CEO Frank Bruno: "I Took One Ride and Left My Corporate Career Behind" | Via Mobility

[0:16]  Welcome back to another episode here on the Heart and Hustle podcast. Our next guest says he didn't plan to run a transportation nonprofit. He just took a ride, one ride, and thought, "Wait a minute, this is how essential services should actually feel." So Frank, I appreciate you joining in and man, you worked every seat at the table, public, private, nonprofit. What kept you pulling forward, man? When in reality, it could have been an easy just, you know what, I'm going to hang up my boots and and maybe retire.

[0:42]  No, that's a good question. I don't feel like I the more I think about it, the more I feel like I'll never want to retire. Um, and I know it sounds a little trit to say, well, I'm always learning. But I think that is it that I just love doing things, learning things. I love working with people. And the odd thing is I'm an introvert. So, you would think, well, you know, just hanging around at home would be great. And I love that with hanging around with the dogs, you know, with the kids. But I really do love the work we that I've I've done either as as you said as a city manager, private trash recycling company, the university. Uh there's always things to learn, things to contribute, and that's just kind of my my thing. I love it.

[1:31]  I'm with you, man. I'm I'm only 35 years old, so I may got some time. Yeah.

[1:34]  But I think to myself, will I really retire? Like I truly appreciate the getting up um finding a problem, figuring out what the solution is. And I can only imagine if someone says, "All right, Ephrain, you have to stay home. I'm going to find 10 things to do at home." All right. Like I'm still going to be very active trying to figure it out cuz I think I still have a lot of pending projects in my house cuz I just love to do things. Um it's so hot. I'm in Florida so it's super hot and sometimes I'll still go outside and mow the lawn and do this. My wife's like, "You just love to be outside." I'm like, I just don't know how to stay still. Like my mind would not even allow me to, man. Um, but we talked about you taking that ride, right? You took the ride along with VIA. What really hit you the hardest to say this is the organization that I want to actually, you know, invest my time into.

[2:21]  Yeah. Well, and as you know, just to take a step back because I was city manager here in Boulder at the time and it was a person on my the actually the library director was on the board here at at we were called Special Transit back then. and she said, "You go do the ride along. You've got to see this place." And what struck me was that I understood that this nonprofit was doing the work that a city or a county would typically be doing, doing this transit and paratransit, you know, assisted transportation for people. And it really hit me hard that wow, this nonprofit is very efficient, very effective, very caring, and they're saving me money as city manager, and I've got to I've got to check out what they're doing. How are they doing this? How are they able to do it? And it just really really hit me hard, how good it was.

[3:16]  And you weren't really chasing a title, per se. You were just trying to chaste meaning, impact. Is that correct?

[3:22]  Yeah, absolutely.

[3:24]  Why? What did you always have this giving hard? Like what made you say, you know, I'm going to the nonprofit space? So many people have this idea of a nonprofit not making money. There's no money to be made. It's hard. I mean, Frank, you you were in a space probably making great money and and could have continued up that ladder.

[3:42]  Yeah. Well, and here's the thing. I mean, you know, I'm older than you. You know, we know that. Yeah. So, I was a I was a young kid when my parents were, let's call them Kennedy Democrats, John Kennedy Democrats. And it was an era of obviously space and a lot of human right issues. And as a little kid, I just saw the energy and excitement. And again, I know a lot of complexities, a lot of negative, but I saw the positives back then and horribly after the assassination and I saw his brother Robert and I saw the passion and the energy. So I early on saw what government could do. And so that kind of explains why I got into government. Why the nonprofit sector? Well, a lot of people think that nonprofit has to mean basically the discount, the deep discount. And yeah, it can mean that. But with VIA, we are a VIA mobility services. We're a transit and paratransit provider that has to look and operate like a private business. Meaning we need contracts to be able to survive and do the paratransit. Meaning we have to be competitive. We have to be efficient. We have to pay people fairly well. So that's what I love about this place is it's not just, you know, sitting here expecting government to give us things, give us contracts. No, we've got to compete for them. We've got to earn them and win them. And I love that. So So it's Yeah, it's it's giving back. It's nonprofit, but it's nonprofit kind of on steroids. It's it's different.

