Why Higher Ed Is Reinventing Its Service Model to Meet Evolving Student Expectations

[0:16]  We are back with another episode here on the Heart and Hustle Podcast. Andy, what's good, man? How you doing today?

[0:21]  Doing good, doing good. Got a little sun, but other than that, I'm I'm I'm fine.

[0:26]  Low sun, man. That's good. Got that vitamin D is what is right? Is that what the sun gives you? There you go. Enough of it, you would say, probably last you for the rest of the month.

[0:31]  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, I've got I've got plenty, I could give it out.

[0:36]  Yo, Andy, before we get started, man, I want to start with something a little different. What is something that someone may not know about you that you truly like? You just don't share it off?

[0:52]  man. the some things people don't know about me. I got my bachelor's degree in English, which they would know that, but what they would not know is that I got distinction in prose. and so poetry, creative writing, that was that was where I kind of leaned into when I was going through my

[1:08]  Were you ever that guy that went into the open mics and was doing some poetry or anything like that?

[1:13]  Not at all. Not at all. Not at all. Just written. Just written. I I was not a performer by any means. So, but that is what I gravitated towards was was the you know, how does a comma affect, you know, what is being said and or you know, if a semicolon's put in here, like what does that mean? so yeah, that's that's something a l a little different about me.

[1:33]  man. Was English your thing, like going in high school, were you just kind of into English class? Yeah.

[2:08]  yeah, love literature. you know, particularly American literature. you know, I my my favorite book of all time is Wuthering Heights. although that's not American literature. Wuthering Heights is is is my favorite. but Flannery O'Connor, you know, Tim O'Brien, A River Runs Through It, one of my favorite books of all time. and so yeah. love love literature. Shakespeare not so much. He's not he's not my guy. but but I just love stories. I think that's, you know, something that's gravitated w towards me, you know, throughout throughout my life is the ability to to see myself in different, you know, different stories, see see see life in different stories, particularly like a river runs through it was was one that that hit home in a lot of ways in terms of you know, it's it's symbolism of life and and what that means. So

[2:43]  You you you mentioned Shakespeare, not that the biggest fan of it either, but I was looking through some old things, and realized I had a certificate for Shakespeare festival that I did. And I'm like, who chose me to go on stage and do some Shakespeare? fun times though, man. Fun times. Were you a theater kid at all in school?

[3:15]  Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I was not. No. being being from a small town, we we didn't have a a a a big theater a big theater program. and so you know the stories that I found I I often found in in my English classes. And so I was fortunate to have you know, in in a small town I had a a teacher that had her doctorate, her had her PhD in English. and so that would that was not the norm and you know, really was able to to have a foundation built by someone who loved who loved literature as well and so you know, got my taste for it as a you know, as a freshman in in high school and it carried through. so yeah, Dr. Jacobson, she was she was phenomenal.

[3:48]  Man, and now you're in the higher ed spaces. Do you kind of go back and and, you know, say it's a little bit of her that kinda got you into the space of higher ed? How do you get into the space of higher ed? And if you could just mention the school that you're representing today.

[3:59]  Yeah, yeah. so currently work at Missouri Western State University, Mo West. you know, I think I think that was kind of my first foray into, you know, there was there was something out there past, you know, even a bachelor's. A bachelor's we were all pretty well aware of, like, hey, go go to college. but but that was the first foray into like, hey, there are there are doctors aside from those that that check up on you, you know, medically. out there. And so Dr. Jacobson was kind of that first that first taste of of higher education for me. And so you know, to be honest, it wasn't a career path of mine, you know. I had a lot of really amazing high school teachers and and that was kind of the goal going into college. when I went to to Ottawa University. It was okay, I'm gonna get my my secondary ed, you know, degree to teach English because I that's what I love. and so was gonna do that. and then as I got into it and was doing the practicums, I liked setting in a classroom and and interacting with students, but it was more so you know, the conversations that I was having with juniors and seniors in high school when I was doing my student teaching was, you know, what are you gonna do with your life? What are what's you know, what's your college search look like? You know, what schools are you looking at? What are you considering? What is it, you know, that you're you're thinking about? And and that was when I really started to to find my my footing and my passion for higher education was having those conversations with people that are about to make a big life decision. you know, and so I found you know, I went off the path a little bit. I went to law school for all of three weeks, and and realized I hated it. you know, I was I I sat there and instead of like thinking about

[4:53]  Yeah. Yeah. Hmm.

