The Untold Secrets of Building Resilient Mental Health Cultures in Schools and Workplaces

[0:17]  We're back here at the Heart and House of Podcast, this time with Be Nice, Kat from Be Nice actually. I love the name, by the way, Kat. if you could just tell people your role with Be Nice and what is Be Nice? What does the organization stand for? What does it do?

[0:30]  Yeah, well, thanks so much for having me. I am the director of programs and expansion at Be Nice, and we are a evidence-based mental health, mental illness and suicide prevention education program for schools, K twelve, community organizations and businesses. So anyone who can learn this quick, simple plan can use the program.

[0:53]  Love it. How long have you been doing

[0:55]  Thirteen years. I'm about to be able to say fourteen in September. so that long with this program and really been talking about mental health though my whole life. So super excited to be able to be in a field for that long, educating people about something I wish I knew when I was young or coming up or had knowledge about or conversations to have when I was younger.

[1:13]  Yeah. you mentioned almost fourteen years. What does it look like when you first started to where is that today, fourteen years later?

[1:31]  Yeah, it's really interesting. So when I first started, we were just in classrooms. And in eighth grade classes, we would talk about mental health stigma. So that means a mark of shame or disrespect when you talk about mental illness or suicide compared to other illnesses. And young people would shout those things out, right? Or it would be the same as when I was growing up. That person is crazy. she's suicidal. We got to stay away from From her, just sort of these ongoing ideas that weren't much different than when I was in high school in the early 2000s, right? And now, even that decade later, students have much more language to talk about mental health challenges, they're less likely to put that mark of shame within. and it's changed almost to

[2:00]  Mm-hmm.

[2:29]  Maybe we have knowledge that is, hey, I can self-diagnose this thing. I can watch a couple of TikTok videos and understand that I might have ADHD or bipolar disorder. So there's different stigma now.

[2:32]  Yeah.

[2:43]  but it is interesting within different communities, and even with us in West Michigan, we talk to a lot of different types of students, and you'll see that there's differences within cultures, within backgrounds that maybe are still holding stigma or different types of stigma. And again, overusing that word, but that is what has changed is opening up those conversations and giving young people language.

[2:56]  Yeah. You said early two thousands. Now I feel like we're kind of in that same age group. I graduated at eight. So did you graduate before that?

[3:09]  Yeah. tw two thousand five, yes. That was my senior year.

[3:22]  my God, look at that. We would have been here in Orlando. Okay, so yeah, we're talking on the same page. Now, you know it's funny you mentioned ADHD. I tell my wife, I said, you know, I think I've always had it. I don't know that I've been diagnosed with it, and I don't know that it really hinders me. and maybe it does, who knows? But it was something you didn't talk about, you know, and the conversations are it was actually crazy to hear my my sister.

[4:03]  Right there.

[4:22]  My niece who was maybe around that time 13, 14 years old, just mentioned about being having anxiety and depressed. And the response from my sister was like, What do you even know about that? Right? And it's like, no, like it's true. Right. I think for a long time we were told that we don't know what we're talking about and there's no way. I don't think we are so much more knowledgeable, especially with access the way that we have now. I think that We understand a little bit more than even our parents may understand, because they their upbringing was we don't talk about it. Right now the conversation is that we do talk about it and there's more young kids that are really talking about it. What do you what are are you excited to know you talked about five, eight, to know all these years later, almost twenty years later, in this case, that life has changed and where we can have this conversation and be more open about it? Are you are you excited about that? Yeah.

[4:42]  Yeah. Yeah. It's really exciting. but also really a space to open up future conversations. so we're not done yet. And that is a really big thing that we at our team have to remember because part of our initial lessons or conversations with individuals would be to

[4:53]  Mm-hmm.

[5:04]  And it's right in our Be Nice Action Plan. So we've got notice, invite, challenge, and you're challenging stigmas that someone might have. And those can be that we never talked about this or shouldn't talk about it or there is a mark of shame. Or the stigma could be I don't have access or every counselor is gonna be like this counselor that I talked to in middle school who was not safe in affirming. so there's different ideas around that. So I think it's important to remember too that some of those stigmas that were created for our parents' generation and grandparents were for a reason to to save their mental health, right? so there are some interesting things to learn about it too. I just find it so interesting to think about resiliency and entire groups of people.

