"This Is What Normal People Feel Like" - Brad Kittredge's Mental Health Revolution

[0:16]  Welcome back to another episode here on the Heart and Hustle Podcast. Our next guest, he watched his father battle untreated depression for over a decade. However, now he's actually transforming mental health care with a little bit of AI. So, we get we start off right there, Brad. Um, the last time we spoke, you you are a fan of AI and some people while it's a buzz for others, some are struggling with depression and and how does AI really change their story for those that are thinking about AI and using it for just conversation.

[0:47]  Oh man, if Ryan, you're jumping right in to uh to all the meat of it. So, um yeah, I mean, I know, look, we're touching on two topics here that are probably on a lot of people's mind. You know, we got a lot of people struggling with mental health challenges for themselves or people they love. A lot of people looking at what AI is doing, hearing a lot of commentary and predictions about it that on one hand can feel interesting and exciting and on another hand really ominous and scary about what it does to our society, to our connections, to our opportunities. Um and so you know let let me constrain my thoughts for for the moment to sort of the intersection of AI and mental health treatment where where I spend a lot of my time uh and have a lot of passion. Um, and you know, one of the areas where I think that's most interesting, where we have invested a lot of resource is in thinking about the way that we prescribe medication for mental health issues. And um historically, unfortunately, the mental health the health care system overall and the mental health part of the health care system have often thought of this class of medications often used for depression and and uh other conditions um as being roughly equally effective um and generally have accepted a convention that we would call guess and check prescribing. If you've ever gone to to try to get an SSRI or something similar, often a provider uh with all the best intentions will say, "Try this and let's see how it goes." Um, and the reality that we know is that that approach is is in ineffective and inadequate. If you look at sort of outcome studies relative to these medications, they're pretty widely criticized for only being a moderately more effective than placeos, which are, you know, sort of fake treatments in those studies. What we know though is that there are lots of different subtypes of uh depression. We I'd call depression and you know anxiety and other conditions extremely heterogene heterogeneous. And so you've got this diagnostic category that puts a label on something um but there's a lot of different things underneath that label. And if we give everybody the same treatment only some are going to respond. And so we're going to get outcomes on average that only look okay. But if you utilize machine learning, AI, and other sophisticated approaches to understand the distinct subtypes within these categories, match them to the right treatment, make sure that data is available to prescribers when they're choosing the treatment for somebody, you can actually turn this sort of guess and check prescribing into more precision medicine and get the right treatment for the right person sooner. uh and that means uh better symptom reduction, fewer side effects that drives better adherence to medication and treatment courses and better outcomes ultimately. Um and so we've been uh building and using tools like this for the past eight years at Brightside Health and and um AI has the opportunity, you know, within our category to continue to really accelerate and and turbocharge the the work we're doing as well as in a lot of agencies. You know, one of the main uses right now, probably the main use for AI tools is actually as a a sort of pseudotherapist or a companion. Um, and that's just happened organically in tools that weren't built necessarily for that like chat GPT. So, we're going to see AI have a major impact on mental health care delivery uh as well as mental health overall uh in the coming years. And and I think we could talk all day about it.

[4:08]  Yeah. I mean, I I really want to let's be real on it. People think that AI is scary, right? It freaks people out. What are you hearing from some of your providers and patients that that uh helps you walk that line between that bold and being grounded?

[4:24]  Yeah. I mean that concept of AI as one thing I think you know can feel scary. I think we need to keep in mind that AI is just a tool. That's like you know saying that

[4:34]  computers are scary or something like that right there. There are tools that can be used for lots of good stuff and people when in the wrong ends or with the wrong intentions can use them for negative things. So AI is a a set of tools um and really what's notable that we need to think about is sort of how they're used. So again within mental health in very specific applications I think there's a potential to really substantially improve the way care is delivered and scale the way you know high quality care delivery so more people can get that good care. Um and that doesn't mean it's going to replace providers. That means in many ways it's going to complement providers. is going to help people find the right thing faster, have the right sort of care journey and and complement to the the care they may get from an expert. If we talk about AI more broadly and say is AI scary, I think there are lots of questions around what AI is going to do to work, right? What jobs might be replaced as we think about AI as a productivity tool and then what people do when you know they lose their jobs and the impact that has on all of us. I think um this big question about our sense of purpose, about our sense of connection, about the way we get satisfaction and and and joy in li our lives um is going to be really pressure tested by AI if if uh some of the predictions about how it's going to change our society are true. And so as I really care about and think about mental health most broadly, that's one of the main things I'm tracking in this sort of next few years as AI starts to really become more mainstream is what does it what impact does it have on our sense of self, on our sense of purpose, on our sense of connection, and then what downstream impact is that going to have on substance use, on mental health challenges, and on the way we help people manage those. I would say Brad you're very ahead of the curve when you talk about hey we we are already have it here and we'll continue to do the research on it to make sure that it's actually for the good in our organization not a lot of people can actually say that and it really stems from as we mentioned a little earlier all this stems from your dad you know seeing your dad um have this fight and this struggle you built one of the most innovative mental health platforms I would say Brad and if we take it back a little bit what moment in your dad's struggle actually made you say this can't be how the system truly works.

