Why Higher Ed Needs to Reframe Its Marketing — Focus on Connection, Not Just Conversion

[0:16]  Welcome back to another episode here with the Heart Hustle Podcast. We've got Mr. Matthew. Mr. Matthew, where are we visiting virtually at today?

[0:21]  We're at the University of South Alabama and that's in Mobile, Alabama. Depending on traffic, 30 minutes from the beautiful Gulf Coast.

[0:31]  Born and raised there or?

[0:33]  No, actually raised about 90 miles over in the state next door in Mississippi. These are my old stomping grounds though, oddly enough things come full circle. started my career as a road runner and was a recruiter for an institution out of state and used to spend a lot of time here in Mobile recruiting high school students. And so to spend a career having gone to four different states and a handful of other institutions and being back here is a bit surreal. You know, it's like, oh, I remember that back when I was 24. I used to, you know, recruit at that high school or do this session or that college fair. And now I'm at a place where I'm working with my colleagues to do the same only for different universities. So yeah, it's pretty cool.

[0:56]  Yeah. We'll brought you back to the stomping grounds.

[1:19]  Yeah, that's a good question. I will say that my family and I, my wife, she's a great sport. We tend to be a bit nomadic just by nature. We enjoy seeing different parts of the country and that's what we've done. So she and I both grew up next door in Mississippi. My dad is a now twice retired university faculty member and so we ended up in the south from the Midwest. All my family are corn huskers, full disclosure. He was a faculty member, somewhere along the way, he made his way down to Mississippi, and that's where I grew up, and that's where I met my wife, and we both went to school at the same institution, and all that sort of thing. I mean, decisions, Ephraim, that are as serious as, the next upward opportunity in my professional career and good schools for my kids, et cetera, cetera, to... hey, that looks like a cool place because it's in the middle of the mountains and we like hiking and camping, right? And everything in between has been part of that decision process. it's all been a great experience. And when we can, and this location is no different than along the Gulf Coast, the marriage of professional opportunities with some outdoor opportunities in a beautiful place is even better.

[2:35]  funny you say that I'm actually talking to my wife now and I'm like I'm in Orlando Florida we don't have any mountains no hills and I'm like you know every time I go somewhere we're mountains I'm like we gotta go look elsewhere to live like I need to get out of this I need to see something different and being in a space where we could move around man I would actually ask you you said you different locations is this still the best or did you have a one that was better or one that you're wanting to go to

[2:49]  I don't know. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. my gosh, Efrain, you can't put me in that position. No, I mean, you know, I really don't, at the risk of sounding cliche on this, they've all been so different, right? I mean, I can say that having had a career at now five different institutions, two of them being smaller private liberal arts colleges, I can say as an example, that was a really cool educational experience.

[3:04]  Your wife is listening by the way Matthew, your wife is listening.

[3:24]  but I'm from a public regional sort of mid-sized university and that's kind of still where my heart is. And so for that reason, you know, I have loved being at the mid-sized, you know, public regionals that, you know, that I've been at. just, you know, I don't know, I just sort of think that that's my, you know, my thing. And then, you know, the rest of my thing has been anywhere where our family can have an opportunity to...

[3:35]  Mm-hmm.

[3:47]  to thrive in the outdoors and do some things. So we just came back from the beautiful, you know, Gulf area just this past weekend where of course I developed a cold, but that's a story for another day. But you know, just a couple hours away, my daughter was there with one of her best friends from Colorado who, you know, doesn't even know what anything above 40 % humidity even is, let alone % humidity. So you know, they're running around the beach and doing their thing and... and my wife and I are hanging out and doing our thing and then, you know, who knows, maybe years from now the mountain thing will be calling again, but I mean truly any opportunity that is the best mix of the professional with the opportunity to engage in sort of outdoor and culture. I love, I mean the, you know, probably the most favorite thing for me has been just experiencing the different cultures and so if you move from... South Mississippi to Western Carolina, you and you're in the sort of the Blue Ridge areas out to Colorado Springs where we were for 11 years and then back to Mobile, Alabama that Mobile's older than the state. You know, there are oak trees here that are older than, you know, than the state of Alabama and I've seen their share of wars the whole night. The cultural piece of it has really been cool for me. So all of them have brought a little something like that. How's that for skirting that?