[5:04]  Yeah.

[5:53]  gaining that together. So it's just a really deep discussion that is not finished yet. So that's what's exciting to me to say to a young person, okay, well you know a lot about anxiety disorder now and maybe you have a couple friends who have this diagnosis, but how can you learn early and often to put into place those protective factors, just like you said.

[6:04]  Mm-hmm.

[6:15]  I might have some signs that I struggle with ADHD, but I maybe know when I'm feeling that way. I know my risks and I know some health self-help and support strategies to get through. And my family knows those things as well. So it's just a really blossoming conversation that we still have a lot of room for.

[6:35]  Yeah. Yeah, I think something that you mentioned earlier, it is that stigma of thinking it was bad. I think growing up, if you would have told me I had HDHD my high school years, I would have thought it was something wrong, right? Like and and it there's not. It's just learning how to deal with it and knowing that you have it so you understand how to operate around it. and I think could have probably helped me a lot actually when I think about it in school days. But here we are so many years later, we're still having this conversation, understanding how important it really is. but

[6:48]  Mm-hmm. Right, right.

[7:01]  Kat, I'm just kind of intrigued on how you get here. You know, like I can imagine that you weren't in high school and thinking like, I'm wanting to work for Be Nice or I'm going to go to this nonprofit. 'Cause in reality, there was no there's no money in nonprofits and a lot of people even know these nonprofits existed in the way that they do. and they they impact the way they do. What brought you to the nonprofit sector?

[7:27]  Yeah. I mean it's really interesting and nonprofit, I kind of always did think I would be in a people serving position. so I didn't grow up my my mom was a school teacher for 36 years in a public school in Grand Rapids, one of our largest school systems. so I sort of always had that altruism of, you know, she had benefits at that were great at the time and we took the summers off, right?

[7:40]  Mm-hmm.

[7:53]  but I really understood, you know, finding passion in the thing that you do every day is what's gonna keep you going. So I thank my mom for for instilling that into me. As far as teaching people about a really difficult topic, I didn't understand that until I was at university. I was at Michigan State University, and I joined this

[7:56]  Yeah.

[8:21]  workforce of young college students that were working for a teen health center and we would go into Lansing Public Schools and teach about hygiene. And we talk about such sexual health education and mental health sometimes, although those lessons weren't as fully developed as we have right now, and substance use prevention. But we were close in age and we were connecting to these kids and talking about difficult stuff. and that's really where I found this passion for hey, this is just this is a person who is engaged right now. and I never I never really remember that with presentations when I was younger, like just an age difference or somebody speaking in different language that I didn't understand. So I really valued when I would have students connect with me in that way. And then as I joined AmeriCorps and got this position at the MHF, which was really

[8:51]  Mm-hmm.

[9:22]  It was just put in place for me, right? It you sometimes you look back and say, How did that happen? What would have happened if this decision or that decision didn't fall through? But I really was watching another individual and our founder CEO, Christy Buck, who had a lot of those skills too, and I was given space right away here, talk to this group of adults about suicide prevention. And

[9:34]  Mm-hmm.

[9:47]  People would come up to me and say, that was really great, you know, and we'd we'd have surveys that that were five out of five. And being someone who already has a brain like Eeyore, like that is my personality, glass half empty, a lot of negative self-talk. And listen, Ephraine, I've done the work, like I know that that's how my brain's made now. But looking back, that positive feedback was like,

[9:47]  Yeah.

[10:13]  I didn't know everybody doesn't have this skill to speak about tough stuff. I thought this is this is easy, right? so I think just just a lot of domino effect of passion for other people, but then also finding I kind of have a skill that it seems like I remember one time asking an intern, okay, you're gonna do these couple slides. And she looked at me like, No, I'm not. No, I'm not gonna speak so understanding too, like that that takes a little bit of different

[10:13]  Yeah.