[5:48]  torts and contracts and and all of those things, I was like, what else could I be doing besides sitting here? and I f I realized very quickly that I was like, that's not a life that I want to do is like sitting there thinking about what else could I be doing. and so found myself in in higher ed very, very quickly after that, you know, in the adult and online setting working. and that's that's kind of how I I got my start. But it all started from you know being in a classroom and and having conversations with high school students.

[6:25]  Yeah. And did you ever become an English teacher?

[6:43]  I did not. I did my student teaching and I knew that I wasn't that that I didn't want to teach at that point. and so I never sat for the the exam. and and so never never went through with it, but I did all the student teaching, did the prep and everything like that. But but it before I, you know, took the the test to to get certified, I I'd kinda identified that it wasn't gonna be my path. And so I could go back But but I I'm I'm pretty comfortable where I'm at right now, so

[7:01]  So l let me just guess, you're one of those guys that got into higher ed and and never left, is that correct to say?

[7:08]  That is it. Yep. Once once I got my foot in, it's it's it's you love it. You love it or you hate it. That's that's kinda it. n

[7:16]  What did you love about it? What what was the thing that kept you in love?

[7:19]  You know I love the transformation that comes with with higher ed. and I love that it can be it can happen at any point, you know, it could be the first time they set foot on campus, things change. it could be their senior year, you know, they go through a a secondary ed program and that's what they're gonna do. And then they s set foot in a classroom and they have a conversation with, you know. one of the students that they're teaching and they decide they don't want to be a secondary ed teacher anymore. They don't want to be an English teacher anymore. They want to, you know, maybe help people find that path. it could be an adult that's, you know, working, you know, nights and they they want a better life for their family. And they get into an online class and they realize this is going to be something that that changes my life, my kids' life, you know. and so the the transformational experience that students have, that's what I love. I love that higher ed is that that opportunity for change. it's a change agent for for anyone and everyone that that interacts with it.

[8:28]  How did you know this this is where you wanted to be at? I mean, what was that moment that made you whether there's a story, someone you helped along the way that said, I I'm in what I should be doing?

[8:39]  Yeah. there's what I would say is there's a you know, every student that you interact with that that you get to see walk across the stage, like that's that's meaningful. but there are students that you interact with on a on a more intimate level in the sense that they you know, they they gravitate you towards you very, very early on in that that kind of process and they kind of keep coming back to you, even though you don't necessarily interact with them from an admission standpoint. past the time they get here. And so, from an admission standpoint, you know, you are you are helping students make a decision that that hopefully, you know, leads to them walking across a stage and and getting a job and you know, setting path or setting setting foot on a path that is different than maybe what they would have ever expected of themselves. And so

[8:39]  Mm.

[9:34]  You know, I can remember times where I you know, anytime I interact with a student, when I was an admissions counselor, I try to be really intentional, try to be really insightful and and serve as a guide. because wherever you're at, you you want to to help guide a student, whether it's at your institution or another institution. You want what's best for for a student. And I can remember writing some emails that, you know. I put a lot of thought into in in terms of what it meant for the student, what they were looking for, what their hopes were, what their dreams were, and and really framing what the college search was for them and how I thought, you know, Ottawa University or William Woods was was that that option for them, or Mo West at this point, what that means for them. and so the responses that you get, like that's th those are the times where you're like, yep, this is what I'm meant to be doing. you know, I can remember getting a a two page email. Like, and I said, you know, I I printed it off and and have it in my desk because it's like one of those where like this person realized, you know, all that you put into them and and chose the institution you were at because they believed you. They believed in in what

[9:34]  Yeah.

[10:59]  you know, you were positioning the university as and they entrusted you. And that's the thing, is it's it's all trust. you you have to you have to you have to tell them the truth or they it's not gonna it they're not gonna feel it.

[11:14]  Yeah. I think that's so true more now than ever, when there's so many options, not just school options, but career options, whether someone wants to be, you know, an influencer, whether someone's going to pick up a trade. I think being able to trust and just understand that you also feel seen and heard. You know, you you talk about curating those emails. How are we doing that nowadays? Like with AI, is it easier you would say? Is it much harder? Like where where do you rely on that?