[4:27]  Mm-hmm. Yeah. I love it. love it. And listen, the questions continue because now I got a question. You mentioned kids. How many kids?

[5:07]  that's what we want. I've two kids. got a junior here at South Alabama. And I've got a, I used to say a junior in high school, but I have a now senior as of about two weeks ago, and now senior in high school who will be starting her college search process. Well, actually already started. We've been doing the college tour thing and yeah. So seeing it from a career standpoint, seeing it from a dad standpoint, whenever that was four years ago or so when my son graduated and now. rinse and repeat and going back through it with my daughter.

[5:47]  I won't put a pin on that because I think it's really cool to talk about that experience from the father's perspective, but also kind of want to go backwards on kids. Kids teach us some of the most interesting things in our life that allows us to be a better leader, a better father, just a better human being. What are the kids teaching you, man? Now that they're much older, you've gone through it. I got a two and a five, so you got to give me a little bit of wisdom I'm unprepared for.

[6:08]  Yeah. Well, I mean, the fact that you're even asking about it, I think is step number one. I mean, I just don't come from a culture or a family of, you know, that is anything other than we sit down and mix it up and we talk it out and we work it up. And if you're feeling a certain way, then tell me why you're feeling that certain way. And I can offer back my perspective as a parent and I can tell you if I think you're going this direction that way or the other, but... the number of times to your point, Efrain, that I have thought, we're not letting him do that. And then he did the thing and it worked. And I'll give you a prime example. I mean, I was a part of a Greek organization in college, but I really didn't care whether either one of my college kids did that, my son or in the future my daughter. And so my son decided on his own that he wanted to do that as well. So he got involved and he decided. after one year, know, after freshman year, he wanted to live in the fraternity housing. And I just thought even as a former president, that's a bad idea. You I think that you got to give it a little time and that sort of thing. And he said, well, here's what I plan to do and this and that and the other and all this and from the studies and the work groups and everybody's around and all the things. So I said, all right, well, we'll give it a chance. But you know, the financial ownership of this will become more and more yours if that side of responsibility isn't there. And he just. Absolutely did what he said he was going to do. It worked out in a way that surpassed my expectations. And now he's doing some things that were as a result of that experience and as a result of being in that living community that he wouldn't be doing without it. And so I think that's an example, that learning part of it. I tell you, mean, as a parent, and you know this, even though your kiddos are still littles to some extent, Efrain, we all think our kids are the best.

[6:10]  Yeah.

[7:56]  And so you and I should mix it up one time because mine are the best. But my daughter teaches me routinely about the payoff of just flat out nose to the ground hard work. She is just an innately hard worker. we are blessed in that she's one of those kids that occasionally we have to go, you know, it'll be OK if you just give it a breather. You'll be fine on this.

[8:09]  Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

[8:22]  in her work ethic, so my son's ability to be a risk taker and see things through when I couldn't, and my daughter's ability to just be a grind it out type of person teach me every day to recognize that fact. I just wish I had their energy again, you know?

[8:43]  I mean, Matthew, I always look at when someone says the work ethic or you mentioned just to go get it mentality, right? The never give up. I can imagine it's a Matthew thing. It's a mom thing, right? Like you guys, without even knowing you guys have been that led by example per se. And I can only imagine they just following in the footsteps, Matthew. Just a little bit better than what you and mom probably did.

[9:06]  You know, isn't that it? I mean, this notion that you want to see your kids thrive in a way that maybe you didn't, and maybe you look back and say, that right there, that is what makes me proud, you know? So I appreciate your compliment, and I'd like to believe we had something to do with it, but sometimes you're blessed with great kids. And the reality of it is, anyone who knows me and my wife know exactly where all that came from.