[10:43]  skill set to be able to talk about a really for some people difficult conversation, engage individuals in it and be passionate about it at the same time. It's the perfect situation.

[10:55]  Yeah. Yeah. I love that you said that. Yeah, because I still kind of struggle with those things. The imposter syndrome. and I would say I'm thirty-six now. It wasn't until I was thirty years old realizing the value in storytelling, the value that I had in in my voice. Because for a long time growing up, people actually made fun of my voice. So, now more than never, I mean s I'm in rooms with people that

[11:07]  Mm-hmm.

[11:20]  Are 20 years older than me, 30 years older than me, because ideally, Kat, we are the next leaders, right? That are going to be at these tables at the head of them. And realizing the power that we have, that we are people are connecting with us, right? Cause we're still kind of young in that space. and I love it. I love that you were able that someone gave you the opportunity to really spread your wings. I think that's the most important part as well, is that someone has seen something in us before we even seen it in ourselves. and and now we're telling stories, not just our stories, but the stories of others and realizing the impact in that. There's so much maturity maturity in that. I'm laughing because I'm like the the teacher in probably cats, because the mom and you know, put that in her is probably judging me right now. Like, wait, you said that incorrect. But do you ever do that? Are are you ever in that spot like where you like, my god, listen, that's not how you say or my god, like because you have that backbone of your mom?

[16:03]  No, no. I no, no, I don't hear I don't hear those things. I'm really interested in what the person has having to say. I'm laughing because I'm right now putting together a retreat for our next generation. So as you were speaking, I was thinking about being in a position where now it's our turn to say, I wanna hear more story. I shouldn't be talking in front of a group of eighth graders. I mean, I'm right on the precipice, right? Of like

[20:47]  Uh-huh.

[22:20]  Don't care what I I'm not using the right words. I'm trying to use words that aren't fitting in, right? I do use bro a lot, but like in an ironic way, because my stepdaughters use it. but now it's our turn to say, you speak, right? Let's go. And also that's what our program is all about is finding individuals that have a voice within that community they're in to talk about a life saving.

[23:53]  Yeah. Love it.

[23:53]  in a in a life-saving conversation, right? So here's this tool, but coming from you, this is going to mean so much more. So no, the so I'm putting together this retreat, right? And we're doing presentations to each other. So the way I learned, this was really traumatizing, but it cut it out right away. So again, at that Willow Teen Health Center, we would all get together on a Saturday as instructors. We're maybe nineteen, twenty year olds and we would present our information to each other and if you said so or some the whole group would scream it back at you. So I've never done you say like f seven people are just screaming at you. You might be a little bit hungover, you know, 'cause you're in college and it's Saturday, but I don't know, there was th so

[23:53]  Mm-hmm. That is funny. Okay.

[23:53]  I never judge that. And I'm trying to figure out how to give people the skills to to say. So and I also had a substitute teacher, which they now call guest teachers. We don't call them subs anymore. she said, You all are being immature. So now that's how I heard that word. Immature. So you're all good.

[23:53]  That's funny. That's too funny. Y you know, the art of facilitation is real. I used when I was a facilitator for the airline industry, kinda to what you said, before we ever ever really got in front of you know, students to teach or adults to teach, they would make us like, Hey, this is your your topic, you have five to seven minutes, you're gonna come back, you're going to share it, and then that's exactly what they're doing. They were counting the ums, they were counting all these different things. And one of the w

[23:53]  Yeah.

[23:53]  And I've learned this really early on. It's okay to pause, right? Because every single word that comes out your mouth is very valuable. Nice is actually Les Brown. And he was saying, be careful on what you're saying. If you need to pause to gather your thoughts, make sure you pause and gather your thoughts. Because every single word that comes out of our mouth is very valuable. I would say I become a better speaker over the years because of the things that people have really taught me and and because I care. I really do want to become better.

[23:53]  Mm.

[24:04]  At what I do. I since I was young, I was nineteen years old, Cat. I was just telling the story. I was nineteen years old, believe it or not, at Subway, running a Subway already. And I remember putting a Les Brown or Eric Thomas Sagwajar. This is exactly what I was. Yeah. I would I would sit here and and practice like a Les Brown talk or Gary V talk. And here I am now in these in these rooms where I am talking and I am telling the stories and I am the leader in the room. And who would ever known? As you mentioned, Kat, I would just

[24:16]  Sandwich artists. Is that what the they call sandwich artists, right?

