Could You Be More Vulnerable Online Than You Think?

[0:00]  it really is scary yeah and I'll just I have two children of my own two daughters and they're 22 and 18 and I think that that's where one of the stances that my husband and I took in raising them is that we've got to empower and educate our children in the realities we can't shy away and not have these uncomfortable conversations because even no matter how hard we try technology advances beyond what we can keep up with and as a parent myself it's outgrowing in my capacity to really understand like my kids at this age know more but I've also had very honest and hard vulnerable conversations with them from a very young age just because of the line of work that I'm in but I mean all of us need to be talking to our children about their realities of

[0:47]  what is how to identify when somebody reaches out to you and tells you hey you look pretty oh you probably don't want to respond to that if it's a stranger because what they do is they're casting a net to hundreds of women or hundreds of girls or children to see who will respond and then they'll take that category and keep fishing to get down to the two or three people that they can definitely engage and again cerse into a relationship and and and it's such it's a high it's such a high profitable industry when you have one person that can work with you um it's it's an ongoing cycle so all right guys welcome back to a brand

[1:43]  new episode of the heart and hustle podcast today is going to be an incredibly important conversation because we have not only the president but also the executive director of Refuge for women here with us today's conversation is going to be about some really important topics talking about Abby and Rosy's Journey we're going to talk about understanding trafficking vulnerabilities and prevention we're going to talk about the role of things that we've seen blow up in our society like only fans and all these other type of things we're going to also talk about the intersection of mental health and social media and so much more Abby and Rosie welcome to the show guys this is gonna be a lot of fun thanks awesome we're excited to be here thank you thank you absolutely guys so in order for us to kind of really get started um I think it's really important to talk about our journey in why this work is so important so Abby can you kind of introduce

[2:31]  yourself and talk about a little bit of your history on why this work is getting so much of your time and energy absolutely so um I've actually been with refuge for women for nine years now um but my involvement in anti-trafficking work has been going on for about 15 years and so in 2009 I found myself on a mission trip in India and I think a lot of the misconceptions that we still have is that trafficking happens outside the country and in third world countries um and that's actually how my journey got started was just serving overseas um but during that time the Lord just really started to open my eyes and show me that we had our own problem right here in our own backyard and um I've always said one of my key uh advice areas in this space is you got to find your lane and know

[3:21]  what you're comfortable with and doing and what your uh gifts and strengths are in order to sustain and so I knew that my heart was for the Long Haul love um and so I wanted to get plugged into some residential program Services um on the state side so anyway through a lot of really cool connections I got connected with Refuge swen back in 2015 and at the time our organization was just based out of Kentucky but our founder was looking at expanding its locations to become a nationwide organization and so North Texas Las Vegas and Chicago were the three locations that pioneered what it would look like for refuge for women as a whole to be a um Nationwide organization so I think it's so cool when we have

[4:10]  those experiences in life that are kind of those aha moments for you it was you know your time that you spent in India which is amazing for you Rosie you talk about your 10 plus years of time in the mental and Behavioral Health space but also you consider yourself a Justice Seeker What does that mean yeah for sure so kind of like Abby mentioned I uh I love this demographic I yeah my heart runs to them because in a lot of ways there's great overlap with the population that we serve in my own story so like you said I've been in mental health now for about 10 plus years and I've served a lot of these vulnerable populations that we'll expand on later um foster care homelessness eating disordered um and so I've been working with women who have been exploited for the last four years now and that has been interesting um and I consider myself blessed to be able to advocate

[4:57]  for them and what I mean when I say just Seeker is um there are populations that we as a society care about um on a surface level but when it requires more of us whether it's time or finances or backing um we tend to shy away and so there are these people groups that are marginalized and oppressed and so my heart runs to them because I I know what that's like in a lot of ways I am someone who grew up in poverty if someone looked at my story um some would say that I am a textbook statistic in a lot of ways but praise be to God and so when I think about people's vulnerabilities it's not only the women we serve um who are not nameless they have faces and real stories but I also think about people that I know and love and I think about little me 20 plus

