it it's really the stories that we tell, realizing that a lot more people than we know are going through this. You know, so I think that's what gets me over it. makes me tell that story is realizing that it's not even about me.

[16:29]  Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

[16:44]  It's that I tell this story and the other person feels comfortable enough to share something they've never shared with anybody and what that does for them internally, to realize like, I'm not alone in this world. Do you agree? That's why we should tell more stories and we should be more open.

[17:26]  Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, I do. And also relationships are everything. I have my own model of therapy, and and it's all about how to foster healthy relationships. One of the better predictors of if someone goes on to develop PTSD is not the traumatic event. It's do you have people who have emotional access to you? That you're able to really share, for them to actually give a shit about your emotional experience, to attend to it, or are you alone? That is sort of the predictor if you go on to get PTSD. It really does come down to relationships, not preventing the events themselves.

[18:09]  Mm-hmm. How do people that I guess are dealing with this internally? How do they start to share that story? How do they because there's a lot of walls that are being put up because of their life experiences, right? And it's very hard to say something and not feel judged. What do you say they start?

[18:52]  Yeah, well, I would say they need to be the thing that they are, you know, wanting. You know, and so when part of this model I've been working on is what does healthy sound like? What does it feel like? I have this concept called relational self-leadership. And what that means is it's sort of like not only how we relate to ourselves and our own parts, but how do we relate to other people's parts, you know, and and can we, you know, let our core Drive. The core of us is compassionate, connected, curious. How do you know that's the core? Because that's what young kids are. They're curious, they're compassionate, they're needy, they're unapologetically authentic. Young kids, of course. And then it gets like, you know, figuratively or literally beaten out of them. And you know, that's what we're trying to like let drive. Not these protector parts, not these parts that are like, I don't want to take that risk. You know, what if, you know? and I would say that part of the work is for us to be that person, that kind, responsive person who responds to emotions with curiosity, with validation, who's mindful about their own judgmental parts. And then when you are doing that and you are actively, you know, embodying that. And you're also getting feedback. Hey, how is your experience of me? How is that how you're experiencing me? You know, are my am I responding to your emotions with curiosity and validation? Especially our primary relationships. Well, now you can have higher expectations of those around you. And when you interview with people who can't do that, who respond with judgment or contempt, and they're like, who does that? You know, whatever it is. You know that's more about them.

[19:35]  Mm hmm. Do you think that parents could be overprotective because of their own trauma?

[20:18]  yes. I think you know that too. okay, okay. No, yeah.

[20:21]  Yeah. I do, I do. I just you know, someone that's an expert, I can say it, but if it's coming for you, you're the doctor, not me. No, I I I do. you know, really something funny you th you mentioned. I wouldn't say funny, but you mentioned about boys. I have a I have a son and a daughter. Obviously I have my daughter first. So I have a five year old and a two year old. So my two year old looking at his sister wants to put on the mermaid dress, wants to be everything that his sister wants to be.

[20:33]  Okay, okay, nice. Mm.

[20:46]  ideally I could be the parent that says, You are not going to do that because you know, boys don't do that. But my son would, you know, we just came back from Arizona. He says, I miss my mermaid dress. I miss he has a little toy mermaid. And to me, I think a lot of times I could have gone based off my trauma and some of the things I've experienced and says no, because I don't want you to be XYZ. Right. But kind of to what you mentioned, if we sit here and then start to say

[21:00]  Aw. Yeah. Right. Yeah.

[21:15]  this don't do this, are they not going to kind of lean more into that because now they're like curious. You're talking about curiosity. Is is that is that where we at?

[21:27]  Mm-hmm. Gotcha. I think eventually, yeah. Yeah, I think eventually that you're gonna you're gonna rebel, you know, anyway. But but no, I think the core is also courageous. And I think that the that what you're talking about, these seven parts driving, including in parents, are worried parts. Actually, I have a story for you. This happened, this actually happened like a Christmas ago. I was at the toy store, and I

[21:39]  Mm-hmm.