[6:45]  Unfortunately, the experience that my dad has had and that my family has had mirrors the experience that so many families have had with um mental health care delivery in the US. Um my father grew up in an environment where it wasn't really acceptable to talk about mental health or to to feel like he was complaining. And so he just kind of white knuckled it through his childhood and young adulthood and and uh he married my mom. Um who finally I think when when they were together uh pushed him to go get some help. Uh he was finally able to open up to someone for the first time and she encouraged him to get some support and he went and and engaged the health care system. And between his first appointment though and when he finally got treatment that worked for him was about 10 years. And so he got stuck in this cycle of

[7:35]  failed treatment attempts, of dropped referrals, of inadequate follow-ups. Um, it was a different time in terms of the medications available, right? It was earlier in the development of some of these drugs that that we know can be very effective. Um, but it was a decade of his life that was in some ways lost because when he finally got the treatment that worked for him, he woke up one day and he looked at my mom and he said, "Wow, this is what normal people feel like." And he hadn't felt like that in his entire life. Uh and it was really an awakening for him and and you know proud to to report that he's been doing great since then. Um and really proud that he's been really open about sharing his experience and not um treating it like something stigmatized and and has been able to share it with me and has uh you know blessed me being able to share it with others so that people don't have to go through that same experience. But as I saw and knew the impact of his one experience and saw through my work the system level challenges in care delivery, um knowing how many other millions of people and families that affected, um I just couldn't not try to do something about it. It's so good, man, to just think that um you continue to carry your dad's legacy by doing the work that you truly do, right? Um, and it wasn't meant I I would say in this way, but truly what it is, the story that you carry would always be my my father, you know, and now you're a parent as well. So, how is watching your father's pain for those years really shaped the kind of father and leader that you are trying to be today or you are today?

[9:06]  I would say that it's it's just a labor of love. Uh, it's real passion. And it's real, you know, it's part of my own search for meaning and purpose in my life and and finding that thing that I can work on and pour myself into every day with real conviction and clarity and consistency. And um you know, I came back to that point as you know, uh sort of really being inspired by him, but also inspired by every dad out there and every mom out there, right? and just the universality of the struggles that so many of us have, the connections that we value, uh the way we we want to express care and and um seeing a big problem and wanting to be someone

[9:47]  who can stand up and take a chance to try to fix problems instead of let them persist. And so

[9:52]  um it's uh it's really it's not work. It's it's just love. I want to talk about so you're a dad but one thing we I caught that you said last time when we were on our first call was that you said you wake up early every day and I mean kudos to you because I couldn't do it but what does this morning routine actually look like? Like what are you chasing in those quiet hours

[10:13]  while while people are still asleep and before everybody wakes up?

[10:16]  Yeah. Well, don't get me wrong, it's not like I'm uh you know fully optimizing and waking up early so I can have hyper productivity. A lot of the times it's it's a slow morning and and you know I've got three little kids um and they wake up at different times, but often I'm finding myself waking up early and and I think the thing I really value in that time is just a little bit of quiet, a little bit of calm before the storm, so to speak,

[10:41]  being able to drink coffee and sit there and like watch the sun come up slowly, hear the birds and think a little bit. Um, and so, uh, you know, there are days when I'll get out and exercise as well, days where I might be, you know, starting to do a little bit of work more early, but I actually am not in the camp of trying to like ultra optimize my life and make every minute product productive. I actually think, you know, one of the keys to uh, sustaining effort over time and to living uh, you know, in in a balanced way with contentment is to not try to overoptimize, to keep nonoptimized parts of our day. um that we can just be in and not be in a hurry to do anything. And and for me that's the early mornings.