[9:06]  Thanks

[9:34]  And it's from her side for sure.

[9:40]  Yeah, not love it. I'm actually in a situation now, believe it or not, that my wife's been a stay-at-home mom for the last five years. She decided to homeschool, you know, our kids. And it was so funny because my daughter is now reading, right? And I'm like, baby, that's so happy. And my mom's, mean, my wife's in the background like...

[9:46]  That's right. That's right.

[9:53]  Like you got to give me credit. did that. And now I got to remember like, you know, you are right. You put in the hard work, the sacrificing, you know, shout outs to those women, man, that a lot of times don't get under go their whole lives just kind of unrecognized and the work and the sacrifice that they actually put forward to their kids.

[10:10]  tomorrow. So glad you brought that up. mean, so glad you brought that up. mean, I, you she says she will say, you know, and I've got a pull yourself up by the bootstraps mentality of a wife at home. mean, she's, she's the definition of strengths and in more ways than I can count. But, you know, she, she will say from time to time, well, you're the one, you know, going into work. And I'll look at her and say, you couldn't pay me enough to do all the things that, that you did. Now she's got a bachelor's degree in clinical lab sciences and a master's degree to boot. And she works in a, in a lab setting and still does all that from a part time standpoint because we were fortunate enough for her to be able to go part time and spend time with the kids. And were it not for that other time she spends with the kids that's really managing the domestic side of the house, man, I mean, you know it's a partnership. And I just can't, I couldn't give her enough shout outs even if you gave me the whole 30 minutes to do it.

[10:41]  Yeah. Yep. 100%. Okay Matthew, this is, I'm just here selfishly asking you questions man, learning from you. What, how long have you been married?

[11:12]  So I should have been able to answer that just right off the bat, but we just had our 25th last year. So yeah, we're moving up on to 26 this coming up December. Yeah.

[11:22]  Okay. Love it. And the reason you can't remember is because you guys spent so long together, love one another, that who's counting, right? So what?

[11:30]  Well, and we do this thing, a friend, where we just throw the four and a half years of courting and dating and all that while we were both in graduate school. We just kind of throw that in the mix. So my inclination is always just to go, 30. But yeah, I forget like four and a half of that or so was like where we weren't really truly married.

[11:48]  Nah, that's funny. That's me and my wife all the time. I I don't even count the time that we were just talking. I count the time that I actually physically asked her out because we were just talking. But when I asked her out, that was the real date. To her is when we started talking. no, the reason I ask you, man, is always even for men that are listening, what is the secret sauce, man, for a long, know, lasting relationship? You guys started this very young. You guys became parents, had careers.

[11:59]  Mm-mm.

[12:11]  but still stuck it out, man. I can imagine there was just some difficult times, some challenges. What's the secret sauce?

[12:16]  Yeah, man, you know what I think, and I appreciate you even asking, Ephraim, but I think I'm probably more qualified to be on a podcast of smartness than I am answering this question. I mean, for me, I'll answer it this way. I'll tell you what I talk myself into all the time is get over yourself.

[12:17]  Hahaha!

[12:39]  Like this is about a mutual walk forward for me. And sure, we're all gonna contribute to the conversation and to the decisions and all that, but I just don't come from a mindset where I think mine is the way. And for anybody else out there that's got different cultural backgrounds and upbringings and things and all that, I'm not even addressing that. I'm just talking about the personal relationship with me. I just think you gotta know that you're what I hope is your, not just your best friend, but your biggest supporter and the person that knows you better than your parents do. Like that person to me. to me demands all my effort and my ability to say that, you know, this isn't a me decision, this isn't us decision type of thing. That sounds corny and cliche and all that, but for me, just think you gotta get over yourself at, you know,

[12:39]  Not all does it, Matthew. I've had to even learn how to respond and say that instead of saying you, I say we, even though I really mean her, because I realized that, you know, we got to do this together. That's even why I say we, I'm willing to be wrong with you to, to let you know that I'm in this with you. You know what mean? However, we got to, you know, so now I love that. I'm actually eight years in man, eight years married, I think 13 years together. So, I got a long race to go Matthew, but I appreciate that insight right there.

