Stepped Care Solutions CEO AnnMarie Churchill: The Pandemic Truth About Mental Health Nobody Says

[0:00]  Another [music] episode here. Today we have Miss Ann Marie Churchill. How you doing today, madam?

[0:21]  I'm doing great. How about you?

[0:23]  Listen, it is a Wednesday and just as we talked about, we're about to have another great conversation. Nothing like having a conversation with another leader in the space of um mental behavioral health. Is that correct?

[0:35]  Yeah. Yeah, it's good.

[0:36]  How you get started? Tell us how how you even get into the space.

[0:40]  Oh my gosh, that's going back a bit. Um there's a long history to that, but I think for most of us in the mental health sector, uh there's personal experiences. there's things that I think triggered our curiosity um or our passion and with mental health I think that's really important because they take both of that we have to be curious and we have to be passionate to keep going in mental health and looking for new and innovative ways to get people where they need to get to. So for me it started very young just recognizing that there was a thing called mental health. I think I always knew that there were thoughts in my head that I wondered if other people had and sometimes were scary and sometimes were just weird. And it just drove an interest in me about what is that? And then um when I was in starting university, I actually, not a lot of people know this, but I actually did a job with the RCMP in Canada, the Royal Canadian Mounted Police. they had summer

[1:44]  or an internship for students in the humanities and I spent four months in an RCMP uniform doing all the calls and I saw all kinds of things that I kept thinking to myself this feels like something other than just people doing things the wrong way. It felt like there was more to it and and the more I explored it, the more I got interested in it. I went to university and studied um psychology and social work and just kept going on it and uncovering and uncovering like peeling an onion. And so here I am today. I think I'm still on a journey with knowing more and more about mental health and hearing from other people their experiences and always always trying to move it forward.

[2:24]  Um does it feel like work?

[2:27]  Interestingly no. And that's one of the reasons I think I stayed with it is I've I've done other things and it felt like work. And this just felt like it was so full of purpose and meaning that you know I had this saying even when I was in university I saw it somewhere in a poem and it said your life has been worth it if even one life has breathed easy easier because you lived. And it sort of set me on a course where when I felt really bad or things weren't going well, I'm like my work my life is worth it if I can even just make one life breathe easier. So it's carried

[3:04]  it's carried me through. It's it gives me um my there's certainly challenges and difficulties in the field, but it gives me purpose and meaning so it doesn't feel like work.

[3:14]  Yeah. I actually um this was years ago and you say that and it just it's so true. this a an article written on me when I started my first nonprofit and it was if I if I can help one child before I leave this earth I'll be a happy person

[3:28]  right along those lines I can remember so long ago but it is that it's you know what I realized especially as a as a parent that it's not even about us it's really about the next generation

[3:37]  you know we we've obviously got put through to so so many tests and one other thing that I heard from another great leader like yourself was that uh there's no testimony without the word test and I was like wow that So true, right? So we've been put through a lot of tests to share our testimonies to then go help others. Like there's such a fascinating thing about that because we're not selfish, right? Like yeah, we're living a better life because of our mental health and the things that we've done to also kind of get in the space.

[4:01]  And we all have the ability to to kind of change the way that we see and think. Um it has a lot to do and we'll talk about a lot you know because you're the expert here but just with the people that you surround yourself with the things that you're intaking obviously there's that trauma in the past that you also have to kind of um seek and get you know help on that. Um but I want to kind of talk to an app that I just heard recently. So there's this wrestler I'm a big wrestling fan I think you know that. [laughter] And um there was this wrestler named Big E that just mentioned that even in college people didn't know. And he's like this 300 lb guy right like you just never would have known. But he was talking about how he struggled through all a lot of these things in college, especially when he was getting injured and couldn't do football no more. And then um you know how he he he went into one of these psychiat psychiatric um hospitals, right? Put himself in there because he felt that he was a danger to to others. Um and this was his coach just kind of telling him these things and then he heard about this app I think during the pandemic because what was happening is that he was on the road so much with WWE that he didn't realize that there was still an issue, right? But as soon as he had to stay home and realize I'm going to wrestling and come back home, I don't have anybody. So he found this app called Headspace and he talks about how it changed his life and he utilizes it. Are there things like this an Marie that you you feel that people could utilize but just don't know about? Because I think I think the resources are there, they just don't know about them. I think that's a great um point is I find and when we're doing our work at StepCare Solutions and so we're not forprofit and what we're trying to do is transform mental health systems by saying there's lots of things