[24:28]  Doing what I felt happy doing. And here we are really living the life of of purpose and passion. You know, I and some may think that there's not an out of a lot of money in it, but it does fill our cup. It does allow us to feel like we've made an impact. and we're still so young. We're still going. I just told spoke to someone, he says, Efraine, I am 25 years older than you. So who wants to listen to what happened a whole century ago? The people are listening to you guys.

[24:40]  Mm-hmm.

[24:52]  You guys are the next leaders. You guys know what's happening today, not twenty five years ago. And I was like, you're right. And from that moment on, I cherish that. Cause it is true. I I people are looking at us because we have all the wisdom and knowledge of what it was in the past, what's today, and what's also happening in the future. We're not too old, Cap.

[25:04]  No, no. I mean, I'm I'm I'm feeling like I'm at that I I hang out with two teenagers, right? I have two two teenage bonus daughters and they're just teaching me a lot. we just had a situation where they're just and they would be bummed if I told the whole story, but they can point out injustice like in a minute, right? And it's the encouragement of we just had this discussion last night, hey This might not change. You might not see the change, but the benefit and the change here, the cool thing is you can call it out, right? You we have created spaces now, and this is for mental health and suicide prevention where we can talk about it without it. The shock and awe isn't there, right? So if I notice injustice as a young woman specifically, as somebody who's an ally to other groups. it's my job to point it out. And even if that doesn't move the needle, what it moves is now I'm feeling confident to do it the next time, more voices are being heard. so I think that's a really difficult space for us to be in in our generation and age too, is we're noticing more differences of yes, this is how it used to be, and it probably won't change in the near future, but to just create spaces and encourage young people to continue to try to make that change, right? Like I might not move the needle needle on suicide prevention in seven days and have a really tough week or even a month or it's hard to see sometimes the outcome of that work. so it's really interesting to me to

[25:16]  Mm-hmm.

[25:28]  to encourage that next group and even ourselves to represent that of, hey, shout it out. Say something when you notice that there's a change or something different or that this could be better. Say it and say it to the right person too. Right. So be a person, you can tell things. Other people can tell things too.

[25:40]  Yeah. Yeah, and and the way that I look at it, my analogy my analogy is always going to be some sort of like plant or outdoor. But I I heard this analogy or this saying from a leader and it was fertilizing the future, right? And when we think about fertilizing the future, we're not going to always see it grow. We just know that we were a part of the growth, right? And and while some may come back and thank us, some will actually never come thank us, but they may be thinking about it.

[25:52]  Yeah, yeah.

[26:41]  I've actually tried to be really good at that and I've called my old supervisor that gave me a chance at nineteen years old to be a leader. Like he came in and says, You're going to be the manager of this location. I said, What in the world? Like I just graduated high school, you know, I'm just I I just wanted to work and make money. And that moment, going back to that one you know, to you, you had someone that changed your life, right? And kinda spoke to you. I always believe there's a moment, there's a story or person that really changes your life. And for me there were so many of them, especially the trauma and everything that I had to overcome. That I love to call those people back because they probably didn't know the impact that they've actually created in my life. Here I am, thirty-six years old, shouldn't made it this far, but it was them that allowed me to get here. So for you, Cat, is is you know, you're that to someone today in this organization. That you may never get the praise you deserve, but just know because you show up every single day that it's happening. Whether it's just one person that sh that, you know, it became better. Because of what you've done for the last fourteen years. That means something. That means the work is actually working. We're not going to change hundreds of lives, but we could definitely change some lives. And I think that's and then because we change those lives, what happens is a trickle effect. Right? Now they start to change other people's lives. Now they become the storytellers in their own in their own lives. it's something powerful in the work that you're doing, Kat. I don't think you even realize the the the po the power in, you know, the work you do at times. I got a question. I'm looking at your background.