[12:39]  Yeah. Yeah. you You know how it goes, keep the main thing the main thing. I think about just keep the relationship the relationship. There's so much other noise out there to your point earlier, like where are you going to live? Where are your kids going to go to school? What's your job? Professional development or upward mobility or not? What's all that like? Well, all that is sort of part of the deal, right? have a, I love a guy who says it's all part of it. And I got to get that tattoo one time. It's all part of it.

[12:39]  Hahaha

[14:34]  the good, the bad, the ugly, all of it. It's all part of it, but let the relationship be the relationship. And the other stuff, the other stuff kind of be the other stuff, right? That kind of accompanies you along the way. I mean, it's like I think about higher ed and I don't mean to switch gears into this, but I think about that. My team and I talk all the time about end in mind stuff, right? And I just get, I get so, as you can probably tell, I get really, really interested and involved and engaged.

[20:17]  Yeah. Yeah.

[20:17]  about conversations about what do you do, right? So when I think about what do you do in a relationship, the relationship is the what do you do, you know what I mean? Like your day in, day out, being present, doing the thing is the what do you do. In higher ed, for me, I think about our end in mind, and this has been a part of my last two institutions mission statements, has to do with helping people create better lives for themselves, their families, and their communities. It doesn't talk about enrollment numbers. It doesn't talk about budget discounts.

[20:17]  Yeah.

[22:20]  rates, it doesn't talk about funding models, nothing. At the end of the day, that's all the stuff behind the stuff, right? But the real stuff is helping people create better lives. And I think about that from a relationship standpoint as well. So for me, anything that sounds like, smells like, and in mind approach to anything, I'm all for,

[24:23]  Yep. I love it. And because we did bring it back to higher ed, we put a pin on something earlier and it was just more of the involvement from a parent perspective. I think we're in a space now where more parents are involved in the decision making of a child's, you know, choice of university or college. Do you feel it's a good thing? It's a bad thing? How are we how are we kind of evolving with something like that?

[26:26]  Well, you know, I think us in higher education, as higher ed professionals, as it were, you can like it or not, but it's here. And so you better embrace it, right? And so, and you know, yes, we talk often about, you know, educating, you know, folks who come to us in a way where they can critically think and they can make decisions on their own and they can make their way in the world and impact others and all the things, right? But they come with a life full of other stuff. And they come with baggage. And I know baggage sometimes seems like a negative. It's not. It's who you are, right? You're bringing the stuff. And so bringing the stuff oftentimes means you're bringing the parents. Even though for some of us, it seems like the parents are bringing you. You're bringing all that with you. And that's a part of your past. And that's a part of your present. And we in higher education need to make sure that we understand that sure, there are lines that you've

[26:26]  Mm-hmm.

[26:26]  that you don't cross professionally with, some of which are federal from FERPA and all the rest, all that. You know, but these are individuals who are made up of everything they are coming from, and that is often their loved ones, their parents, their grandparents, their aunts, whoever is supporting them through this journey. So you need to, number one. So it's a strategically smart thing to do from an enrollment standpoint. Number two, all the data out there that you'll ever see has said and continues to see, even in this age where students or prospective students are ruling in or ruling out institutions based on the ease of the A. sort of chat bot, know, or the chat message that they got back, you know, all of that sort of stuff. That's all true, but parents are still the single biggest influencers, or loved ones that are most close to the students who making these decisions are still the single biggest influencers. And so it makes strategic sort of business sense, if you will, you know, also. And I'm in an interesting place because I'm in a place where I'm doing both the pushing out of the information, the updates and using the platforms to do all that and I'm also a consumer of it because I'm getting you know half a dozen emails a week if not more from different higher education institutions because of my daughter's you know outreach interest or they're buying her test scores or whatever you know whatever the thing is so I'm seeing it from both ways. So I don't know, I would encourage all of us out there and I have to talk myself through it sometimes too and you know I'm always preaching to myself as much as I am anybody else.