[5:29]  Yeah. No, I was going to say to what you were just saying is you are looking for these contracts. you're bidding on these contracts, realizing that there's a service that need to be provided. And I think a lot of organizations don't go that route is I've seen people create a venue where now they rent out the venue. So now they going to have the consistent income with renting out a venue. So I I think it's almost like lowhanging fruit realizing there's a need, right? A a simple need and and you're doing it so well and you're training about 270 people to show up but and not just physically but present. Frank, how do you get that done? Like clearly it's not an easy 270 people. Organizations, nonprofits don't normally see that many people. How do you how are you training these people, man, to just be present?

[6:10]  Well, and we have a really robust training protocol. And let's just, you know, I mean, of our 270 employees, about 85% of them are drivers and mechanics. So, you know, it's the rubber meeting the road, so to speak, immediately and directly. And we spend weeks training them, the drivers especially, how to do the route, how to show up, um, what not to do, obviously, you know, the drug and alcohol standards. They know they're going to be randomly tested, but we also train for the routes. And we operate now in eight counties in the Denver metro area

[6:51]  all the way up to the Cheyenne border to the Wyoming border including Cheyenne. And so we spend a lot of time directly with what are they going to encounter and because we have to pay you know accordingly we have to pay decently competitively the you know it's a choice. Yep. They can choose to work for a private for-profit and earn a little bit more but we also offer a lot of flexibility with schedule. We understand you and I have got kids. A lot of people have kids. We understand that someone may need a day off to take their kid to school or something to camp and we we are cool with that. We provide that. So, it's a little bit of heart, soul, and hardcore training that uh our our employees know they're doing something of great meaning and I think they can see by the training that we're taking it very seriously and I think they appreciate that frankly. And for those that are listening, can you explain that door through door service to someone who's never needed the services?

[7:56]  Yeah. So, if you're, you know, when we say I've gotten used to saying paratransit, and not everyone knows what that means. It's assisted transportation. You know, it's maybe someone's in a wheelchair or they have a walker or at the very least they need that elbow of someone to get them from their inside their home. Help them put on their coat, get them out the door, down the steps into the bus, up on the bus, secured on the bus to the location. Let's say it's they're going to the doctor into the doctor's office. And we don't leave them until they are checked in and sitting down and waiting. and we we don't we can't stay with them throughout. That's something that we've thought about doing, but but at the very least, we're one of the very few that does door through door still. And we've surveyed, you know, our our ridership. We know that at least 80 to 85% of our riders, the paratransit riders absolutely need the door through door. What we just described, they they can't get by without that. It's very inefficient service. There's no way we're going to rush from location to location. If we do two trips per hour, that's really good. But we are committed to that and we'll use that, frankly, in our fundraising that we have that heart that soul. We had a visit oh about two months ago from a a gentleman probably only a little younger than me whose 94 year old grandma just figured out that she could ride with us. She wanted to come thank us. So the grandson and Patricia came here to say thank you. And we wow wound up sitting down having a um you know a bubbly water together and having her tell us how important it is to her to be able to do this. So you know there's so many reasons why we do this and why we love what we do. And not you know granted not everyone is in it for the same. Some people just need a job in the moment. But by and large, the people that work here understand that they understand Patricia and that we're changing her life.

[10:09]  How does that make you feel, man? I mean, is I can only imagine that just fills your cup is a reason why you do it.

