How Renee Brown Is Reshaping Foster Care and Mental Health Through Human-Centered Leadership

[0:00]  Are we seeing less people in the fossil system than what it looked like 10 years ago or are we actually seeing still an increase? Still an increase. Wow. Unfortunately. Yeah. We're seeing intergenerational trauma. Um, you know, and you know, our families are so separated now, right? We're we we tend to be, you know, one family's here, another family may be in another city or another state, and people are a little bit more isolated. Um, and I think so we got to bring our communities back together and support each other and value families and not judge them but support them in their time of need.

[0:52]  Most people see foster care and mental health as broken systems. Huge, messy, and impossible to actually fix. But today's guest, she's literally engineering change in space. Renee Brown, the CEO of Depal, has a background not just in social work, but also in engineering. two field you would even think that could go together but that's exactly what's making her a powerhouse in transforming the foster care system mental health service as well as disability support. Miss Renee Brown, how are you doing today? I'm doing good. I'm doing good. How are you?

[1:21]  Good. Good. How does someone even go from the engineering to the social work? And how do you even connect those dots? Like how do how do you make it happen? Sure. So I don't have an education in engineering. My dad was an engineer. So I was raised by an engineer and my mom um had her masters in social work. So my background living with two people with those two areas of expertise and being raised by them, it really helped me see the value of both of those worlds. And as I developed in my career, it came together. it came together like the the desire to solve problems which I saw my dad doing a lot of and he was in the military and just um organized and you know that kind of thing and then my mom with her compassion to help people um

[2:11]  and to help people have better lives. Those two things that just kind of naturally came together in me and I'm grateful um to be able to do it. And I know you have a personal tie to the work when it comes to um adoption. Your brother was adopted when you were young. What did that experience actually teach you about family systems and and those gaps that exist in the foster care world? Yeah. So, I was seven when my um when we adopted my little brother. Um and obviously had no idea that families were made that way. Um but it did teach me that sometimes somebody else has to help a child when their parents are unable to raise them. Um so it taught me that families are formed in a lot of different ways. It also taught me that you don't have to be related biologically to someone to love them just as much. Um, true. And and and watching him grow up, I saw there were

[2:58]  moments though that he struggled with who he was, where he came from, and needing to explore that. So, yes, it's great when there's families that are able to do that, but for the person who is adopted, there is still sometimes struggles in their lives of figuring out who they are when they don't have those connections. I agree. And you stated that you were a therapist. Is that correct? That is what where your space. Yeah. So, I have my masters um in clinical child psychology and I'm a licensed professional uh counselor and a certified substance abuse counselor. Love it. So, since you're a therapist, but you realize it could actually you could make a bigger impact by moving into that leadership perspective, which is where you're at today. What was that moment like? What was there was there like a specific moment that made you say, "Oh, I need to step up and really change things at a

[3:46]  higher level." Yes. So, I was um working at an organization um as a case manager and I was working with uh children with disabilities. So, I'd gotten my degree in mental health, but then my first job, you know, that first job when you go out in your career field, you got to be a little flexible. So, this was the opportunity that was there. So, it was a case manager position with individuals with a disability. and the organization did a restructuring and they actually added this supervisory position, brand new position that needed the combination of working with children with mental health issues and working with children with disabilities. They were combining that. So between my uh experience and my education, I was competitive for the position and thankfully I got it. And once I got that position, I realized, wow, now instead of helping this

[4:33]  individual family try to figure out what's going on with them, I got to figure out programs and could reach all the families that all the therapists were serving. So, it was that moment of, oh, bigger reach, more people. This is fun. Yeah, I love it. I I I anytime, especially in the uh the nonprofit space, it's always fun. doesn't really seem like work and I'm pretty sure you've experienced that, right? It just seems like you're just doing something that you truly love every day. Um, I do want to kind of talk about a lot of people when they get into these spaces, especially seuite executives, CEO roles, um, whether starting businesses, they deal with an impos stepping into these leadership roles. Did you ever have that moment?