[11:23]  Yeah, I I hear you though. Sometimes waking up a little early, you know, I say early for me it's like 8:30 in the morning. However, waking up 8:30 now, not working. I I think I told you last time we spoke, my daughter, I don't know what it is with her, but she's waking up at 7:30 in the morning now. And she wakes up very loud all the time. Like coming in budging the room and just loud as possible where her little brother's sleeping.

[11:44]  Yeah.

[11:44]  And I'm like, that's it. The whole family has now having to

[11:48]  It makes you feel better. My dog got me up at 4:15 this morning. So,

[11:52]  oh, that happened to me yesterday, man. I woke up at 5:15, at 6:15. I'm like, what? And at 7:00, I'm like, my wife says, "How do you sleep?" I'm like, "Well, I woke up every single hour." So, you know, life is life in today. And some days better than others. But no, it is great when, as you mentioned, you could have that time in the morning. It it truly does make a difference, you know, to sit there and cup of coffee or um just sit outside and let the let the brain wake it up it itself up. Yeah.

[12:19]  You know, cuz so many times we just get straight into work and and we're just trying to solve a problem, but so many times we just need that break for ourselves. It's that reset that allows us to actually show up for others.

[12:28]  That's right. And I think, you know, we we're we're bombarded with messages about hustle culture and and, you know, I'm a founder and I take, you know, my work pretty seriously, but I also think that there's there's just this like treadmill of of hustle culture and life optimization that we uh sort of hold up as a standard that actually can be really insidious and that we've got to be able to have downtime and calm time and not be in a hurry um to balance that out and to give ourselves the ability to keep going over the long term and and to enjoy our life today, not just be constantly chasing a goal or a finish line. And so, you know, whether that's the morning or another part of your day and whatever you do with that time, um I I believe it's a really important practice.

[13:11]  If the Heart and Hustle podcast has ever sparked any idea or made you think differently, do us a favor. Make sure to guys share this, post it on LinkedIn, or even text that nonprofit friend that you just have. Whatever works. This is what keeps the conversation going. and allows us to just grow this community together. Seriously, we appreciate you. Can we talk a little bit more about what you guys are actually doing at Bright Side and that health model because it it is very different than what other people are doing. Other people just think therapy or meds, but your thought process on this is completely different. Could we just tap into that a little bit so those that are watching may not know exactly what's going on?

[13:50]  Yeah, I'm happy to talk about it. uh you know it's some people are really interested in the health care system and some people are really turned off by it because it's so complex and bureaucratic um but I find it fascinating trying to untangle it and to think about how do you actually change it and so for for those who care about that uh you can uh listen for those who don't maybe uh push skip um so we uh focused on this question of like how do we how do we use tele medicine um not just as a way to give people access to more care. Not just to sort of take care as it was being delivered and move it online,

[14:27]  but to actually improve the quality of care and to fundamentally change the way mental health care is delivered through this paradigm shift from traditional care to to virtual care. And you know, we started this in 2018 before COVID uh actually you know, early mid 2017. And um co really accelerated this shift where at that point only a a couple of percent of encounters were in this sort of virtual world through COVID and and to now about 60% of mental health care encounters are now virtual meaning over you know video call and so it's the norm where more people are getting care and sticking with care um and it works really well. Um, of course, some people still prefer in person and that's great um if that's what's right for them. But in this paradigm where we have a more um sort of longitudinal or ongoing interaction with people and where we have these virtual visits and and technology as a as a core platform, we can ask ourselves what does the research show is effective and how can we make sure that everybody gets that um in a way that the traditional care setting has really been challenged by because it lacks some of the that sort of flexibility and that interaction with with software that starts with measurement. So until recently and and even still in major pockets, mental health care has been a space where no one measured outcomes. And so you had all this care getting delivered with no idea whether it was working. Um you also had sort of infinite variability where we actually have 50 years of research in mental health showing generally which things are effective and which things might not have evidence of of efficacy. But there was no structure, transparency or accountability for ensuring that care was delivered in line with what the research has shown to be effective, that outcomes were measured, and that we were giving patients and providers the tools to do that well. Um, we also had sort of care that tended to be uh not very personalized uh and and sort of cookie cutter in many ways. So if you go back to the the point around guess and check prescribing um you know generally the convention a provider would say is try this and come back in eight weeks and tell me how you're doing. Um 8 weeks is a long time in in that case if you're trying a new medication you might have side effects. It it might change the way you're sleeping. Um it might work or not work. A lot of people will stop taking their meds in that time and some people will need uh support sooner. And so, um, thinking about how do you sort of design a a a care treatment plan and a care paradigm for the right person. How do you give them support between those sessions when they might be talking to a provider that's never been available before? All of those things have to come together into a platform that's easy for the patient, easy for the provider, works within all the regulations of health care, can use the bill, you know, can bill and get paid for that care with health insurance companies. Um that means building a platform and a system that uh is extremely complicated um datadriven uh and you know focused on outcomes and and that was our northstar. We said uh we're not just going to measure our success on access or more appointments happening but on measurably better outcomes at scale um and and that's what we've built towards.