[10:14]  It It does. And it is. And yet, you've got to keep your head on straight like, you know, I mean, I'm just a person. We're just people. I'm no better. I'm a I'm a sinner, you know? There's nothing better about me than anyone else. So when I say well, you know, it fills my cup. Yeah. But I don't want to get a big head about it and say, oh, we are the best thing in the Yeah. I think we're doing really important work and it's vital that someone's doing this and doing it well and doing it to that standard. And I love that. I do. And you know, we talked about retiring. I'm gonna have a hard time if if and when the day comes to say, you know, I maybe I shouldn't do this anymore. The only reason I would think about doing that is because others that are coming up need to step in and and take the reigns at some point, but then I'm going to go do something myself. I don't know if I will be a driver, but I could always volunteer, right?

[11:14]  That's it, man. Oh, I love it. And how long have you been with this organization? Uh, so I'm coming up on closing out nine years as chief executive officer, but I was on the board of directors for seven years before that, including two years as board president. So when we have our board meetings, I you know, I'm always mindful of what the board members are are thinking and feeling. And, you know, sometimes they feel like they're not doing enough. And you know, I try to assure them because I've been there. So, you know, many years now. Many years.

[11:50]  Yeah. A little bit over 15 years, man. A lot of times. And the reason I asked that is you you've seen change. You've implemented change. What are some of the things that you're most proud of in that time, 15 plus years, especially being a CEO?

[12:02]  Yeah. Well, one of the things is something that is a maybe some would say it's not a decision, but it is a decision to not change the door through door because I just got done saying it's very inefficient uh type of transportation. And yeah, we do we do shuttles, we do microtransit, we do on demand, but the paratransit work that we do that that's that founding mission, we just recommitted to that and I'm very proud of that. meaning that we're not going to say, "Oh, it's just going to be curb to curb or, you know, get you close to your home." No, we're going to still take you in and get your coat on and and bring your groceries in. I'm proud of our um sustainability commitments changing to uh battery electric vehicles and eventually hydrogen electric vehicles. I'm very proud of our second response service. What I mean by that, here in Colorado, we have wildfires um every year. Every year. And when that happens, here in this 8count region we serve, we show up. We're going to help evacuate. We don't ask for money for that. We just do it. Um and I'm really proud of that. And and it's all hands- on deck when that happens. We're all here. Uh, you know, obviously I'm not driving, but I'm going to make sure that our drivers have whatever they need to go out. If they need an a a hotel room because they're going to stay here instead of going back wherever they live, I'll get that for them. I can do There's a lot of things I can do. I'm proud of our teamwork.

[13:38]  And and let's not get it twisted. If you needed to drive, you're going to get behind the wheel and drive, right, Frank?

[13:43]  Well, there are certain things I can do. I don't have a a commercial driver's license.

[13:47]  Oh, got it. Got it. Makes sense. I got not all of our vehicles require that, but most many of them do. So, I can't do that. There's a lot of things I can do.

[13:56]  I love it.

[13:57]  Frank, man, we're in a space where innovation is key, especially in nonprofit. You guys clearly kind of ahead of the game. I think last time we talked about um just tech. We were mentioning AI and realizing that tech is not replacing people. It should actually make humanity more useful. What is your thoughts on AI? Are you guys actually kind of dipping your toe on what it may look like for VIO or is it something that you guys are already utilizing?

[14:21]  Well, yeah, I think the answer is yes. We already are are already using it. Let's look at the call center. I mean, it's much better if we can use AI to answer calls and not keep people waiting and have, you know, really positive experience for everyone. But to take it the really the extreme side, AI in the context of automated vehicles, so driverless vehicles. On the paratransit side, let me assure everyone right off the bat when we get to that point, there's still going to be a person on the bus who's going to help with that elbow or that arm.

[14:58]  Yeah.