[26:27]  Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah.

[26:27]  is can we think about it more of when you embrace the parents, you're embracing the student. You're embracing their circumstance, their situation, and we don't get to have it both ways. We don't get to say you enroll as a student and parents, no, none of you, right? We gotta help sort of nurture that student along the way so that they can make their way for themselves, of course, but parents are doing that too. They might do it differently than we do it, but they're doing it.

[26:28]  Yeah.

[26:28]  So I think we need to change the conversation a little bit and just know that when we're inviting those students in, we're inviting their families in.

[26:28]  Yeah, I wouldn't see why not. Ideally, especially an investment a child makes, whether a small investment or large investment, it's being comfortable to even have that conversation with your parents. think for a long time, there was, I leave sometimes a state and don't tell my mom anything. And then there's friends that I have that says, I tell my mom anytime. And I'm like, but it just shows the difference, right, that we are. But I'm like, you know what? That would be a good thing to probably tell my mom. But it's also just how life has kind of. was given to me in that sense of direction. But I think that now even myself, I look at my own kids and I'm like, I would want my kids to communicate that with me, right? Not because I want to be controlling, but I just would love to be a part of that journey, whatever that may look like, their failures and their successes. Don't just come to me with only successes and good things. I want to be a part of it all. So it is why not have the parents involved?

[26:28]  Yeah, for sure. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Right, right, Yeah, yeah, I think so. think so. you know, higher education to a certain degree has brought this. And I want to be... I want to be careful about how I frame this. Higher ed has brought some of this on itself, right? Higher education is expensive. Now in some cases, you know, we in the higher profession would say, yeah, but state funding is down or federal this or that or the other, Understood, understood all of it. But at the end of the day, no one in a family is looking at the University of South Alabama and going, well, you know, state appropriations are X, Y, and Z. So that's actually a pretty good deal. No, they're looking at the cost. They want to know how you can help and parents are to be involved in that one way or the other, right? Even if it is a conversation with a parent with a parent saying this is their this is on them and this is their investment and I'm just here to know sort of how to support them along the way from that to the parent and there are some who you know, we're to take care of the whole thing for their for their kids. I think the trick is in higher ed. We're bringing those folks in almost as if they're one, you know, as this is one group coming from one circumstance.

[26:28]  Yeah.

[26:28]  and we all know that's not true, right? They're coming from different financial backgrounds and so they're coming from different experiences and so they're coming from different cultures and the whole like, and if you don't invite the other stuff in with them, good luck. Good luck attracting them from a business model standpoint and good luck keeping them after that.

[26:28]  I'm gonna put you in the hot seat again Matthew, a really good question. Okay, you ready for this one? So I want you to take off the, you know, career hat, what you do from nine to five, probably from way longer hours. But from the father perspective of helping your daughter navigate through some of these choices of colleges, what are you seeing that could be better from other colleges that maybe you guys are doing or could be doing?

[26:28]  Let's do it. Well, So thanks for the question. It's not the hot seat at all. mean, my position as a professional in enrollment services does not negate my responsibilities as a parent. anything, think I'm more acutely aware of the challenges that are out there for other folks who don't have this. I bring this story back up, and I'll answer you a little bit more directly here in a second, Efrain, but we went to my first college, my daughter's first college fair. Late in her sophomore year, early in her junior year, I forget which. And so she goes to the school where the little consortium of schools are all having their thing. And we are literally parking the car and walking into the Career Center Library thing where it's hosted and she says, so dad, now keep in mind, I've been doing this going on 30, this is 33 years now. So ever since they've ever known me, this is what I've done. And we're walking across the parking lot and she says, so dad. So like what do I do in here?