[27:31]  Well, that's great. Thank you. And you too, right?

[28:20]  Uh-huh. Now go ahead, go ahead. I'll let you talk.

[29:10]  We gotta do that. I was gonna just say you too, like you're opening up these doors for people to tell stories. And that is one of the pieces with our work with mental health education, the very first time that we created leadership groups within schools, within these high schools of ten to twenty students that are ninth to twelfth grade. we would have an all school assembly and some of those students would be super brave, go on stage in front of their peers and tell their story of their what they were going through then or their journey with starting to notice they were experiencing mental health challenge. So giving space for that, you know, that's number one how we heal and how we learn and how we go to the next step and the next level is hearing those stories of empowerment. So thanks for what you do too.

[29:59]  Yeah, no, absolutely. I cringe when you sit in front of an auditorium at high school. I'm like, my god. I can't even imagine. I was actually the kid that never raised my hand in class because I didn't want to ask the question. I didn't want to feel like I was stupid or asking the wrong question. so knowing that I do this, it's always like mind boggling to me. Like I would lit I I recently did did something in front of a crowd and it get in the car and I looked at my friend, I'm like, the little e frame right now is probably cringing like

[30:49]  Yeah. Yeah. Right.

[30:49]  Who would have thought that I'd be doing that? I start laughing sometimes, but it it is d that's when you know you're doing something right, you know? and I still get nervous, I still get butterflies. I don't know how you feel, Cap, but every time I gotta go tell a story, I'm probably like sweating. I am in my head, big time. But it's when you get up there and you just know what you're doing it for, the words just flow out. Like the words just come out and and and that's how you know you're in the right spaces doing the right things. And I can imagine that's exactly s how you feel at times. But I did want to talk about this background. You got so many books. Are you a reader? What's your favorite book? What should people be reading to to work on the mind?

[30:49]  sometimes and I was reading your hot tips for how to have a good recording and it said don't have a cluttered background, but this is this was my COVID and quarantine project was to put this bookshelf together. So the majority of them are

[30:49]  Ha ha ha.

[30:49]  sailing books. So that's my partner Brian and my passion is to go on sailboats, race sailboats. Now it's turned into a little bit of more cruising sailboats. but it's also hiking books like where to go. We're about to go to Canada to go on a 30 mile loop hike with a 16 and 17 year old. and that's gonna be really fun. So yeah, the adventure, right?

[30:49]  Okay. Hell yeah.

[30:49]  so that you could grab one of these and put it into practice. You want to go canoeing in the Algonquin? I got you. I can send it to you.

[30:49]  Wow. That is crazy. So is that what turns when you gotta turn it off because of the hard work that you're doing, is that what you go to? The outdoors, the hiking, the sailing, is that your thing?

[30:49]  Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that's it. That's where I go. I go to a place where I don't have to talk a lot. So my coworker just recently said this. I said during a presentation, I am an introvert. And I know that I'm an introvert. So I can be extroverted when I'm presenting. And again, like you said, when we're passionate about the thing. Also, when I've had a recent story that really works in, that's my favorite thing when I'm presenting about noticing changes in somebody's behavior, noticing signs that someone might be in a mental health crisis. And I have a recent story that maybe we all know because it's a shared knowledge. It could be a news event of mental health crisis or it could be something that I have just learned or connected with and now I can share that and work that in. That's really awesome. But when I have to turn it off and that's what's What's really great about having people who know you and setting boundaries and learning about your own mental health is just so critical to everyone. Does that mean every single person has to be connected with a professional therapist? I wish we could get there, right? But the resources aren't there. But being able to really unpack

[30:49]  Ha ha ha.

[30:49]  what keeps you healthy. So what keeps me mentally healthy is to recharge by not having to have a conversation about everything, right? I know people who love to talk when they're home and about the TV that they're watching. And you know, my partner and I are able to just sometimes not talk at all. We'll take a drive, we put

[30:49]  Yeah.

[30:53]  an audiobook on maybe, right, to listen, but we're ultimately going on a hike or we're going canoeing or we're going on a boat somewhere. So that silence is really a recharge for me after talking all day. Yeah.