[5:37]  that are that can help people with their mental health

[5:40]  and some people do this um either or you know it's an app or it's therapy and I'm saying it's all of it and it's your community group you know and it's your faith-based um community It's all of that that create well-being for humans. And really technology, as much as people are concerned about it and sent some AI programs that have led people to self harm and these kinds of things, yes, there's there are definitely risks to technology for mental health support. However, I would say that as long as we have human oversight, um we can use these technologies. And so during the pandemic um in Canada in right at the start of the pandemic so it was like in March 2020 the federal government in Canada put out an RFP for a virtual psychosocial platform for every single person in the country. Nobody knew what this should look like. We just knew there had to be um some support for people. And so stepcare solutions at that point I had just taken over the organization and um we we won that RFP with two partners, Kids Help Phone and Homewood Health and we said okay let's do a virtual platform for every single person in the country and there's no referral needed costs nothing um you can use it 247 and the thing is it had a bunch of resources on it. So, some were mindfulness apps

[7:06]  and some were apps like Headspace and some were coaching apps where if you're having a a difficulty with your child, you could have a parent coach and

[7:17]  and the other thing was some people really want to talk to a mental health professional. So, why shouldn't they? So, there was like

[7:23]  247 access to a mental health professional any time of the day or night. And it was like groundbreaking. People are like,

[7:29]  "How did you do that like in eight weeks? And how is it that it's working?" and we had like with no marketing, no no promotion. Over four million people were on that and they could track

[7:40]  their mental health. Um I did my own self assessments for four years. I could see the pattern when I wasn't going out or when it was in the fall or winter. My mental health would start to drop and I go, "Oh shoot, I have to do something like get back on the treadmill." And people were telling us that I always think I'm doing better than I am, but I'm tracking my mental health and I'm catching it earlier. I had a panic attack last night. I didn't need to go to the hospital. I talked to a counselor on the phone from my house. Like this virtual platform sort of it just woke people up to, oh, you can get help anytime in the way you want it and in the type of help you want. We'll give you a range of things and you make that decision, but we'll support you. We'll have a live navigator and we had a thing where I don't know where to start. What should I do? And there was a live navigator or you could just call the counselor and they'd say, "Okay, what do you like? Do you like videos? Do you want to talk to a peer supporter?"

[8:29]  I love that. It was amazing and it ch for me it was something I had dreamt of that no one had to be worried about reaching out. You could reach out anonymously. You could actually create your account. You could let people know and download what you were doing to a counselor or a family member. But it was up to you. You made those decisions and we would help you make them. So it was just everything we had dreamed of at especially at our organization with our stepare 2.0 model. It was like choice options and people get to choose and they could track how they're doing and they could get the support when they needed it, how they wanted it. So apps are great, technology is great. I love it. And you know, we're going to talk about a little bit of technology and just apps in just a bit, but I want to kind of go back to what you mentioned the pandemic. Um, for me, I'm on the outside world, but I feel that we're now using mental health as the go-to word and sometimes probably overly using it, but I think it's great that we're actually using it, right? Because growing up, I'm 35 years old. It wasn't a conversation I was having in my household. I didn't see a therapist. I was 30 years old and it really was my wife, right, that said, "Hey, you got it was her appointment because she was going through postpartum, but she realized there was something there that was kind of going through on it, going through my life as I was becoming this father, right?" And I think it's all this trauma that we just sweep under the rug and feel like there's it's nothing. But when you're in these moments and they really start to creep back up on you, it is it's something, you know? Do you feel that um 2020 helped us in a sense of now we get to talk about it more um and and now you're seeing a lot of organizations kind of around this space. What do you feel the pandemic really did for us? Was it harmful or was it actually great that you think the pandemic did? I think so many people also just kind of to even think about why we got there. Was it people at home that just realized they had time to think