[11:58]  Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. you know what I would say is there's you have to be very conscious of y the use of AI. and so there are a lot of entities that that that leverage AI and and there are good things about it. there are efficiencies and there are ways that you can interact with students in a way that really makes sense. and so what when we we talk about AI, particularly with our staff, is it's a tool. you should never just rely solely on it because i it misses context. There's context that doesn't happen in a system that you have to account for. you have to account for you know how a student feels. You have to account for bottlenecks that they may be facing that that a system can't quite pick up on, you know, if a student's struggling with finances, like a system's not going to pick up on that necessarily. and so, I mean, we leverage AI as most institutions do. And we have great partners that have have really listened to us. Capture Higher Ed is one that that we we use to to kind of help us identify students that are, you know, wanting to engage with us. and they provide pathways for us to to at least begin that initial engagement with a student and and interact with them in ways that we probably wouldn't have been able to prior. And definitely wouldn't have been able to prior. but then it's up to us. And we work with them on on okay, how do we engage them? What does the conversation look like? you know, what

[12:43]  Mm-hmm.

[13:28]  what should we be talking about based on behavior that we're seeing happen in our system on our website and and across different mediums to be able to really provide the student the information that they want, the the relationship that they want, as they as they kind of move through that admissions process.

[13:48]  That's cool. And is that done through like SMS email?

[13:51]  Yeah, absolutely. I mean you have to you have to communicate with with students where they're at. and so we still emphasize calling within our office because I I think that a call you may not call a student or get a hold of a student every time, but there may be that one time that that a call again provides you more information than maybe you wouldn't have gotten via email or via text. Sometimes you can you can pull information out that they're not necessarily comfortable putting in a text or comfortable putting in an email. so we yeah, we communicate call, email, text. you'll see social you know, interactions. There's a lot of new platforms out there that are that are social platforms that institutions are using to to interact with students. And so, you know, basically any medium that you can think of, you've you've got to engage with them where they're at.

[14:47]  Do you think that higher ed has really it looks like based off some of the things you're telling me, has really made strides. I think a lot of people may felt that they were behind at the times, but I mean, using some technology as you mentioned, do you feel where's higher ed today?

[14:47]  Mm-hmm. Yeah, I mean higher ed is in a space that I don't think I ever would have seen, you know, even fifteen years ago when I when I kind of embarked on this journey. it was calls, emails, and we were kind of getting into texting when I started fifteen years ago. and so when we talk about where higher ed is now, higher ed is in a space that is is completely different in terms of technology that's being used. It's definitely more what I would say business oriented in terms of how, you know, data is being tracked and leveraged to interact with institutions. And part of that is, you know, from the for profit boon that happened, you know, 20 years ago. you know, we talk about those institutions, the the University of Phoenix's and and institutions like those. you know, one thing that they do right is they do customer service right.

[14:47]  Yeah.

[15:59]  they they have to. that's that leads to the bottom line. And so I think that higher ed as a whole has has taken that has taken that to heart in that we're a service industry. And so we have to provide you know, we have to meet service level expectations when when interacting with students. And so what does that mean? it's ever changing. You know, each each generation, every five five years or so, there's a flip in what their expectations are. And so Higher ed is is becoming way more what I would say flexible in terms of how they how we interact with with students and how we service students. you know, it's not no longer it used to be th the thought that higher ed adapts slower than than everything else. The ones that are succeeding are the ones that are that are flipping the script, you know, as they need to, very, very quickly.

[16:33]  Yeah. And you mentioned speaking to the students and engaging with the students. Do you feel like it's also that we're having to engage with parents a little bit more nowadays as well? Like they're part of that process a little more?

[17:08]  For sure. You have to engage parents. and so whether that's, you know, email communication or mailers, mailers are still a thing. Parents still now we're getting kind of out of that that age where where parents expect mail. you know, if that's not, you know, now it's email for them. but but yeah, you have to engage parents because they're part of the decision making process. we're getting to the point where students such as myself or you know, or or students and I say students. parents such as myself grew up in an age where we went through the Great Recession of like two thousand and eight. And while we weren't necessarily impacted as as students at the time, you know, our parents were and so we we understand the impact that that debt had on them and and the financial, you know, burden that they maybe ba maybe took. And so people that are my age that now have kids maybe going through college or starting that process are way more aware and cognizant of, you know, financial implications of decisions made. And so they are gonna make sure that they can do what they need to to to set their s their students up, their children up, for success later in life. And so you have to be able to communicate with parents, particularly when it comes to to finances, because While value proposition across the student experience is important, you know, student affairs, academics, a lot of it it comes down to what is that return on the investment for my my student? and so you have to be able to position that and have have that conversation, whether it's by by email, mail, phone, whatever it is.

[18:54]  Yeah. Is your kids actually going through the process now? I can't even imagine Tree but I say I can imagine Tree kids old enough. Okay, okay, okay.