[30:57]  Love it. Golden. Yeah, now it's golden. this year's birthday, my wife wanted to take me to I don't know, like on a boat or something, and and do all these things. But that means there was people involved. And just like you, I said, Listen, put me on the grass by somebody's body of water and let's have a picnic. And let me just lay there because that's what I need. Cause just like you, I don't think that

[31:01]  I don't know what about. Yeah.

[31:05]  People understand how mentally exhausting this could be. I listen to so many stories. I have my own story, and when listening to somebody's story, it sometimes also ignites my story a little bit, right? There's been times I've had about been on a podcast and I I would get in tears because of just thinking of something, right? and people was like, but you talk all day. Like, how hard could it be? I'm like, if you only knew. So while I could be the talkative person in the room, I could also be the quietest person in the room. And people's like, there's no way. And I just start laughing. I'm like, yeah, I could be quiet. If I'm comfortable enough, I'm probably the life of the party. There's a difference there. But when I'm in a new room, I am the quietest in a room cat. Because I'm probably also just kind of seeing what's happening around me as well. Is that how you are?

[31:09]  Assessing, yeah. Yeah. well, I don't know. When I'm around new people, I'm really trying to make some connections sometimes, but it's about the recharge. So again, I have a tribe of people that are my family and my chosen family, that know, hey, if Kat doesn't respond to a text, in five days, that's okay. It doesn't mean that she's forgotten about you, doesn't love you, forgot your birthday. Like I'm gonna come around and be, but that that tribe has minimized over time. And you probably understand this too. I mean, there's just a point in our life where we've got to keep it tight because the energy can cannot flow out. And that's what I see about giving back in work is that I

[31:13]  Yeah. Contagious.

[31:47]  I can feel that purpose of like I'm putting it all out there. but then I know that my people are gonna understand if I shut it down for a certain amount of time. I my best friend lives in New Orleans and we might talk once a month. but then when we get together, it's like, man, there's so much love and connection. and I think that's you just gotta find what works for you and the people that will accept.

[32:22]  Mm. Yeah.

[32:44]  that and understand this is for my mental health, either these boundaries or these things that I need more. I need more human connection because some people need that and that's really, really awesome. But yeah.

[33:06]  That's a Yeah. I love it. I love that we're talking about it because I I've been in that space. I've actually had a conversation with a friend recently. probably ghosted him for a little bit. you know, from talking every week to I was head down, really focused. and he thought he did something wrong. I finally spoke to him and and he said something that really ignited me and I took it as almost fuel to the fire, right? So I had took this leap of faith. And I remember him saying, How is your small community doing or your small business? And I'm like, small? Like in my mind, it was that tip of my shoulder, like I'ma show you. Not that I felt that he was a bad friend, but sometimes people say something that really str strike you to move forward. So I've called him back after, you know, we were like texting here and there, but we were not on phones like we used to. So then I finally told him, I said, Hey man, you know, this is what happened. He's like, Why didn't you tell me? And I'm like, Listen, it I I'm not mad at you. I still love you. It just sometimes

[33:28]  Yeah. Okay.

[33:31]  For my mentor, as you said, I had to do what was best for me in that moment. I didn't think you're a bad friend. I didn't take anything, you know, of anything, you should be happy that you motivated me to really put, you know, the pedal to the metal and and look what's come out of it. You know what I mean? So I think I still don't know how d and he says, Well, next time you need to communicate that, I Well, maybe communication is what I need to work on, but I had to do what was right for me and my mentor at that moment. So yeah, cat, I'm a hundred percent with you on that one.

[33:34]  Mm-hmm. Yeah. Hello that. What are the things like how do you sorry. How do you how else do you practice that? Like are you are you educating people about those how do you h I always like to talk about this, like how do we explain because

[33:38]  Can we talk about some of these programs as we start Go ahead. No, go ahead.