[10:14]  and and wow wait I'm not I'm not feeling myself like why am I thinking this like I can imagine you and Marie pandemic time you're dropping all these resources you must be hearing a lot of these things what does that look like in the pandemic time with mental health

[10:28]  yeah you ask a question you know is um was it a really positive thing what the pandemic did for our mental health or was it a bad thing I think it's both I think nothing um is one-dimensional like some people. It was a real challenge. Um, and they feel that they haven't caught up. And I think a lot of our young people feel like that, that they haven't caught up, that they missed out on some really critical milestones that's that are now I think that experience is impacting both their mental health, but also their ability to move on with things that they want to move on with. However, I think it also really highlighted the importance of connection and connection is critical. Social connection is critical to mental health. And we never really talked about it. We just took it for granted. But when we were all isolated, people thought, uhoh, this is creating problems. Yes. Because human beings are meant to be connected and be able to carry on with their lives in a way that's in their social context. So, so I think what the pandemic did for us was it really highlighted that these things are important and important to talk about. And so it moved the mental health to your point conversation forward um in that now more and more people were talking about it. You know we heard our public health officials when they were talking about you know the rights of COVID they were also saying and take care of yourself and take care of your mental health. Like all of a sudden it was entering into our normal everyday language. So I think that's huge. In some ways, I think it was coming like we were seeing things like um all kinds of mental health awareness things and destigmatizing programs and these things were coming. But I think at 2020 and through those four years in the pandemic, I think what it did was it moved it forward much quicker and became part of the general population language. Like people in every walk of life were home trying to cope. It wasn't just some people or some people who didn't have mental health services. It was all of us and all ages. Like we had people Wellness Together Canada were seniors who really needed to connect with others. So we had groups for seniors but we had kids and we had parents and we had business people trying to still make you know movement on their goals. So we had goal setting groups and so we saw it across the whole population. The only the only downside I think of this conversation around mental health and you mentioned we can all talk about it now is unfortunately that mental health has in certain segments been medicalized and so what we tend to do sometimes is think of normal human experiences that challenge our mental health and the continuum of mental wellness. Some days we're not as well as others. somehow that's getting um packaged into a medical problem or a condition or an illness and then we run the risk of pathizing normal human struggles and experiences and you can overtreat. You can you can lead people to believe they can't solve things on their own. You can lead people to believe that the first stop is okay, it's medical, I need to see a doctor and I need medication.

[13:33]  And we know that's not true. We know that's true for a segment and and a small proportion, but for the overall population, mental health is like physical health. If you are a human being and you have mental capacity, you could be not well sometimes. And just like we can be sometimes not physically well, you have a flu or whatever, it doesn't mean you have a long-term illness, but you have to take care of it. And then sometimes it does become a chronic condition or serious condition, and you do need help. So we need that whole understanding of what mental health is, what mental illness is, how we can prevent illness and promote health, mental health. And there's lots of things we can do within that, but I think sometimes, and we haven't done a good job. You mentioned using the language, but I'm not sure we've done a good job of creating the understanding for people and how it shows up in your life and in the life of your families and others in terms of mental health. You're [snorts] completely right. I think that we we're using it very freely, not really understanding the word itself and just the impact that it truly causes in our lives today and as we continue to to grow, especially for our youngans.