[21:52]  it happened right in front of me. This maybe six-year-old boy goes to his mom. and he's like, Mom, mom, mom, look, look, look, look, look. And mom looked back and sort of shot this look of disgust. And she tells this boy, that is a girl's toy. Put that back. Okay. This is one of those like, I don't know, origin stories. where this child who's like, you know, driving in this core self is now fragmenting into parts. One of the parts is shame. What is shame? Shame is I'm being disconnected from. Mom, who's usually by my side, is now pushing me away. And responding with disgust. All right. And so what does he do with that shame? Well, he has this part now that's sort of questioning what am I doing that's causing? And by the way, he's young, developmentally egocentric, which means he's gonna take it personal. He's gonna think it's about him. So, what other things come up as a result of that? Well, now he has another part come up, a manager part. That's like, I better not say that. I better not share this. You know, I better not do that. He might have a worried part as well, right? And that will be the way he's gonna navigate his relationship with his mom going forward. He also might have a critical part starting activated, like, wow, what's wrong with me that I like this? That's gross. Mom's grossed out at you.

[22:46]  Mm-hmm.

[23:40]  Okay, let's not just focus on this kid. I mean, obviously it's so easy to, but mom is also having parts. Mom is also responding with parts. Mom has a part in that moment. yeah, maybe a disgusted part. But where does that come from? You know, probably her own experiences of disconnection or worry. Worry. What are people gonna say? my God. You know, if my child. Is he gonna be gay? Is he gonna be trans? You know? And this worried part is now driving. But there's origins to those as well, those parts, right? And her own experiences of being shamed. There's also this fear of being shamed that she also has.

[23:40]  Yeah.

[24:24]  And sometimes our parts are just interacting with each other. And what I'm saying, what leadership is, is you notice those parts, but you drive. What does that mean? The core of us is compassionate and curious and courageous and connected and wise and forgiving. Right. I know if they answered your question, but yes, yes.

[24:50]  How how I would say how did this all come about? Like clearly you're very passionate about this. You decided to give your life to this, right? To make sure that you can help the next person experience this. Because you're so right. Like that's how the walls start to really get created, right? When we talk about I mean one of the big biggest things for me being a father, not having a father, and being a father is that I wanted to always make sure I can be myself, allow someone to be themselves, and allow them to share anything and without shame. Right. as I was an early parent, I found myself telling my young child to use her voice, to speak up, to say what's on, you know, and realizing that I didn't do that in my life though.

[25:16]  Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yep. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Nice.

[25:43]  Right. So practicing what I preach. So I had to go back to my mother that raised me and tell her how I felt and how I felt alone and how she made me, you know, first time in my life. But I had to do it because who am I to tell someone to do this? And I couldn't do it. Right. And one of the things that she mentioned to me was like, I'm so sorry. I did the best I could with what I knew. At that moment, realizing that people just are not educated. They're just kind of ignorant to situations.

[25:57]  Mm-hmm. Okay. Yeah. Yep. Yep.

[26:11]  it could be they don't know resources exist for some of these things. Right. So, to me, I I I'm I'm learning what you're saying today. I'm I'm learning from you as well. But I can imagine there was things that that you've had to learn that got you to a point that says, This is what I want to do in my life. I want to create an organization around this. I want to create new models that actually work, or not just taking money from people and kind of keeping them in the system, but allowing them to grow from the system. I mean, where does that come from, Doctor?

[32:52]  Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Well. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, truly, it comes from experiences of healthy relationships. I I do I have I have two kids in my home. I don't know if I mentioned that. yep, four and a six year old, right now. just turned six. And I'm also married. And I think that part of my hope for people, this sounds a little

[39:33]  Mm-hmm.

[39:33]  funny perhaps. but I want people to have what I have with my husband.

[39:33]  Mm.

[40:22]  I want them to experience that deep sense of connection. That you feel like I don't know. I actually I'll tell you a quick story. I was getting dinner with our, and well, we'll see if this person watches this podcast. but I was getting dinner with a coworker who is our development director. And and they were saying to me, like, you know, Lewis. You don't have enough imagination because Arcas could be so big, it could be so huge, you know, it could be like the premier mental health agency, whatever. And I I didn't like the idea. I couldn't quite articulate why. You know, and so I went home and I was telling my husband about it. And saying, Yeah, you know, Tony thinks I should like, you know, we should like make Arcus huge and we should like, you know, so on and so forth. And my husband's like, Of course you don't want that. Of course you don't want to like get farther away from the work itself. Grow this agency so that you don't have real relationships with the people you work with. Be this different version of yourself. And my response was like, my God, you know me so well. And I actually wrote a chapter in my book about this from my experience of the power of being deeply known. of having a relationship where this person knows you more than you fucking know yourself. And they're able to articulate that. They're able to be say, I know, I see you. And that is also incidentally the only way we ever believe we're worthy. Because this person who knows me so well, they know all the things. They know all the ugly stuff, all the parts that we don't even want to wish we had or whatever. And they're still saying, you are worthy and you were loved.