[33:41]  I relate it to my coworker who has asthma, right? And when we're having construction go on or there's a high pollen day, she has no issue with texting the group and saying, Hey, you know, I gotta take a minute or I've got to check on this. I mean she has a chronic illness, right? So if I have this thing that I know I need your help and I even need, you know, my tribe to help me out with it sometimes to remind me. So we remind our coworker. Well, it's probably the air quality in here that's going on. yeah, right? or do you have your inhaler? Cause we're gonna be going outside. You know, just those reminders that we do for people who we take care of. And I need those reminders too of are you sure you're gonna go on this weekend trip and then you're gonna schedule another f few and I'm gonna end up canceling something on someone, you know? so how do you best explain that or communicate it with other people? 'Cause this guy's like, Well, you just gotta tell me. Well, that's difficult.

[33:44]  Yeah. I I think that was a we're not gonna please everybody type ish. you know, and it's like we don't also need to explain to everybody because we'll find ourselves explaining a lot and it's like if you are a friend and you love me the way that you say you do, you would understand, right? And so in that moment it's like you you have to understand where I'm coming from. Like that that is growth on my part because I could have just not came back and said anything and been been upset. And I think that's where I used to be, is where I would look at those type of individuals and say, this is a fake friend. He didn't believe in me. but it's not true. I mean, my own spouse has kind of sometimes I felt not purposely, but maybe said things where I felt doubted, you know. I think probably it is in the moment to say something because sometimes you like you keep with that onamo animosity. So I think it is communication at that level of saying, Hey, I don't know, because this is how me and my wife, and I can imagine you and your partner have these conversations. Is that it's not what you say is how you say it. Right. So so many times I find myself and my wife is like, Well, I didn't mean it like that. I'm like, Well, I I get you didn't mean it like that, but that's how I came across and now I'm in my feelings. So how do we work on that part of it? Right. And and I was telling my friend same, he's like, I know I have a communication problem. I'm like, I don't think it's a communication problem because we communicate well. It's really being mindful of our words.

[33:48]  yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[33:51]  Because they hold so much power. Going back to what we mentioned earlier, the ums, the yos, the all these things, they hold so much power. So we're in a space as leaders, understanding to never dim somebody's light. So how am I not dimming somebody's light? How am I not making someone feel insecure? How am I not making feel someone feel you know, self-confident or or the lack of self-confidence or whatever that may look like? So it's just being, I think, more mindful in those, but also just being open to the conversations and knowing that we can't please everybody is how I look at it. I mean I'm so much tapped in, I would say, nowadays, that it's almost like I know who I am authentically. And if people don't like that, I cannot help it.

[33:55]  Sure. Yeah.

[33:58]  You know, so that's how I look at it. Am I I'm probably wrong. Okay, cat. That's just somebody's gonna call us out in the comments.

[34:02]  No, I like it. No. I agree.

[34:06]  caso we start wrapping up, I want to to talk about some of these programs. so people know exactly what they can find at Be Nice if they go to the website, some of the things that you guys are doing. How can people be really involved from volunteering standpoint, monetary standpoint, any of the things like that?

[34:10]  Yeah, that's awesome. Well, thanks for giving it space because it is and I've been in the space now over a decade and I see a lot of different pro programs that are super, super valuable that teach an individual what to do in a crisis situation, right? Like CPR and we all know

[34:14]  Mm-hmm.

[34:18]  We most of us need a CPR class. Like I just feel safer knowing somebody can save my life in that way. You're 10 times more likely to come in contact with someone having a mental health crisis than someone who needs CPR. So when we look at it that way, okay, yeah, let's educate individuals. What our program does, which is super unique, is bring it to it bring it more upstream, right? So I'm not training somebody necessarily what to do in a crisis, although we have those trainings available. This is a culture shift. So I'm identifying my youth group, my workplace, my school and I'm saying, hey, we can do better at making individuals feel more psychologic psychologically safe. And what does that mean? That means I'm walking into a space and I feel connected to the people around me, even though we might listen to different music and have, you know, different hobbies and likes and interests, but we're all in this space together doing this collective thing, right? but then how do I have those conversations of hey, I've noticed that you haven't been returning my text lately when you typically do, or I've noticed that you're really angry lately, or I know this risk factor, you have a new baby at home and it seems difficult. Tell me more about it. But then we get to what resources are available to us. So we want to be before that person enters into a mental health challenge, creating spaces where we empower mental health every day. It becomes a typical conversation. But then yes, ultimately, can we move the needle on suicide? So we know that in Michigan, we have moved the needle.