[14:42]  Um, but I also think kind of go back. So, I spoke to a leader, she's probably in her 60s and I asked her asked her, "What do you think about AI in the space of mental health?" Right? Because it is it's being used by young ones that don't go to therapy but actually go on a chat PT. So she says, "My daughter actually told me about Chad GPT because she uses it as her therapist." So I ask you,

[15:04]  do you think it's a good thing? Because I do I do feel, right? You mentioned it time and time again, the connection, the communication that that it's because of the empathy. It's because we feel seen and heard. That's what we were missing, right? Yeah.

[15:16]  And I I feel when you have a chat GPT, I use AI a lot and I love it, but it doesn't give you the empathy. It doesn't give you the compassion. And it doesn't give you and maybe in words it could possibly give you that but when you're talking to someone like like even this is great anmarie but when you get to talk to someone in person yeah

[15:32]  and just feel the energy energy in a room is different. So what is your thoughts on that AI being that therapist aka chat?

[15:40]  Yeah. So I would separate out technology from AI. So what we're seeing with technology and mental health it's enabling access for people. So, if I'm a kid up in some rural part of the US or Canada and I can't get to a therapist, I can I can contact a therapist online, is it as good as in person? Well, I used to be a therapist for youth and I I don't know. I think to have them in person

[16:04]  is is like way over the top in terms of seeing each other on technology. However, if it's technology or nothing, I want technology because I know just like I'm connecting with you, I can make some relationship building and convey some information and support and caring. Um, so technology is essential, I think, to transform our mental health systems and improve access and outcomes. And there's some people culturally, I've had people tell us this on Wellness Together Canada and for other people that I've been in touch with that they will never go see a therapist. They said, "I would never do it. I just can't get past it." Well, then I want you to have something. So, what could you do? So, the technology is critical. However, AI, we have to understand what AI is, right? Data in, data out. And the problem with AI and mental health is often AI will try to be your best friend and give you back everything you're saying. And if a kid is saying, "I'm a loser." And I'll I'll introduce now for people who just so that they know self-injury or suicide. Um, if they're saying, "I want to do this." And we've had instances of this that that could get confirmed rather than um really dealt with in a professional and effective way to relieve those feelings that lead people to self harm. And AI might actually confirm, yeah, I understand that you're feeling that way and why. When if I was seeing a young person or anybody, I would want to say, well, let's talk about that. And I'd want to create some hope and and move them in a different direction. AI may never do that. And I think with oversight, AI can help us get there. It can help us if people want to be matched to a service and they say, "These are the things I like," maybe AI can pull it up quickly and let them know. But in terms of connection and that being your therapist, I don't think AI is is developed or ever will be developed enough to be a person's therapist. I think it can be an information source. Um, I think it can be a connector, but I do not think it is the connection.

[17:59]  Yeah. No, I agree. I definitely agree. I want to kind of go back to this headsp space thing. I think I don't know if you know this, right? It happens to me all the time actually

[18:06]  because I'm night scroller, right? I'm laying in bed and I'm just scrolling that the Headspace uh it would pull up I guess as a sponsor. It just knows that I've been on for like an hour or something and it'll just pop up this little bubble very calm and saying, "Hey, just let you know you might want to take a mental break." Like when we talk about resources, there are those things that we could ideally plug in our lives that will hold us accountable. I think that's a one of the biggest things is accountability um around the space of mental health is being able to do the things over and over and normally with mental health it is that is getting this repetition of the way we talk to ourselves, the way that we care for ourselves, the way that we as you know see therapies. Um, however, tell me if this is bad. I see people that say I have a therapist on speed dial and I I talk to my therapist anytime something goes wrong, right? And it's like almost once a week. Do you think that's too much? Because there's also a stigma that maybe there's too much of of of therapy. Where do you fall in line between that?

[19:02]  So, as a therapist, um, my goal, I always think about it as therapy should be clearing the pathway so people can walk their path. It's not carrying them on the path.