[5:45]  years ago right who would easily fit a lot of these lanes and so um the reality is this is a part of my story I am a v i do belong to vulnerable populations in a couple of different sub areas and so there's a part of me that wants to to shed light um on what that looks like on a macro level and not just have it be something that we say we care about but that we put actions work and policy behind there's something really important for us to recognize and Abby you touched on this but Rosie you also hit on this perfectly there are so many vulnerabilities in populations that are in our communities this is not a problem that we're seeing on the other side of the world but this is happening here why do you guys think that this is such a misconception right in our communities where when we hear about human trafficking we hear about sex trafficking people say that's got to be southeast Asia that's got to be Europe

[6:31]  that's got to be Africa why do you think we've come to that I mean I'll start but I can honestly say one of the most commonly asked questions that we get from people is how many of the women in your program are actually citizens of the United States and the honest truth is that 100% of the women that we have served are from the United States and so I that is definitely a misconception um but traffickers prior on vulnerabilities and so they insert themselves into people's lives to fill a need um then that creates that dependency on the trafficker so if you have dysfunction in your home and somebody steps in to show you unconditional love to build it a relationship with you um they they pry

[7:18]  on that vulnerability and if you are uh in the foster care system and you move from house to house to house and you don't have stable community or friends or a group of at school to be plugged into um you look for relationship online and that is a vulnerability what are the reactions of the people who ask that question and then you say 100% of the people who we serve are US citizens what's the reaction like I mean they're always shocked literally yeah they're always shocked and I think too like just to expand on that a little bit is I think too as a society we can stereotype um what we think a a um a Survivor or a victim of trafficking looks like um but the truth of the matter is is that it affects all

[8:07]  socioeconomic status all race all gender all ethnicity everything and so we've had women come through our program that were from very prominent families and then we've also had women come through our program that have run away at very young ages because it was safer on the streets than it was at home and so the just dispelling those myths on what we think it is and what the truth trth is is is part of our advocacy work and Rosie I think it's really important for us to talk about you and I share an environment together we're both here in Las Vegas at the time of recording this so what are some of the misconceptions people even have about our hometown in southern Nevada here for sure um and this may segue into the question that you just asked a second ago but I think a lot of it is American arrogance um we would like to think we are may be

[8:53]  further along than we are we take unhoused populations and we we don't want them um noticeable from the skyline like right it's like well you can't be visible in this area because this is touristy and so I think it's very similar to that um yeah so I I think there's an arrogance attached to it we would like to think that we are further along than we are and um acknowledging these issues puts it in front of us and I think that's exactly counter to what we really want to do but here in Las Vegas um there are some things we can run from but there are other things our city is known for in a way that we can get away from we can't get away from the the notion that we are known as Sin City right if we're thinking like sex sales here addiction is prevalent here gambling right there are certain things in Vegas we are known for but when we think of the demographic that we serve

[9:41]  um it is it is everywhere in this city um and that's what we're not only are that that's what we're known for but we Champion that and so our location is vital because we are in a city where it is literally woven into the DNA of our city but I need women here to know that there are safe spaces and safe people who are willing to advocate for you and protect you and provide a Haven away from um the realities of Los Vegas Abby we've talked a little bit about the vulnerabilities right of people who are in our communities is there a misconception right that a lot of human trafficking kind of looks like the taken narrative right someone stolen off the streets and we've got somebody who's like chasing after them what do this really look like in our communities what are we facing um generally it is people are trafficked by pe um people they know

[10:30]  and I think there's two things I want to make sure to address here because um I T CL I teach a class once a week still with our residents and even today it was a discussion not only that but on the other side of that our women don't even understand that they're being traffi they feel that they are just in an unhealthy um abusive dysfunctional relationship so I think there's two components to that so um what I mean by when when when people are generally trafficked by individuals that they know is sometimes unfortunately it is um within their family and their family system and that is part of what their family has built on for Generations um it might be mom might have a drug habit and they might sell their kid to help sustain their own drug habit and that's

[11:18]  just the cold hard truth of uh some of the situations that we've heard about um but the other part is like I said these traffickers they pry on vulnerabilities and so they might Court somebody for it depends on how long it takes 4 days 6 months a year um however long it takes to insert themselves into a woman's life um they will become dependent so uh oftentimes these women feel that they're entering into a romantic partnership and that they have been dating this person for a very long time and then at a certain point in that relationship the change starts to happen and then they start to be cohered in a different direction of um you know a body is is a use a reusable commodity commodity I'll say that again for the recording purposes but a body is a reusable