[5:16]  And if so, how did you manage through it? I did. So, um, the CEO that was in my position before me, um, she was my supervisor and I actually had conversations with her like, "Do I do I want to do this next step?" And thankfully, she let let me in on some of the things that the CEO experienced. I was like, "You don't you don't work with a board unless you're the CEO." So, I was like, I don't even know if that's something I would be good at, whether I'd enjoy that. She's like, well, come to some board meetings, get to know some. So thankfully I had a mentor that allowed me to have some sneak peeks in into figuring out but still it's a big leap. It's like um the whole organization right is you're responsible for all of these people and their you know and their livelihood and then the people we serve. So it is it is a blessing to lead what you love but it

[6:05]  also is a huge responsibility. So there were times where I was like I don't I don't know if I'm I'm up for this you know. Um, so you lean on the people that help you, lean on the people that have done it before, lean on the people that believe you. I have a great like, you know, cheering section and just to go back to them and say, and they're like, you you can do it and you're not alone.

[6:24]  It matters. Yeah, it matters. Hire great people. Surround yourself with very talented people. And I've been able to do that. I love it. And it goes to show your leadership. I think sometimes we we we're like naturalb born leaders and sometimes may not even know it, right? And I'm pretty sure getting into that space while you may have experienced that maybe there was some nerves you're knocking out of the park. And I want to ask if someone was to say, "Hey, what is DPAL uh center resources actually do?"

[6:50]  How do you answer that in the simplest way possible? Yeah. So Depal Community Resources, our vision is opening doors to hope and belonging for those that we serve. So we serve uh children in foster care, families that are um adopting, we provide mental health services, and we serve individuals with a disability. Um hope is the idea, the belief that your tomorrow can be different than your today. So we want everybody that we touch to have the belief that they have the agency to make their tomorrow different than today. So, if you're in foster care or if you're in one of our independent living apartments and you want something different for your tomorrow, we want to help make sure that you we remove the barriers to make that happen. Belonging is that everybody should have a community that they feel

[7:38]  valued in, that they are contributing to, and that they are supported by. So, that's what we do every day. Like, everybody should have a no matter what family, no matter what. you just mentioned you're talking you're tackling really some major issues here in in our country foster care mental health disabilities any of these keep you up at night I know normally people say you know I have a work life balance but let's be honest when you are doing this type of mission this type of work it's it just lives with you this is what you do all day any of these keeping you up absolutely it it all does um because we have I mean the statistics right are are tough um one in four um young adults that age out of foster care end up homeless, right? Um, you know, there's 70% of young women who age out of foster

[8:26]  care are pregnant before they're 21. We have over 350,000 children in foster care right now. So, in our in our nation, so it's just it's it's a big it's a big problem. Um, and self-care is really important and I practice that and we preach that here at DEPAL. You have to take care of yourself. We encourage staff to take 30 minutes of their work week every week on the clock to do some sort of self-care.

[8:52]  They can clean out their car. They can, you know, throw away the the bad stuff that's in their refrigerator. They can meet a friend for coffee. They can write a letter. They can make a phone call. They can watch 30 minutes of a TV show to take their mind off of things. You really have to take those moments to take care of yourself because you've got to take care of yourself in order to write take care of the children and the people with disabilities that we are here to serve. I love that. I actually heard that from um my wife. so many years ago when we first got together and I was telling the people uh or just for the first time speaking out on sexual abuse and adoption and all these things that you know I encountered as a young adult and um I remember when it came to me wanting to do a nonprofit and she said exactly what you said how do you help someone if you haven't helped yourself so I love that you keep that because I can only imagine you learn that so many years ago and you're still implementing it today because it is so