[41:11]  Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

[42:00]  That is the only way we ever believe we're worthy. Yeah. Yeah. And a healthy relationship, there's a reciprocity there. You're doing that for each other. You're making that relationship your number one priority. And I know you're talking to me like all these accomplishments. No, the biggest accomplishment I have is my relationship. And that experience is what inspires me to have other people also have this.

[42:50]  Yeah. I love it. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

[43:39]  And actually, that's the core of my model of therapy as well, which is I want to have a real relationship with my client where they experience that care, they experience that emotional curiosity, and it raises the bar of what it can be like. But you're not just like, you know, I my what I won't want to happen is people leave the therapy session, be like, wow, Lewis is such a nice guy. No. I want to be like, wow, here's what he did, and here's what I need to do in my relationships. I need to be more curious. One more story for you. this whole like judgmental thing you had mentioned earlier, it's actually kind of relevant to therapy. One of my supervisees was saying to me one day that in supervision that she was feeling guilty because she was judging a client. I'm like, you know, were you explicitly judgmental? And she's like, no. And I'm like, okay. so were you having judgmental thoughts? And she's like, Yeah. I'm like, okay. And you were a good Christian and pure thoughts is what you needed to. And we laughed and so on and so forth. but then we got into a conversation about what is what what is the purpose of therapy here? You know, and and she's like saying, Well, the the way that we're trained, which is true, that you know, therapy is supposed to be this safe space, judgment free. I'm like, okay, yeah, sure. But is that because a therapist doesn't experience judgment? Or is it because they notice judgment, but they choose the relationship first? They don't let the judgmental part drive. And that's what makes it safe. You know? And then the goal is for clients to internalize that and do that shit in their own lives. So they don't let the judgmental part drive first. They choose the relationship first. They choose curiosity. They choose compassion. If they notice a critical part driving,

[44:28]  Mm-hmm.

[45:18]  They're like, hmm, you know what? That was a little critical. What was your experience of that? let me be curious towards this critical part. Maybe there's something I'm worried about. Maybe I care about you and I want to acknowledge it this way. And that is just the model that we have not experienced that we need. What do you think?

[46:07]  So good. So good. A lot of a lot of things that you're saying is like I can really relate. The judging, right? Literally recently I someone asked me a question about my wife and I said, she never judged me for who I am, right? You mentioned all these stories, like I was almost a faucet to her and almost dropped everything at her front door. And one of the things she said before we even got together, even if we don't work out, I still want to help you overcome some of these things.

[46:56]  Mm-hmm. Hmm. Okay. Yeah.

[47:46]  I still want to make sure that you're good in life. Of course, I married her because of those exact words. But she also loved me more than I loved myself at the time at that moment. Right. She helped me overcome a lot of these things. And then so recently, when I talk about last week, someone asked me, you know, said that to me. And I remember saying, She never judged me. And I had to remember that. And I told there's some more things that, and she's like, I already knew that.

[47:46]  Yeah. You know, okay. Mm. Yeah.

[47:46]  Because I don't know if you know, you told me some of these things, but I was also reading between the lines, right? But I was still carrying on thinking the pressure like, what would she think of me? Right. So it it is when you when one, we have to be open in our relationships. Because the reason sometimes we can't overcome things is because we're in our own way, because we're holding on to things that are really not even us. It was the past version of us. It was that young version of us. It was the the

[47:46]  Mm. Okay. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Right. Mm-hmm. Yep. Yep. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Mm-hmm.

[47:46]  the the trauma that it that we have that we're still holding on to that ideally wasn't our fault, but we feel that, you know, it it was us and people are going to judge. So I mean, you're dead on, bro. I I love everything that you're saying because I can relate to them. And and I do well every time I speak to other couples, I I do hope that they can also not just and I've seen this in some friends where they get mad at eat one another and they won't talk to each other, right? In in for weeks. You know, how good is that in the relationship?

[47:46]  Mm-hmm. Yep. Yeah. Hmm. No. No, it's not.

[47:46]  Right. Let's talk through it. Let's let's figure out why are we at this point in our lives. and pe so I I think you're good. Let's talk about this book though, man. This book you got a book out, Doctor?