[26:28]  Thank

[26:28]  I mean, and that sounds like a like, well, why is that impactful? Well, because, you know, I'm a guy who has spent his life in this and my kids have heard nothing other than, you know, who my favorite favorite college sports teams are in higher ed. Like that, you know, that's that's that's what they hear at home. And she said, what do I do in here? And so that really struck me because I'm like, my goodness, you know, so so, you know, we have all of these all of these boxes checked in my household that so many families don't have.

[26:28]  Yeah.

[27:40]  checked in their household, multi-generational or whether it's income or whether it's proximity to school or whatever the thing is, right? We're checking a lot of those boxes that other families don't check. And so that just that keeps me on track, I think, when I talk with other families and I think as we were touring some schools in the middle of the year during her junior year, everybody at South Alabama says, now when is she touring South? I'm like, she'll be here, but it's the one down the street, she'll be here pretty soon, she'll take her tours, but we're doing the distant stuff first. And so one of the things that we started off by saying to her, and largely the conversation I suppose was mine with her was, this isn't about trying to rule a school in or out at this point. This is about getting the feel of what a place is like and getting the feel about what it's like to even be on a campus and get a tour. What it's like to get a tour and go, I'd like to know more about that thing. you referenced. Let's go back and talk about that. What it's like to walk around. In one case, my daughter left the institution and said, just didn't feel right. And I wanted to cheer, Ephraim, because that's what I've been folks, even when I was a pretender advisor to parents, because I didn't have my own college-age kids. I've been saying, this is about one thing. How did it feel? Now, I get it. It's not about one thing, Matthew. There's finances and there's travel and there's... I understood.

[28:52]  Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

[30:05]  At the end of the day this choice is about how to feel right and so she said one of them just said didn't feel right and And she's a junior and I'm like, okay cool Why didn't it and she gave me some reasons that let's just say they weren't driven in data, right? It wasn't about any of that and just didn't feel good. Okay, Go to another institution where maybe we can afford it. Maybe we can't But that's not what this is about right and so she's walking around free to explore on her

[30:20]  Mm-hmm.

[30:36]  own, how does this institution feel even though it may be unaffordable ultimately, right? So we talk a lot about how you have a connection to a place. And why do I bring that up? Because I think it's really important for parents to understand that this isn't just about where is the best economics program, or this isn't just about where's the best cost. Those are important. Like, do not misunderstand me. Those are important. But this is about your students connection to a place and we tell, our president will tell people on this campus, if that's South Alabama, that's fantastic. If it's not, you won't have a bigger cheering crowd than us hoping you find your place that's not called South Alabama. And I think really thinking about that and really thinking about what is that fit, what's that connection. A lot of researchers out there simply throw it in the bucket called belonging. I say simply, but it's complex,

[30:51]  Yeah. Mm-hmm.

[31:07]  And that all matters. You I saw stuff coming out of COVID and I imagine it's probably even potentially even truer now than then. That said, right behind academic preparedness, belonging was the single biggest factor of success for us student transition from high school to college. And so, yeah, make the cut scores, the ACT, hooray, let's all get that out of the way. And now you belong, you feel like you belong because ultimately that's what's going to matter. And if it's your institution, great.

[31:23]  Yeah, man.

[31:40]  If it's not, you gotta keep looking.

[31:57]  Yeah, yeah, I think we're definitely in a different times the way that we, I mean myself, the way that I intake information, the way I look for information, the way we expect things to be curated around us. mentioned data, like data now I think means more now than it actually meant probably even years ago, because when we're talking about these students is how do we really meet them at where they're at? Whether it's a family situation, whether it's a finance situation, whether it's maybe they're just uncomfortable asking questions, how do they get these answers? Because like myself, remember, and I still don't even know what the process even was. It was so long ago. It wasn't that long ago, but I guess I just don't remember it. But I remember, what I do remember...

[32:14]  You're not 56 yet, Efrain So, you know, you're not 56 yet. So it hasn't been that long.