[19:15]  It's not even walking beside them forever on the path

[19:19]  for periods I have. And I hope somebody would would for some periods walk alongside me when I'm really stuck. But then I would hope the whole time they're talking about Emory, you got this. And you'll know you got it at this time and we're setting you up to have it

[19:35]  because a therapist isn't your friend. A therapist is not your family member. A therapist is not your connector. A therapist is therapy is a person who helps you get back on track in your life. And many of us fall off at certain times and some of us need a therapist to get us back on track. And by that I mean clearing the path with all the garbage like you talked about the things we say in our head or the trauma that's got us stuck, the reexperiencing, the negative thoughts, the shame or the losses. They can they can really throw us off off our path. And what a therapist can do is re help remove some of that stuff to help us walk back on our path. And what I worry about a lot, and not everybody agrees with me, but what I worry is the jump to what I call intensive services and supports when there's things people could be building into their life um that can help them build resilience and confidence and capacity in their own life and model it for people in their community, whether it's in their family, their kids, that they actually show human beings have this ability to recover, to keep going to learn constantly. And you said something that caught me. Um I'm trying to think what it was cuz I answered in my head and said awareness. I think you said it hold us accountable. And in my mind I was saying it's creating awareness like when that little bubble pops up and says yeah

[21:03]  did you notice you've been doing this

[21:04]  because we are humans and humans our thinking gets us caught sometimes and we go around in circles and we often have a negative cognitive bias. Like I used to ask people in my resilience trainings, I'd say, "How many people in the room when you wake up in the middle of the night, the first thing you think of is what went well that day?" Almost nobody. Most people think about what went wrong that day unless they've trained themselves because human beings have a negative cognitive bias and that's self-protective. That's a threat perception which helps us see threat which helps for our survival. So that's sort of like evolutionary psychology which I love because many of the things that get us stuck have been set up to support us but it can go overboard and that's where a therapist can say have you noticed this? So I'll give you an example. I saw a person many many years ago and he had lost his wife um and a child and he was quite depressed and quite suicidal. I'm changing some of the facts to protect confidentiality. Um, but I noticed in his talking, every time he finished his sentence, he would say, "Life is hard." So he would tell me something and then he would go, "Life is hard." And I said to him, "I'm sitting here and I'm really listening." And every time you say that, I find myself sinking and sinking and sinking. And now I understand why you feel like life isn't worth living and you want to kill yourself. Like I wonder if

[22:27]  every time you think something instead of life is hard, you say something like I have a daughter and kids who love me because he still have people around who love him. That's who brought him in.

[22:36]  And so he replaced it and he told me that. He said, "I never realized I was doing that." So these thoughts, these bubbles, a therapist can help you see things that you can't see.

[22:48]  And then once you see them, you're on your way. Like you don't need someone to keep digging in and digging in and visiting the rooms you didn't invite them into and everything else. It's like this is my issue. Someone listens to you or you put it in your favorite mental health technology and you learn it and you go, "Ah, cool. I get that now." And off you go.

[23:10]  If the Heart and Hustle podcast has ever sparked any idea or made you think differently, do us a favor. Make sure to guys share this, post it on LinkedIn, or even text that nonprofit friend that you just have. Whatever works. This is what keeps the conversation going and allows us to just grow this community together. Seriously, we appreciate you. You said a lot of good things and I relate to a lot of them because we're all humans, right? So, you talked about in the sense of someone losing their, you know, family or their loved ones and then what how that brings or what that shows looked like. So I tell you and then just a how we automatically go to that negative thing right when things are happening even though a lot of good things could have happened in that day you mentioned

[23:52]  I'll give you an example so I love wrestling and I had the opportunity of a lifetime to go and interview wrestlers that I was watching since I was a kid

[24:00]  right and it was great I went to Boston time of my life I feel like I'm on this highest mountain and I forgot to hit record on the mics and I didn't know that until I got home so here I am at the highest of the highs and because I forgot to hit record. Even though I had audio off the cameras, it wasn't the

[24:16]  I hold myself to a standard, but I failed in my mind, right?