[17:34]  You've been an innovator man innovator when you talking about tella health and I think you said 2017 right? Is that what you said?

[17:40]  Yeah. Like that's that's I'm pretty sure you heard a lot of nos during that times too. Like people weren't on that.

[17:45]  No one had ever heard of trying to prescribe mental health medication online and and I think reasonably so. A lot of people were like is that safe? Can you do that?

[17:53]  And um you know fortunately my co-founder is a Stanford trained psychiatrist with at that point over 30 years of practice and we talked through it at a very detailed level and she's like yeah we can do this safely and effectively um and we can be better than the stat the status quo.

[18:07]  I love that. I love that. And now you're you're you're covering um 150 million lives now. But what was the first hell yes moment from a payer or partner that told you this model could actually work? You remember that first yes?

[18:20]  Yeah, man. I'll never forget it. So, I mean, when we when we started out, we're tiny little, you know, tele medicine company, uh, nobodyies. And and so the idea of going and getting a contract with a health insurance company seemed like trying to get to the moon. So, we started off cash pay because we knew people would were willing to pay cash for um services that they were having a hard time getting from their insurance companies. And we got a buyer right away as soon as we put up our our website. We had a purchaser uh in less than 24 hours. And so, I was like, "Okay, there's something here. People are looking for this."

[18:52]  Um, what we did though is is I had to ask myself, okay, how do we make this leap from cash pay to having enough credibility to go get a contract with one of the big health insurance companies? What we realized was that our customers did have health insurance, many of them, but they were still choosing to pay cash because they were frustrated with the the resources that were available to them with insurance. And that was one of the big problems we're setting out to solve. And so we treated a bunch of people. By the time I had um over 500 people from a single health insurance company that we had treated for at least three months, I knew we'd have some good data to show them. and I wanted to be able to go in uh to that conversation and build credibility beyond just you know sort of banging on a door and asking for a contract.

[19:33]  So what we did is we spent a bunch of time and resource analyzing that data for those 500 people and building like a 40-page report to bring back to that health insurance company to not only tell them but to show them that we were a different kind of provider. And the worry when you're a startup company in healthcare and in a lot of other other industries is that when you go to try to engage a bigger player, they'll often ask you to do a pilot, right? To do like a test project. Um, and in our space, there's sort of this pilot purgatory that people can get caught in where you're you're sort of stuck there for so long you don't get to grow and then often, you know, as a startup, you might run out of money. Um, and so my goal was to avoid pilot purgatory. So, we took this 40-page report to one of these national payers that everyone would know and said, um, here are the results of the pilot you didn't know you were doing with us. And so, I wanted to skip over that pilot phase and say like the pilot's already done and you guys didn't have to do any work. The the data is in and we did great. And, uh, we got a national contract from them uh, for that as a small company. They're like, okay, we can tell you guys are a different kind of provider. Uh, and I thought that that was was really validating that like, okay, if we if we do this differently, if we show our work instead of just telling people how we can do it, we're going to build trust and credibility and be able to solve problems together with these partners.

[20:48]  So, you pretty much were knocking on doors and no was even an option. It's like, here it is. Yeah. Yeah. Listen, all the leg work is done. Just sign the check.

[20:55]  That's right. And so, we did we did we got that first contract. We went and did it with two other large national payers. uh we started in commercial insurance and then you know we moved into Medicare and now Medicaid and exchange and we've got about 150 million covered lives today. So what that means is that you can use your insurance with with Bright Side the same way you would any other care and you can you know use your co-ay uh and get the highest quality uh mental health care at a very affordable rate.