[47:46]  Yeah. Yeah. Causes, yeah. Okay. Yeah. Well, it's not out. It's it's a model I've been working on. and I'm putting it into a book. and the purpose is is to put into words what I do with my clients, you know. these are not all original ideas. I'm sort of taking from different models, but with a re a newer purpose.

[47:46]  Mm-hmm.

[47:46]  Which is sort of like, how do I foster healthy relationships? What does healthy look like and feel like? You know? and what gets in the way of these things? I think one of the problems with mental health among many, is we make it a very individual experience, probably because of our cultural values of like, you know, individualism and whatnot. Self-determination, very American. But truly, our health is is inherently tied. To our relationships. There is no mental health without healthy relationships. Full stop. But that's not what insurance companies pay for. Insurance companies are gonna pay for you to be functional, less depressed, so you can get back out there and work for the white man and make him money. You know, it's not about, yeah, yeah, it's not collective well-being. You know? and so I've been trying to put together

[47:46]  Mm. True. Stay in the system per se. Mm-hmm.

[47:46]  Sort of synthesizing these different things. One of the things that I have been sort of talking about, I have a TikTok channel, I've been doing a of these videos lately on caste and racism and patriarchy and how those things get in the way of fostering healthy relationships, not just with my partner, but with my neighbor, with immigrants who are being hunted, you know, and the lack of compassion and curiosity that we have, that we show.

[47:46]  Mm-hmm.

[47:46]  The sort of like hierarchy of groups and castes that we have. We have our own caste system here where we are not curious. The burden of curiosity is on the most marginalized. They need to understand the people with more power. But people have more power don't have to give a shit about anyone beneath them. You know? And so it's much more a model about relational health. And it's not just about how to do therapy.

[47:46]  Mm-hmm.

[47:46]  Although the power I have is, you know, what does it look like in the therapy room? Research says that therapists have a higher divorce rate than the general public, which is kind of crazy. and my goal is to like, no, no, no, but I actually like want to have healthy relationships with my clients, with my employees, with my husband, with my kids. You know, I believe we have to lead and not just like intervene and Like do the little like, you know, do this thing and blah blah blah. You know what I mean? Yeah.

[47:46]  Yeah. What you mentioned values when you started that. What are your values today?

[47:46]  Well, that's probably a a theme of a lot of the videos I've been doing recently, which is I believe that healthy is reorganizing values, which is a little radical because the way therapists are trained is we're not supposed to impose values on clients. In fact, it's literally in the American Counseling Association Code of Ethics, which is you don't impose your values on clients. But I just think that is utter bullshit. Because I think we're gonna do it. If you're trying to get your client to be curious towards their emotions, you are imposing a value. You're saying emotions have value, they're important. That's imposing a value. Now I understand why that ethic came to be, because there are certain values that can be harmful, like puritanical, purity cultural values. Yeah. So I understand why it came to be, but I think it is missing a lot of nuance.

[47:46]  Mm-hmm.

[47:46]  I believe healthy is the active, mindful reorganizing of values. And putting healthy relationships first. If you look at like the anti-racism movement and you understand racism, capitalism and the values of capitalism is at the core of racism. It is self-interest. And so we have to actively choose to put relationships over self in a healthy relationship, whether it's with my partner or my staff, my organization, or my society. That's what I mean by that.

[47:46]  As a leader, who's pouring into you? I know your husband is one, your kid's another, but who's while the noise is getting loud, who's really just pouring into Dr. Lewis to make sure that he's because you're a therapist, but a therapist needs a therapist. A therapist needs someone that they can go to. Who's that for you?

[47:46]  Yeah. It's my husband. Part of my model, and this is a bit of a belief of mine, is that a healthy relationship promotes growth. And in my opinion, and I don't know if this is a thing, but we'll see. the ideal is to have a primary relationship that feels therapeutic. You want your partner to sort of, you how like maybe you don't know this, but a lot of therapists are trained that you don't do therapy with friends and family. I think that's bullshit. Now, maybe in a psychoanalytic way of like, I'm not gonna do all that. You know, but but what I will do is I'm gonna be real, I'm gonna be emotionally curious, I'm gonna be introspective and vulnerable. And if that is what doing therapy is, well, yeah, absolutely we need to be doing that.

[47:46]  Yeah.