[14:59]  Help that person in. But you know, do we get to the point where technology is so advanced that we eliminate the potential for accidents because of AI? Got to look at that. Absolutely got to look at that. But AI is also the ondemand software that we're using that people can grab their their smartphone and book a trip just like Uber andyft obviously but on the paratransit side on the m microtransit side on the municipal transit where's that bus that's going to become more and more refined because of AI and we are you know we're certainly open to it you know I see the negatives that people are concerned about and I'm not like, oh, gung-ho on everything AI. Um, but I also want to make sure that we are we're we're taking advantage of the positive things. I I think it's very interesting, Frank, you um just understanding AI, not probably to the 100% capacity, but understanding enough to realize it's a tool. It's a resource. I'm I'm And you kind of saying some of the things of the uh vehicles driving on its own. I didn't know you were going to go there, but what gets you to say AI is is a thing. It's here and I'm I'm excited about what it's actually bringing. Was it you use it utilizing it? Is it people already showing you what AI could possibly do?

[16:24]  Why are you so, you know, with it?

[16:26]  Yeah. Why am I open to it? You know, let's just say it's a form of very advanced technology. But back in the day, and I I forgive me, I don't remember when the elevator was invented.

[16:41]  Oh my god.

[16:42]  When I worked at the old Brooklyn Navyyard, I had 14 elevators. I was a young guy. I was a project manager. I had 14 old elevators that I was responsible for maintaining. And those elevators were at a time when people weren't so excited about is this thing gonna fall? Is it gonna is that cable gonna break? So, you know, bearing in mind that technology takes time, cars, airplanes, elevators, AI is just another form of technological change. And let's hope it's technological advancement. But again, there's so many elements of AI that's incorporated into so many things. You go get an MRI, there's AI is is built into that system. It absolutely is. You know, um, robotic, uh, surgery, you know, where you you have to have your appendix out. Instead of them slashing open your belly, they're going to make three holes and there's going to be a robotic arm with three little things that are going to go in and and do what they need to do to extract that appendix and cauterize and seal up. That's AI. And so,

[17:54]  um, you know, when it comes to

[17:57]  we think of the extreme. We think of a a 40 passenger bus trundling down the road without a driver. Are we going to get there? Yeah, we will get there. Is that 5 years? Is it 10? Is it 15? Is it 20? I don't know. But we're going to have different iterations of that. We're going to have Montreal where we're going to have individual cars rather than a cable system like a gondola. that's going to be AI. Uh, and you know, again, so it's it's not always the extremes. Sometimes it's in between. And you know, I'm just supportive of the the changes. I want to see us continue to refine without having, you know, think of medicines. You know, they do trials because they don't want to impact people negatively. And that's why they do medical trials, drug trials. And the same with technology, you know, we're out there with bus and uh everchanging technologies. You know, go to Arizona and you can get a a WGO, I think it's called WGO, you know, a driverless vehicle, show up at at the hotel, take you wherever you're going to go. It maybe is still little ways out in a climate like ours where we're going to have snow in September, October. Uh but it's there. It's coming. So, I just want to make sure we're open to it.

[19:22]  Hey, real quick. If you're enjoying the podcast, we first want to say thank you. And we also just want to give you a little insight of what we're up to at Francis. Some don't even realize that we're working with organizations to help them use AI to create that real human communication experiences. Whether that's actually supporting your your families, those patients, or the entire community, we're actually creating tech that connects. Check it out. Francis.ai. No, I love it. And you just mentioned, it's funny when you actually mentioned some people just think differently of it. Some people think it's the Terminator. I was talking to another leader and I was like, if no one has ever watched Terminator, go back and watch it. And it's like, wow, people really live in in the spirit and and yeah, movies probably showed us a lot ahead of time before it even shows up. Um, as you mentioned, there's good and there's bad and and it's how do we use it? But we could look at broadband internet when we used to how we used to actually get on the internet, right? And look at it now. coming within an instant you're on the internet and now with chatbt you're getting information at a drop of a dime I does it make us a little lazier people say I don't think so I think it makes me more creative I don't know about you Frank if you're using it but the ability to go and prompt a chat GPT a cloud and prompt it right and I think that's where people fail is that you don't know how to prompt it you're not utilizing it to your advantage but man I'm doing way more reading than I've ever have because I do have to read it right but I'm also seeing seeing creative ideas that I can implement as I'm seeing here running a nonprofit as well. And I think for nonprofits especially that we should start to test the waters because there's so much asset there and we're leaving it on the table. And if we want to play big in the nonprofit world, I believe we have to adapt to the change to be quite frank.