[34:18]  Yeah.

[35:58]  So we've reported the first in several years dip in suicide for people under the age of 18 in numbers. And one is too many, but we know that we're doing work where a young person can have the confidence to say, hey, either I'm worried about my friend, let's get them some crisis resport support, or that person in crisis can say to a trusted adult, I'm feeling this way. So what be nice is is is that program and it's train the trainer. And again, like I said earlier, we want individuals within the space to feel confident.

[36:00]  Yeah.

[36:35]  To train others and to use this program. So I'm not at every space. we have programming in Florida, in Texas.

[36:41]  Love it.

[36:43]  And those individuals there are passionate and they're confident and they're saying this is a simple tool that I can teach to others. So we everything can be found at be nice.org. anybody can use that program and we are a nonprofit, so we do keep our programming costs super, super low. So we rely on individuals that have and a lot of our donors are individuals who have experienced mental health crisis, or the really cool thing too. Is an individual who says, you know, I didn't have this, and this is where I would donate. I didn't have this education when I was young. I wish I did. I'm gonna support it now. And that can come with, you know, that can come with financial donation. It can also come with, I I think my niece or nephew school would really benefit from this program. I'm gonna set up a meeting between the principal and Kat.

[36:47]  Yeah.

[37:39]  So, you know, it's all there at be nice.org. You can read our evidence-based study. and we're just really thankful that we have platforms where people will say, I'm gonna take this information and spread it to others. So those are our shining stars, and we call them our liaisons, our people that spread be nice.

[38:00]  Love it. Meeting people are where they're at, right? is this are you guys have any socials or anything that people can also check out?

[38:08]  Yeah, we do have an Instagram. It's at Be Nice I for Michigan. and we have a Facebook, which I think is the same, Facebook Be NiceMI. And all again, all of that is on be nice.org. The really cool part of our socials too is when students are doing some of that leadership work and that activity to prevent suicide in their own space and to be mentally mentally healthy and aware. And then we can share that out on our socials. So it's a really cool, empowering, empowering thing. If you're listening to these stories and thinking, Yeah, you know, I never talked about mental health without. was in high school and it's super cool to see kids doing that work firsthand.

[38:49]  Love it. I love it. Thank you so much for the conversation. I would say, Kat, really letting us know more about be nice, letting us know more about the work that you on a day to day basis. But I'm gonna put you in the hot seat and I'm going to ask you to leave us with a little bit of motivation. There's leaders out there that sometimes forget the why. We're in a to you know, you talked about just funding. I think so many people are forgetting the why because of the stress level around funding and the changes are happening within our country. But how do you keep people motivated in the time that they're demotivated?

[39:19]  Yeah, I again listen. I would say to that next person is if you don't have a not a lot of qualitative feedback to your programming or you're not seeing that why, create a space where people can give you feedback. So We have students write us handwritten anonymous questions. And if you don't have a question, you can write something that you learned. And the amount of just thank you, thank you, thank you for being here that we get, because maybe they don't have a question or they just want to express I love it. So I would say to that person, create a space where people can give you that feedback. You're going to get some challenging feedback, which will help you to grow and get better. But you'll also get that feedback of the thank you and listen to those, post them around your space. We have spaces where you can physically see them as great reminders.

[40:11]  Yeah. Love it. I I call it receive your flowers cat before you're at your deathbed.

[40:17]  There you go. Yep. I like that.

[40:21]  Cat has been definitely been a pleasure, guys. These are the conversations that we're having with leaders all throughout the United States. people that are really just passionate and and and doing purposeful work because they understand the impact that it makes, not just in their lives, but the lives that actually need these type of resources. So if you guys are still watching, make sure that you guys do like, subscribe, and comment. Check out Be Nice as well and figure out how you can also be a part of it. Cat, we thank you. My name's Ephrain. We'll catch you on the next one. Latest.

[40:21]  Thanks, Ibrahim. Bye.