[32:31]  Listen, I got kids though, I got kids, you already know what that looks like. But I remember the financial aid, my mom not helping me because she didn't want to give me this information. And maybe also because she did not know how to fill it out as well. And I kind of just didn't, I never filled out financial aid because I never had the help, the guidance. So the way that I went to school was I started paying out my own pocket. I worked and I started to, you know, kind of pay one class at a time. And God bless me. And I was able to undercover boss opportunity to pay for my school. So maybe I had a different, you know, experience than somebody else that had to go through that experience. But I always think about somebody even like myself that haven't graduated college. I got two classes left, Matthew. I know. Don't don't judge me, Matthew. I got two classes left for an associate. But I've done good for myself. But I always ask if I wanted to go back as an undergrad, where do I ask the questions? Right. Who do I text? Who do I message? And I think just We're in a different time of how we get those word out there. Have you looked into that on how we navigate conversations and communications now in a different generation?

[32:48]  Yeah, mean, mean, you know, first of all, one day if it works out for you. knock out those other two classes, you got the degree, it's yours for life. That's what I love about a college degree at any level, certificate, associate's degree, bachelor's, whatever. That's the thing that nobody ever, ever, ever can take away from the greater you, not just speaking right to you, Ephraim, but I think about that all the time. So many things can be taken from you. If the economy's up, down, sideways, your company's shrinking, it's growing, it's whatever, Relationships, all of that, not a college degree. It's there, man. It's there forever and so I really think that's it. You know, so so so, you know worthwhile so you just brought up something interesting that I would add to if rain that While it's really new this age of AI While I spend now the majority of my time as soon as I open up a document or a spreadsheet or a data sheet of any kind I'm working with Gemini immediately and you know, my friend Jim and I are working through some data and I'm doing all that

[33:05]  Love it. Yeah.

[33:22]  all the time, I would suggest that this sort of, at the end of the day, it's sort of a marketing arms race. Whether you call it infusing the latest AI bot in your services, or whether you go back 25 or 30 years on the onslaught of like, you were getting 50 view books, you know, a year from 50 different institutions. The switch from what I think of as, really, let's have the conversation. Let's have the conversation about the institution. The movement from that to the slickest, most efficient, most effective marketing process is, I would be lying if I didn't say worrisome and has always troubled me a little bit. But here's the flip side of that. You got to be in that game for people to be able to recognize you at least at some level and begin that conversation with you. And so we, like everybody else, are in that game. But I will tell you, until we get down to the conversation about what kind of place this is and whether or not you fit and you belong here, which by the way, I draw distinctions between belonging and fit. Fit to me always seems like something you are trying to do. Belonging is, yeah, bring all your stuff, man. Just bring it and all that.

[33:39]  Yeah. Yeah.

[33:43]  works here, right? So whether or not you feel a place is belong, I want to have that belonging conversations. It sounds great and this is great podcast material and all of that. I get it the way it sounds. But at the end of the day, as a family and as higher professionals, I think it's even more important now that we look for opportunities to have that conversation. And if that starts with a bot, okay, fine. But I want it to end with a person and a visit in a campus, an opportunity for you to walk around campus and go, feels right, you know. And for some students, by the way, and families, that's not what they're looking for. What they literally need for their circumstances or for their desires is the quickest way from A to Z and a certificate will serve that purpose and not only will certificates serve the purpose, an online version of that certificate will serve the purpose. Fantastic. Do the thing. But let's have the conversation with higher ed professionals and families about what path might be best. for you. So you're right, Ephraim, it gets so convoluted. mean, you know, the channels, right, that students can go to to get all sorts of information is pretty insane at this, you know, at this point in time. I have been, a little bit sort of re-energized about watching my own kids navigate this and go, oh, they aren't just reading the thing and calling it good and moving on, right?

[33:48]  Mm-hmm. Yeah.

[33:53]  They're smart, bright, multitasking folks who do things differently than we did. So you gotta cut through that some kind of way and it's challenging.