[12:06]  commodity and so you really don't ever run out of a demand and so it could be highly profitable for a trafficker so however long it takes for him to groom a woman into his control he will do especially if he knows that it could have a high return um and so on the other side of that when I talk about the women that we serve um I love that we have t of awareness and salons and airports are hanging signs that say human trafficking if you feel like you've been trafficked but unfortunately women don't self-identify as that either and so as a society we still have some education and awareness to do within the trafficking space so that women can understand what's going on with them and that we can reach them better so like

[12:53]  Rosie was saying they can um realize that there's resources out there for them to get help as well I think it's really important to also talk about the current landscape of where we are in society right a lot of relationships are built not in person but online today and Rosie in our previous conversation you talked about some platforms that we might not even think about but like online gaming and Pinterest and other places so let's kind of dive into literally when you think uh like I have a 9-year-old son right he is religiously on Roblox right or fortnite and honestly Keenan when we think about platforms used for grooming really we just need to think of anything with an inbox with a DM anything that allows communication can be used for grooming or recruiting purposes um it is so normative for a middle or High School Age kid to be

[13:42]  online or be on social media and there be a regular person that they game with and then they begin chatting right and it starts out Innocent but you don't know if the other person on the other end is actually 16 or whether he is 56 and so social media is a prime place to groom and or recruit because you can hide be behind a facade that you've created and if you're um if you're good enough at it in complete honesty then you can create a a very believable story that that could have someone thinking they are dating someone their age who's sweet and kind and generous and here's the photos to prove it and you're none the wiser about who's on the opposite end and so social media while it can be great in a lot of ways it can be very dangerous when we're thinking about populations who are vulnerable who may not have oversight or in ad saying wait

[14:29]  a minute let me let me peruse through this and make sure everything is in alignment and this conversation is so important because in 2022 the surgeon and general came onto a national broadcast and said the biggest threat to the American society is not another viral pandemic but an epidemic of isolation and loneliness now when we talk about all the societal factors like things like catfishing and everything else and these online personas this is a really scary place to kind of be participating in if you're not aware of the threats that are out there I heard that a a really interesting an analogy on a podcast a couple weeks ago and the analogy was would you ever as a parent consider putting a window on your child's crib where anybody from the internet could come in show them any image talk to them speak with them in a private manner absolutely not well what about your daughter's bedroom window

[15:17]  would you get a window for Public Access that people could hop into well guess what that's exactly what these devices are we're not giving our kids access to the world we're giving our our uh the world access to our kids and that's scary it really is scary yeah and I just I have two children of my own two daughters and they're 22 and 18 and I think that that's where one of the stances that my husband and I took in raising them is that we've got to empower and educate our children in the realities we can't shy away and not have these uncomfortable conversations because even no matter how hard we try technology advances beyond what can keep up with and as a parent myself it's outgrown my capacity to

[16:05]  really understand like my kids at this age no more but I've also had very honest and hard vulnerable conversations with them from a very young age just because of the line of work that I'm in but I mean all of us need to be talking to our children about the realities of what is how do identify when somebody reaches out to you and tells you hey you look pretty oh you probably don't want to respond to that if if it's a stranger because what they do is they're casting a net to hundreds of women or hundreds of girls or children to see who will respond and then they'll take that category and keep fishing to get down to the two or three people that they can definitely engage and again cohar into a relationship and and and it's such it's a high it's such a high profitable

[16:52]  industry when you have one person that can work with you um it's it's an ongoing cycle so for sure Abby what do you think about and Rosie of course about the perveance since the pandemic of platforms like only fans right I've seen from my personal perspective as a man in this Society so many women who have flocked to this platform because it creates an opportunity for them to make money and there are actually agencies out here to do it that do exactly what you talked about Abby find somebody on social media hey you're incredibly pretty what if you just sent us pictures of yourself and we could manage your chat we could send out DMS we could get more people we'll split your Revenue this seems like a system that is baked for failure at the long-term Horizon what do you guys kind

[17:39]  of think about with all the prevailance of exactly what we're talking about here platforms like this that are so popular in society Rosie I'm gonna let you take this one because again like I said I'm outgrowing the age of this cool stuff it's funny because I was definitely gonna let you start um yeah but I think when we think only fans I mean it's not it's not not shocking when we live in a world that is so Pro the porn the porn industry right so only fans almost seems like a way for women to control it without the cameras and all of those things but I think the the larger question Keenan is why why as a society are we at a point where women are in a place where their body is the first thing up when we're thinking about quick ways to make money um why is it feet picture why is it body pictures why is it if you log on online and you