[24:20]  And I was so broken, you know, I went to sleep, as you mentioned, just thinking about all the negative. Woke up the next day and still in my mind and I could even get up. I was I had this knot just kind of sitting in my chest and and thinking like I'm a failure like, "Oh my god, I'm never going to get this opportunity again." all these things happening in my life and I almost canceled every meeting and I had to talk to myself and luckily I actually um I've had to automate like I have people that do things for me. So I actually went online and I seen a video of it was me and it was something that I said and it was like who who is Ephrain? He's a storyteller. He's a visionary. He's this and because I heard it and it was me that said it picked me up and says Ephrain you are that you tell that story even though you failed. Did you really? You didn't. Right. first of all, but even though a mistake happened, how do you continue to tell the story and pick yourself back up? So, I did. I had to continue to tell that story. And the first person that I speak to that day is someone from the adoption agency. I'm adopted. And when I sat here and thought about it in that day, I just got so emotional. I'm like, I'm a kid. When you think about it, statistically shouldn't even made it this far.

[25:25]  Yeah.

[25:26]  But look where I'm at. I'm living a dream that I had when I was a kid that one day I was going to do this. How can I really be upset with myself? How can I really be down? And it is, you know, even as an entrepreneur, some of the things I tell people wasn't that I just had to change the music that I was listening to, right? I was also the things that I was telling myself. So, as I was going through this and I was like

[25:48]  failing, well, I wouldn't say failing, but I'm not seeing an ROI or I'm not seeing scale that I had to keep telling myself, it's part of the process. It's part of the process. You got this, right? It because your brain, the imposter syndrome gets so loud. I was thinking to myself at times, there's no way that I can do this. Like, what am I doing? I'm putting my family on the line. All this starts to really beat you up. And it's it's having good people around you. It is sometimes quieting the noise around you, doing things you love where it doesn't feel like work, doing more purpose- driven things, passion, all these things. But I ask you, we've said some really good things, Anarie, and I still feel that there's people out there that

[26:27]  feel overwhelmed and they feel like, I don't have access to therapy.

[26:30]  Yeah. Even though we said all these different things, Anmarie, what do you say to those individuals?

[26:35]  Yeah, I think first of all, I just want to acknowledge the story you just told. Like that was amazing and inspiring. And at one point, I was saying to myself, "Oh my gosh, you're your own therapist." You know, it's like you're saying, [laughter] "Well, hold on a minute. Like I did this." And the ability to do that will carry through in in other experiences. Like I find now as I'm older, it's even easier for me to go to a hold on a minute really and talk myself out of it. But I've created awareness of my thought patterns and and where I go off base. And I know that now. And so I kind of laugh at myself and go, "Oh, that's ridiculous. You know why you're doing that?" And you're you're doing that. And every time you do that, you're building psychological resilience because you're becoming aware of your patterns and the way your mind works. And there's some commonalities in humans like I mentioned the threat perception and all that. We all have that. Some of us more to an extent than others. And that can cause some challenges. But once you know it, you can support yourself. So for people and that was a beautiful example you gave of that. So for people who who don't have access to therapy, the first thing I would say is there are a lot of free online programs um and community programs that therapy just doesn't just happen in a therapist's office oneonone. Therapy in terms of getting back on your path and feeling better and moving along. If we think of therapy as clearing a lot a lot of that those barriers and getting moving on your recovery, there's therapy in peer support. There's therapy in your community center down the road. There's therapy when you go out to a cause and you actually throw yourself into it. A lot of the human experiences