[9:39]  crucial especially in the line of work that you do and hearing some of the stories so I would actually even kind of pivot to that. What's that story for you that really sticks with you to this day and reminds you why you even do this every day? Yeah. So, there's a couple things. One thing is so when Depal started in 1977, we were a foster care agency and we had one individual in our foster care system that was aging out who happened to have a disability and there were not the services in our community to to support them. So, we started our developmental disabilities division because of one person that didn't have what they needed in the community. I wasn't here working then, but that's the story that it's like that's why you do it, right? It doesn't have to be for masses. It just takes one person's needs. Let's meet that person's

[10:29]  needs and then, right, we scale it up and we continue to meet other people's needs. So, one person can make a difference um in our work. I I do tr truly agree just that one impact that you make could change someone's life forever. And not only that, that one person continue to change maybe somebody else's life, right? Um what is that misconception when we come when we talk about health care? Uh not healthcare, sorry, foster care. What's the biggest misconception people actually have about it? Yeah. So a lot of people seem think that you know the foster parents are in it for the money um and they do get financially reimbursed for um taking care of children. But if you met some of the children that are walking to their homes and the trauma that they have been through, you know that you have to have love to want to help a child at the worst moment of their lives or one of

[11:17]  the worst moments of their lives when they're separated from everything they know and to help them heal. So, one of the misconceptions though is that is that foster care um outcomes are better than if the child stays in their community. So, we are trying to prevent children from coming into foster care because although it is an it's a safety net, it's vital. It's important to keep children safe, but for long-term outcomes, we need to get children back to their communities as soon as we can um to impact them long term in a positive way. Such tough, man. you know, especially kind of experiencing that um my I was adopted and my brother brother was too and I don't know what happened in life but he ended up back in a group home at some for some years and then from the group home came back and you know I've kind of experienced that and I've also had friends as you mentioned that whole misconception of people

[12:05]  aren't here for the money believe it or not I was adopted by my aunt and my cousins would always tell me that and I grew up with that you were picked up off the streets you were adopted for the money and when you hear things like that It stayed with me for life. I was maybe 5 years ago. Um my brother that was saying it, you know, we we now have a pretty good relationship. But I brought it up to him. I said, "Hey, man. You remember when you used cuz it really was hurting, you know, and sometimes you got to just kind of let these things go. Um I can forgive, I won't forget type stuff." And I told him that. I said, "You used to say these things to me."

[12:38]  And his his response was it was just a joke. I said, "But for me, it wasn't funny. Like I didn't have my mom. We I was living with your mom. you know, I I already felt like, man, two years old, you I was taken away and you're telling me I was picked up, you know, I was adopted for the money, you know, and just understanding the lifestyle like it it just also started to um I started to grow resentment towards my mom and it was had nothing to do with her, right?

[13:02]  The one that adopted me. Um so I I hear you on that and and it is not true. So many people just do it. My mom had four of her own and she adopted three of us as a single mom, seven kids. She didn't do it for the money. She did it because she loved us and she didn't want us to just end up with another family, right?

[13:16]  you should try to at least keep us within the family. So, I love that you you do bring that up because from time to time again, do people do it? Maybe, but it's not the case, you know. Absolutely. Yeah. There's good and bad people everywhere, certainly. But for the majority of of my experience, the foster parents that we have and those that work with people, your brother, right? Yeah. Right. Yeah. Your mom Your mom and dad was in it for the money.

[13:38]  Yeah. Right. Exactly. Exactly. Mhm. When we look at child welfare, mental health, and disability services, what's that one process that makes you think it's so outdated, it truly has to change? Is there anything out there that you're still like, why are we still working with this process? Yeah, I think the biggest thing we need to change is um the prevention. We need foster parents for sure, and if anybody wants to join us and be a foster parent, please do.