[19:08]  No, no, no, no, no. No, no, no. No. But but I know like some of you know, people that are that are my age have have kids that are getting ready to go through that process. I've got a I've got a ways in that space. but but I know people that are that are my age are just a little bit older that that they have that that happening and so, you know, we've we've talked about it just, you know, as friends. What does that look like? And you know, and so that's that's

[19:22]  God. And Andy, how does that make you f actually how does that make you feel when you think about friends that have kids going potentially to your college? Does that make you feel like you're behind the times? Did you do it right? Like

[19:37]  Yeah. No, I mean I think, you know, everyone has their own pace, you know, in in in life. And so, you know, I think it's awesome to see. you know, anytime I get a chance to to talk with you know, my friends that that have kids that are that are starting that process, you know, that's exciting to me. Again, it's it's a chance for someone to go find themselves. and I know that that's kind of you know, I've heard it that Well, college isn't necessarily to find yourself anymore. Where like, you know, even when I was going to school, it's go figure out what you want to do with your life. and and I, you know, I heard it the other day is that college isn't to find yourself anymore. And I was like, I understand that we're we're definitely becoming more like career focused, identifying what you want to do very, very early and not, but I still think there's something to be said about finding who you are as a person. Not necessarily what you want to do, but who you are in that in that college. you know, process in that college experience. And so anytime, you know, I I talk with family members that are going through that process or friends that are kind of going through that process, it's exciting. Like I just I just love that thought that someone's gonna get to it, you know, have an experience and and find who they are.

[20:12]  Yeah, I think especially I think you mentioned that you're from a small town, is that correct? So you think about someone like yourself that goes in now goes to big university, you're really finding out about the world, right? Your diversity, people from different walks of life, you know, there is that. And what n while and that may not be for everybody, I always say that leaving high school and then going to college, it's like you still kind of never leave that system because you still have people that care for you, that are rooting for you.

[20:47]  Yeah, yep, yep. Yeah. A hundred yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Right.

[21:23]  But when you do leave high school and you don't go to college, a lot of people just fall flat on their face because now they don't they don't have that person, that cheerleader, that person in their corner, the resources. So yeah, I definitely think that going to college allows you so much more and put you ahead of the game for those that may not go to college. Do you agree with that, some of those?

[21:42]  Yeah, I mean I think what I would say, you know, the studies have shown in terms of the impact on, you know, your your lifetime earnings, you know, what a what a degree does for you. but I think outside of just even we talk about earnings because trades are are are incredibly important in in our society and people can do really well financially in those spaces. And so I don't want to discredit people that don't go on to to college because I think there are ways and avenues and and I think colleges are becoming more aware that those avenues are important and so they're trying to provide some pathways for even those people to to then provide some credentialing at the higher education level at the second post secondary ed level. But I think there is something to be said in terms of you know you get a chance to to explore to to fail in a very supportive environment. where you're gonna have academic support, you're gonna have what I would deem student we it's student affairs support, but I would say life support in the in the sense that like if a student's struggling personally, if they're struggling mentally, like there are some kind of structures in place to make sure that students feel supported in in a college setting that maybe they wouldn't get elsewhere. and so I think there is something to be said about the college experience providing that, you know, really safe environment for students to to go through that exploration, maybe fail, and pick themselves up, you know, by the time that they graduate and now they feel really confident in who they are, what they want to do in life and and go out and and do those things.

[23:28]  You say fail twice in that combo. Is it a good thing or a bad thing you think?

[23:45]  I think I think everyone should experience failure. I don't want everyone to experience failure, but I don't you know, I think it's a it's it's okay to experience failure. I think through failure, we get a chance to learn. And I think that's you know, you hear that across, you know, across the world that that learning happens through through failure a lot of times. And so I think in in in a college setting, being able to fail and and knowing that that it there is opportunity to pick yourself up and and have people walk you through what that failure was, what it meant, what you know, why it happened, I think that's a that's a really unique setting that you don't necessarily get

[24:03]  Yeah. Mm-hmm.

[24:21]  jumping into the into the real world. and so I think failure can be, while it can be, you know, feel like a burden, feel awful, no one wants to fail. there are, you know, there's the silver lining of it and and you have to be willing to to see it, you know, outsiding and in. and and that's, you know, that's the beauty of it. So

[24:39]  Yeah. Yeah. I agree, man. I think it's such a mindset shift when we think about it. Like there's been plenty of times that I can imagine, Andy, you failed, I failed, and and the way that I look at it nowadays is like, okay, I failed, but what lesson am I learning through here? Right? Like what am I taking here out that's positive? 'Cause we can always dwell on that negative. But it's really anytime as you mentioned, you fail at anything, it's I mean, if we're playing basketball and you lose, okay, why did we lose? And and how do we get better the next time?