[21:04]  You're absolutely right that abs I couldn't I couldn't have said that better. And one thing though, you know, we're going to talk about AI and technology. I think it's interesting think of the movie, you know, you mentioned Terminator. think of Transformer or the Transformer series.

[21:19]  One of the things that struck me is that even though these were a machines, the um the director, the producer, the creator of the movie really made a point of trying to introduce the notion of this machine can have heart as well. You know, it can be a, you know, a caring thinking thing, taking care of these kids.

[21:38]  Yeah.

[21:39]  So, I I think that as technology continues to change, the reality is we don't want to lose our heart. We don't want to lose our soul. And the reason why we do what we do in in the nonprofit world, you know, it's all about the people we serve. And so, we got to keep that in mind as we're bringing in new tech that still all about the people.

[21:59]  It is, man. I I don't know if you use it. People say that exactly what you mentioned. There's no feeling, there's no empathy, all that. There's times I'm I'm laughing with my chatbt, right? Uh because it would just it understands me. I've I've been able to talk to it and create it. So, it has a a feeling in a sense, but I'm also seeing that um what I'm seeing more of is young individuals using it as a therapist, which is also kind of mind-blowing to me. But I've heard two people this month already say they use Chat GPT as a therapist. However, therapists and those in mental health say that it would never happen, right? And they're so against putting chat GPT in their their work. But I'm like, people already doing it. Like we I think so many times we only think about our generation but what about the next generation right we me at least a mill millennial I was in that social media phase right and and being in front of cameras you for probably remember AOL AIM days I don't know what do you remember Frank is that what you remember

[22:55]  I do I really do but I'm also old enough that I remember this is yellow but you know a pink slip coming back to my office and having five pink slips to return phone calls and and you know that's obviously a very different world now.

[23:10]  I don't know where I put it. I still have this floppy disc, man, from like elementary, and I would love to find something to put a floppy disc in and figure out what the hell is on this floppy disc. But time has changed and change is never um it's never comfortable. It's always uncomfortable. And people, we're just in a time where change is happening. And and you just had so many changes, man. You climbed a ladder. You build bridges between those sectors. Um, do you remember the boldest thing you've ever told a young leader on your team?

[23:41]  The boldest thing I've ever told a young leader. Um, it's probably not so earthshattering, but it's along the lines of don't get paralyzed by the complexity of things. Just try. Just start. It's like I remember when I was um I wanted to get a master's degree and I was working full-time again in Brooklyn at the Navyyard and I thought, you know what, I'm just going to take this one class and I just started one foot really and before you know it, you're in the middle of a program and a year passes. So that's the thing is take that take that first step. Whatever you're doing, don't be afraid of that first step because the reality is success and innovation isn't occurring in these leaps and bounds. Is it occurring in margin at the margin because people are are willing to take a step in in the right direction? And sometimes it's the wrong direction, but you got to learn. And that's the thing is don't be afraid of learning. I know there's always consequences. I've worked for organizations that are so terrified of failing that they don't produce anything. They don't move forward. You know, the fear of being wrong. And that's that's the boldest thing is don't be paralyzed by being wrong. Try.

[25:10]  I love that. And that could go not to just individuals, but even to organizations as you mentioned. So many people want to be perfect when rolling something out. And it's really like none of us are perfect, man. And and as you mentioned, how do we learn? um is by putting out is failing. Like the biggest the the most beautiful thing about life is that when you fail, there was a lesson to be learned. So many people automatically go into the sense of oh my god life has happened and go into you know a negative mindset but it's like hey it happened now what did I learn from it so I can actually do better next time. Yeah. So, you're right, man. And even organizations, stop waiting for that program, that right, you know, time to drop the program. Drop it, see what people think about it, and then tweak it as you go because if you're sitting on it, you're really also sitting on the ability to scale when you don't when you're holding back. So, I love it, man. That was actually good. Yeah, it didn't have to be too bold, but it was very, very good information there, Frank. I see the leadership coming out there, Frank.