[14:04]  But the biggest thing we really need to do is prevent children from coming into foster care to begin with. And that is and the money that flows especially from the state and from Medicaid goes to goes to foster parents and supports them and that's fine. But we don't do the same thing with our families. If a grandmother just steps up and says I will take care of my grandchildren for some reason we expect her to like feed them out of love, right? Why do we not give her the same financial benefits that we would give, you know, a formal foster care situation? So, the informal kinship care that happens all the time in our communities, right, where an aunt steps in or a neighbor takes care of of, you know, their neighbor's child or something, but we then say, "Okay, well, you're just you're you're family, so you know, it's your it's your cousin, it's

[14:52]  your grandchild. We should we'll give you a little bit of money." But it's it's like, "No, she deserves the same financial support or he deserves the same financial support." I'll tell you what, and this may be completely off topic, but I wanted to bring it up because maybe you can give some clarification to this. Um, going back to my brother, he was adopted and it just became so overbearing for my mom. He he was just doing whatever he wanted to do. And really, the last, you know, thing that broke the camel's back was that he decided to slap her right in front of the cops. And my mom was like, "Listen, I can't, you know, I got already all these kids. Like, I'm trying my best." So, she had to kind of per say giving back to the state. Yeah. And um they made her pay child support for every for all those years until she was 18 years old. And I was very surprised.

[15:38]  I'm like, man, for someone that was trying her hardest and really cared, but now they're making her pay child support. I I was just kind of in almost disbelief, you know, but it's happening at all levels. You mentioned just because she was, you know, aunt that she wasn't getting all the support. But then on the other end as well, okay, well, we we still going to have you support him.

[15:57]  um you know while mom and biological mom and dad are out there and paying nothing. Yeah. You know so it it is very different in that space of just what's kind of out there and things that need to be changed and I'm happy that we have someone like yourself at the forefront that are seeing these things and and truly just trying to figure out how do we make these changes especially from the resources that you guys are providing. Um so I truly do love that.

[16:20]  But if you could redesign foster care from scratch. Oh wow. What's that one major thing you do differently? Oh, that's a good question. So, um the system the whole we we have a lot of systems that are unfortunately don't work really well um in our country. Um and I would have our families and our children be our number one priority, right? We would have rates of like so example our Medicaid rates. They're so low on a lot of things that then we can't we have to compete to hire staff and we can't pay them what they deserve for the work that they're doing. Right?

[16:56]  This is really we can't just have anybody work with someone with a with a disability. We have to have people that are going to keep them safe and treat them well. And we we need to be able to be competitive and retain them. And so one thing I would certainly do in the system is I would put the money um you know prioritize funds um for that. I would certainly prioritize um funds for prevention and and you know I know it's hard to prove something that doesn't happen. So that makes it hard when we when we put money into a family and prevent the child from coming into foster care. You can't prove that you prevented them, right? Because it didn't happen. But we would we would see the numbers decrease overall. So, I would shift a lot of our financial support to prevention and I would certainly for those that come into care or those that have a disability that need support, I would uh financially support those as

[17:43]  well um at the with appropriate and flexible funding so we can do what we need to do. I love it, Renee, to just know that you're in this space. And what did your brother think about all this? I mean, him being in that space, right? Him being that foster child. Um is he a part of the nonprofit as well? Is he just excited to see his sister doing this at this level? Yeah. So, he is doing something completely different.

[18:07]  Um, and he is not in this space, but he definitely is in my uh cheering section. Yeah, for sure. And I talk to him all the time about those difficult moments of, you know, wanting to know who you are and where you came from and who your parents are. You, you know, you were lucky that you stayed connected to your family, so you didn't have as many questions about that, right? But he we we got him when he was 6 weeks old and then he didn't see, you know, his biological family again until he was an adult. So, you know, there's a lot of space where he didn't know, you know, what's my mom's favorite food? What are what did we do for Christmas? What is it my f what are those traditions that my family had that I have no idea, you know, what what they are. Yeah. Yeah. I want to pivot. I want to pivot to you as a leader um and what you've been able to just kind of learn and accomplish.