[28:16]  are negative internal thoughts. And the more we know this about depression that depression is internalizing disorder. You spend a lot of time in your head rehashing stuff. Anxiety is about thinking ahead to the future and all the bad things that can happen. So imagine if you're in the present and you're out in a community group supporting other people. You're not internalizing. That is therapy. When you support other people, we've learned this from peer support. People who provide peer support get as much out of it for psychological well-being as the people who receive the peer support. So I think that's fascinating. So if you're someone who's saying, "I don't have access to a therapist and I don't can't pay whatever." Well, first of all, if you really want to talk to a mental health professional, there are online free services. So, Mental Health America has great programs. Um, in Canada, we have the Canadian Mental Health Association, which are not for-profit community-based national organizations where there are people available to help you. So, that's one thing. The other thing I would think say to people is think about mental health support as more than a one-on-one therapist. and think about things that usually pull you out of a rut or make you feel better and do more of it

[29:28]  and that usually is very supportive of people.

[29:31]  Yeah.

[29:31]  Um and the third thing is to really it's interesting when you were talking um to really think about what we say to ourselves and we have this exercise called be your own best friend. If you had a best friend and they forgot to turn on the mic or the audio, but they're really invested in their work and they really work hard, would you say to them, "Oh man, you're such a failure." Like, "How could you not turn that on?" Or would you say, "Come on, you got to see your favorite heroes. You got the video. You you do these things all the time. They're amazing things you're doing, and yeah, you forgot to turn that on. So what? You're going to have those things happen." What would you say to yourself if you're own your own best friend? And one of the biggest breakthroughs I think in the mental health world was cognitive behavioral therapy you know and this is people like Albert Ellis and Aaron Beck and they discovered this thing is it's not so much what's happening to us is what we tell ourselves about it

[30:26]  and how we think about it

[30:28]  and all the traumas and stuff you talked about and being adopted and go and really breaking through on things. Do we tell do you tell yourself, man, like I'm crushing it. This could have happened and I'm doing this and there's things I'm doing every day to do that and I'm doing my best even when it doesn't work out. Like I'm I'm giving it my all. Or or do we say things to ourselves that crush us back down? And so what we've learned is and it's called the ABCs of mental health is is the activating event your belief about the event or the consequence. So it's not so much what's happening to us even though that's terrible. Like if I'm living in a place where I'm not in a context that enables me to be healthy or well, I don't have housing, I don't have a decent income, those are all absolute concrete things. And then on an individual level, what do we tell ourselves about that? So what are our beliefs about the bad things that are happening to us? And that usually impacts the consequence of whether it's resilience building, whether it's post-traumatic growth, or whether it's depression and post-traumatic stress disorder. And usually in therapy, that's what we're working on these days is helping people reframe, helping people think about it differently, helping people call up their best self and their strengths and giving those a lot of kudos for getting through day after day. So, I think if you're someone who's really looking for help, there's lots online around cognitive behavioral therapy, around peer support, and around getting to talk to a mental health professional through lots of nonforprofit organizations that offer that up for free.

[32:01]  I love that. Um, kind of what you mentioned on speaking to yourself, the way that we speak to ourselves and things like that. So, believe it or not, I I remember this um gentleman um a good friend that I still speak to and I was in a space of leaving just taking that leap of faith and it it was it was challenging and I remember kind of telling him where I was at and kind of he must have heard in my voice like I just wasn't very confident in

[32:25]  kind of the next chapter

[32:26]  and he says Ephra you know I've seen you time and time again um really rebuild yourself or even help others build their brands. He says, "But there's times in our lives where we teach best what we need the most."

[32:37]  Yeah.

[32:37]  And right behind me there's a sign that says, "Know your worth." And I tell that's just my brand and and that's my motto is know your worth. Understand your value. He says, "Ephan, I don't know if you're knowing your worth at this moment."

[32:47]  He says, "And when you know your worth," he says, "So people teach best what they need the most. At this moment, you need to know your worth." And it was just one of those gut checks. Like you're so right. Right. Like I'm teaching. It's easy for us

[32:58]  to teach out. Yeah.