[18:26]  subscribe to my account that I'm going to allow you to see of me I think the larger question is how do we get here and why is it why is it socially acceptable for that to be a million dooll stream of income I mean it's not like women make $30 right like women become millionaires through platform such as only fans and that's because there is a demand for it there is a demand and I think we have to address why that's the first thing that's up like why the body is seen as a commodity but specifically the women's body I mean the prevalance right of pornography in today's world has tricked and skewed the mind of men to look at women very trans very transparently as transactional items exactly and that in itself is terrifying so how do we have

[19:13]  more important conversations about what masculinity really means right not putting women in vulnerable positions not taking advantage of people not looking at women as Expendable items that we literally just swipe our credit card for and you get your 3.99 subscription you get access to some of their most private intimate stuff I mean it's like we need to refundamental have the conversation at a foundational level and I'm just worried that when we let social media influencers have this conversation for us like you said Abby we have a whole generation of people who don't want to have that scary conversation one time but the impact on the rest of somebody's life is a digital footprint that lasts forever right but I also think it goes back to those vulnerabilities it goes back to the single parent home it goes back to Father father lessness it goes back to foster care right like if I don't have a

[20:02]  dad or a prevalent male figure and I've never been affirmed by a man well then when men come and say oh you're pretty you're gorgeous you are all of these things and you are feeding a void that has never been historically filled for me and so I think it goes back to these vulnerabilities it all starts there it starts in childhood and they shape us so much so that in a lot of ways they determine who we become but I think when we're thinking about social media and only fans we have to ask how many of these women belong to some of those vulnerable populations that we talked about 10 minutes ago and I think it's in that that we'll find some of those answers I'm thinking to myself how do you both stay so Vigilant and so present in showing up for others doesn't this seem like this work in itself is incredibly emotionally taxing I think about compassion fatigue I think about

[20:50]  the long-term Runway of showing up and being that safe space for so many people how do you guys balance the need to protect yourselves with boundaries but also help helping people in some of their most vulnerable moments honestly a lot of it for me comes with the people that I work with um you know we do draw strength off of each other because it's we we we we can help lift each other up when the other one's down um and I think there's an unstated uh uh support system um within this line of work to where you just you know the sacrifices that it takes on only on you personally but your families um but man when you can see the winds and you see the Redemption and that's one of the things that I love about our

[21:37]  Lane in this line of work is that being part of a restorative program um we get to see the hope and healing um that can come from Devastation and Trauma and so personally for me that gives me hope to not give up and to remain steadfast um but it also I I couldn't do this work without the support of our team and our staff um because when you do respond in crisis together um you really do create a a bond that is beyond just a normal Monday through Friday 9 to-5 job now that doesn't mean that sometimes I'm like man I just want to like my new goal is I want to um be a wheelchair pure at an airport because you can just be like

[22:24]  this nice happy F you know friendly face just get them to the next gate there aren't moments that I desire for something not as you know um taxing but at the end of the day uh the the Redemption and the hope that you see through the services that we provide and women uh I I'll show up tomorrow over and over again if it means one more for sure what about you Rosie for sure no I agree um honestly Keenan I don't think that I'm doing anything special when I think about uh what the scriptures call me to the Bible talks over 59 times about loving the least of these and mentions the Widow and the orphan and the fatherless so when I think about the demographic that we serve that's that we serve the least of these and so um I feel biblically compelled in one way to

[23:14]  step in and to love them well but also that's my story people stepped in for me in a very real way and um it's so easy for people to see who I am today and accredit that to choices that I made and all of these things when the reality is a a lot of this is a byproduct of people who love me well in some really hard seasons and said yes to me um and that's that's what we do we say yes not because we are great people who are just really kind and really compassionate but because the Lord bids us to but also because our women deserve it they have dignity and honor that I don't think their narratives can take from them and so really our job like Abby mentioned is to remind them of that it's to believe for you that you are enough until you can believe that for yourself once you do then you can convince the next woman that she is