[18:54]  What's the biggest lesson in leadership you've learned the hard way? I mean, you're going from that therapist to a CEO. Is there anything that you felt that just still resonates with you? Like, man, I I learned it, but I learned it pretty hard. Yeah. One of the things is like to separate yourself from ideas and strategies. Um, and uh so for instance, like if you have an idea, it is just an idea. So don't get so caught up in it being your idea that you are unable to see when maybe it's not the best idea. Right? So when I have ideas or I have suggestions um obviously you bring in voices but you don't get so tied to that idea that you're that you're unwilling to be you're you're not flexible or you can just say that didn't work and let's try something new. Right?

[19:40]  And you don't have to take that personally. The idea didn't work. It's not that you didn't work. It's the idea that failed and that's okay. Right? And so the if you can fail fast like a lot of people say you can get to a better solution if you can just be like okay that didn't work. Y yeah know I hear that all the time fail fast fail forward right and it it is true um failure truly at some point becomes success. Yes it is and we we see it all the time with some of the greats is that you have to continue to fail and fail and fail and you'll fail for years sometimes. That one moment changes the whole trajectory.

[20:14]  you know, that one moment of success could change where you're at today. And that's what's so good about life at times, man. What's so good about God is that he'll show up when it's when it's time, you know, and being patient um is definitely key to it all as well. We know that nonprofits have this big challenge of of funding. Yes. How do you approach that in a way that doesn't really feel like a neverending grind? Okay. Well, it does.

[20:41]  Um that's okay. that is just that is just par for the course right so um we are rely we a lot on on Medicaid funding for the services that we provide and then we just ask our communities to join us so um you know and a lot of our community does want to join us it's just they don't know how right so it's a matter of I would love to help what are some avenues and so we provide them with lots of avenues and we say you know you can become a foster parent or you can be a resource um caregiver for someone with a disability or you can go to our website and you can donate or you know you can go to our Facebook page and just like a post. Um you know there's just so many different ways that you can join us in this you know in this mission. So that's one of the things I try to do is just make sure that we are just giving lots of people avenues to join us and

[21:29]  welcome them and we we welcome all kinds of people with all different backgrounds and and we just know we it takes a village right takes a village. It does as you mentioned just easy sometimes you're not able to donate which is cool but you can still share the mission you can still as you mentioned you know show support by a like or something like that um because some people may not even know this exists or some people may forget right it's like that whole out of sight out of mind ordeal same way for your donors if your donors donated last year maybe they forgot this year you know we got to continue to get back to them or we got to as you mentioned just hit that social media to let them know and just sharing stories and I'm pretty sure that's what you guys do already but stories of those foster kids or those that are really gaining so much from the resources when they someone hears that that in itself is just showing oh I see

[22:17]  my money's going worth you know to something that is is beyond me. So I love it that you just mentioned it wasn't about just the funding it's how you support at a small level as well. Yes. Yes. What what's something that you wish more people understood about running a nonprofit or an organization like this? You know it's it's such important work. It's meaningful work.

[22:38]  Um, we have an amazing staff. They work tirelessly and there's just no way just for for a lot of reasons that we can compensate them at the level that they deserve, right? I mean, we see that with our teachers. We see that with a lot of um people that choose to work with children. So, you know, I I wish people just um I hope appreciate those that do this work um because it's really come from passion. It comes from an internal desire to make things better. Um, and and we're here and we will continue to be here and we're going to continue to to to make the life better. And our work connects to your work whether it's directly connected or not. If if the children that we're serving have high rates of incarceration, that is going to

[23:25]  impact you. If the children we serve that grow into adults end up homeless, that is going to impact you, right? Whether it's your taxes, whether it's how your community lives, whether it's when you're driving down the street and the people that you see, you know, that um are housing insecure. All of those things will eventually, right, wind its way back to impact your life. So, help us and you'll also be helping yourself.