[47:46]  With our kids, with our partners. And the curiosity is the primary vehicle of that growth. And so I need a I need to be curious and have high expectations of curiosity towards me. I can't ask for what I'm not willing to give. And and through that curiosity and making connections, there's also this compassion piece of like, hmm, I'm kind of wondering about this. I'm wondering about if this is helpful to you. You know, and so you're growing. And there's plenty of times where that's been the case with me and stuff I've had to like, you know, I've also experienced sexual abuse, you know, and my own experience of like, this is coming up. And needing my husband to be curious, holding space, holding me accountable, perhaps, when my parts are driving and they're causing harm. The things that kept me safe in more shitty relationships are now causing harm in new relationships. Yeah. Yeah. But it goes back and forth.

[47:46]  Mm-hmm. Yeah, I hear you. I I literally just told my wife that. Yeah, yeah. I literally told my wife that. There's those things that you not you per se, but maybe myself we're we're doing in those quiet times that were created by those moments of hurt and pain that ideally are not good for me or good for my relationship. and you don't even realize it until someone holds you accountable, right? Because it becomes the norm to you. But when someone does, of course it probably

[47:47]  Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Yep.

[47:47]  Like, what do mean? You know, and you you automatically want to get to that point, but realizing, wait, they may be on to something. And when you really start to think about it and you work on it, you do see the benefit of it in your relationship. So, I mean, Dr. Lewis, you dropping gems in this conversation. I I truly do appreciate you being as open and honest a as you've been, man. What are some of the things that you're just most as we start to wrap up, what are the things that you're most

[47:47]  Yeah. Whoosh. Yeah. man. Yeah.

[47:48]  just happy about that you've been able to accomplish since starting this new journey and this new agency that you've created.

[47:48]  Well, I want to answer that. Maybe I can tie it into another quick point, if I may. because you had mentioned being a parent, and I it's a good example of like the growth. I think that having children is is quite a test of self-compassion. And and part of it is the things that we have historically disliked about ourselves can manifest in our kids.

[47:49]  Yeah.

[47:49]  And the way that we've historically related to ourselves can be projected onto our kids. Now the example I have is sensitivity. My six-year-old, who is biologically my child, is very sensitive. And she feels those feelings very deeply. And so did I and do I. Now, as a male, I've gotten different messages about that. And then, you know, recently, actually it was probably a couple years ago, so it's not recent, but I had a situation where I was like really in my shame space of like, ugh, I hate feeling my feelings so deep. I hate being so sensitive. And my husband, who is very kind and curious and is like, you know, trying to be helpful, he pointed out our child. And he's like, look at this child. She feels those feelings so deeply. You know, she's sort of slow to warm. But when she loves, she loves her whole heart, whole heart. When people leave, she feels that grief. She feels that loss. Are you gonna shame her for that? Are you gonna make her feel bad about feeling that way? And I'm like, ugh. Like that makes so much fucking sense. And I'm like, ugh, it's a lesson for me.

[47:49]  Yeah.

[47:49]  You know, also in this. and that's just an example of how our partner who has our best interests, but requires us to have humility to listen to. Yeah. Anyway, yeah.

[47:49]  I I love it. For those that may be struggling mentally, that are watching this, listening this, and really want to start the journey of finding themselves, their authentic selves, where do they start?

[47:49]  Mm. Mm. Well, I would say if there are any relationships where you feel a bit more authentic, a bit have that chemistry, you know, where you feel like you can be a bit more yourself, that would be a good place to start and sort of like lean into that, be able to talk about the relationship, whether it's a friend, a coworker, maybe a partner, someone you know you're seeing. be curious about their experience. What is your experience of our relationship? We will talk about a relationship, it's a big part of it. And I think being that the thing that they want. I mean, we want someone to be curious, we want someone to be engaged and responsive and accessible, but we gotta be those things, you know, and so if you have that relationship, that is. The experimental space to really try to be a bit more real, emotionally honest, emotionally authentic. I don't mean like, because I I did get fired from a philosophy professor once about authenticity. He's like, what is authentic anyway? And I'm like, God, here we go. but like emotional authenticity. You know, that you're really owning your emotional impact and experience.

[47:49]  Ha ha ha.

[47:49]  You know, I don't mean letting the critical parts drive in total radical honesty. That's not the ideal, you know. but this person cares about my emotional experience and I care about theirs. And you lean into that and you try to replicate that. Whether it's with your coworkers or if you're an employer, you try to be the thing that you need. That's the leadership. That's that's relational self-leadership ultimately.