[24:01]  enough um but I think more than anything the Bible compels me to and I think in doing so the Lord strengthens us with the the things we don't have to make it through those really really hard moments but like Abby said the good stories um there are some stories that keep you going because you got to see firsthand transformation yeah Abby if you were to go back let's say 5 years and have a private conversation with that version of Abby what advice would you give to her when she' be navigating the time to get to where we're at here today or anything that you would tell her to avoid to lean into what advice would you give her oh man Keenan that's a good question um I think if I could talk to myself five years

[24:52]  ago I would I think in my leadership growth journey I lived in a lot of here for a very long time that uh I had to figure it all out and know all the answers um and I think one of the greatest things I've learned in the last five years that I probably wish I would have known five sooner is surround yourself with people that are better and smarter than you um because it really will make your job easier um and so don't disqualify yourself because you don't have certain credentials or an education um personally I did not finish college um because of my before Jesus and after Jesus story um but man the people that I serve alongside of they literally are some of the most highs scholar people

[25:42]  and surrounding yourselves with people and not being intimidated by other people's strengths to build a well-rounded team um is something that I think is invaluable and uh don't don't shy away from that Rosie here's part of a question for you we talk about some of the vulnerabilities that these victims face in not having a supportive you know family not having structure feeling vulnerable having people come into their lives who give them a sense of belonging and a sense of hope that maybe they didn't experience before what about where we're at currently in society today with all of your experience right in the mental and Behavioral Health space one of the biggest crisises we're facing at a generational level is how women are viewing themselves because of

[26:30]  the lens how they see themselves on social media some statistics shared um in our little framework was in 2012 9% of girls had major depressive episodes in 2023 that number went from 9% up to 31% do you ever get worried about how these devices and the platforms that we spend so much time on are impacting our self-worth but also creating opportunities for people to become vulnerable what's kind of your two s spent much without question um I have a little girl right so when I'm thinking about all of that I'm thinking about the the reality of the world now and my daughter is five and I cringe at the thought of what it'll be like in 15 years when she's headed toward 20 um but the reality is social media like I mentioned is great for a lot of things

[27:16]  but then there are other things that are really difficult like when I think about women with the disordered eating a lot of things like that like take place or are the result of soci Med and a body dysmorphic disorder you're seeing all of these bodies on social media transparently speaking some that are not even real they're paid for but then that is how we view Beauty and then when we when we have people who say like oh she is the most beautiful woman because of her hip shape or her like all of these things it it concocts this idea that wait a minute if that is what beauty looks like but I don't look like that then what does that mean about me um but I also think about again those vulnerabilities if you don't have a dad in your ear who's reminding you of your worth and your identity and how

[28:02]  beautiful you are then why wouldn't you run to a world of social media and upload P pictures um more provocative or whatever for likes and comments because you were looking for that you need something to tell you hey you're enough and hey you're worth it and that's what social media does so much so that when we're not getting that we're we're either compelled to show more um or you you fall into this state of depression because it's like wait a minute well my friend got this and I didn't and then it's comparison and like all of these things that are not favorable but that's what happens when 90% of our time is spent on social media and it and involved in a world that is really not based in reality right it's not real you can get on social media and call yourself a lawyer and put Esquire behind

[28:50]  your name and people are none the wiser because well they said it um but that's the reality and so we tend to believe that everybody is an expert who as a like Well concocted story and we run with that so much so that when they tell us we're pretty we believe that and then when they say we're not we believe that as well but again that goes back to those vulnerabilities who knows you in real life who who is able to affirm you and speak into and debunk lies in real time um because those are the people that I want you to lean into those are the people who know you and who are able to affirm you in a way that like 2,000 people who' never met you in real life never can yeah we we live in a in a crazy time to think about how much energy we truly put into our digital world you know the average 18-year-old

[29:38]  today spends about 9 hours a day on their device on average I don't know how many people are actually getting 9 hours of sleep a day right and so this the digital world is becoming more real than our dream world and the way in which we kind of I would say curating and creating these masks for people to be able to dive into giving us acknowledgement and likes and admiration there has to be some sort of Disconnect that comes with that as well and recognizing deep down that all the pictures that I'm posting that are getting the most engagement have a filter on them or I'm airbrushing or putting my stuff in Photoshop it's just a really interesting time to think about the true power of authenticity and how much we need to lean back into it for sure yes amen amen for sure so um I also think and this is like a hard right term