[23:50]  You know, when you put in that perspective, a lot of people don't see it that way. And I love that you mentioned it um in that space. I want you to think about fast forward 10 years. That's a lot of years, but let's five to 10 years. Okay. what did success actually look like for you? Like what's different in the foster care and the mental health because of the work that you're actually doing now? So hopefully there are less children that have to enter foster care. Um hopefully our families are stronger um and they're getting the supports that they need in times of crisis so small problems don't become big problems that then lead to um parents not being able to parent their children. I hope we can do some have some impact on the alarming rates of substance abuse. Um we do provide you know counseling. So that would be that would have a ripple effect in itself if we you know could impact the rates of

[24:38]  substance abuse. Um we're going to need more counselors in our field and um it's not a field that um that counselors are going to at great rates. It's actually there's a reduction in counselors over time. So that's going to be an area that we're going to have to get really creative with when we have less counselors. um with increased needs. Um and then we have people with disabilities that have the supports that they need that they're not on a waiting list waiting to get what they deserve.

[25:04]  Um you know, and that's unfortunate. Virginia, you have like 12,000 people waiting on a list to get the appropriate services and and that shouldn't be. M Rene, I I got a question because I just I really just want to know this answer because I was in the system. Are we seeing less people in the fossil system than what it looked like 10 years ago or are we actually seeing still an increase? Still an increase. Wow.

[25:27]  Unfortunately. Yeah. We're seeing intergenerational trauma. Um you know and you know our families are so separated now, right? We we we tend to be you know one family's here, another family may be in another city or another state and people are a little bit more isolated. Um, and I think so we got to bring our communities back together and support each other and value families and not judge them, but support them in their time of need. I appreciate sharing that. I thought to myself, you know, especially now as an adult and being a father, thinking that we're actually seeing some positive changes, but when you talk about just people repeating the cycle, I can uh I can definitely see and hear, you know, see that. Mhm. Um, if I give you a magic wand to change any policy overnight for any of the

[26:14]  resources you provide, what would that be and why? Oh, wow. There's so many things I would change. I would definitely change um that the fact that people with disabilities have to wait on waiting lists for the services that they need. We would just have to just like some things we just have to provide. I think we just should provide um the resources that people with a disability need to be um to be their best selves and to have choice um and and to remain in their communities and not have to be institutionalized. Um that I would change in a heartbeat. I love it. Um let's talk about a little about innovation. How are nonprofits innovating nowadays with AI being really that sweet word everyone is talking about? Is that something that you guys as an organization are implementing um

[27:02]  or using for whether it's people to get resources or information a lot quicker um whether it's your donors um even your volunteers is there something in in place for something like that? Yes. So we're exploring a lot of that right now. We are I think with a lot of people um trying to get better understanding of what resources and tools are out there.

[27:23]  So we're attending a lot of trainings. We are um implementing some ideas with our donors. We are also implementing some of the AI with um connecting with people who might be interested in our mission. So you know you know those things where you like you talk about I wish I had you know a new refrigerator then the ad pops up magically right. So, so we're doing a little bit of passive listening kind of things just so we can make sure that people that are interested in foster care or people that are interested in adoption or working with someone with a disability, they might see Depal right pop up on their phone um feed so they can they can get connected with us. We're also looking though how to make things more efficient for our workers. People don't go into this work a lot because they love paperwork. People go into this field because they want to help people. They want to connect with people, spend time

[28:10]  with those that they're serving. So, anything that we can use AI that is um you know keeps confidentiality and you know HIPPA compliant all of that that can help our staff do their job more efficiently especially when it comes to paperwork. So, we're really looking into that and as well as staying connected with our with our donor base and using AI to help us with that. I love it. And if you had an AI expert or let's say AI agent um help you when it comes to like client to community, would that be something that you're actually interested in?