[21:21]  I love this man. Your leadership is truly you lead with um some tenderness in in that data and in that heart. Where did you learn that balance or like is this something that just already was instilled in you through the journey? Like there's data for sure and then there's just this this heart the love that this passion that you you have for this.

[21:43]  I think it's a great question and thanks for asking that. Uh I I think it comes from a few places. If I'm reflective about it, some of it's got to come from my mom and dad, from my family, and and and you know, just some of the values that I hold dear there. But the truth is, I got to give a lot of credit to my wife. Um, you know, I I came up like a lot of us in this male culture, and this work culture that was like, be tough, don't show emotion at work, push through. um you know a leader is strong and and unwavering and unflapable and and certainly some of those ideas are are sort of deeply ingrained in me and uh and I don't uh you know inherently reject them. I think leadership does require some elements of that, but what I've learned is that it also requires authenticity, right? If if people want to be part of a team and part of a vision, um they want it to be real and they know that if they can't see

[22:42]  any challenges or emotionality or setbacks that it's just being hidden. It's not that it's not there, it's that it's being minimized and and that someone's sort of being uh less than authentic. And so my wife uh early on when we were together pushed me to start thinking about that and to start living that and it's been a a long process of trying to open up to that iteratively and I still try intentionally to do it all the time. Uh and it's hard it's hard to undo

[23:10]  all that armor that I put on when I was a kid. Uh trying to act tough and infallible and and you know be optimistic and overcome obstacles. And so I'm trying to find the balance, but um what I think it's been able to do in being sort of real and authentic that way and truly meaning it when I talk about our mission and not just having that be lip service is it's allowed me to attract just a phenomenal team of people who who truly also believe in our mission and has allowed us to to really execute well in that way. Um, and so, you know, I'm I'm still on that journey and um, but I I think it works well for me and and it works well for our company.

[23:51]  No, kudos to your wife for sure for seeing, you know, the from the outside perspective cuz as men, we don't see it, right? We're like, what are you talking about? But then when when that person so closest to you is calling it out, you of course you're going to put some thought into it and and not just thought, but you're going to put a little execution into it as well. and you doing it and seeing the the outcome right what is that return when I am being a little bit more vulnerable when I am being a little bit more open about things and as you mentioned people do business with people

[24:20]  that's right

[24:20]  so when you show up as yourself authentic self people love that and people can see that and people can see when you're being fake and uh that's why Brad having this first conversation with you like there was nothing fake about it you know and even just now you're just so humble like truly building your own empire and you're just still so humble about it like you know I'm just just doing the work man just doing the So, I love this and you play so many roles. You you're you mentioned a husband. You are a parent. You are a founder. You you're building um systems. You're you're building more than a company. What kind of world do you hope your kids inherit because of the work you're actually doing now? Add all the good questions today here. Brad,

[25:03]  you're really asking for for my deepest thoughts here. Well,

[25:08]  we're trying to see if your wife is is putting you to the test here, right? We got we're trying to see if it is actually working.

[25:13]  You know, I'm I'm trying to build a whole whole set of systems and and community around me who can help me think uh in in deep and meaningful ways about a lot of these questions. Right now, in this phase of my life and my work, I'm really focused on making sure treatment is better and more effective for for mental health needs. I think as I zoom out and ponder this question you're talking about my hope and and maybe my need in my next step is to try to get upstream of that right like um trying to reduce the incidence of people struggling with mental health and addiction problems and that's what I would want for my kids uh right to be living in a world where they feel secure and connected and resilient and um you know I think co was a real setback for young people uh trying to to sort of build some of those systems and navigate that. Some of the data, for example, on like teen suicide rates has has come down a little bit, but we're still in the midst of an alarming long-term trend there. And so, uh yeah, my hopes for my kids are that they are resilient and that they uh have the tools they need to navigate the inherent ups and downs in life. I think and my framing and my learning here has been that I don't I don't think happiness is the right framing or right goal for them because life's going to have a bunch of hard stuff that they need to manage and I want them to have contentment. I want them to be able to ride the ups and downs and navigate through it and solve problems and lean on people around them uh and be okay through that and get care and support uh when they need it. Um, and so I'm I'm hoping and trying my best to prepare them for that. And uh I'm going to keep looking around the world and seeing if there are other ways that I can help build systems and services that they and other people like them might benefit from. I'm pretty sure as your kids get older, you you'll um start to experience the gratitude of the work you put, you know, uh laid for them because I'm a big believer that kids may not listen to us, but they see the work that we're doing. And for your kids to kind of see that fight that you've always had and it wasn't it's not for you. It's not about you, right? It's not about us. It's about them. And it's about your past also changing the past but also looking into the future and making sure they as you mentioned they don't have to experience some of these things. You mentioned a couple of different things like I I allow my kids to adventure. I allow my kid to you know do things that maybe other parents don't do. So I I believe that you know your kids are a little still on the young side but as they're in high school and they're seeing dad or maybe they off in their own lives they're looking dad like man dad really changed the industry. That's what you're doing man. changing an industry that has for a very long time has not been um innovative and you did that you know you did that with team so kudos man I can't wait to see what the