[26:03]  Um, what is the biggest leadership lesson that you've learned? I mean, you've been doing this for a very long time, different sectors, you New York, Colorado. Do you remember that that one leadership that still you still resonate with today?

[26:15]  Oh, yes, I do. It it hurt. It hurt bad. Um, and it was again I I go back to the Navyyard a lot because that was my first real job out of college and I was a kid. Yeah, I was a kid. I had some responsibility, but we had a significant um construction lawsuit that was going on and with one of our buildings and a roof issue and we brought in this high power uh contract attorney

[26:46]  to work with us and I was assigned to be kind of like his because I was working on the project. So, I was his his guy and he took me apart. And what I mean by that is he saw that I I was yeah I was a kid but he saw that I was stuck in a pathway of kind of believing my own little narrative that oh I'm you know I'm I'm so important. He kind of took me apart and said look if you want to be a serious player as you get older you've got to do some things and you're not there. You're not there. You're not going in the right direction. I remember going home just being devastated like, "Wow, you know, I'm I'm not good enough." And he was right. I wasn't good enough. And I needed to really look inside and and say, "How am I going to actually show up and care about the work that I'm doing?" And not just do, you know, whatever I can do to get by, but do, you know, pursue, it sounds trit again, but pursue excellence. And that lesson meant I've carried that through my whole life. And I've told my kids about it. I've told people that, you know, work with me about that story when it's appropriate, you know, when the time comes up. And it's like, yeah, I I remember that. Well, I even remember he was like, don't gentlemen don't wear short sleeve shirts. And this was a a place where I was still wearing a shirt, tie, you know, and a coat. He's like, no, you don't wear you wear long sleeve shirt and you roll up the cup. You're professional. You got to show up. Something as simple as that. I know it sounds silly to young people today, but

[28:27]  it does.

[28:28]  Yeah,

[28:29]  I I it does sound silly cuz I am in a space to where I'm like, show up as yourself, right? Like be authentic. Y

[28:38]  um and really what this conversation has been is authentic. You know, Frank and Ephrain, I'm in my short sleeve. Look at me. Look at me. I'm in my short sleeve with a little button up right here, Frank. And I I just think I actually give you a story. So, I was um I was I guess it just depends the environment. So, I was at the school. I was handing out scholarships. I'm the president of the Edgewater High School Foundation. But mind you, these are all young kids. Like to them, I always feel a person in a suit and tie, dress up really nice. People tend to not address that person, right? Because they feel that person is too out of their lead. So, I was actually um I'm getting there. I'm have a long sleeve edge shirt. You know, I'm just casual in a sense. And the principal stops me. He's in a whole suit and tie. And he says he looks at me kind of like, "Hey, man. I got an extra polo shirt if you, you know, you want to wear it. And it's almost like what you were saying, right? I wasn't dressed appropriate for him.

[29:28]  And I laugh and I was like, nah, I'm comfortable and I believe that I'm actually more approachable by the kids this way. Y

[29:33]  and he kind of just looked at me like, but to me it it was it was true like so many times. I even spoke one to leader sometimes and and I say, "Man, you're not wearing a suit and tie. You're wearing a you know, a jogging suit and you know, you're into sports." He said the same thing. I just feel people approach me more if I don't have a student tie and I'm always willing to pour into others but people are scared to have a conversation. So it's kind of like it's a tricky space to be in man because I think so many people do feel that and then some people was like but that's not me. I don't feel comfortable that way. So

[30:03]  and obviously I'm not wearing it now you know any longer but in the moment his point wasn't so much about the shirt and tie jacket. It was about showing up as a professional. And you're right, in that time, in that era in New York City, yeah, shirt and tie made sense, but you know, it it's just the bigger point of showing up. Be committed to what you're doing. Don't slack, you know, show up.