[28:42]  Yeah, absolutely. We would love to have some some technology. It's actually a training that we're going to provide in the fall and so we're trying to find an AI component for training for our staff. Um, so someone who could do the AI piece and talk about that specifically in our work because we see a lot of like general AI training, but if someone can bring that technology and that knowledge base and apply it to the work that we do on a daily basis and share that with our staff, that would be fantastic. I love it. I love that there not a lot of leaders are at the forefront of it all.

[29:12]  There's so many nonprofit leaders that it's like, well, my staff uses it, you know, the chat GBT because everyone's kind of using it, but they're still afraid. And I I definitely see so much value and easy access when it comes to just having maybe that uh 247 live bot because, you know, those that are in the foster care system, those that are going through mental health, um, disabilities, they're up at any time. And I how great would it be to actually go onto a website, have a conversation. It seems like very, you know, like a person and give you accurate, correct information.

[29:43]  So, I love that you're kind of in that space. And we're about to get here to the end to the fun part of the blind question, but for people listening who are inspired by what you are actually doing, how can they get involved with um Deepall Community Resources? Yeah. So, if you live in Virginia, um you could obviously become a foster parent or resource parent um with us. Um, but even if you don't live in Virginia, I encourage you to go to our website, depalcr.org. Um, you can check out how you can donate. You can also, um, find us on Facebook, Depal Community Resources, and and on Instagram. So like, um, and share our information. Um, interact with us if you have questions.

[30:20]  Um, you know, just reach out. Um, we'd love to talk to you. Um, so yeah, so you can get involved in a lot of different ways and just, you know, you go to our website and we've got all kinds of information there. All right. All right. This is the fun part. I always love these blind questions because the person that is I'm asking doesn't even know and they're like, "Okay, hurry up." Yesterday, I was actually talking to a leader and and she she started the conversation was like, "So, what's the blind question?" I'm like, "Wait a minute. I got to give it to you at the end." So, you don't know what's coming, but it's it's always a fun one, right? If you had to trade places with anyone for a day, living or dead, who would it be and why?

[30:58]  Oh, okay. That is a good one. Um, so, okay, so this is tough. I think I would trade places with Barack so I could hang out with Michelle after the day. Yeah, assuming that they're together for whatever moment that is. I think that's I think I would love to to day with her. Yeah. And because they're both phenomenal. I know. I was like, do I trade places with her? But then that seems kind of, you know, that doesn't seem very nice. So, I'm going to trade places with him. to spend the day with her because she's a phenomenal leader and um and she's just done so much and she cares so much about children. Um and I think we'd have fun. I I agree. I can see the vibes. I can see both your vibes quite well. For sure. Yeah. So, I I give you the opportunity to ask now the next

[31:46]  leader that we interview a blind question. So, you ask the blind question here. We'll write it down and we'll make sure that one of our other uh leaders we interview here on the podcast also get that same question. So, what is your question to them? Um, my question is going to be, what is the biggest misconception about your profession? Okay. Okay. I love it. I love it. Guys, if you're still watching with us, Miss Renee Brown, you guys can go to dpaulcr.org. Make sure that you guys check out what they're doing. If you guys, I love the mission. Even if you guys cannot donate, please, as we mentioned, share, like, comment, send us to somebody that may need this information today. And thank you so much, Renee, for just being a a leader in this space. And you know, it definitely touches my heart because I've have been adopted. I understand the

[32:33]  foster care system just not as much as you do clearly because I'm learning a lot as we have this call. But I want to say thank you for the work that you do. And I know that it's never going to go unnoticed and you're changing lives even if people don't come and tell you that you are changing lives. And I'm so happy that we got to share this story and give you the platform so that others can see that no matter what the background looks like, no matter who you are, no matter what the upbringing is, there's still so many resources to really um I would say level you up in this life, okay? You're not in it alone. So, Miss Renee, thank you so much. For those that are watching, Era, we'll catch you guys on the next episode. Thank you. We bite.