[33:58]  Matthew, I've had such a good conversation with you, man. And I want to respect your time as well. But I ask you, there are leaders that are probably listening, really, I would say, excited for what's next, because how can you not when Matthew just speaks nothing but just excitement and dropping gems for this whole conversation. But there's people that are also a little nervous, right? What's happening at the government level? People are asking themselves why or should I or maybe thinking about going elsewhere? What are you saying to those people? You've been in this industry for a very long time.

[34:03]  Yeah, a long time. First of all, I get it. I completely understand it and for any of us in higher ed to stick our heads in the sand and pretend like, this thing will pass, it'll be okay. Higher ed will emerge from this in some way that probably doesn't look like it did 10 years ago. I think we're already seeing that, right? But at the end of the day, for me, and I can only speak personally because I would never try and impart my views and say, hey, it works for me, it will work for you. But here's the way I think about it. And I think that in any of our jobs, whether it's you in your line of work,

[34:08]  Mm-hmm.

[34:13]  whether it is you know a tech person in the tech sector or a professional athlete or I mean gosh you name it right if you can keep score that's a tough place to be right anytime you're in a profession where there can be you know most clicks right most red most subscriptions most wins most losses biggest income stock share in Korea whatever the thing is and for us in enrollment in higher ed we're in that and I will tell you this I'm so glad that you enabled me to

[34:13]  Mm-hmm.

[34:14]  to pound the bench a little bit on this, is that I don't know anybody in my position. I certainly didn't. Get into this to, my staff, if they were here right now, they'd say, we get it, you didn't get into this, fuel the budget. Because I say that all the time. Budgets and things like that are all tools toward this greater good that we call higher education. So my end in mind, my own personal why, if you will, my end in mind approach is to help people create better lives for themselves.

[34:15]  Yeah.

[35:12]  You forget whatever your end in mind approach is and you get caught up in, well this week numbers are up and they're down and they're this week and they're that week. I mean, to watch numbers and let them influence your mental stability on a weekly basis is challenging. And if you think about it, there's nothing different about who you are as a person, who I am as an administrator now, before I got that report, then after I got that report. But yet, somehow I'll look at the thing and go, I needed an up week and we had a down... Really? That week doesn't make that end in mind goal, right? It's not... That's functional sort of noise along the way. And if you obsess just over the functional noise along the way, you'll bolt out of this career and I suspect many others quickly. And you've got to think about that end in mind approach. And for me, that's been my North Star. That's my kind of steadying thing. And yeah, I think that's my biggest piece.

[35:14]  Yeah.

[36:12]  of advice is it's got to be something more or something bigger than how did things go today or even this semester. You know what I mean?

[36:24]  Yeah. Matthew, with that being said, man, you kind of dropped the mic right then and there. But I also want you to kind of shed some light. Are you guys on social? How can someone connect with you via LinkedIn? You have an email. What's the website to the college?

[36:32]  Yeah, certainly folks can find me on me personally on LinkedIn happy to share I you know You will not catch me in a position where I'm not wanting to talk about higher ed and and that sort of thing So I'm always happy to happy to do it You can you can contact the University of South Alabama at South Alabama dot edu you can contact me at mcox eight eight nine three Excuse me. You can contact me at mcox eight eight nine three at gmail. That's my personal gmail if you'd like fine with that as well. So yeah, LinkedIn, Gmail, campus, find me, happy to chat, love to do it. The toughest part is just squeezing me into 30 minutes because I usually won't run over.

[36:40]  I mean, we have 40, so it was a tough squeeze for sure. But now I can imagine we can go longer. But I really appreciate your insight. We could probably do part two at some point, especially as you kind of get more involved into your daughters, the AI. There's so much to really talk about probably in the next session. But for those that are listening, these are the type of conversation that we're having with leaders that may be in your sector and realizing that you're not alone in this as well. So make sure you guys do like, subscribe and comment. We'll continue to have more of these conversations. I'm Efrain. This is Matthew. I will catch you on the next one. Laters.

[36:49]  Happy to do it.