[30:30]  Yeah,

[30:32]  I love it. Y

[30:33]  I love it. We could we could go, you know, keep going on with this for for some time, but I did want to talk about as we start to wrap up, man. Yep. What would the world look like if more leaders like yourself picked purpose over prestige? Um because in reality, man, like I love when I see people like yourself that could have done 10 times more than what you're doing today, but you decided that you're going for a different type of P. Not the paycheck, the prestige, the purpose.

[31:00]  Yep.

[31:00]  But what happens if we get more leaders like this? Well, and I love that question because I I think that that's the kind of message to young people, frankly, is yeah, back when I was a city manager here in Colorado, you know, I would talk to university and high school students and I'd say, you know, I know it seems like Washington DC sounds really appealing to you, but if you really want to make a difference, work at a city. Work at a local level. roll up your sleeves and get involved. You know, I I had a young guy that asked as could I volunteer and as a we I just went to his retirement party about a month ago and he achieved great things, became the city's legislative director. He started as a volunteer because he pursued that that uh that honesty and that um that commitment rather than just a paycheck and just a you know big profit. So I think that's the kind of person that you know I think the world would be would be a really different place. You know, we think of the wars that are that are being fought all and have been fought for for millennia because of, you know, chasing wealth and uh there's nothing wrong with being successful and having nice things and providing for your kids, but it's also laying the groundwork for for good and doing the right thing and not leaving people behind. And when you see someone that you know you can help doing it, you know, I I I think that as you said that there's a whole payoff associated with that and we

[32:45]  we'd be a lot better off if we were if more people were pursuing that.

[32:50]  No, I I do agree. I um

[32:54]  I think when people hear success, they automatically think money. Yep. And as you mentioned, success is that my family is doing well. I'm able to provide for myself, for my family. they were able to live a comfortable life. Um, and so many people just think, I got to be rich. Yeah.

[33:08]  And I and I always say when I hear that from young leaders as well, what does rich look like for you?

[33:13]  Cuz rich could be money, but are you looking for peace? Are you looking for purpose? You know, so I always have to kind of ask those questions. And I think uh we just forever in a day just think that successful means you got to be rich. Yeah. Right. You got to look like the celebrities. You got to look like that. And and I'll tell you so many people that are are so just rich in faith, you know, rich in happiness, and they don't have the million dollars in the account. They don't have this big retirement um you know, fund, but they're just very happy with what they do because they're chasing purpose. Yeah. Um not so much, you know, money, paychecks. So, I love what you're saying there, man.

[33:49]  And I I I want to make sure my kids know me. Um Yeah. Yeah. I mean, there was a time where I was working an awful lot and then I changed changed jobs because of I had kids.

[34:02]  Some people won't do it. I love that. I love that about you, Frank. Sometimes you got to take that risk, you know, because it is not about us, as you mentioned. It's about my family that they know who I am, that I'm present in their lives. Um I I grew up without a mom and dad. And so I I understood I understand now how important that was to me not having it. So yeah, man. Like I'm so thankful that um I get to be so close to my family.

[34:24]  Yeah.

[34:24]  But I've had to create that. It comes with sacrificing. You know, I tell you when I took the leap of faith to do it and say, you know, I'm going to the coaching. I'm going to believe in myself. Um for a whole year, I I sat in this dark tunnel and I would tell myself it's going to get better. This is part of the process. I I I can see the light, but how far do I got to go? And those are the those are the times that you really got to remember it's not about the money. It's about the purpose. It's about what you're creating for you and your family. And I would say two years later, man, I'm so thankful. If you would have asked me at that moment, I'm like, I don't know, but I'm so thankful that I had a tech, you know, that I took that on. Um, and so many so many people have the same ability, but just don't know their worth, per se, right? So, know your worth. And especially those young leaders, I think our young leaders, man, are so bright, are so motivated. They just need good people like Frank to really just let them know real like real conversation like no sugar coating

[35:19]  what it actually looks like. And I ask you, man, for this blind question as we start to wrap up,

[35:23]  you've been in rooms where policy, profit, and people actually collide. What's one moment that still haunts you or maybe a few you today?