[24:58]  Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Right. Yep.

[25:17]  And I I luckily had a mentor that really taught me that at an early age when I was trying to close a cafe down. I was like 27 years old, but didn't want to close this cafe. Why? I thought I was failing, Andy. And he was like, There's people 20, 30 years older than you that have even tried this. You know, a lot of the times we put pressure on ourselves, but we're trying for the first time. We're not going to get it right and knock it out the park. But what we could do is that every single time that something happens, we can really step back and say, okay, what

[25:31]  Mm-hmm.

[25:45]  do I do? What do I take out of this so that I don't make the same mistake twice, three times? and and as you mentioned, college really provides you that provides you that safety net per se to to fail, to fail gracefully, to have people in your corner to say, Hey, yeah, you failed, no worries, man. Good job at it. Let me show you what you can do better. so that's that's pretty cool. Andy, what do you love to see change, man? You've been in this space for so long, you've seen changes, but can imagine there's still some changes that you want to see. What does that look like?

[26:59]  Yeah. Right. Yeah, I mean I think within a higher ed, I think when we talk about changes, you know, I think that we're we're s we're seeing this shift to to really focus in on on workforce development, which I think is it's kind of a necessity. We like we need to hone in and we need to to align ourselves with industry and we need to be able to to make sure that we're meeting the needs of our our communities, meeting the needs of the economy and and the nation in terms of, you know, kind of where we're we're looking to go. but I think the one piece that I would I would hope when we talk about changes is that that there's always that personal development component as as part of you know whatever curriculum or experience that that that students go through. you know that I sometimes feel like we're we're getting away. from that and we're saying, okay, what are the what do they want to do? We're gonna put them on that path and that's what that's what it is. and so I think for me, you know, I don't know that it's a it's a change that I would implement in higher ed. more so that that I hope we can hold on to that that piece, that there's that still that component of that personal development outside of just career development that that we maintain. because I think that It is one thing to to know your job, know what you do, know how to do it. And I think it's another to be able to know who you are as a person, know you know, how to interact with people, know how to communicate with people. and so that personal development side, making sure that that's, you know, a key component throughout a a student experience.

[28:14]  I love it. And I just as we wrap it up, what is just that one advice that someone's given you in your life that still to this day just kind of comes back?

[28:23]  you know, I think when we talk about ad advice, the the one that that always comes back to me because I am a I am a creature of habit, you know, I I can get very comfortable and and I can be be okay with with being where I'm at and and I continually have to remind myself to push myself. But as I transitioned away from my alma mater to to set foot on kind of a new path you know the the person that that is now my mentor but but who I was interviewing with and we had we'd kinda kinda had to come to a conversation about what a transition away would look like was you know look through the book of of Andy Otto and and s see if you know that that chapter has been written. Have you written your chapter? Have you kind of come to a conclusion? And is it time to move on to a next? and so you know, being really introspective in terms of you know where you're at in life and where you what you've done, come to an understanding of are okay, are you ready to push yourself to that to the onto the next chapter? You know, is it is it time? and so being self aware in in that space. And so my mentor Ted Blayshach, Dr. Ted Blayshak. really kind of pushed me to examine who I was, where I was at in my my career, and to to, you know, ha be self aware and knowing like, okay, I've kind of done what I what I can do. Now it now it's time for that next chapter.

[29:14]  Yeah, gotta spread your wings, man. Gotta get uncomfortable sometimes. Right. Sometimes we're just too comfortable. Andy, where can people find more information about the university? are you guys on social?

[30:05]  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yep. Yeah, absolutely. So you know, you can get on social, look up Mo West. and so we're all over, you know, Facebook, Instagram, TikTok, whatever other socials are out there. Missouri Western dot edu. you can find our our stuff there. and so we try to be really engaging and provide a lot of really good stories to you know provide insight into, you know, who we are, who our students are, who our faculty and staff are. Because again, stories are what you know, people resonate with. And so, our social team does a really, really good job. So so check us out on all those.

[30:57]  Andy, thank you so much for your time, my brother, for just the insights you've given us today as from a leader. someone that just fell in love with school and never left, to be quite frank. We just thank you for all the insights. My name is Ephraim. This is Andy. Make sure that you guys go ahead and pick them up on the socials, on the websites. We'll catch you on the next one. Latest.