[28:05]  I tell you that um healthcare is uh not an easy industry to try to innovate in uh or to build so we we chose a hard path uh and it's hard at every step um but

[28:18]  uh you know that's that's the reason that it needs to change uh and needs to get updated And I want to tell you that there are tons and tons of great people working in healthcare uh with lots and lots of good intentions uh with lots of safety mechanisms. And so um there's a great set of ingredients and inputs and a lot of people looking for uh really effective innovation. It's about bringing those things together, solving for that complexity um you know and bringing a scientific mindset to make it happen. So I'm excited about what's ahead.

[28:48]  No, I'm excited as well, man. And and one of the biggest things you've been doing is showing up, right? Every day. Hard days, easy days, you you just still got to show up. The days that you sometime may not believe in yourself, you still got to show up. What does it actually mean to you now, though? That you showed up and this is what comes from showing up when things didn't even look like this.

[29:10]  There's a lot of satisfaction in in having a vision for something and then building it and manifesting it, being able to see it. So just rewinding to, you know, the idea that I had in 2017 and the audacious goal of of trying to build a national mental health provider that delivers better care

[29:28]  um to and then to now where we've built something really amazing and really exciting that um has delivered, you know, great psychiatry, great therapy, great suicide prevention programs, now intensive outpatient programs to uh hundreds hundreds of thousands of people. Um we've published 13 papers in peer review showing our outcomes. Um you know we've got 150 million lives under contract that we support. There's a lot of satisfaction in that. It feels good. I think what I'm working on in my own journey is that

[30:01]  you know the younger me sort of uh I think wanted that satisfaction for um sort of for pride right for like building my resume or showing look I can do that. Um, I think as I'm growing into this and and at this part of the journey, it's just about feeling good as part of an expression of who I am and who I want to be and um, a little bit less about external validation. So, I think to your point like yeah, it feels good. It feels uh, in some way, you know, my wife is more of an artist. She talks about sort of creative expression. I think this is my version of creative expression uh, the way that I want to create uh, and add value and that just feels good on an intrinsic level for me. Yeah, I had to learn that uh creativity looks very different in in various ways, right? You think creative, you think artist automatically and you think artist, you think about the painter,

[30:52]  but no, we're all artists in our own world, right? You are artists, you have pieced this nice thing together and people are just excited to be a part of it, you know, to to use it. Um, as you mentioned, great leadership around you because of who you are. So, I truly appreciate that. We're going to we're going to get into this blind question here in just a bit, man. But Brad, tell them where they can find this information. I don't know if you guys are on social media, but if they wanted to connect with you, where can they find you? Where can they find um what is the website?

[31:16]  Yeah, you can find Brightside Health at at brightside.com and uh you can find me on LinkedIn if you want to reach out directly.

[31:24]  I love it. I love it. I love it. This is a great conversation, man. And and so excited to see what actually happens because you were already ahead of the curve and you're now still ahead of the curve with the whole AI implementation. So, what happens in the next five years, Brad? You about to really knock this out of the park, man. You got to be ready. Are you ready?

[31:40]  I'm ready. I'm ready. Yeah, we're ready.

[31:42]  Well, hopefully you're ready for this blind question as well, cuz the blind question that the last leader had, um, Mr. Paul, if I'm not mistaken, was the last lead that we had, and he says, "What was the moment in your life you're most most grateful for and why?"

[31:56]  I'm most grateful for.

[32:00]  And he makes sure he says, "And ask them why." So, I got to make sure the why is in there, you know.