[30:26]  but when we talk about just online access um I do think that that is one of the things that continues to fuel the demand because it's definitely at our fingertips um but I think it continues to increase because you know it is statistically proven that pornography is a true addiction and I think as a society we also need to move in a direction where it's not shame based um when somebody is struggling with that and allowing um an just a uh I don't know what I'm trying to say here where it's not shame based but allowing a lot more vulnerability and transparency um with people who struggle with that to come out and be open and honest about it because much like a drug you take a certain amount and that's not

[31:16]  good enough next time so it continues to expand and it's the same way in the porn industry as well like you start small but then all sudden that's not meeting the the the fix that you're looking for for and so you just continue to get deeper and deeper and that affects our line of work tremendously um it definitely feels the demand absolutely it's important for us to recognize as well that this is not some guy who creates all of these Platforms in his basement or her basement by themselves these are incredibly well-funded organizations that bring in some of the top Minds for you know Behavioral Science and addictive behaviors and everything else so when you think you're interacting with a platform you're actually interacting with a supercomputer that is then trained by a

[32:03]  whole bunch of incredibly smart people and so destigmatizing the shame of saying I started using this tool and now I just don't know how to get away from it is a community-based conversation that we need to come together around absolutely so here's a question for you guys as well Abby you said earlier today that you were teaching a class okay um I want to know if we could get really tactical from your guys' perspective about educating and teaching a big class right now if there are parents or concerned people in somebody's lives what are some of the taale red flags that we might see of someone's Behavior or they might be vulnerable what are the things that we should be aware of so we can get ahead of this curb before somebody who we truly care about gets taken advantage of I mean I some of the warning signs that I would um highlight

[32:53]  or gone from being very social and active um within Social Circles to uh becoming a little bit more withdrawn um so whether you're in the education system and you have a student that was in Hall a student last year and really thriving um but all a sudden this year they seem to be really struggling um can't stay awake at school those types of things that would be some uh warning signs and then also um you know women don't actually keep the money that they earn um while they're out working um but what they do get is some gifts in exchange from their traffickers and so if you see somebody that is from more of a poverished income family but yet she has some name brand designer um unit

[33:45]  accessories um and all of a sudden those things start to enhance that would also be something that would um be a a sign of it yeah Rosie do you have anything else yeah yeah I would also include um a young girl who is being isolated so let's say she's very social she has families and friends and then slowly she's dropping those friendships and she's not as open because one of the one of the things that a trafficker wants to do is to establish credibility themselves and isolate them from any other voices in their life that could be loud enough to catch what's happening and then step in and so they want isolation they want you to B that you're the only one they're the only one in the your world who is worthy of being

[34:32]  trusted they're the only one who loves you they're the only one who wants the best for you your mom is just mad because she's never had a relationship like this your sister is just jealous of you because you look better than her right so that they want to they want to get that young woman isolated they want her to feel like he's the only person who is for me he loves me he would never right um but then some of the other things may be a young woman who won't make eye contact or doesn't have her own oh I don't carry my own ID my boyfriend carries it for me like someone who doesn't have control of their own identifiers like things that would make you say huh you're 21 and you don't carry you know things that that's Taboo in it of itself but they want isolation they want to they want to manipulate you psychologically and a lot of people when having this conversation

[35:20]  one of the first things that I'm asked is why won't they just leave like why did she stay um but it's a much that's much more nuanced than what it appears when you consider psychological manipulation it's years and hours and days of repetitive repetitive thoughts and you you'll never make it without me and you need me and you are you're not good enough and you're ugly and you're not worthy and it said so much that at some point you begin to say wait a minute maybe they're right well maybe nobody does love me because if they did why why didn't they come and look for me and why didn't they and then you begin to question everything that you knew knew to be true about your world um and they've manipulated you seemingly to the point of no return and then everybody else has been pushed away so then you're like wait a minute I don't have a relationship with my mom or my sister

[36:06]  anymore because he did a great job at isolating me and so isolation a lack of eye contact like Abby said the young girl who has all of this designer but comes from a very impoverished family um but honestly Keenan the hard part is there really isn't a a well constructed list that's like oh it's right here because very rarely will Every Woman meet every one of those bullet points you have you may have some that only meet three and some where there are five and you may have others where that oh she acted that way but she isn't being trafficked and so honesty I think it's the art of knowing what it looks like and I think and this is probably true for Abby as well that we've seen it enough that where if where if and when we saw it we could identify it but it's not as cut and dry as it's these five things you know what I