[35:32]  That's a really good question.

[35:34]  It's a blind question. I had to go in with a good one, Frank, for the last one.

[35:38]  Yeah. Something that still haunts me. I I think it would always come down to and I can't I'm trying to remember a specific moment, but I think it's I I know it in my heart. It's if I didn't own something that I did or didn't do and tried to pass it off as well, you know, that just happened and you know I no it's anytime I look back and I wasn't happy with myself, it's cuz I didn't own own up to something. You know, it's not always about what someone does to you. Sometimes it's be a choice you made or something you didn't do that you could have done some little thing of saying yeah I did that that's my responsibility that's my fault. Um and anytime I look back and I say I wish I could have done better. I I I so often I walk my dogs and I think I'm thinking about life. I'm thinking about the past and I think I wish I could have I could go back and talk to that person again and change that conversation and changed that decision I made. Um, but it's always comes down to being a better person and and owning it. And yeah, I mean, we're all flawed and you know, sometimes if you you know, if you're not going to own it, you're not going to improve. And those are those moments. Yep.

[37:15]  I love it. Frank, and for your blind question, man, do you have a blind question for the next leaders that we have here on the Heart and Hustle.

[37:22]  Yeah. I think it's it's how what will you do to look into your heart and and and know what is it that you want to achieve rather than, as you were saying earlier, just pursuing a paycheck or profit. How are you going to look into your heart and know what you really want to do and have the courage to to to go for that?

[37:44]  I love it. And Frank, where can people find you? Are you on LinkedIn? Are you uh you know, are you on there? Some people have LinkedIn, but they're just not active as much. Are you active there? And also, what's the website? So, people can actually look more into the what you're doing and the organization.

[37:58]  Sure. Our website is uh you know, www.viacol via Colorado viaol.org and I am my my personal email is frank wunoggmail.com. That's where I'm on LinkedIn. I try to be um fairly active. I'm not I'm not as active as I as I used to be or would like to be on LinkedIn. There's just so many things that I do in the course of a day. But I I just this morning I did go to it. I saw a colleague, a young woman that I worked with, her dad back in Fort Collins 25 years ago and she was a a senior at CSU, Colorado State University. And I saw a post she had made and I I remember just this morning just thinking, there you go. There she is.

[38:47]  That's good stuff. No, that's what I love about social, man, is really to be able to catch up with somebody's life and say, "Wow, look at what they've been able to do." Especially when you as for you when you were with them at a different part of their lives, you know, and now to see them as a leader and kind of growing into their own. No, man. I I appreciate the conversation that we've had, Frank. Truly, I always love when leaders come up on here and really there's they're not hiding anything. This is who they are at all times. If you call Frank right now, this is who you get. If you know, you go into his office, this is who you get. And just knowing that you're just so excited for the work that you do. A lot of times people are ready to move on to the next. But Frank, you say, "No, there is no next." This is this is what I want to continue to do. And you knew that since you actually took on that first trip, right? That first ride along, uh, you fell in love. So that's really what purpose looks like is getting uncomfortable to go do the things that you've never even knew were a thing. You know, a lot of times if you have this feeling within you and you don't know why, go through with it. A lot of times it's actually purpose knocking and we tend to not answer. So Frank, I really appreciate you. I appreciate all the people that are watching right now, guys. Make sure that you guys do like, subscribe, and comment. This is how we continue to have more of these conversations. It doesn't cost you anything. And I'm pretty sure if you guys want to volunteer, Frank is definitely excited um to to take that call, take that email.

[40:01]  Absolutely.

[40:02]  Frank, we nice meeting you and and hanging out with you for a bit.

[40:07]  Same here, guys. My name is Era. This is Frank. This is Heart and Hustle. We'll catch you on the next one. Later. Thank you.