[32:04]  Yeah. I will say, oh man, there's so many. something I I am I am really like filled with gratitude uh for so many things in in my life and and I could just go down a long list and and maybe try to skip the obvious ones but to me you know the moment I met my wife uh has to be the the biggest moment in my life because if you look at research um the biggest impact on your level of contentment and how you do in your life the biggest decision you ever make is the partner partner you choose. And um you know there's a lot of luck and there's a lot of effort and a lot of heartbreak that often goes into this for so many of us. And I feel like I was unbelievably fortunate to meet my wife and my partner and that it's just had uh an huge huge impact on my life every day and and for the rest of my life. And so

[33:06]  there's nothing I can imagine uh more impactful. obviously couldn't have more love for my parents and just being born was a pretty impactful uh moment in my life. Uh but um yeah, I think that's the one that has had the biggest impact on the way I see and experience the world.

[33:24]  Yeah. No, that was a good one. That was a good one. I mean, I'm pretty sure she's happy to hear that, but you are 100% correct. Our partners know us more than our actual parents do, right? Um they they're going to see us cry more than our parents ever probably seen us cry. They're going to see us fail more than our actual parents ever seen us fail. Cuz I don't know about you, but you know, if I fail, my mom probably doesn't know nine times out of 10 that I failed. But my wife knows. She sees it. Even though I don't tell her, she sees it in my face. You know, something's not right here. So, no, man. Shout out to all the um great women out there, especially yours, Brad, that has really been by your side and and been with you on this journey, man. To see you build something so successful. I appreciate it. What is your blind question to the next leader?

[34:02]  Oh, man. You didn't prep me for that having to ask that question, did you? Um, I would say, you know, I think it's really valuable for every leader to always be mindful of what's their next biggest growth opportunity. What's their what's their biggest gap right now that they where they need to grow? And I would say

[34:30]  that's good. Where's the biggest gap and where they need to grow? not professional. Right? So you might the first thing that might come to mind is a professional thing, but I would say what's the personal thing below that.

[34:40]  Okay. All right. All right. So this is where's that gap in their lives? Right. That's a question. And what was the other piece of it?

[34:48]  Oh, it's just the the the next big growth opportunity, the next the place where they they feel that they

[34:54]  need to grow. And

[34:56]  okay,

[34:56]  again, when we're talking about a professional context, someone might be like, "Oh, well, my financial forecasting needs to get a little bit better, but I think there's there's something below that, right? If you're if you're not doing as well as you'd like at at financial forecasting, let's say, like maybe it's actually something more like my attention to detail or the way that I um you know, am able to allocate my time to different things or, you know, there's always something a little bit lower." And so I think the real question that that matters is digging down into that sort of personal level of growth that shows up in in professional ways.

[35:32]  Okay, I like that. I like that. It's another great thinking question, especially when you said more on the personal side because it does separate everything that we can potentially say about either our healthc care organization or a nonprofit. That's easy. You want to get more into deaf. I love it, man. Well, Brad, I really thank you. for such a great conversation. Um, I'm so happy that so many people experienced the pandemic. Well, we all experienced a pandemic, but some experienced some some bad times during the pandemic. And and for you, there was a lot of success. And I wish you so much more success. And I'm so happy that you're in a space where people are having conversations that we were not having years ago. And especially for our youth, you mentioned the youth. Like I think there's the sweet spot there as well that as you mentioned back in our days, well I say our days, I even over the same age, but I as growing up, we didn't talk about mental health. We weren't talking about the problems that were happening at home. But there were so many problems happening at home. And I didn't realize that until I actually graduated and realized, man, we all have a story. We all are having to overcome something. So for you to be in the space mental health for our young adults, I believe that you're already ahead of the game. again, you're you're helping the next generation of leaders see themselves. Um, allow them to feel heard as well and and to share their their feelings, but also find great help that allows them to live the life that we both um are most grateful for, right? Every day we as leaders get to show up and pour into others. Um, and I think it's pretty cool that we get to do that. So, um, thank you again for the conversation, guys. If you want to if you guys want to just make a difference, it's truly just sharing the information. like this information is for everyone. And if you feel like it touched you or if you feel like you're you have someone that's kind of experiencing some of these issues that we talked about here today, make sure that you guys go ahead and check out Brad and the website and really figure out how we can get assistance because you don't have to deal with it alone. So, if you are still here, make sure you guys do share, like, and comment. That's the only way we get to have these conversations in the eyes of the right people. With that being said, my name is Ephrain. This is Brad. We'll catch you on the next one. Lers.