[47:49]  How about we talk about the other side? The individual that realizes someone needs that, but maybe there's some walls up. How do you approach that?

[47:49]  Whew, I mean, probably take another hour on that one. But I mean, well, because you know, it some people are, you know, you can be accessible. You can be, I mean, I can't even tell you how many times I've had a job interview with somebody like, my god, that interview changed my life. And I'm like, okay, sure, Jan. but like sometimes that small interaction allows people to have that experience and that can plant a seed. But I mean, you're sort of like living your authenticity.

[47:49]  Ha ha ha.

[47:49]  And you're sort of giving a model, you know? And some people are not gonna like that by the way. People are threatened by authenticity. Some people have those fake parts driving hardcore. And when you're authentic, they're like, what's wrong with this person? See, like that. I mean, that can that could be very polarizing. but when you're ground okay, I forgot one of the C's in the core is confident. There's a confidence in the core, unapologetically authentic in terms of emotional honesty, right?

[47:49]  Absolutely.

[47:50]  and so you have that grounded and you're you're a model for people. And and you you're not necessarily trying to help them. We don't want our helper part to drive necessarily. I mean you can, but that's not the goal. The goal is connection, not to help. Which that's actually that I'll just stop change therapy right now. It's not about helping, it's about connecting.

[47:51]  Mm-hmm. You know, one thing that you mentioned is confident. And I think early on in my life, people would say, You're so cocky. And my response to them was, No, I'm confident. Right? There's a difference. And I think that people could definitely look at confidence and think you're full of yourself. But that's because they struggle to be confident and authentic with themselves. So when someone else may come across, you know, as this confident person to them, it just seems as that have you ever experienced that on your own?

[47:52]  Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yep. Right. Yeah. Mm-hmm. my goodness. Don't give me stuff. no, I get it. I get well, you know what? I'm I'm 6'4. I'm a firstborn. I have a lot of privilege. You know, and I don't want to make it sound like confidence is a personal choice. Caste also plays a role into confidence.

[47:53]  I mean, I'm trying to I'm trying to let you go, but you're just dropping so much good stuff that we gotta keep going. We gotta keep going.

[47:55]  People are socialized to believe they're better or worse than other people. And it's not a coincidence that the most confident are the most privileged. You know? so I'm not trying to absolve me like, well, you gotta be more confident. Okay, first off, you know, people can internalize that inferiority. You know, a lot of my confidence that I have, I didn't just choose. So that's that's part of it. I mean, I I'm a male. We have a society that props men up to be caught, they're rewarded for confidence, you know? And so it's not it's a personal choice. I wouldn't want to like make it sound like complete self-determination. But I will say that a young child does have a level of confidence. No one year old is worried about being a burden.

[48:20]  Yeah, yeah.

[48:49]  You know, they're they're gonna confidently tell you what they're thinking and feeling. Yeah.

[48:55]  No filter, you're right. Doctor Lewis, I thank you so much for your time, man. What can people find more more information on what you're doing? you mentioned social. So what is that social, TikTok wise, maybe other ones, but also the website, people can really look and into more of these services that you're providing.

[49:21]  Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. we actually provide services across 43 states. Forgot to mention that. So we actually can work with people almost across United States, including including Florida. and I have the Arcus Behavioral Health dot com. That's the main website, ARCUS behavioral health.com. so you can learn more about us there. I'm on TikTok at DrP Lewis V Haynes. and you'll see a lot of content on there and a lot expanding probably some of the things we talked about today.

[49:47]  Love it. Well, Dr. Lewis, thank you so much for your time. Thank you so much for being authentically you. bringing literally authentically yourself to this podcast because that's really what we love to do is talk to leaders that are genuinely themselves. A lot of times, and you know, people like to put on a mask. Under that mask, there's still so much hurt, there's still so much pain, and then they put that on others. clearly you've been able to work on yourself and realize it's not even about you. It's about the person that's across from me, making sure that they could live the life that I've been able in in your case, you've been able to experience.

[50:02]  likewise. Hmm. Yeah.

[50:17]  And I love that. I love that about you. And if you guys are still watching, listening, whatever that may look like, make sure you guys check out Dr. Lewis on TikTok so you can see more of this content on a daily basis. I'm Efrain. This is Dr. Lewis. And we'll catch you on the next one. Later.

[50:29]  Thank you.