[33:00]  But when you're in the moment, that's the hard part. And that's why they say always check on your strong friends, right? That that person that always shows up with the smile and the energy and the confidence because from the outside people think I got confidence and energy and all these things. And while I do in the inside sometimes still broken sometimes still asking myself these questions. I'm human,

[33:19]  you know. So I love that we get to talk about it doesn't just mean therapy, right?

[33:23]  And I kind of go back to therapy. I only went one time but I'm an advocate for it because it exactly what you mentioned. I went to this woman and um in person cuz remember I love in person stuff and she was just so good at what she did that she didn't tell me anything. She just asked a whole bunch of questions that allowed me to realize I had the answers in me all the time. I was just thinking about it in a different way and I wasn't seeing it for what it was. Right? So that one moment changed my life to the point that I created a mindset journal. And the mindset joint, if you look at it, it is really questions that people don't ask themselves around and more in the entrepreneurship founder because I feel that that was the space I was in.

[34:01]  But it was questions that people don't ask ourselves that allow us to think differently. And a lot of times that's all we need. And that's what I love about a therapist. So they will ask you questions you've ne in the same way probably the same question you've heard multiple times just not in that way, right? They're really good with their words I would say. And um yeah, I I'm definitely an advocate for it. But as we start to wrap things up, Ann Marie, you've covered so many different things in a very small amount of time. I wish we had more time, but where can people find more of this information, more of the resource that you guys are talking about? What's the website? Where can people even connect with you, Anry?

[34:34]  Yeah. So, first thing I'll say is I really appreciate national not for-profit organizations that are trying to create population mental health. So, in the US, I talk about Mental Health America. They have a great website and I looked at it again today. They have lots of resources and connecting points. So, if anybody's stuck and don't have resources or like an EAP program where they can just contact a therapist or get resources, start there. In Canada, the Canadian Mental Health Association, every jurisdiction in the country, and they're there just to help support people find what they're looking for for mental health. So, I think that's great. What Stepare Solutions is really focused on is helping all of these organizations provide services in a way that's open to anyone and meets them where they're at. So, our services that they want to use. So, build out your continuum. Make sure you have technology based, make sure you have inperson, and make sure they're tied together and co-designed with the people who want to use them. So, we support lots of mental health organizations to do that. We help them with their mental health strategy. We provide technology that they can use for that. So if anybody wants to reach out to me or have discussions about this on how we really build a mental health system for population mental health, um I'm at steppedarolutions.com. Um, and I love these conversations and I think you Ephraim, you said something that caught me too because you mentioned the therapist asked you questions. Um, that to to elicit the answers you have within yourself. You know yourself better than anybody. Um, and you just need sometimes someone who can clear a way and I keep picturing, you know, all these branches and stuff on the pathway. They can clear those away so you can think clearly and move forward. But you also had I think you said a friend or a mentor who asked you about what's your brand? Think about that. Know your worth. So it wasn't it was a therapist and it was people who you're connected to. And I think thinking broadly about that and so yeah reach out to mental health America, reach out to Canadian Mental Health Association, reach out to Stepcare Solutions and also your community. Who are the groups that you like to be with who get you? Who support you? Don't hesitate to reach out to them because every person there is a human and every person there has experienced mental health struggles that we've talked about today.

[37:01]  Yeah. Well, and Marie, I appreciate your time. We have to do part two. I feel like we didn't even there's so much to really dive into in this space and I I just appreciate how authentic and real you were and we got to talk at a level that just suits everybody cuz people are still afraid to take that step and hope that we answered a lot of those questions and really um you know debunked a lot of the things that really kind of going on around the space as well. So Anorie, we are definitely appreciate you. If you guys are still watching, make sure that you guys do like, subscribe and comment. It's definitely been a pleasure. We'll have to do part two.

[37:31]  Yeah, for sure. I love the conversation. Thanks so much.

[37:34]  Exactly. Conversation. There we go. We got catch you guys on the next one later.

[37:38]  See you.