[36:54]  mean yeah no I totally understand I mean there's there's so many nuances in the work that you guys do because when I'm you guys are talking here I'm thinking about all of just like the societal trends that we see as well right everybody on social media who's younger is often trying to get a bag and they might be spending all their money that they earn on a designer handbag absolutely and if they come from an impost family that's one indicator but it's like hey is this really what's going on or there are societal factors that are swirling here and it makes it so difficult to be able to kind of navigate now we've talked a little bit about the problems the challenges the vulnerabilities I want to talk a little bit about kind of the positive side of this the impact that you guys are making when it comes to what the future is looking like in the lives you guys are impacting on a daily basis Abby what gets you most excited about the future and the work that you guys are doing um

[37:43]  really The Hope and healing that comes through uh the women that come through our program um you know as I mentioned at the beginning uh we are a National Organization and have six locations across the United States um and so we are located um south of Houston and Texas GF Coast North Texas Las Vegas Chicago Kentucky and Pittsburgh um and currently have 10 homes opening or opened and operating and then in 2025 we're looking at opening two more um and so some of the things that I love that we get to do is that we do have a national impact and just because we're located in those six places does not mean we haven't served women we've received applic ations from 43 of our 50 states and have had over

[38:31]  250 partner agencies refer women to our program over the course of refuge and so truly the impact that refuge for women has on this nation is huge um and so when I hear impact numbers like that and the reach that we truly have we don't have to be located in a city to serve a woman um through our collaboration within the organization as well we can relocate women for safety reasons and so you might um make an outcry in the Dallas Fort Worth area but it's not safe for you to stay here so I know that I could send her to Vegas um to our Vegas location and know that she's going to receive the same quality of care the same process and proven um program outcome that we have and so for that to

[39:21]  maintain that standard of quality that we have to serve the women that we do and know that all of our location operate at that capacity um I I love it I love it so and you Rosie if we had to give a piece of advice from today for the next couple years imagine we time traveled into the future and we could look back on this present version of Rosie what advice would you give to yourself to navigate these upcoming years and the impact that you're going to make yeah I would um I will tell myself slow and steady this this line of work can often be tiresome because you we may not see results immediately but what I don't want to do is give up because um for this woman it takes n months for a light bulb to go off and another it takes two

[40:09]  years and so I would tell myself to um to stay hands to the plow and do the work and trust God to breathe the results but I am called to be faithful and I would say Steward well the season that you were in and don't rush to the next one there is much to be learned here um and I want to do this as unto the Lord and to the best for of the women that we serve and so that requires me to be diligent in it to become a student and an expert in it even so that I can serve women well but yeah slow and steady because it's so we live in a world okay what's next and what's next and it's like but what if you just focused on doing what you are currently doing well I love that well guys I have to say you know just hearing the firsthand perspectives of why this work is important and educating the audience

[40:56]  has been such a blessing here with you guys today being able to share this space with you guys and knowing that you having such a fundamental impact on individual lives that impact Generations is something that makes me in h incredibly happy to have you guys in the hard and hustle podcast part of the tradition that we have as we end our episode here is we have our previous guest who wanted to ask both of you a question so Abby you can go first and then Rosie you can go second what what does courage mean to you courage means to me courage is most of the battle um I mean I tell my kids all the time too 90% of the battle is just showing up and so being courageous to at least getting yourself to a point to show up even though it might be

[41:44]  overwhelming intimidating you don't know what it's going to look like most of the time it's it's better than what we have anticipated and so to me courage is showing up no matter what the circumstances is what the circumstance are without knowing what the outcome is going to be how about you Rosie yeah I would say courage for me is speaking truth to power it's being willing to say hard things to the necessary people and not being concerned about what that means for me it's standing 10 toes down on what I know to be true regardless of um yeah regardless of what that looks like or the the push back or um blackballing that may come to it or come with it but yeah I want to speak truth to power and say what needs to be said even if

[42:31]  that um doesn't show me in a favorable light well that is a beautiful place for us to be able to put the bow on today's episode once again for everybody who's been tuning in watching and listening Abby Rosie I can't thank you guys enough for being the true definition of heart and hustle thank you guys so much for coming on the show I really appreciate it thank you so much thanks for having us it's been great